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Houston Texans Player Contracts

MorKnolle

MorKnolle

All Pro
Coach C, cadahnic, and I will be collaborating on a couple of posts over the next few weeks about what the Texans should do over the offseason. We'll start with just the contract values for all of our current players next year and the cap hit we would take for trading or cutting them. I warn you this post is quite long, but very informative for those of you who want a thorough understanding of the offseason possibilties for our team.

QBs
David Carr.............$7,256,160 to keep, $6,018,480 if cut/traded, 26 years old, signed thru 2008: Keep him, he is the franchise QB for now.
Tony Banks...........$1,256,160 to keep, $406,160 if cut/traded, 32 years old, signed thru 2006: I think we would cut him and maybe look for a cheaper veteran.
Dave Ragone.........Restricted Free Agent, 26 years old: I have to believe we will sign him to a one-year tender, no one will make a qualifying offer.
RBs
Domanick Davis......$3,806,160 to keep, $8,424,640 if cut/traded, 25 years old, signed thru 2009: Whether people like it or not we've signe him as our franchise RB.
Moran Norris..........$866,160 to keep, $412,320 if cut/traded, 27 years old, signed thru 2007: Keep him, I don't usually like spending that much on a FB but he's young and pretty good.
Jonathan Wells.......Unrestricted Free Agent, 26 years old: Keep him, he's a decent big, short-yardage back and a great special teams player, only made $662,160 this year so we should be able to sign him for a similar amount.
Tony Hollings.........$699,410 to keep, $239,410 if cut/traded, 24 years old, signed thru 2006: Not sure why we drafted him but he's hardly played, not even on special teams, and isn't worth keeping around. He's not earning much but won't cost much to cut and the roster spot could be used better elsewhere.
Vernand Morencey..$505,160 to keep, $390,320 if cut/traded, 25 years old, signed thru 2007: Keep him, a decent RB as a rookie and decent on special teams when used, if nothing else keep him thru his rookie contract and maybe get an additional draft pick as a restricted free agent in a couple years.
WRs
Andre Johnson.......$7,383,104 to keep, $7,149,312 if cut/traded, 24 years old, signed thru 2008: Keep him, he will be a super star if used properly.
Corey Bradford.......Unrestricted Free Agent, 29 years old: By all means please do not resign him.
Jabar Gaffney........Unrestricted Free Agent, 25 years old: I hope we keep him, he hasn't put up great numbers and isn't real fast, but he catches almost everything thrown near him and could do much better with a new offensive system. He may be looking to go somewhere else though and I'm not sure I could blame him.
Derick Armstrong....Restricted Free Agent, 26 years old: I'm not sure on him, he has great hands but isn't real fast and unlike Gaffney hasn't shown the ability to consistently get open, although he hasn't been used very much either. Since he is a restricted free agent I'd sign him to a one-year tender and hope the new offensive coach can do something with him.
Jerome Mathis.......$428,160 to keep, $236,320 if cut/traded, 22 years old, signed thru 2007: No reason to consider not keeping him, has been great on special teams and is developing as a WR. Hopefully a new coaching group will continue to develop him and use him more on offense.
TEs
Mark Bruener.........$1,014,493 to keep, $139,493 if cut/traded, 33 years old, signed thru 2006: He is getting older and slower, but he is still one of the best blocking TEs in the NFL and has become a team leader. Economics says it would be good to cut him, but without a clear replacement as the main TE I would tend to keep him another year when his contract runs out.
Bennie Joppru........$874,910 to keep, $414,910 if cut/traded, signed thru 2006: I say give him one more chance. We spent the draft pick on him and have heard how good he was supposed to be, and since it's the last year on his contract and it doesn't save much to cut him, give him one more shot at becoming our main pass-cathing TE.
Marcellus Rivers.....Unrestricted Free Agent, 27 years old; I think he has started to look better as a TE and could be a decent blocking/receiving TE for the future, so I would be inclined to sign him to a one or two year deal in case Joppru doesn't come thru again next year.
Matt Murphy.........Restricted Free Agent, 25 years old: Haven't seen much out of him, has a body like Bruener (bigger actually) and seems more athletic, haven't gotten an indication of his catching ability yet, so I'd probably sign him to a one-year tender and see what he can do with a new coaching staff.
OL
Steve McKinney.....$4,706,160 to keep, $806,160 if cut/traded, 30 years old, signed thru 2006: He hasn't looked very good this year and I can't see us paying an extra $4 million to keep him around another year.
Zach Wiegert........$4,206,160 to keep, $1,412,320 if cut/traded, 33 years old, signed thru 2007: He is still a pretty good OG and even OT when healthy, I would like to see him stick around one more year at OG and by then we should have a capable replacement, and he's relatively expensive to cut this year.
Todd Wade...........$5,172,827 to keep, $6,691,308 if cut/traded, 29 years old, signed thru 2009: Not sure why we gave him so much money, but that's what we've done with our FAs. I don't like him as a RT anymore and I'm not sure he can adjust real well to OG, but he is way too expensive to cut this year and probably even next year. Hopefully we draft Winston to play RT and Wade can adjust to OG.
Chester Pitts.........$3,180,000 to keep, $9,700,000 if cut/traded, 26 years old, signed thru 2009: He has looked much better the second half of the year as a LT, and is definitely staying on the team. As I said with Wade, I'd like to see us draft Winston to play RT, and maybe switch Winston and Pitts at some point later in the year or in 2007.
Victor Riley...........Unrestricted Free Agent, 31 years old: Not sure what we were thinking bringing him here to play OT, especially LT. I can't see him possibly staying for next year.
Todd Washington...$842,827 to keep, $172,827 if cut/traded, 29 years old, signed thru 2006: He's been a decent backup and can play any of the interior positions and has a pretty small cap count, so I say keep him thru the end his contract next year and reevaluate him then.
Milford Brown........Restricted Free Agent, 25 years old: He has played pretty well this year and is also a pretty versatile, sign him to a one-year tender and see how the line looks at the end of next year.
Fred Weary..........$694,360 to keep, $149,360 if cut/traded, 28 years old, signed thru 2006: Hasn't really done anything yet, not sure if they'll cut him or keep him for the last year on his contract. He likely won't contribute so I'd cut him depending on how many OL we can pick up in the draft.
Seth Wand...........Restricted Free Agent, 26 years old: I haven't seen much good out of him but he hasn't had much of a chance this year, sign him to a one-year tender and see how he does with new coaches. He could play RT but I like Pitts much better as the LT.
Bryan Pittman.......Restricted Free Agent, 28 years old: Been a pretty good long-snapper, so I'd sign the one year tender and probably sign him long-term sometime next year. He only got paid $386,160 this year anyways so he won't take up much money.
Drew Hodgdon........$358,127 to keep, $96,254 if cut/traded, 24 years old, signed thru 2007: He's been pretty impressive as a rookie. He has been a solid pass blocker although not a great run blocker. Definitely keep him and let him continue to develop with a better coaching staff.
 
DL
Gary Walker...........$5,839,493 to keep, $7,357,972 if cut/traded, 32 years old, signed thru 2009: Not sure why he got the length of contract and especially the dollar amount. He's played pretty well this year but the past few years have been disappointing, and although he's a leader on the team I don't think he is worth $5.8 million, however taking a $7.36 million hit to cut or trade him would also not be good. Maybe after next year the cap hit will be low enough or he'll just retire on his own, but he's definitely not worth the $5.8 million.
Travis Johnson.......$1,500,000 to keep, $4,760,640 if cut/traded, 23 years old, signed thru 2009: Obviously not looking to get rid of him after one year and the economics of that are not feasible. Would like to see a little more of him although I haven't been overly impressed so far, and if we switch to a 4-3 next year we'll have an abundance of DT since none of our current linemen could play a 4-3 DE.
Robaire Smith.........$4,797,827 to keep, $5,591,308 if cut/traded, 28 years old, signed thru 2009: I think he's had a pretty good year, not sure if it's worth $4.8 million for next year but considering it would cost us more to get rid of him and he's still pretty young and probably our best DL I keep him.
Seth Payne............$3,931,160 to keep, $3,393,480 if cut/traded, 30 years old, signed thru 2008; He's also played pretty well most of the year, although he is also getting a little old. Likewise I'm not sure he's worth $3.9 million but the $3.4 million to cut him will likely ensure one more year on our roster.
Jerry DeLoach.........$953,660 to keep, $580,980 if cut/traded, 28 years old, signed thru 2008: Has barely been active at all this year, and with all the depth and money being spent on DL already I doubt he stays, especially if we switch to a 4-3.
Junior Ioane...........$646,160 to keep, $651,160 if cut/traded, 28 years old, signed thru 2007: He's been a functional DL and is pretty cheap, plus it costs us more to cut him than keep him, so he stays, for next year anyways.
LB
Kailee Wong...........$3,171,160 to keep, $4,684,640 if cut/traded, 29 years old, signed thru 2009: Still a solid LB and definitely a defensive leader and not too old yet. Keep him, especially considering the high cost of getting rid of him.
Morlon Greenwood...$3,966,160 to keep, $5,624,640 if cut/traded, 27 years old, signed thru 2009: Not sure why he got the contract he did when better LB were out there and went for the same amount. I'm not impressed with him as he doesn't tackle very well and is the size of a SS while not being very fast. He definitely is not worth his $4 million in my mind but at the same time the $5.6 million hit to axe him this early is not worth it either, so he stays for a year or two.
Jason Babin............$1,325,670 to keep, $2,966,668 if cut/traded, 25 years old, signed thru 2009: Not sure how good he will end up being, hasn't been great and has lost his starting spot. He is a decent tackler and I think would make a pretty good DE in a 4-3 if we switch to that next year, either way economics says we keep him for at least another year.
DaShon Polk...........Unrestricted Free Agent, 28 years old: Nothing great but he has been a solid replacement for Wong and a decent on-field leader. He only made $696,160 this year so if we could keep him for about that much I say do it, but at some point we have to get these younger, more expensive guys on the field and earning their contracts.
Troy Evans............Restricted Free Agent, 28 years old: Been a decent special teams player and ok replacement LB, maybe sign a one-year tender but with all the people we already have at LB not sure if he stays.
Antwan Peek..........Restricted Free Agent, 26 years old: I like him a lot, he's only started one year and had some penalty problems, but I definitely like his energy and intensity. Sign him to a one-year tender and see what new coaches can do with him before making a long-term decision.
Shantee Orr...........Restricted Free Agent, 24 years old: Similar to Peek, he's a high energy guy that I like. I don't think he has great long-term potential, but sign him to a one-year tender and see what we can accomplish with them next year.
Charlie Anderson.....$407,827 to keep, $22,827 if cut/traded, 24 years old, signed thru 2006: I have liked what little I've seen of him and he's not costing much. I wish our higher paid LBs were the ones that were playing hard and trying to earn their contracts. He is going into his final contract year but with all the money going to our other LBs I'm not sure he stays after his contract is out next year.
DB
Dunta Robinson.......$2,121,548 to keep, $5,134,644 if cut/traded, 23 years old, signed thru 2008: Not even a question here, he is the future of our defense.
Marcus Coleman......$3,041,160 to keep, $2,512,320 if cut/traded, 31 years old, signed thru 2007: Has looked horrible this year, even with a $2.5 million penalty I can't see him staying next year unless for some reason we can't get another S and they start Brown and Earl, but still that's alot of money to ride the bench. I hope to see Brown and Earl together at S for the rest of the year and may get that wish after his deactivation this last weekend. Don't see how he'll stay though after his performance this year.
Demarcus Faggins....$1,281,160 to keep, $1,143,480 if cut/traded, 26 years old, signed thru 2008: He isn't very athletic, but he sticks with his man pretty well most of the time if not challenged athletically. He would be a decent nickel or dime back and it doesn't save us much to cut him, so I say keep him and hope we have a better 2nd CB to start over him.
Jason Simmons........$776,160 to keep, $212,320 if cut/traded, 29 years old, signed thru 2007: He is not afraid to hit, although he is small for a S and probably not fast enough to play CB. He provides depth, good special teams play, and that fearless intensity that a defense should possess, but I'm not sure about his value to the team, especially if we draft some DBs like I think we should.
Lewis Sanders.........$751,160 to keep, $206,160 if cut/traded, 27 years old, signed thru 2006: Been a decent backup and nickel and alright as a starter, like Faggins not real athletic but he sticks with his man relatively well, plus he'll actually tackle people. I think he stays thru the end of his contract next year but will likely/hopefully be replaced by a more capable guy next year.
Philip Buchanon.......$806,160 to keep, $6,160 if cut/traded, 25 years old, signed thru 2006: He has been disappointing especially considering what we gave up to get him, but he only has one year left and I don't think you can cut someone with his athleticism, so I say keep him for the last year of his contract and see if better coaches and hopefully more pressure on opposing QBs can improve his play, if not don't resign him after next year.
Ramon Walker.........Unrestricted Free Agent, 26 years old: Have hardly seen him at all, I doubt we'll resign him.
Jason Bell...............Unrestricted Free Agent, 27 years old: Pretty good on special teams, rarely seen him on defense. I like his tackling and hitting abilities and only cost $486,160 this year so I would like to see him come back next year for depth and special teams if not to play on defense too.
Glenn Earl...............$487,660 to keep, $102,660 if cut/traded, 24 years old, signed thru 2006: He has looked pretty good and is still young, definitely keep thru the end of his rookie contract next year. I'd like to see him and Brown play together for the rest of the year and see how they can do together before deciding whether or not to draft a safety in the draft.
C.C. Brown.............$341,260 to keep, $62,520 if cut/traded, 22 years old, signed thru 2007: Same impression as Earl, decent tackler and has a nose for the ball although not real good in coverage, but he is a rookie 6th round pick. Hopefully he and Earl will get to play together the rest of the year so we can evaluate if they can be our long-term solutions back there, but no reason to give up on him yet.
Chris McKenzie........No contract info on him since he recently moved up from practice squad, but he's played pretty well for that one game and is only 23 years old, so if he keeps it up look for him to keep a spot on next year's roster.
K/P
Kris Brown..............$1,586,160 to keep, $1,544,640 if cut/traded, signed thru 2009: I'm don't like spending this much on a kicker unless they're very special and I don't think he's really worth it, but at the same time I don't like losing $1.5 million to cut a kicker either. He's functional so he stays.
Chad Stanley..........$826,160 to keep, $156,160 if cut/traded, signed thru 2006: Likewise a tad expensive and not a real strong leg, albeit decent at shorter pooch kicks. Likely will stay thru the end of his current contract and maybe longer, although either way our punter is about the last thing that we need to lose sleep over.

Well, that's the contract status for the players on our team. There are several people that I'd like to see hit the road, but unfortunately many of them would cost too much to cut or trade so we're likely roped in for a year or more on many of them. I don't know why we paid our DL and LB so much money for so many years, but that is really tying up a lot of money on some aging and some underperforming players that we really can't get rid of for at least a year, unless we end up way under the cap and can afford to drop one each year. Anyways, I thought I'd throw that out there so everyone can see how much all our guys are costing us to stay on the team or to not be on the team so everyone can get a better idea if their desires for roster changes are economically feasible. Look for more out of myself, cadahnic, and coach c about our impending offseason, we will likely be corroborating on a similar post about other available free agents later this week then on college players/draft later as the seasons are winding down.
 
I would like to point out that Mork has done most of the work on this one and it is an excellent job. It is what I would expect out of him though.

August 23 does it produce anything other than perfection.
 
Man, great post. :thumbup

That's a lot of information to digest in one sitting. I'll have to print this and bookmark it for further review.
 
banks, hollings, mckinney, weary, riley, deloach, & coleman are the only players you've cut on that list. it's my opinion that you're being overly forgiving in the belief that coaching can make lemonade out of many players. guys such as weigert, ioane, evans, anderson, bell, rivers, & washington should be on their way out in addition to the ones you listed ... along with possibly a few others getting dumped during training camp (simmons, sanders, ragone, morency). our roster will balloon to over 100 during the offseason and i find it hard to believe that these guys all cant be replaced in that time. the only noticable hit is weigert, but saving the 3mil would be more than cover the little dents from the other players listed.

good info. what i'd like to see is what our projected totals would look like with these guys removed from next season's cap and what kind of room we'd have to play with. this in an effort to make guesstimates as to how much space would be available for 1st or 2nd tier FA's and draft picks (if that was already an area for later posts, thanks ahead of time). also, doesnt the salary cap generally increase by about 5% each year? again, good stuff there.
 
Scooter said:
banks, hollings, mckinney, weary, riley, deloach, & coleman are the only players you've cut on that list. it's my opinion that you're being overly forgiving in the belief that coaching can make lemonade out of many players. guys such as weigert, ioane, evans, anderson, bell, rivers, & washington should be on their way out in addition to the ones you listed ... along with possibly a few others getting dumped during training camp (simmons, sanders, ragone, morency). our roster will balloon to over 100 during the offseason and i find it hard to believe that these guys all cant be replaced in that time. the only noticable hit is weigert, but saving the 3mil would be more than cover the little dents from the other players listed.

good info. what i'd like to see is what our projected totals would look like with these guys removed from next season's cap and what kind of room we'd have to play with. this in an effort to make guesstimates as to how much space would be available for 1st or 2nd tier FA's and draft picks (if that was already an area for later posts, thanks ahead of time). also, doesnt the salary cap generally increase by about 5% each year? again, good stuff there.
Click to expand...

A factor in the decision of who/how many get cut will be the status of Casserly. If Casserly stays, expect fewer cuts. If he goes, expect more. The new broom sweeps clean.
 
MorKnolle said:
QBs
David Carr.............$7,256,160 to keep, $6,018,480 if cut/traded, 26 years old, signed thru 2008: Keep him, he is the franchise QB for now.

Domanick Davis......$3,806,160 to keep, $8,424,640 if cut/traded, 25 years old, signed thru 2009: Whether people like it or not we've signe him as our franchise RB.
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Very good job. Couple of comments/questions. First, on Carr it looks like you are assuming they exercise the 3 year option and then are stating the cost to cut/trade--is that correct? If they don't exercise either of the options, Carr is a UFA and will walk away at no cost whatsoever.

On DD, the hit to trade/cut him varies over time. So far he has only received $5.5 mil of the guaranteed money under his contract and $1.117 has already been amortized on the cap. Until the Texans have to pay the other $3 mil in bonus money, it will not be added to the cost of trading/cutting him which currently is about $4.4 mil.
 
Scooter said:
bit's my opinion that you're being overly forgiving in the belief that coaching can make lemonade out of many players. guys such as weigert, ioane, evans, anderson, bell, rivers, & washington should be on their way out in addition to the ones you listed ... along with possibly a few others getting dumped during training camp (simmons, sanders, ragone, morency).
Click to expand...

IMO you are being overly optimistic that there is cheap lemonade available to replace all those guys. With the exception of Weigert (our 2nd best OLmen when healthy), you have listed a whole bunch of minimum or close to it contract guys. Don't see how you can project easily finding a bunch of minimum or close to it guys who will be upgrades at those spots.
 
infantrycak said:
IMO you are being overly optimistic that there is cheap lemonade available to replace all those guys. With the exception of Weigert (our 2nd best OLmen when healthy), you have listed a whole bunch of minimum or close to it contract guys. Don't see how you can project easily finding a bunch of minimum or close to it guys who will be upgrades at those spots.
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Exactly right. Two of the big reason we won't see massive roster turnover is:

1) Expensive players - too big of a cap hit to cut them

2) Cheap players - costs too much to replace them (I think more of these go if the GM changes - then the new GM brings in his own canon fodder).

I would be happy with somewhat limited turnover because I'd like to see the experiment of bringing back many of the same players (who were much better last year) and seeing how they respond to a new coach.
 
In general most NFL teams even those that have complete turnover do not completely sweep the coffers. MY example would be Cleveland, they got rid of alot of players, but it still not as many as Scooter is possibly talking about. You will see alot of turnover in the cap range you are talking about that is true, but less than you think, because most coaches and GMs will feel they have not adequately assessed the talent on this team. Unfortunately I think Casserly is going to get a pass eventhough consensus is on just starting the plan over. With Cass coming back though a great deal of the players will likely be back. There will likely though be alot of turnover on the practice squad.
 
Runner said:
Exactly right. Two of the big reason we won't see massive roster turnover is:

1) Expensive players - too big of a cap hit to cut them

2) Cheap players - costs too much to replace them (I think more of these go if the GM changes - then the new GM brings in his own canon fodder).

I would be happy with somewhat limited turnover because I'd like to see the experiment of bringing back many of the same players (who were much better last year) and seeing how they respond to a new coach.
Click to expand...


1) weigert's the only big hit, and we'd save 3mil by not resigning him. IMO he's as bad as mckinney and should not be starting on any professional line.

2) i'm in the belief that these guys mentioned can easily be replaced by late rounders, UFA's, and tryouts. that's just my opinion though because of the lack of talent i've seen personally indicates that it'd be near impossible to do worse.

also to be said, i'm sure casserly will fight to keep the roster relatively intact, if nothing else than to save face, but i think the new coaching staff will get a very large broom in which to clean house with anyways. 3 starters not on the team and 11 backups i guess doesnt seem like the total wipe that you're making it appear to be ... but that's why i make it clear it's opinion because i'm in no way an expert :tomato: .
 
Scooter said:
that's just my opinion though because of the lack of talent i've seen personally indicates that it'd be near impossible to do worse.
.....
3 starters not on the team and 11 backups i guess doesnt seem like the total wipe that you're making it appear to be ... but that's why i make it clear it's opinion because i'm in no way an expert
Click to expand...

I think the first part is where we disagree - I think we have some good players that haven't been looked at very much. I don't think a collection of UFAs, undrafted players, etc. would likely be an improvement.

14 out of 51 is over 1/4 of the team. To me that's pretty big.

Just my opinion too.
 
Coach C. said:
I would like to point out that Mork has done most of the work on this one and it is an excellent job. It is what I would expect out of him though.

August 23 does it produce anything other than perfection.
Click to expand...

Only in the case of Kobe Bryant, but I won't rag on your Lakers here, but it is good to see the Silver and Black back in control of the NBA and I do enjoy seeing Kobe hoisting 35 shots a night in a loss.:)
 
MorKnolle said:
Only in the case of Kobe Bryant, but I won't rag on your Lakers here, but it is good to see the Silver and Black back in control of the NBA and I do enjoy seeing Kobe hoisting 35 shots a night in a loss.:)
Click to expand...

Same here!


Back on topic - great work on the data; I am anxiously awaiting further installments.
 
infantrycak said:
Very good job. Couple of comments/questions. First, on Carr it looks like you are assuming they exercise the 3 year option and then are stating the cost to cut/trade--is that correct? If they don't exercise either of the options, Carr is a UFA and will walk away at no cost whatsoever.

On DD, the hit to trade/cut him varies over time. So far he has only received $5.5 mil of the guaranteed money under his contract and $1.117 has already been amortized on the cap. Until the Texans have to pay the other $3 mil in bonus money, it will not be added to the cost of trading/cutting him which currently is about $4.4 mil.
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Yes, the Carr expense is assuming we sign the three year extension on him, which I would personally do. I think he has shown flashes of being a very good QB. Likely the first year under a new offensive system won't be great for most of the players and won't be a good time to evaluate talent based on their production, so give them another two year beyond that and start bringing in a replacement QB in 2006 or 2007 if it doesn't look like he's going to improve. As far as Davis, that was the info I received on him and I don't know exactly how it has been amortized and everything and I figured that even if he hadn't been paid the rest of his bonus it would still count against our cap since it has been guaranteed to him, either way I still like him as our main RB and a $4.4 million hit to trade him for a 3rd rounder does not sound like a good deal.
 
Coach C. said:
In general most NFL teams even those that have complete turnover do not completely sweep the coffers. MY example would be Cleveland, they got rid of alot of players, but it still not as many as Scooter is possibly talking about. You will see alot of turnover in the cap range you are talking about that is true, but less than you think, because most coaches and GMs will feel they have not adequately assessed the talent on this team.
Click to expand...

Cleveland had 8 new starters out of 22. Three new O-line starters, a new QB, new RB, new safety, new NT, and a new CB. I'm not even counting Braylon Edwards who qualifies as a borderline starter. That's not a complete sweep but it's quite a few new faces that are starting. Didn't even try to count the new depth they acquired.
 
Great post!!

My goodness - I did NOT realize how BAD some of thes contracts were. Gary, Payne, Wade, and Morlon are TERRIBLE contracts. I mean, doesn't Casserly look at these and say, "HEY! These are a little much!?" At some point, he looked at these contracts and really liked them and made the deal.

We were ripped apart over Greenwood and Wade by the Miami folks and how they told us that they were SO overrated and that we WAY overpaid. Guess they were right?

We were ripped apart over Buchanon by the Oakland folks and how they told us that he was SO overrated and that, even though he's cheap contract-wise, we WAY overpaid. Guess they were right?

Walker's been hurt and Payne was 'alledgedly' offered a deal during last off season. I know hindsight looks beautiful but WOW....I didn't quite realize that the deals were that bad.

Does this pretty much eliminate a possible trading of DD in the offseason?
 
DRAMA said:
Does this pretty much eliminate a possible trading of DD in the offseason?
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It would make it very unlikely, and I don't really know why we'd trade him anyways. We could probably only get a third round pick at best for him which would not, in my mind, balance out the $4-7 million cap hit (not exactly sure on this figure as has been previously pointed out) to trade him.
 
Scooter said:
1) weigert's the only big hit, and we'd save 3mil by not resigning him. IMO he's as bad as mckinney and should not be starting on any professional line.
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I'll disagree with this statement and venture to say that many of the regulars that analyze game film here would disagree as well. Wiegert, when healthy, is a pretty decent guard. He's seldom healthy, however.
 
I personally think McKinney will be gone, it will cost us $806,000 but he costs $4.706,000 to stay and hasn't been playing great, definitely not up to his salary.
I like Wiegert, I think he is our second best OL and still a very functional OG, even though he costs $4,208,000 to keep it will cost $1,412,000 to cut him so I'd go ahead and keep him since next year is the last on his contract, and I doubt we can find a suitable replacement for next year, maybe draft a rookie but I'd still like to see Weigert around next year.
I wish we could cut Todd Wade, I don't know what we were thinking paying him that much money and the Dolphins are probably laughing their *** off about it. He is going to cost us $5,173,000 to keep but would cost $6,691,000 to get rid of so even if we don't play him he's cheaper to keep than get rid of. As I said before, I don't like him as RT anymore and think we need to draft a rookie to play RT and maybe switch to LT after a year, but I don't know if Wade can make the transition to OG since he is so tall and not especially mobile.
Gary Walker has played pretty well this year and is one of the team leaders but he's getting older and hasn't performed since his Pro Bowl year, and I don't know why we signed him to such a long contract when he was already fairly old. Seth Payne has also played pretty well but is also getting old and I don't know why we gave him such a big contract. If we switch to a 4-3 we will have too many DTs that will cost a lot of money to keep but cost too much to get rid of. Walker and Payne will cost a combined $9.77 million to keep. I like Robaire starting over either of them and we have Travis Johnson that we just drafted and needs to be worked in at some point in time, but Walker would cost over $7 million to get rid of and Payne would be another $3.4 million. We could possibly cut Payne, even though it would cost us a lot it would save us a little to cut him vs. keeping him, but I'd personally rather have him than Walker, so I don't know what we are going to do with all of them, but it also, in my mind, rules out us drafting a DT at least this year.
I didn't really like signing Greenwood, especially when he got paid as much if not more than the better LBs available. He is small for a LB and is not particularly fast, can't catch a ball to save his life and doesn't tackle overly well. Unfortunately cutting or trading him will cost us $5.6 million so that's not really an option, and keeping him will cost almost $4 million so we have to play him. I wish we could cut him already but that appears we are stuck with him for at least two more years.
I really hope Coleman is gone and I can't see him being kept after this year. I'm willing to take the $2.5 million hit to get rid of him, and it would save us $500k on the cap to do so. I've heard he wants to go to Dallas and play for Parcells again, so if Dallas actually wants him maybe we could trade for a 6th (I really doubt it) or a 7th round pick and some cash. While that $2.5 million will still count against our cap for a year, receiving some cash in return would at least repay for some of that bonus that we paid him.

As some people have pointed out, there are many other people on our team that could/should be cut, and I agree with many of them, but at the same time several of those are pretty cheap and I'm not sure we can find equally cheap replacements and if they are backups anyways there's no reason to go out and spend more money on non-starting-quality players, I think we've done enough of that already. We also have several restricted free agents that we will likely sign to their one-year tenders and see what they can do with new coaches and system. If I remember right, next year we would be about $11 million under the projected salary cap if we don't resign any of our free agents and we keep everyone else as is, so we do have some spending room and can resign some of our guys and go aftrer free agents, but we don't have a lot of room to get carried away with cutting some of these huge salaries. I think Casserly's biggest blunders have been some of these huge contracts offered to older veterans and less-than-worthy free agents, so unfortunately I think our roster next year will be pretty similar to this year's, so hopefully our new coaching staff will be able to get more out of our players and get our team moving in the right direction. We also may be somewhat stuck with a 3-4, at least in terms of personnel, for a couple years with the large contracts of four of our DL that all would be DTs in a 4-3, and we have a lot of linebackers, some of which will also be difficult to unload next year, so from a personnel standpoint it might be difficult to transition to a 4-3 for a year or two, so we might need to keep that in mind when hiring a new coach.
 
eriadoc said:
I'll disagree with this statement and venture to say that many of the regulars that analyze game film here would disagree as well. Wiegert, when healthy, is a pretty decent guard. He's seldom healthy, however.
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I agree, Wiegert is pretty good when healthy. This year's injury I can't really pin on him being injury-prone, as sprained ankles can happen to anyone. I don't remember what past injuries he's had and if those are more of a product of not being resilient or just fluke accidents.
 
MorKnolle said:
It would make it very unlikely, and I don't really know why we'd trade him anyways.
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It's funny. Even though I'm a proponent of Bush, I do not advocate trading DD simply because I feel they can co-exist. So, the reason why I asked that is well.....



...I don't actually know why!!
:embarrass
 
I suspect that some of the problems with contracts for older players resides with Capers. All you have to do is watch who he wants to play. Typically if he has a choice between a young player and an old vet, he picks the old vet in almost every case. So, I suspect he was in Charlie's ear/face that he had to have these older players and that put Charlie in the position of providing what the coach wants/needs. Should the contracts have been better...oh yes, but sometimes circumstances drive what you can do.
 
i'm really disappointed in that but completely agree jerek. coleman when playing with emotion and focus made a good corner & would make a heck of a FS, but he's not so he's just wasting a starting role for someone more hungry. i cant say that i dont feel bad for the guy having to keep playing when he knows how very wrong things are, but it's his job and he's got fans & teammates who are looking to him to hold up his end. coleman's gotta go.
 
edo783 said:
I suspect that some of the problems with contracts for older players resides with Capers. All you have to do is watch who he wants to play. Typically if he has a choice between a young player and an old vet, he picks the old vet in almost every case. So, I suspect he was in Charlie's ear/face that he had to have these older players and that put Charlie in the position of providing what the coach wants/needs. Should the contracts have been better...oh yes, but sometimes circumstances drive what you can do.
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I agree, Capers definitely has a heavy pull in who stays, but I still have to believe it's more on the GM, VP of football ops, scouts, whoever contributes to negotiating contracts to sign these guys to deals to keep them here without drastically overpaying and putting the team in a bad position later on (like we are now), and do some kind of research and offer them a fair-market price. No one else in the NFL would have offered Greenwood $25 million, no one would have paid Payne, Walker, Wade, or most of these people what they're earning. Does anyone know if Coleman was resigned last as a FS or as a CB? His salary wouldn't be bad for a decent CB but is pretty high for even an elite FS, and we all know he is neither of those.

jerek said:
Dunta Robinson is at the good end of this spectrum. Here is a guy who literally weighs a buck-eighty, and he is the surest tackler on our entire team.
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Robinson is listed at 174 actually.
 
edo783 said:
I suspect that some of the problems with contracts for older players resides with Capers. All you have to do is watch who he wants to play. Typically if he has a choice between a young player and an old vet, he picks the old vet in almost every case. So, I suspect he was in Charlie's ear/face that he had to have these older players and that put Charlie in the position of providing what the coach wants/needs. Should the contracts have been better...oh yes, but sometimes circumstances drive what you can do.
Click to expand...

That is a plausible scenario, but it is Charlie's responsibility to make the executive decision. If I were in CC's shoes I am not letting a coach who has one winning record dictate to me who I am bringing in and how much we are paying him. Where has Capers earned this level of respect?
 
jerek said:
As bad as our defense has been at times this year (a product mostly of Fangio's playcalling), Coleman has unquestionably been the donkey on the field. I do not and cannot understand how we for so long played someone who apparently cared so little.
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Unfortunately, this is the culture of the team. Arguably the worst offensive lineman on our entire roster gets fined every week for being 2 to 4 pounds over his assigned weight. Granted, the fine is a pittance to someone who makes hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. However he is easily 40-50 pounds overweight, so 2-3 days of care in food selection and a little intensity in workouts would shed that 2 to 4 pounds. But still, he starts. So I'll quote you:

I do not and cannot understand how we for so long played someone who apparently cared so little.
 
jerek said:
I think ideally, the coach and GM should work together. Some teams there is a blend, others it is pretty much all the GM's call, and teams have both been very successful and very unsuccessful historically with either approach. The GM has the final say in a split decision. Realistically, the coach sets the system and calls the plays, and because the GM needs to cater to that, he should know and respect what the coach wants.

Both Dom and Charlie come brief tenures with Super Bowl teams, where it can be argued that either played a more or less instrumental role to the success of those teams during the brief prime they experienced. Off the cuff, I would default to Dom's judgement.
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I 100% agree that there needs to be a strong working realtionship between the GM and coach. However, Cass is beholden to a lot more than the next win, he has to manage the cap for the well being of the team and be able to set a game plan for his scouting department. By every account I read, it appears Cass has done a good job to date.

Where we are at this moment shows no promise for a Cass/Capers duo leading the way. That is not to say that they did not draft, acquire or manage the cap well, it is just that there is no message or at least not one the team will run through a wall for. Capers is the face of the team outisde of the lines and based upon this moment in time and his career record as a head coach he needs to go.

One last thing on Capers, how many of his former players followed him to Houston? I do not recall any. Some of us who have played or coached in sports know what this means. I hate Parcells, but I respect that guy because it is obvious how much of an impact he has had on former player's careers and lives. You know how powerful a team can become when the players will run through a wall for you. The only thing I see this team wanting to run thorugh is the tunnel back to their locker room.
 
My take on how the GM/head coach thing works is that the coach decides what system he wants to run and tells the GM what players he thinks would be good in the system and the coach, scouting team, and GM work on deciding this together, then it's up to the GM, VP of football ops and whoever else does negotiating to bring these people in and make a reasonable offer. I think many of these phases have failed. Bringing in Babin (Capers initial decision), trading all the picks away to get him (Capers really wanted him but Casserly and scouts should have known we didn't need to trade up to get him), signing Greenwood (not the best LB available but got paid like it, not sure who liked him so much or how the negotiations team got conned into paying him that much), bringing in Buchanon (probably more of Capers), etc. While Capers may have been the main one that wanted to keep some of these veterans around (albeit I agree with some of the decisions to keep them, just not the duration and $ amounts), I think it would rest more on Casserly and the scouts to determine and appropriate price to pay for them and then Casserly and whoever else involved in the deal to get the players and their agents to agree. I think all of these people have had equal share, granted in different aspects of the process, in bringing in or keeping many of our transactions and the resulting cap situation that we are in.
 
MorKnolle said:
My take on how the GM/head coach thing works is that the coach decides what system he wants to run and tells the GM what players he thinks would be good in the system and the coach, scouting team, and GM work on deciding this together, then it's up to the GM, VP of football ops and whoever else does negotiating to bring these people in and make a reasonable offer. I think many of these phases have failed. Bringing in Babin (Capers initial decision), trading all the picks away to get him (Capers really wanted him but Casserly and scouts should have known we didn't need to trade up to get him), signing Greenwood (not the best LB available but got paid like it, not sure who liked him so much or how the negotiations team got conned into paying him that much), bringing in Buchanon (probably more of Capers), etc. While Capers may have been the main one that wanted to keep some of these veterans around (albeit I agree with some of the decisions to keep them, just not the duration and $ amounts), I think it would rest more on Casserly and the scouts to determine and appropriate price to pay for them and then Casserly and whoever else involved in the deal to get the players and their agents to agree. I think all of these people have had equal share, granted in different aspects of the process, in bringing in or keeping many of our transactions and the resulting cap situation that we are in.
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Thanks to y'all for doing this thread. It is nice to see really numbers so I am bumping this thread back up and adding a little more.

A few thoughts on this subject:

1. I would add to the above quote that I believe on the Texans the assistant coaches do a lot to sell the guys that they are interested in. Marciano was high on Mathis and was selling him before the draft. I saw a video presentation by Chick Harris showing the video they take at the combines--it shows the player stripped down to shorts, from various angles to show the body type, it shows the player doing drills, then there is a long list of things that the coaches/scouts use to evaluate the players--the detailed list was an entire page long.

2. In the presentation that Marciano gave, he said the worst part of his job is the business part of it. That often he has to give up some of his best special team players because the longer they are in the league, the higher the minimum salary is for those players. Eventually, the player will be displaced by a rookie once his salary goes up because there isn't enough cap space.

My understanding on how the Texans do things is that the entire coaching staff is very hands on regarding what players they want for a particular season. Casserly knows the details on the players, but has more of a big picture viewpoint and is salary cap focused.

When I saw him at a Q&A luncheon before last years draft, he said that a lot of times the media is more enamored of a player than the scouts/coaches are.

Chick Harris calls these type players "Big Pretties"--good combine guys but not necessarily good NFL football guys. When he was specifically asked about Bush, he said something to the effect of, DD is doing a great job, but I will take all the playmakers I can get.

BTW, I guess it belongs in this thread:

A Good Primer on Salary Cap Stuff
 
That is a good website that answers a lot of quesitons people may have about the salary cap. Check it out everyone!
 
HEY Board. (Mainly Credible Posters)

Give us your insight on what other offseason checks you would like us to do. We will soon be releasing the upcoming Free Agents, Some FA Mocks, and Team Needs- this will likely cover the Texans indepth but also other teams to show the likelyhood of us acquiring FAs and needs.

We would like your input though on the information you would like to see on top of what we are gathering. Please no goofy stuff. Thanx.
 
Also one of the Mods send me a PM to let me know how to keep these together. I was thinking making them sticky, but it is your pool we just swim here.
 
Man this came out pretty good cant wait for more and cant wait till the offseason to see exactly were are team is going.
 
Coach C. said:
HEY Board. (Mainly Credible Posters)

Give us your insight on what other offseason checks you would like us to do. We will soon be releasing the upcoming Free Agents, Some FA Mocks, and Team Needs- this will likely cover the Texans indepth but also other teams to show the likelyhood of us acquiring FAs and needs.

We would like your input though on the information you would like to see on top of what we are gathering. Please no goofy stuff. Thanx.
Click to expand...


Sweet. I've been trying to find info on the net regarding what percentages different teams spend on different positions. I am sure it is out there, and the information is out there to compile it, but I haven't found it and I am not sure for my purposes it is worth getting.

That being said, I found the coolest scholarly paper on that subject generally. Don't know if it has already been posted before. It looks at the NFL, post salary cap, and what positions it makes sense to spend money on in order to win. It is really a pretty dense paper, and has some interesting things to say, and probably raises more questions than it answers. It also has the potential to make your brain explode:

Brain exploding paper--you've been warned. (pdf)

You might have fun looking at that paper, and looking how the Texans are structured and making your own conclusions. I think it is a really interesting paper, but then again, I am kinda weird about this stuff.

Enjoy!:texflag:
 
Coach C. said:
HEY Board. (Mainly Credible Posters)

Give us your insight on what other offseason checks you would like us to do....
Click to expand...

I hope I meet your criteria of credible poster. I'm reluctant to add any work to your effort since I'm not willing to do it myself right now, but there is one piece of salary data that can have a big effect when peering into the future.

These are the incentive/roster bonuses that are a death knell for many players in the league. Carr has this big $5.5 or 8M one coming up; Riley just got cut because he had a (smaller) one due. Heck, part of Owens' problem with the Eagles was probably that he knew he'd never see the roster bonus he had in his contract.

Is this information readily available to add to your data?
 
Thanks Kaiser we have used said site before. As to runner that information while available is not readily made available for the public. In other words we cannot give that information out on the board. Sorry. I do agree that it has alot to do with things. TO was likely getting cut or restructured at the end of this year due to his huge roster bonus. As will McNair he is due something like 12million.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
This link is not the grail, but will help provide a piece of the puzzle for base salary on a yearly basis.

For what it is worth, in 2007 Dom Davis wil have the seventh largest base.

http://nflpa.org/Agents/main.asp?subPage=Active+Player+Search

If you play witht he sort field you can sort by compensation.
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Unfortunately that site only has their base salary and not the signing bonus as well. We found a site that includes signing bonus and total compensation and salary cap count, but that was only for Texans players, not everyone else in the league. I assume there are at least individual sites for each team, if not a centralized combined one for all the teams, out there somewhere if you look hard enough, and eventually cadahnic, coach c, and myself may look for those for our offseason recommendations, but at this point I can't guarantee it.
 
The FA list will likely be coming out sometime today or in the next few days. Just what you have look forward to. A list of all upcoming RFA and UFA, the interest they are gathering from their team and others. After the FA list we will be discussing the ones that might get free of their teams and who would greatly interest the Texans.
 
Too bad we didn't hire a consultant to help draw up the terms of some of these free agent signings and draft picks.
 
just looking at these contracts I doubt McKinney, Bradford, Armstrong, and a slew of other guys will be back. We even may lose out on Polk due to his season now that he got some PT.
 
Good Post.

We have several players that have huge contracts that are not producing and a few others that are only average.
If we don't cut/deal them, then we will be hampered for years.

Isn't it better to take our salary cap lumps now, while we suck?

My thoughts:
See if there is a market for these players/contracts (one thing that will up the trade value is the cap hit we take lowers their cap cost, in effect giving the other team the player at a cheaper cap cost):
DDavis - only if we get Bush. Huge salary cap hit but would probably bring us a solid #2 WR in exchange (Bjohnson form AZ or RFerguson from GB). I know the cost is a problem, but overall young talent is more important (we are so bad we will suck again next year anyway, instead build for a strong team in 2008).
Walker/Robaire - These guys have played decent enough to get something in exchange (one of them and our 2nd moves us up to ?). Also, will we really want these guys in 3 years? No. Try to deal them if they have value, if not, then keep them and cut them in a year or two when the hit is less and they are older (and it gives us 2 years to draft and develop their replacements).
Greenwood - Too expensive to cut and I doubt we get a decent offer - no choice but to wait a year or two (at least until we have a player to replace him).
Wade - Cut this guy if we can't deal any of the others. If we deal 1 or 2 of the others, then we will have to wait and cut him next year.

The other big contract players seem to be worth their money.

That way - WE GET OUR CAP SITUATION BACK IN LINE - the way it is now, we are stuck overpaying a few guys until 2009, unless we cut them and take the hit early (which I prefer).
 
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