Hit on Cutler...

[TEXANRED]

Don't hit him above the shoulders...

Don't run straight into the defender.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

The hit doesn't look helmet to helmet. Dobbins' head appears off to the side. The head jerk from Cutler is due to the sudden stop of the rest of his body.

You can't not hit a guy who is running at you. Should Dobbins have stepped aside and allowed Cutler to keep running?

Cutlers injury is his own stupid fault. I bet you he won't do that again.

Even if he didn't hit him helmet to helmet:

(b)􀀃 Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is:

(1)􀀃 Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless
player by encircling or grasping him; and

NFL RULES

 

[TEXANRED]

Even if he didn't hit him helmet to helmet:

NFL RULES

I hear you about the rules but I don't think these rules apply to this situation, or shouldnt anyway. Cutler was a runner and was past the line of scrimmage. Cutler ran straight at a defender and chose not to defend himself instead pulled off a boneheaded play that got him hurt. He was not a receiver going up for the catch nor was he in the pocket throwing the football. He was a runner.

If you run your car into the brick wall is it the brick wall's fault that you ran into it?

 

[playa465]

I hear you about the rules but I don't think these rules apply to this situation, or shouldnt anyway. Cutler was a runner and was past the line of scrimmage. Cutler ran straight at a defender and chose not to defend himself instead pulled off a boneheaded play that got him hurt. He was not a receiver going up for the catch nor was he in the pocket throwing the football. He was a runner.

If you run your car into the brick wall is it the brick wall's fault that you ran into it?

LMAO Goodnight all!!

 

[Fred]

Cutler became a RB the minute he "crossed" (Or when the Refs thought he crossed if you believe he didn't) the LOS. He therefore loses the protections of being a QB.

In all honesty the rule should probably be ammended because a QB doesn't run the ball the way a RB does. There should be some kind of defenseless QB rule when running. The QB is vunarable until he is way past the LOS.

I was screaming at the TV, although glad for the illegal forward pass, but pissed, because that was kind of having it both ways. I always wonder if the coaches yell some of the same things fans do when there are those strange calls.

Does the QB run the differently when Cam Newton runs or RGIII runs an option play? If the rule is changed to protect a defenseless QB when running rule, then a QB should not be allow to run for positive yardage. As soon as the QB reaches the LOS, the play is whistled dead for no gain. The worst abuser of the Qb running treatment was Steve Young. When a defender closed on him, he would lean his chest back and jut his knees out like he was starting to slide. If the defender backed off, he would shift to the side and run for another 6 or 10 yards. If the defender didn't back off, he did the slide for the penalty.

We did get the best of the off setting penalties because the big play was wiped out. I still say the calls were inconsistent. Unless if it is 4th and 4, and Arian Foster is about to get drilled for a 2 yard gain he could throw the ball forward and get a do over on off setting penalties.

 

[thunderkyss]

I tried to argue it was a good hit. Old school & all, that's the way you stop a QB from wanting to run the ball.

But the truth of the matter is.... Cutler didn't have the ball when Dobbins hit him.

That throws out all "legalities" that might exist.

It doesn't matter that he was a QB, doesn't matter what side of the LOS he was on.... he didn't have the ball in his hands when he got hit.

 

[Wolf]

When I first saw the play in full speed. I thought he was way over the line (replay proved he was at the line) I did think it was a bang bang play at first glance.

I don't know. When you see QBs (running) juke defenders for big yardage because the defenders held up. Everyone says what a play by the QB!! But when a defender levels them , it is "how can ye hit them?"
Guess as a defender you roll with the hits

 

[TEXANRED]

I tried to argue it was a good hit. Old school & all, that's the way you stop a QB from wanting to run the ball.

But the truth of the matter is.... Cutler didn't have the ball when Dobbins hit him.

That throws out all "legalities" that might exist.

It doesn't matter that he was a QB, doesn't matter what side of the LOS he was on.... he didn't have the ball in his hands when he got hit.

So if a running back who is about to only get a one yard gain pulls up and throws the ball and gets leveled, does that mean he would get the 15 yard roughing the passer penalty?

 

[thunderkyss]

So if a running back who is about to only get a one yard gain pulls up and throws the ball and gets leveled, does that mean he would get the 15 yard roughing the passer penalty?

Yes, then the RB gets cut for being a punk

 

[infantrycak]

So if a running back who is about to only get a one yard gain pulls up and throws the ball and gets leveled, does that mean he would get the 15 yard roughing the passer penalty?

The NFL may need to clarify (although they probably will not unless someone tries to abuse the current setup) but as the rules read yes there should be offsetting penalties just as here. It doesn't matter who the passer is "in the act of throwing or immediately after" they are considered a defenseless player.

 

[NitroGSXR]

I tried to argue it was a good hit. Old school & all, that's the way you stop a QB from wanting to run the ball.

It didn't stop Cutler. He scrambled for 11 on the very next play.

 

[thunderkyss]

It didn't stop Cutler. He scrambled for 11 on the very next play.

Yeah, if they didn't give Dobbins the penalty, I bet he would have thought twice.

 

[Yankee_In_TX]

So the question that I am stuck with and was confused about when there were to flags thrown was this... How can Cutler be flagged for throwing an illegal forward pass when he crosses the line of scrimage and yet still be protected as a QB when he ran the ball across the line of scrimmage?

That's a silly discussion being floated by the talking heads.

It's the NFL not a court of law.

IMHO.

(and the proper answer appears in here numerous times, he was still a passer even if it was an illegal play)

 

[HOU-TEX]

When I first saw the play in full speed. I thought he was way over the line (replay proved he was at the line) I did think it was a bang bang play at first glance.

I don't know. When you see QBs (running) juke defenders for big yardage because the defenders held up. Everyone says what a play by the QB!! But when a defender levels them , it is "how can ye hit them?"
Guess as a defender you roll with the hits

He was actually a yard past the LOS. The LOS marker was wrong. The LOS was actually at the 50 (3rd and 9) and the LOS marker was sitting about the 49. That's why he appeared to be at the "red line" on tv.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/chicago-bears/0ap2000000093552/Cutler-injured-on-illegal-hit

 

[TexanSam]

I hear you about the rules but I don't think these rules apply to this situation, or shouldnt anyway. Cutler was a runner and was past the line of scrimmage. Cutler ran straight at a defender and chose not to defend himself instead pulled off a boneheaded play that got him hurt. He was not a receiver going up for the catch nor was he in the pocket throwing the football. He was a runner.

If you run your car into the brick wall is it the brick wall's fault that you ran into it?

He was a passer. He was penalized as a passer, even if he was past the LOS and was defenseless.

 

[GlassHalfFull]

He was actually a yard past the LOS. The LOS marker was wrong. The LOS was actually at the 50 (3rd and 9) and the LOS marker was sitting about the 49. That's why he appeared to be at the "red line" on tv.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/chicago-bears/0ap2000000093552/Cutler-injured-on-illegal-hit

Hou-tex is right. Look at where the ball is spotted. And the announcers were so caught up that they never looked at where the ball was actually spotted on the replays.

I still won't be surprised if there are fines just because of the number of qbs with concussions this week. To be clear, I don't think Dobbins hit was dirty. But Goodell probably won't leave this one alone.

 

[Dread-Head]

Cutler threw the ball a nano second before he got hit. It was obvious that it wasn't a malicious hit. Had he hit him full on Cutler would STILL be unconscious.

 

[Rey]

When I was watching the game I screamed that he was passed the Los as soon as he threw the ball.

I don't think dobbins should have been penalized or fined. If I felt like he was a runner and not a passer I'm pretty sure dobbins felt like he was tackling a runner rather than going in for a sack.

That play was cutlers fault for not realizing where he was at on the field.

 

[eriadoc]

All this talk of what should happen or what ought to be is missing the point. Cutler is a QUARTERBACK in the NFL, regardless of his location on the field of play, if he's running, passing, or playing tiddlywinks. If a defensive player hits a QB in the head, anyplace on the field, he's getting fined. It's really that simple. Btch, moan, groan, gripe and/or complain about it, but that is just the way it is. And it's going to get worse, not better.

 

[DBCooper]

Cutler threw the ball a nano second before he got hit. It was obvious that it wasn't a malicious hit. Had he hit him full on Cutler would STILL be unconscious.

Definitely wasn't malicious. I believe this was a total accident.

But still helmet to helmet on a QB, he might get fined on this one.

 

[infantrycak]

All this talk of what should happen or what ought to be is missing the point. Cutler is a QUARTERBACK in the NFL, regardless of his location on the field of play, if he's running, passing, or playing tiddlywinks. If a defensive player hits a QB in the head, anyplace on the field, he's getting fined. It's really that simple. Btch, moan, groan, gripe and/or complain about it, but that is just the way it is. And it's going to get worse, not better.

It isn't that simple. Vick, RG III, Newton and other QB's who head down field as runners get hit in the head regularly and have suffered several concussions without fines.

 

[disaacks3]

Hou-tex is right. Look at where the ball is spotted. And the announcers were so caught up that they never looked at where the ball was actually spotted on the replays.

I still won't be surprised if there are fines just because of the number of qbs with concussions this week. To be clear, I don't think Dobbins hit was dirty. But Goodell probably won't leave this one alone.

I expect a fine, as he's still a QB, and it still looks helmet-to-helmet.

There was no doubt in my mind that he was past the LoS at the game, nor on the numerous replays we kept seeing over and over. Heck, the Bears fan we were with kept ranting about the "wasted challenge" after the game as he saw it the first time on replay.

Hopefully, it's a token 15K.

 

[eriadoc]

It isn't that simple. Vick, RG III, Newton and other QB's who head down field as runners get hit in the head regularly and have suffered several concussions without fines.

I haven't seen a helmet-to-helmet hit on a QB yet that hasn't been fined. It's happened, I suppose, but I don't know about it. I do know of several helmet-to-helmet hits on non-QB players that have been fined, in addition to all the QB hits. Can't hit a QB in the head these days. Jack Lambert was a prophet.

 

[badboy]

I don't know about intent to injure but that was helmet to helmet. Not quite dirty but definitely illegal. He better have his checkbook ready today. Hopefully the league won't tack a suspension on too.


EDIT: Watching the replay a few more times here, I gotta say, it looks worse every time. That was pretty dirty. He's definitely taking a shot at Cutler. The guilty hands afterward don't help. Also, you don't have to aim hip high to not take a shot at his extremely upper torso. There's a whole middle section in there that would've been a clean hit and still probably knocked Cutler's pansy ass out.

That's two down. Locker and Cutler. Who's next? My bet is Stafford.

This. We got to see the line across the field for LOS but players can't see that. NFL has to stop these type of hits to protect all players; it is not always the person being hit that goes out with injury. The ball was long gone before Dobbins hit Cutler. Helmet to helmet, enough said.

Bringing up other plays is ridiculous imo. Dobbins deserves a fine and if he is suspended, I'll keep my mouth shut.

 

[Showtime100]

Just glad Antonio Smith wasn't the one hitting Cutler on the play. Roger Goodell would have taken him out back and shot him on the spot.

 

[thunderkyss]

Has he been fined yet?

 

[Hervoyel]

I'm really starting to wonder if it's possible to be "just a little bit dyslexic". I keep seeing this thread and reading "Cut on Hitler".

 

[Showtime100]

I'm really starting to wonder if it's possible to be "just a little bit dyslexic". I keep seeing this thread and reading "Cut on Hitler".

********

To Fiddler, I'm not finding anything on a fine as of yet.

 

[TEXANRED]

This. We got to see the line across the field for LOS but players can't see that. NFL has to stop these type of hits to protect all players; it is not always the person being hit that goes out with injury. The ball was long gone before Dobbins hit Cutler. Helmet to helmet, enough said.

Bringing up other plays is ridiculous imo. Dobbins deserves a fine and if he is suspended, I'll keep my mouth shut.

What play ared you guys watching? Dobbins helmet is on the right side of Cutlers shoulder and out of view on all instant replays suggesting there was no helmet to helmet hit. Cutler was running straight up towards Dobbins. What do you suggest Dobbins do? Should he have lowered his head and hit cutler in the chest and risk a broken kneck?

Dobbins did not leave his feet. Dobbins did not wrap up cutler and drive him to the ground. Dobbins did not hit him from the side or from behind. Dobbins reacted to a runner running straight at him and nothing more.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

What play ared you guys watching? Dobbins helmet is on the right side of Cutlers shoulder and out of view on all instant replays suggesting there was no helmet to helmet hit. Cutler was running straight up towards Dobbins. What do you suggest Dobbins do? Should he have lowered his head and hit cutler in the chest and risk a broken kneck?

Dobbins did not leave his feet. Dobbins did not wrap up cutler and drive him to the ground. Dobbins did not hit him from the side or from behind. Dobbins reacted to a runner running straight at him and nothing more.

Yes, but that runner was a QB in the act of throwing the ball. So Dobbins should have played 2 hand touch and asked to carry Cutler's handbag while he was at it.

 

[Hervoyel]

Yes, but that runner was a QB in the act of throwing the ball. So Dobbins should have played 2 hand touch and asked to carry Cutler's handbag while he was at it.

I don't know, the referee might think that was a little bit forward of Dobbins and still thrown a flag. Best just to avoid him entirely.

 

[Texan_Bill]

Yes, but that runner was a QB in the act of throwing the ball. So Dobbins should have played 2 hand touch and asked to carry Cutler's handbag while he was at it.

While I agree with you... I'm thinking of my childhood whenever my parents would say something like, "do you want me to wipe that smirk off your face?"... I'm pretty sure Dobbins did that to Cutler, albeit unintentional.

 

[PhilpW]

When do quarterbacks take some responsibility for these type of injuries? Never, because they are competitors just like defenders. A Cutler or RG3 are not going to slide and a linebacker is not going to back off from a QB. Dobbins was in a defensive position and Cutler had just thrown from his toes, how was Dobbins supposed to stop within 1 second and position himself as to not harm the QB? Answer: it can't be done. May as well tell the defense when the QB runs, just let him go. If he fakes a throw and runs, oh well.

 

[gtexan02]

That doesn't match what he said in this article - Link

Heres what he said earlier:

“I felt like [the hit] was on time,” said Dobbins.

He wasn’t sure if it was his blow or one delivered by Jackson at the end of a Cutler scramble on the very next play that ultimately meant Jason Campbell would play the second half.

“I have no idea, I have no clue,” he said, before touching on the increasingly taboo topic of knocking a player from the game. “But it was good that he was out, though. I mean you always want to take the quarterback out of the game. I hit him in his chest. I did not hit him in his head. Nowhere near it. I did not touch his helmet.”

Typically Dobbins said he would look to hit a quarterback hip-high, but as Cutler was still trying to make a play, he felt going higher gave him more of a chance to “mess up the throw as well.”

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/66605/texans-silence-chicago-this-chicago-that

Sure sounds like he was trying to disrupt a pass

 

[Fred]

All this talk of what should happen or what ought to be is missing the point. Cutler is a QUARTERBACK in the NFL, regardless of his location on the field of play, if he's running, passing, or playing tiddlywinks. If a defensive player hits a QB in the head, anyplace on the field, he's getting fined. It's really that simple. Btch, moan, groan, gripe and/or complain about it, but that is just the way it is. And it's going to get worse, not better.

So if the Jets run the wildcat, Sanchez at receiver, Tebow in the backfield, and direct snap to Greene, who's the QB? All three? What if Greene throws it? What if he hands to Tebow who runs? Why not stock your roster with Brad Smiths and Johnny Manziels and send 7 QBs onto the field every play?

This. We got to see the line across the field for LOS but players can't see that. NFL has to stop these type of hits to protect all players; it is not always the person being hit that goes out with injury. The ball was long gone before Dobbins hit Cutler. Helmet to helmet, enough said.

Bringing up other plays is ridiculous imo. Dobbins deserves a fine and if he is suspended, I'll keep my mouth shut.

If someone would make an honest argument that Dobbins should have gotten the penalty for a late hit that's fine.

What play ared you guys watching? Dobbins helmet is on the right side of Cutlers shoulder and out of view on all instant replays suggesting there was no helmet to helmet hit. Cutler was running straight up towards Dobbins. What do you suggest Dobbins do? Should he have lowered his head and hit cutler in the chest and risk a broken kneck?

Dobbins did not leave his feet. Dobbins did not wrap up cutler and drive him to the ground. Dobbins did not hit him from the side or from behind. Dobbins reacted to a runner running straight at him and nothing more.

Cutler released the ball at the 49 1/2. Contact with Dobbins was at the 48. Dobbins stopped at the 49. If Cutler was a defenseless passer standing at the 49 1/2 instead of running forward, probably no contact occurs. Yes, Dobbins took a step towards Cutler after the ball was released but Cutler also jumped into Dobbins.

 

[eriadoc]

So if the Jets run the wildcat, Sanchez at receiver, Tebow in the backfield, and direct snap to Greene, who's the QB? All three? What if Greene throws it? What if he hands to Tebow who runs?

What if? Who cares? If a defensive player hits them IN THE HEAD (/Vizzini), then it's going to be a penalty. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying what ought to be, I'm saying if you hit a QB, or really any offensive player, IN THE HEAD, you're going to get a penalty and probably a fine. That's just the way the NFL is now.

 

[TEXANRED]

What if? Who cares? If a defensive player hits them IN THE HEAD (/Vizzini), then it's going to be a penalty. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying what ought to be, I'm saying if you hit a QB, or really any offensive player, IN THE HEAD, you're going to get a penalty and probably a fine. That's just the way the NFL is now.

I don't believe Dobbins hit Cutler in the head. The replay show Dobbins head going to the right of Cutlers helmet. His head whips back b/c of the sudden stop. I will continue to say that until I get footage that states otherwise.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

What if? Who cares? If a defensive player hits them IN THE HEAD (/Vizzini), then it's going to be a penalty. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying what ought to be, I'm saying if you hit a QB, or really any offensive player, IN THE HEAD, you're going to get a penalty and probably a fine. That's just the way the NFL is now.

Helmet to helmet contact is allowed against a running back while he's a runner. It's even allowed against a receiver if he's not defenseless at the time.

And that's where the problem with the definition comes in. According to the rules, as soon as a QB leaves the pocket, he's supposed to "stop" being a QB and he's supposed to become a runner with the option of sliding and giving himself up to keep from being hit.

If that's the case, then Dobbins should have been able to hit him just like he did without a penalty. If the pass was illegal, then he shouldn't have been a QB anymore, he should have been a runner. The fact that he passed should be his mistake, not Dobbins'.

BUT. That's not the way the rules are going to be called. QBs are always going to get the benefit of the doubt. You hit a QB high OR low at your own risk.

 

[gtexan02]

I don't believe Dobbins hit Cutler in the head. The replay show Dobbins head going to the right of Cutlers helmet. His head whips back b/c of the sudden stop. I will continue to say that until I get footage that states otherwise.

Did you watch the slow motion replay after it happened? The contact seemed pretty obvious...

 

[TEXANRED]

Did you watch the slow motion replay after it happened? The contact seemed pretty obvious...

I have. I have even watched it on youtube and played it frame by frame. His helmet goes to the right. Cutlers Helmet appears to snap straight back, not off to the side. This would suggest that Dobbins misses Cutlers head and the whiplash is due to the sudden stop.

 

[ChampionTexan]

Even if he didn't hit him helmet to helmet:

(b)�� Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is:

(1)�� Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless
player by encircling or grasping him; and

NFL RULES

MORE NFL RULES
LINK1
LINK2

Rule 8 Section 1 Supplemental Note Section (Bottom of first page at linked site):

2) Roughing the passer rules apply on all passes (legal or illegal) thrown from behind the line of scrimmage (12-2-8). If a
pass is thrown from beyond the line of scrimmage, unnecessary roughness may apply for action against the passer.

Rule 12 Article 2 Section 7:

(a) Players in a defenseless posture are:
(1) A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass;

 

[TEXANRED]

MORE NFL RULES

Rule 8 Section 1 Supplemental Note Section (Bottom of first page at linked site):

May apply is the key word(s).

 

[ChampionTexan]

May apply is the key word(s).

Please explain how this supports your position?

 

[TEXANRED]

Please explain how this supports your position?

May apply but also may not apply. I do not believe the Dobbins hit applies to this situation.

 

[ChampionTexan]

May apply but also may not apply. I do not believe the Dobbins hit applies to this situation.

Well, he was a passer, and while it's true that he was throwing an illegal pass, the rule says very specifically that unnecessary roughness may apply even if he is in front of the line of scrimmage. That's why I think it may and does apply to this situation. Please explain why you think it does not.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

MORE NFL RULES
LINK1
LINK2

Rule 8 Section 1 Supplemental Note Section (Bottom of first page at linked site):


Rule 12 Article 2 Section 7:

msr

 

[TEXANRED]

Well, he was a passer, and while it's true that he was throwing an illegal pass, the rule says very specifically that unnecessary roughness may apply even if he is in front of the line of scrimmage. That's why I think it may and does apply to this situation. Please explain why you think it does not.

Negative sir. The QB became a runner the second he advanced the football. It's not Dobbins fault Cutler pussed out and try to pass the ball.

What happened to Cutler was acutlers fault.

 

[ChampionTexan]

Negative sir. The QB became a runner the second he advanced the football. It's not Dobbins fault Cutler pussed out and try to pass the ball.

What happened to Cutler was acutlers fault.

The exact wording of the NFL rule:

If a pass is thrown from beyond the line of scrimmage, unnecessary roughness may apply for action against the passer.

A pass was thrown. He was beyond the line of scrimmage. I absolutely cannot comprehend how this is not an instance where this rule applies.

I'm not particularly optimistic about this, but if you don't believe rule applies to this play, please give me an example of where you believe it would apply.

 

[2012Champs]

Negative sir. The QB became a runner the second he advanced the football. It's not Dobbins fault Cutler pussed out and try to pass the ball.

What happened to Cutler was acutlers fault.

You are wrong the rules clearly to match up with what you "think" should happen but that doesnt change the actual rules and how the game is called. The QB never became a runner so from the start everything you say is wrong once you make that statement

 

[Vinny]

I have. I have even watched it on youtube and played it frame by frame. His helmet goes to the right. Cutlers Helmet appears to snap straight back, not off to the side. This would suggest that Dobbins misses Cutlers head and the whiplash is due to the sudden stop.

I think your keen eye needs some education on momentum perhaps. Wouldn't Cutlers head snap forward instead of backwards if Dobbins hit his body but not his head? That's what physics would suggest.