If a running back can run, why can't a QB?

[jgite]

Vince can have a few designed run plays (like draws & naked bootlegs) We've seen Carr run the naked boot adequately and I think Vince could flourish in them especially in the redzone. Carr runs the play-action good, but Vince could be a legitimate threat to run or past. DC has done roll-out plays but they haven't always worked as planned to no fault of his own. (No TE threat and #2 receiver). In the Kubiak offense VY could give you around 200 yards passing and maybe about 50-75 yards on the ground give or take some yards because we will get sacked in the beginning.

Besides alot the routes and some of the personnel that Texas used came from Indy. If you are looking for him to make the 3 & 5 step drop look at his high school videos. He did more under-the-center than shotgun formations.

P.S. Carr would make an excellent QB in the spread if it was popular when he was at Fresno. He has the speed for it.

 

[Koolbrz]

Is somebody saying Carr is a "running QB"? That's silly. Carr runs mostly on screwed up plays and though he has a fair # of yards that's due largely to the number of screwed up plays not to any talent for running. He has none, make that NONE, of the skillset of a runner of any kind, either RB or running QB.

Okay, he is not a MV type runner, but you have to admit being chased or not the guy can run. Can you just imagine if he was a Vinny T. type QB. He would have been sacked more than 100 times this yr. Give the guy a lil bit of credit for something.

 

[TreWardTxn]

What makes Young so special as a runner (and why I believe he has the ability to be a great running threat in the NFL) is that in addition to being able to see (and feel) all the running lanes around him, he also has the strength to pull away from arm tackles, even from DEs. It is next to impossible that Young will have a 200 yard rushing game in the NFL (probably a few 100 yard ones in his first few years starting), but he doesn't have to in order to have success. Offense is about moving the ball, picking up first downs long enough to wait for a breakdown in the defense. What D coordinator in his right mind would leave Young unspyed in a 3rd down situation? That alone frees up an extra man against what would likely be zone coverage, giving an opportunity for even marginal players to get good matchups. This is part of VY's on the field ability to make players around him better. Vick's scrambling style is too often frenetic in nature; McNabb and Culpepper do not possess the sheer athleticism that Young does, who could actually play another NFL skill position. If these weapons come together with an understanding of coverages and consistent accurarcy, he would be the single hardest player to defend in the NFL...

BTW...Carr is above-averagely mobile for an NFL QB, I think he could execute Kubiak's system of bootlegs and rollouts fairly well. I just think his on the run throwing is hit and miss. I have seen some bullets and I have seen some WTFs...

 

[phan1]

I don't think having injuries will be that big of a worry with VY's scrambling skills. I've watched him play and he's pretty smart about not having to take the big hit if he doesn't have to (unlike Vick). He's just really good at knowing when to hold em and when to fold em in that reguard. He was a bit more reckless and got injured his Sophomore year, but I didn't see him take a big hit once his Junior year.

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

I don't think having injuries will be that big of a worry with VY's scrambling skills. I've watched him play and he's pretty smart about not having to take the big hit if he doesn't have to (unlike Vick). He's just really good at knowing when to hold em and when to fold em in that reguard. He was a bit more reckless and got injured his Sophomore year, but I didn't see him take a big hit once his Junior year.

Mack Brown said he has never sustained an injury while at UT. He may have taken a play or 2 off but he has never been injured.

 

[Nighthawk]

vince has a nba small forward build

Why is Vince carrying those three guys around?

 

[Nighthawk]

if mcnabb, mcnair, and culpepper are "running qb's", then Carr must be as well. none of them have designed runs, and rarely scramble.

I said he has none of the skillset of a runner, not that he didn't run. He did & does, badly, and to the detriment of the team.

 

[jerek]

size has a lot to do with injury.

i think u said u went to cal, so obviously you know about physics. so come on, you know a guy at 6'0 210 lbs body can't absorb as much force from a hit as a guy who is 6'5 235 lbs.

a big fast guy hitting a little fast guy is obviously going to spell doom for the little guy, he just can't match the force delivered.

a big fast guy hitting a guy just as big and fast is an even battle, and whoever used the better technique will usually come out on top.



and about vick having relatively the same build as vince...

vick has a perfect running back build

vince has a nba small forward build

Nice nod to physics. What sucks for you is that you completely ignored the implications of physics while trying to make your rapidly failing point.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/physics-of-football4.htm

All other things being equal (leg strength, etc.) a guy like Vince Young is not only easier to tackle than is Mike Vick, but because of his higher center of gravity and increased weight, will fall harder for it.

The difficulty of applying physics is of course that every tackle is inherently a little different in terms of force/impulse/point of impact etc. etc. etc. Past this simple counter argument that I have offered, there are so many things that happen on any given tackle, there is truly a "luck" factor or a "bad luck" factor. Gang tackles increase risk of injury, knees twist in strange directions, and on many injuries, it is simply a case of weird **** happening. I would be interested to know the ratio of "heavy" guys to "light" guys that have gotten hurt in the NFL. I suspect that the heavies are holding a substantial lead.

Now, as infantry pointed out, Vick has shown a propensity for "dumber" runs, setting himself up to take big shots and not learning how to get down or out of bounds. Now here is a factor that might contribute toward Vick being more injury prone.

If you are going to argue against Vince getting injured vs Vick, you might try a heaping helping of knowing-just-wtf-you're-talking-about. Don't bring physics into the picture unless you can back it up with more than a ridiculously half-*** one-liner. If I am wrong and you have some kind of substantial formulaic approach to this latest theory you are popping, then by all means, share with the class: I'd like to learn.

 

[infantrycak]

i think u said u went to cal, so obviously you know about physics. so come on, you know a guy at 6'0 210 lbs body can't absorb as much force from a hit as a guy who is 6'5 235 lbs.

Yup, went to Berkeley and let me check, yup that is a physics degree on the wall as a matter of fact. There are simply too many variables in the process of tackling to make the general statement you are trying to assert. Frankly, it is pretty obvious if you think about the majority of injuries each year and don't resort to a trite (not saying it doesn't have some facial appeal, but the empirical evidence doesn't meet the theory) recitation about weight, that most injuries are a result of unlucky falls/angles/impacts which weight clearly would not have made a difference on. Would Culpepper's knee last year or McGahee's knee a couple years ago not have blown out if they were 20 lbs heavier?--how about Wong last year or Sharper or Payne the year before in New Orleans? Very few guys come out of games going ooh my body just hurts--they come out as a result of a specific failure such as a knee, ankle, shoulder, etc.--think about what percentage of injuries are joints. That is getting hit at a bad angle, not a weight issue the vast majority of the time.

a big fast guy hitting a little fast guy is obviously going to spell doom for the little guy, he just can't match the force delivered.

Might want to send JJ Moses and Dante Hall a memo about this--they don't seem to know it. In any event, the issue isn't the smaller guy attempting to match the force delivered it is surviving it without injury. If the blow doesn't exceed the failure limit of some part on the players' body he is going to get up and keep playing.

and about vick having relatively the same build as vince...

They have almost exactly the same weight to height ratio. Compare with someone more thickly built like Donovan McNabb at 6' 2" 240 lbs--although that hasn't particularly protected him from injury.

 

[cuppacoffee]

My take is that those "running" QB's don't get the job done because they are not utilized to their talents. Take Vick for instance, they tried to make him a strictly west coast offensive QB, that worked horribly because that is not Vicks game and coaches have to much of an ego to adapt to a QB's style. I don't think that Kubiak and his staff are going to bring in years of experience that they've gathered to come to a new team, select a staff, and just wing it around a rookie talent whom they do not have experience in coaching and letting him do his thing. Mack actaully let that happen, but it's not going to happen too often in the NFL.

Ses is right...
a small quote from an article on profootball.com about the Falcons trading Vick.

"Apart from the huge cap hit that the Falcons would take by moving Vick now, they'd have trouble finding someone to give up significant value for him. As we hear it, a lot of teams regard him as a pain in the *** -- and as a guy who will only be successful if an offense is specifically designed to enhance his strengths, and to conceal his weaknesses."


Article On Vick

 

[stevo3883]

well i think we're talking about different kinds of injurys.

Im talking about impact injuries like bruises and breaks- thats what always happened to me playing football.

seems like yall are talking about twists and sprains. that never happened to me in football, but in wrestling... thats a whole other deal.


size matters a lot when it comes to bruises and impact injuries. when you're big you deliver the impact.

 

[stevo3883]

They have almost exactly the same weight to height ratio. Compare with someone more thickly built like Donovan McNabb at 6' 2" 240 lbs--although that hasn't particularly protected him from injury.

meh as someone that wrestled their whole life, I can tell you height/weight ratio might be the worst possible way to measure someone.

bone density, muscle mass, any fat- you can see two people the same height and weight, with totally different builds. this is obvious with vick and vy.

 

[thunderkyss]

Might want to send JJ Moses and Dante Hall a memo about this--they don't seem to know it. In any event, the issue isn't the smaller guy attempting to match the force delivered it is surviving it without injury. If the blow doesn't exceed the failure limit of some part on the players' body he is going to get up and keep playing.

Nio matter how many times I see it, I just can't accept it. those guys, and Warrick Dunn...... man I'm soooo worried about them taking a real lick.... honestly.. I don't know how they do what they do.... it baffles me.

 

[infantrycak]

bone density, muscle mass, any fat- you can see two people the same height and weight, with totally different builds. this is obvious with vick and vy.

I agree with the first statement, but disagree with the 2nd. Young and Vick both appear very thin and similar for their heights IMO. Roethlisberger is the same height as VY and only 8 lbs heavier but looks very different. IMO VY looks like you proportionately increased everything on Vick while Roeth looks nothing like that. Doesn't mean I think VY is in any way similar as a runner to Vick. JMO, but VY is a whole lot closer to Vick in body type (although larger obviously) than he is to McNabb, Culpepper or Roethlisberger.

 

[beerlover]

I agree with the first statement, but disagree with the 2nd. Young and Vick both appear very thin and similar for their heights IMO. Roethlisberger is the same height as VY and only 8 lbs heavier but looks very different. IMO VY looks like you proportionately increased everything on Vick while Roeth looks nothing like that. Doesn't mean I think VY is in any way similar as a runner to Vick. JMO, but VY is a whole lot closer to Vick in body type (although larger obviously) than he is to McNabb, Culpepper or Roethlisberger.

don't forget to include footspeed too, that VY is more similar to Vick except it just takes Vick twice as many steps to travel the same distance

 

[CoastalTexan]

Even if he doesnt get injured (everyone does that runs alot). He will get shaken up and those bumps and bruises will distract him from his main job. Passing the ball to the open guy and being the brain of the offense. If your shaken up by a hit from a Sean Taylor or Roy Williams your not doin your primary job. Kinda like a WR who can run really fast but doesnt have the best of hands cough:bradford:cough. I hope that made sense.

 

[utahmark]

Domanick Davis, Fred Taylor, and Chris Brown spent a combined 23 weeks on the injury report last season. Mike Anderson and Tatum Bell spent a combined 8 weeks on the injury report last season. It's pretty simple. The more you get hit as a runner, the higher the injury risk. If you take the risk, you better be willing to accept the consequences and have a backup plan in place in case the risk becomes reality. "In general," RBs are able to be replaced more easily with less net effect to the overall team performance - just by sheer numbers and depth on the roster - than a star QB

tell me again why we are drafting a rb with the overall #1 pick?

 

[tulexan]

Because he is the consensus best player in the draft and the best running back prospect since Barry Sanders or Marshall Faulk.

 

[Frills]

tell me again why we are drafting a rb with the overall #1 pick?

DD won't be getting hit as much in a RBBC set up, and when he does go down you have a backup option.

It also gives some versatility in schemes as well.

Course if we were to draft VY, he either be holding a clipboard, or lines up as a WR at least 4-5 plays a game.

 

[swtbound07]

Because he is the consensus best player in the draft and the best running back prospect since Barry Sanders or Marshall Faulk.

Come on now...i was willing to stay out of it until you say consensus...there is most definitely not a consensus, otherwise 90 percent of the threads on this board wouldnt exist...we would have came up with a reggie bush theme song by now.

 

[Bubbajwp]

Come on now...i was willing to stay out of it until you say consensus...there is most definitely not a consensus, otherwise 90 percent of the threads on this board wouldnt exist...we would have came up with a reggie bush theme song by now.

Thats because were in TEXAS.

 

[swtbound07]

Thats because were in TEXAS.

Actually my friend, i live in clearwater florida. Next reason?

 

[infantrycak]

Come on now...i was willing to stay out of it until you say consensus...there is most definitely not a consensus, otherwise 90 percent of the threads on this board wouldnt exist...we would have came up with a reggie bush theme song by now.

Got any sources other than this MB? Honest question. I have only seen 1 or 2 mock drafts which do not have the Texans taking Bush and only 1 or 2 who have Young being taken as the 1st QB. With hundreds of mock drafts around, that seems like a consensus. Doesn't mean the consensus is right, but it is a consensus. Seriously, you have to admit that other than on this MB, the vast majority of pundits whether right or wrong in their judgment have Bush going to the Texans.

 

[Koolbrz]

Why is Vince carrying those three guys around?

Can you imagine if he was being held up like this by a couple of defensive backs and then here comes Roy Williams or B. Dawkins or maybe a hard hitting LB. Not a good thing for VY. We are talkin about, see you next yr buddy. Them knees have targets on them. Can you not see them?

 

[thunderkyss]

All other things being equal (leg strength, etc.) a guy like Vince Young is not only easier to tackle than is Mike Vick, but because of his higher center of gravity and increased weight, will fall harder for it.

The fact is, that Vince runs darn near straight up. Vick, and Running backs don't. They run low to the ground, getting themselves ready to win in the leverage battle. They curl up in a little ball as they run, always bracing themselves for the next hit. Their thighs are about the size of beer Kegs, unlike those corn dogs Vince runs on.......

All that being said, The first time I saw Donavan and Dante play, I was amazed at how DBs and Linebakers couldn't bring them down. Corners bounce off those guys, and they appear to barely have noticed.

That being said, they, along with McNair, are always playing hurt. Always have nagging injuries, and always coming up short.

I would not be so stupid to design plays for Vick to run. other than naked bootlegs and QB sneaks. But I wouldn't keep him in the pocket either.

Let Vince Young play in Denver for a couple of years, and they will win a SuperBowl. They have the perfect system for him.

Now all you haters....... don't get too upset that I said Vince will win the SuperBowl in two years...... it's simply speculation on my part, and nothing more. Don't blow it out of proportion.

 

[thunderkyss]

Can you imagine if he was being held up like this by a couple of defensive backs and then here comes Roy Williams or B. Dawkins or maybe a hard hitting LB. Not a good thing for VY. We are talkin about, see you next yr buddy. Them knees have targets on them. Can you not see them?

But big ole solid Reggie Bush doesn't have to worry about this right??
I know he's fast, and most teams don't have someone who can catch him from behind..... but he'll start every play infront of the defense, and he'll have to find his way around them.

 

[TexansTrueFan]

cause a QB gets drafted mainly for the purpose of his arm, the legs are a bonus. i say pass before running. UNLESS you are M. Vick

 

[swtbound07]

Got any sources other than this MB? Honest question. I have only seen 1 or 2 mock drafts which do not have the Texans taking Bush and only 1 or 2 who have Young being taken as the 1st QB. With hundreds of mock drafts around, that seems like a consensus. Doesn't mean the consensus is right, but it is a consensus. Seriously, you have to admit that other than on this MB, the vast majority of pundits whether right or wrong in their judgment have Bush going to the Texans.

thats not what i was saying....he said that bush was the consensus best player in this draft...im not debating that 90ish percent of the mocks have him coming here...im just saying that open and shut declaring him the best prospect is wrong...im sure you can find people who question his durability, size, etc... so thats where my arguement was coming from

 

[infantrycak]

thats not what i was saying....he said that bush was the consensus best player in this draft...im not debating that 90ish percent of the mocks have him coming here...im just saying that open and shut declaring him the best prospect is wrong...im sure you can find people who question his durability, size, etc... so thats where my arguement was coming from

Well, slightly different but same result. Even on top prospect lists rather than mocks, other than this MB the majority of sites I have seen list Bush as the best prospect. Once again, that doesn't mean he actually is, but right now it seems to me Bush is the consensus #1 prospect.

 

[Bubbajwp]

Well, slightly different but same result. Even on top prospect lists rather than mocks, other than this MB the majority of sites I have seen list Bush as the best prospect. Once again, that doesn't mean he actually is, but right now it seems to me Bush is the consensus #1 prospect.

Every were except Texas.

 

[Koolbrz]

But big ole solid Reggie Bush doesn't have to worry about this right??
I know he's fast, and most teams don't have someone who can catch him from behind..... but he'll start every play infront of the defense, and he'll have to find his way around them.

I don't think RB is going to actually try and drag 3 guys around the field, besides if we can upgrade our o-line he should be able to get into the secondary. Maybe not all the time, but he will get into the secondary and when he does look out. Oh, by the way, Bush is only 5'11'' and should be able to get alot lower than VY before getting hit.