Help Me See Something

[awtysst]

Let me first state that I am not sure what I want to do with the number one pick. I am still thinking what is the best move for the team but I want to hear some intelligent discussion.

I do not understand why we would take Reggie Bush first. While he has shown some great play at the college level can you justify drafting him first? We all know he will not be a 25 carry back but what could he do? He will likely be a 12 carry a game back and probably get about 4-5 catches per game. That would work out to about 16-17 touches per game. Now while some people would say what about kickoff and punt returns, would you REALLY invest that much in a guy and put him in a positon to get hit hard by the entire Special teams? There is a reason 2nd and 3rd stringers go to the special teams afterall. Based on this idea, can we really justify that much money on 17 touches a game?

I do not understand why we would take Vince Young first. While he has shown some great play at the college level, can you justify drafting him first? He will likely not start at all the first season and might end up in a Phillip Rivers- Drew Brees situaiton. We know he can run in college, but he made some bad D's look awful. He never faced an NFL style Defense all year. Also, he played out of a shotgun system. Last year's number one ALex Smith played out of a shotgun system and he was horrendous. Will VY be like ALex Smith, probably not, but he wont be Steve McNair, Randall Cunningham, or McNabb his firststarting year either, if ever. Can we jutify that much money who has that many ?s.

I do not understand how we can trade down. Trading down will net us a few picks. But the fact of the matter is, this team is bad. There are a lot of holes and losing s potential difference maker is not wise. Both Bush and Young have the ability to make you pay attention to THEM. If the linebacker or safty has ot look at Bush or Young for an extra couple seconds that could help get some of our other options free. That can be the difference between extending the chains and picking up that first down and having to punt away. We cannot be the best D and O in one year so why not really build up our Offense with Kubiack? Bush and Young are picks for the future whereas trading down is a pick for now. If we draft Young or Bush, get a solid TE to throw to, and then let Kubiack find and mold his type of Olineman, we will be building a solid team.

Ok. Obviously i have presented the arguments of all three sides. Please intelligently respond by saying your choice and why. And please try to use solid arguments that do not say why a particular player "sucks". Thanks.

 

[BeerFan]

i think you might be spoiled by the players in the draft. it seems that you might be seeking a perfect and complete player with this #1 pick. it isnt going to happen. you even have two all-world talents to choose from, and neither one is enough. there is a learning curve between NCAA and the NFL. Players will get better, and they will improve.

 

[MorKnolle]

Vince Young has some great physical skills, but as you said I don't think he is worthy of the #1 overall pick to this team. Vince has a lot of serious question marks that could take a couple years to work out, and I don't want to sit and wait that long just to see if he's going to be that special QB. I personally think Carr has the potential to be a phenomenal QB as well and don't see why we'd spend the #1 pick and all that money for another QB. I do think Vince could go to certain other teams and flourish and be a great QB there, but I don't see this as being an ideal situation for him and I don't see him being an ideal situation for our team either.

Reggie Bush has some phenomenal athletic skills. I can see how he could be effective in our offense if we used him right. Obviously he probably will not be a 22-25 carry a game RB that will be the cornerstone of our running game, but he does add a new dimension of speed like Tatum Bell does in Denver. I personally would prefer a more complete RB like LaDanian Tomlinson, but obviously guys like him come our just as rarely if not more so than Bush. At the same time, I'd personally prefer a runner like Adrian Peterson who will be available next year as opposed to Reggie Bush, but that's just my preference on running styles. Still, I can see Bush coming in and getting 5-8 carries a game and being used as a WR 65-70% of the time and allowing Domanick Davis to get his 15-18 carries a game to maintain his effectiveness while not wearing out his knees, but the question arises do you spend a #1 pick and all that money on a 70% WR/30% RB? I personally think it would be better to trade down, but I can see a decently strong case for drafting Reggie Bush.

Trading down could net us extra draft picks and/or veterans. Someone pointed out that some scouts say there are 40-50 1st round-quality draft prospects this year, meaning we are currently guaranteed two of those. Some people on here say that is reason to draft Bush or Young at #1 because we are guaranteed to get another guy that is top quality at #33, but to me that says we should trade down. We can maybe add a proven veteran in the trade, otherwise we move down 3-6 spots in the 1st round to get a stud OLineman or defensives player (spots that are huge weaknesses on our team), add another high 2nd round pick to get another one of these 1st round-quality guys, a future 1st round pick, and maybe a 3rd or 4th rounder this year. To me the main problems with our team are in certain defensive areas (LBs are a problem but I don't think this is the year we can do much with our current guys to make room for someone new, we really need another CB and/or coverage S, and if we switch to a 4-3 we definitely need at least one DE) and then on the offensive line. Trading down to 4-8 range would be a more appropriate area to address one of those needs and get the top-ranked guy at that respective position rather than settling for a 2nd or 3rd round one, and we get additional picks this year to fill more of those holes plus a 1st round pick for next year. I think our core of players (Carr, Davis, Andre, Mathis, Dunta) are all good players and can be much more effective with a new coaching system and with better talent around them, and I think trading down and wisely using those picks is the best option to improve our overall team.

There, that's my side of the argument, and I commend anyone that can read thru that whole thing because it turned out being quite long.

 

[real]

When we pick VY are you still gonna be a fan ?

 

[MorKnolle]

When we pick VY are you still gonna be a fan ?

Stay on topic as the thread's author asked. To answer your question yes I will still be a fan if we draft Vince Young, will you be a fan if they don't draft Vince? I honestly don't see the Texans drafting Vince anyways so I'm not overly worried about it, but if they feel that drafting Vince is the best move for this team then I'm fine with that and I will still be a fan of the team regardless of what they do.

 

[real]

Good...and yes I will be a fan, I hope they get VY, but if they don't... I;m not jumping out of any windows

 

[big homey]

If we draft Bush, I don't see him replacing or even splitting carries with DD. His size, speed, and hands set him up to become a playmaking WR in the NFL, in my opinion. Gaffney and Bradford are UFAs this offseason, so if we don't re-sign Gaff, we need a replacement because I don't see us handing the reigns of #2 to Mathis and hoping he lives up to that. If Bush isn't a pure receiver, he's an offensive weapon sporting speed, vision, and moves in the open field. If the Rose Bowl was any indication, I don't see a bright future for him at RB.

I can't deny Young is talented, and I'm pretty sure he'll do well in the league, but I don't think we can draft him with any integrity. Anyone who's seen the Texans play knows that Carr hasn't been given a real chance to succeed, so drafting Young would only serve to appease the fans, which would show that McNair is concerned about other things besides establishing a quality franchise. So no Vince.

As for your trading down argument, I feel like the 2-14 season was an anomaly, a product of the team giving up on the coaches' schemes. I think that with a few key positions filled up, mixed with a new coaching staff and the refreshment of a new season will do the team a LOT of good. The thing is, those key positions don't demand the #1 pick, so trading down and getting value would be the wisest move.

My preference? Peep tha sig.

 

[real]

Bush didn't have a bad rose bowl performance...Who were you watching, He had the one costly fumble but besides that he was burning the Texas defense...

 

[yourfavoritetexan42]

here is my take on it

Reggie Bush is a great RB, dont take me wrong.

But so is
Williams- Memphis
White- USC
Maroney- Minn.
Lundy- VA
Calhoun- Wisconsin (My personal favorite)

We do not need a QB so that takes out Young/Leinert


D`Brickashaw Ferguson is an outstanding player, but #1 Overall pick? No way.
AJ Hawk is an awesome player...but he is no Brian Urlacher or Ray Lewis

Mario Williams is an outstanding player, but we could trade down and still pick him up...

Lets trade down... pickup mario williams or AJ Hawk and then pickup some o linemen later in the draft/bytrade etc.

Everyone, the Texans have the talent... Andre Johnson I think skill wise he is a top 5 receiver in the NFL (this year he was just plagued by injuries).

Domanick Davis would be a 1800 yard guy if he was running for the chiefs seahawks or broncos
wait?
did I just say broncos...isnt gary kubiak coming over, who is the mind behind that broncos scheme that has produced so many 1000 yard men in recent years?

David Carr has a cannon of an arm and is the 3rd best rushing qb in the nfl. He can get away from the first pass rusher...just not the 2nd...or 3rd...or 4th... or all 11...

Pitts and McKinney are both quality starters we can keep. We need 3 more starters and a TE on the offensive line.

As for defense... Robaire Smith is a big dude who can plug up holes and has the strength to disrupt offensive lines. Throw him back in the middle like his coming out days in a titans uniform. Put Jason Babin back at defensive end, hes got a whole lot of speed and he can still beef up before 2006 starts to be able to stop that run. Gary Walker is washed up...get rid of him. Travis Johnson can play the other end and maybe live up to the potential we gave him... and Seth Payne is a smart player who can still disrupt in the middle. We also have a little depth that has some experience.

Assuming we are running a 4-3... Wong Greenwood Peek Orr all look like potential starters. Wong really had a strong season back in 05, its a shame he was injured so quickly in 06.

Dante Robinson has one corner shutdown and can play with the leagues elite. As for the other 3... I do like Glenn Earl at a safety spot... and Buchanan has the talent, just teach him how to use it...sometimes you have the players you are looking for right under you nose, you just have to discipline them and coach them harder. Faggins can also come in as a nickel back and do a decent job. As for that other safety position, we definately need to address that in the draft.

Do not forget, we have a probowl kick returner, who deserves being their in hawaii.

We need to utilize the draft to its full potential and the free agency as well. This is our year to turn around.

 

[nunusguy]

Anyone who's seen the Texans play knows that Carr hasn't been given a real chance to succeed, so drafting Young would only serve to appease the fans, which would show that McNair is concerned about other things besides establishing a quality franchise. So no Vince.

Very well said, because I don't want to go down that road again with a
brand new QB that will take several seasons to reach maturity - we're still in
that process with the current guy. When we finally have a dependable, stable line to include a all purpose TE maybe a new QB but not before.

 

[thunderkyss]

I do not understand why we would take Reggie Bush first. While he has shown some great play at the college level can you justify drafting him first? We all know he will not be a 25 carry back but what could he do? He will likely be a 12 carry a game back and probably get about 4-5 catches per game. That would work out to about 16-17 touches per game. Now while some people would say what about kickoff and punt returns, would you REALLY invest that much in a guy and put him in a positon to get hit hard by the entire Special teams? There is a reason 2nd and 3rd stringers go to the special teams afterall. Based on this idea, can we really justify that much money on 17 touches a game?

I do not understand why we would take Vince Young first. While he has shown some great play at the college level, can you justify drafting him first? He will likely not start at all the first season and might end up in a Phillip Rivers- Drew Brees situaiton. We know he can run in college, but he made some bad D's look awful. He never faced an NFL style Defense all year. Also, he played out of a shotgun system. Last year's number one ALex Smith played out of a shotgun system and he was horrendous. Will VY be like ALex Smith, probably not, but he wont be Steve McNair, Randall Cunningham, or McNabb his firststarting year either, if ever. Can we jutify that much money who has that many ?s.

I pretty much agree on Bush...... a RB, that's not an RB....... #1 overall doesn't relate.

Now Young..... He can will a team to win..... we don't have that kind of leadership on this team.... He convinced Mac Brown to let him play(Mac Brown is pretty stubborn) this shows me the guy is mature... I imagine him saying, "Coach... give me the rock........ I won't let you down" then the Heaven's opened, and Gabriel blew his horn...

sorry, getting a little off track....... but I hope you do get my point. At the same time, He worked his offseason to improve his game.. and it shows. That's what I want to hear my QB is doing in the offseason..

He's big........ he can throw........... he's smart....... people follow him.... I don't see the downside.

Except Carr. He should be able to decide what he wants to do... I'd hate to lose him.... but I'd have liked to seen Emmit retire as a Cowboy... Montana as a 49er, and Warren Moon as an Oiler.... This is Business. We need more than anything, a leader on the team. This is going to decide how/what we can do with the rest of the team. If David Carr is that leader, great.... let him show us... I'd hate more than anything for us to find out Carr isn't the Guy, and we passed on YOung.

 

[thunderkyss]

here is my take on it

Reggie Bush is a great RB, dont take me wrong.

But so is
Williams- Memphis
White- USC
Maroney- Minn.
Lundy- VA
Calhoun- Wisconsin (My personal favorite)

We do not need a QB so that takes out Young/Leinert


D`Brickashaw Ferguson is an outstanding player, but #1 Overall pick? No way.
AJ Hawk is an awesome player...but he is no Brian Urlacher or Ray Lewis

Mario Williams is an outstanding player, but we could trade down and still pick him up...

Lets trade down... pickup mario williams or AJ Hawk and then pickup some o linemen later in the draft/bytrade etc.

Everyone, the Texans have the talent... Andre Johnson I think skill wise he is a top 5 receiver in the NFL (this year he was just plagued by injuries).

Domanick Davis would be a 1800 yard guy if he was running for the chiefs seahawks or broncos
wait?
did I just say broncos...isnt gary kubiak coming over, who is the mind behind that broncos scheme that has produced so many 1000 yard men in recent years?

I hear, he's bringing his Offensive Line coach too...

David Carr has a cannon of an arm and is the 3rd best rushing qb in the nfl. He can get away from the first pass rusher...just not the 2nd...or 3rd...or 4th... or all 11...

Pitts and McKinney are both quality starters we can keep. We need 3 more starters and a TE on the offensive line.

As for defense... Robaire Smith is a big dude who can plug up holes and has the strength to disrupt offensive lines. Throw him back in the middle like his coming out days in a titans uniform. Put Jason Babin back at defensive end, hes got a whole lot of speed and he can still beef up before 2006 starts to be able to stop that run. Gary Walker is washed up...get rid of him. Travis Johnson can play the other end and maybe live up to the potential we gave him... and Seth Payne is a smart player who can still disrupt in the middle. We also have a little depth that has some experience.

Assuming we are running a 4-3... Wong Greenwood Peek Orr all look like potential starters. Wong really had a strong season back in 05, its a shame he was injured so quickly in 06.

Dante Robinson has one corner shutdown and can play with the leagues elite. As for the other 3... I do like Glenn Earl at a safety spot... and Buchanan has the talent, just teach him how to use it...sometimes you have the players you are looking for right under you nose, you just have to discipline them and coach them harder. Faggins can also come in as a nickel back and do a decent job. As for that other safety position, we definately need to address that in the draft.

Do not forget, we have a probowl kick returner, who deserves being their in hawaii.

We need to utilize the draft to its full potential and the free agency as well. This is our year to turn around.

See I can't argue with guys like this.... I'd be happy if we do trade down, and use the picks wisely......
........ Or if we drafft Young..... Nothing else makes any sense to me.

 

[Texans_Chick]

LOL! I can see the upsides to all these situations, so I will give you all of them. (I will admit I am non fond of the trade down scenario)

Let me first state that I am not sure what I want to do with the number one pick. I am still thinking what is the best move for the team but I want to hear some intelligent discussion.

I do not understand why we would take Reggie Bush first. While he has shown some great play at the college level can you justify drafting him first? We all know he will not be a 25 carry back but what could he do? He will likely be a 12 carry a game back and probably get about 4-5 catches per game. That would work out to about 16-17 touches per game. Now while some people would say what about kickoff and punt returns, would you REALLY invest that much in a guy and put him in a positon to get hit hard by the entire Special teams? There is a reason 2nd and 3rd stringers go to the special teams afterall. Based on this idea, can we really justify that much money on 17 touches a game?.

The answer is yes, Reggie is a legit #1 pick and it would be a no brainer in a year without a remarkable QB in the draft too. You can easily make an argument that he has had some of the best college years of any player. See e.g:

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/collegefootball/seasons.html

His college stats are remarkable and compare favorably with all sorts of stud all purpose backs that had success in the NFL. It is possible that he is the sort of player that redefines what a all purpose back can do. I don't see him returning kickoffs, but Mathis is already good at that.

But just as a all purpose back, you can see him being used kinda like Marshall Faulk was with the Rams. Imagine him like Mathis speed but with more football skills, balance, hands and escapability. He has great receiving hands, and certainly whenever he is in the game, the defense is going to have to respect him, especially with AJ on the field at the same time.

Even when he is not carrying the ball, just as a decoy he will scare the heck out of people and open things up. And there is no saying that we have to use him the same way USC did. And even if you did, he had a remarkable ability to get you lots of yards and TDs with few touches.

Bush is used to winning and has the swagger that comes with being a playmaker and this is something our team needs more of. A offensive minded head coach could figure out the best way for him to succeed. Kubiak already has a reputation for getting players in positions where they get to do the things that they are best at.

I do not understand why we would take Vince Young first. While he has shown some great play at the college level, can you justify drafting him first? He will likely not start at all the first season and might end up in a Phillip Rivers- Drew Brees situaiton. We know he can run in college, but he made some bad D's look awful. He never faced an NFL style Defense all year. Also, he played out of a shotgun system. Last year's number one ALex Smith played out of a shotgun system and he was horrendous. Will VY be like ALex Smith, probably not, but he wont be Steve McNair, Randall Cunningham, or McNabb his firststarting year either, if ever. Can we jutify that much money who has that many ?s.

The answer is yes, VY is a legit #1 pick and it would be a no brainer in a year without a remarkable RB. You can make the argument that he has had one of the best college seasons for a QB.

If you compare his college stats to McNair, Cunningham and McNabb's, his stats compare favorably and in some ways, blow theirs away. He has NFL QB size, he has been a winner at every level, and though no college player is assured of success in the NFL because none of them have faced NFL competition, with his ability and size, there is no reason to believe that he couldn't succeed.

He played under center in high school and some of the time in Texas. He has improved as a QB each year he has played and has demonstrated the desire and competitiveness to work hard and improve. And as remarkable as his college stats have been, you can see the possibility that he could get even better.

And with QBs, you have the face of a franchise and someone who can continue to develop and be a stud for a decade because of the longevity of good QBs careers. Though we have Carr as a QB, much of his good will has eroded with some fans, and maybe it would do the franchise good to have a new start with a new coach and QB combo. Many new coaches decide they want to go a new way with a new QB and the fans will have little patience with developing David Carr further.

VY is used to winning and has the swagger that comes with being a playmaker and this is something our team needs more of. A offensive minded head coach could figure out the best way for him to succeed. Kubiak already has a reputation for getting players in positions where they get to do the things that they are best at.

As was quoted about VY in the Washington Post: "If you were to pass this guy up and then have him become what it looks like he could become," the executive said, "you'd never forgive yourself or hear the end of it."

Link

This could also reenergize the general public fan base, and give a shot in the arm to a franchise that has become to some a national punchline.

I do not understand how we can trade down. Trading down will net us a few picks. But the fact of the matter is, this team is bad. There are a lot of holes and losing s potential difference maker is not wise. Both Bush and Young have the ability to make you pay attention to THEM. If the linebacker or safty has ot look at Bush or Young for an extra couple seconds that could help get some of our other options free. That can be the difference between extending the chains and picking up that first down and having to punt away. We cannot be the best D and O in one year so why not really build up our Offense with Kubiack? Bush and Young are picks for the future whereas trading down is a pick for now. If we draft Young or Bush, get a solid TE to throw to, and then let Kubiack find and mold his type of Olineman, we will be building a solid team.

Ok. Obviously i have presented the arguments of all three sides. Please intelligently respond by saying your choice and why. And please try to use solid arguments that do not say why a particular player "sucks". Thanks.

The general public often gets fixated on the playmakers that get national headlines. But there are all sorts of playmakers in the very deep draft that could help the team in the long term. We need help on both sides of the ball, and the biggest drop off in the team statistics were on the defensive side of the ball.

That being said, our team is not as bad as 2-14 suggests. You are what your record says you are but there were so many close games even with all the problems the team had. We played a tough early year schedule which made it difficult for a young team to get its feet under them. This combined with coaching changes and injuries to our playmakers (AJ, DD, Mathis, Walker) and problems with our secondary that were unanticipated by some made 2005 an aberration. With the sorts of depth that could be got with picks and perhaps players from a trade down, and new coaching, we can get our team in a position to compete immediately in 2006.



I could see the Texans doing any number of things with the first pick that could benefit the team. I mostly see upsides to the #1 pick this year. This post might be unintentionally funny in hindsight, but looking ahead, I think all the things I posted are legitimate positions you could take looking at this draft.

Hope you found this post helpful.

 

[thunderkyss]

LOL!This post might be unintentionally funny in hindsight, but looking ahead, I think all the things I posted are legitimate positions you could take looking at this draft.

Hope you found this post helpful.

No harm intended, but I'm having a hard time believing you're a chick.

 

[Texans_Chick]

No harm intended, but I'm having a hard time believing you're a chick.

LOL! I don't think you'd say that if you met me.

But you know, I think there are lots of women who know and love sports and the NFL in particular, it is just that they don't feel the need to say what they think about stuff. Or being uh, particularly bizarrely fanatic, like present company.

 

[Blake]

I am a fan of either Bush or Vince, but I think the trade down makes the most sense. A future first round pick, and extra 2nd, and 4th this year.

1 D'brickashaw Ferguson LT
2 Ernie Sims OLB
2 Brian Calhoun RB
3 Darryl Tapp DE
3 Nick Mangold C

thats a hell of a first day.

 

[Spoda]

i wish some people on this board could forget vince went to UT..i really do..it is impossible to have real opinions from some people when their retinas are burnt orange

Reggie Bush....amazing speed, agility , cutbacks..benches 400 lbs, can catch out of the backfield...not an every down back but can score from anywhere...but we simply don't "need" him...

Vince...6'5 blazing speed, elusive...true leader...hometown boy..wants to play here...is a winner and always has a good arm ..slightly dropped down delivery..may not matter at his height...can he throw the out? we aren't sure...he would be a great starting point...but personally i don't think we are starting over...i believe the coaches dragged us down..not the players..we simply don't "need" him

trade down...this is the mose hyped top 3 ever...this is said to be the deepest draft ever...we have many holes although we aren't quite sure where because the coaching was so bad...4-3 or 3-4? can babin or peek play end in 4-3? can peek play anywhere except on passing downs? is our secondary just pure trash? or did we play soft zone ever single play with not a sniff of a pass rush making it impossible to cover? can dominick/wells/morency carry the load with the new coaches? will wells be back? and most importantly is carr trash or were the coaches holding him back and trying to "keep it close" and not trying to win? what and who do we actually need?

my vote is to trade down and take mario williams or jimmy williams or aj hawk..defense wins...i believe the coaches killed us and our offense will be fine...
if we don't trade take bush at least he will add something and soon...
i believe taking vince means we wasted 4 years and we start over..and we'll have to wait 2 more years at least..because if we are bad enough to start over...then this team is just terrible and a rookie QB will struggle

 

[Glacier]

i believe taking vince means we wasted 4 years and we start over..and we'll have to wait 2 more years at least..because if we are bad enough to start over...then this team is just terrible and a rookie QB will struggle

You know....this is such a true statement. I am a believer in Vince now....I wasn't prior to this season. I wanted him to play WR. I wanted Mack Brown fired too btw....

I don't think he is the only piece Houston needs. I think Carr really needs a good QB coach and O coordinator. Thing is, if Carr ISN'T the answer, and you figure this out later on, you missed out on Wheinhart AND Vince Young if you take Bush.....it might take another 2-14 season before being in a position to take a decent QB. Even then, you risk the bust...Wheinhart and Vince will play in the NFL and be successful where ever they are......

 

[Corrosion]

What it boils down to is simple .... David Carr , Is he the man to lead this team .

If so you do one of two things depending on how you have graded the prospects other than Young ..... Starting w/ Bush If you have him graded far and above the rest of the field you take him even if he wont see 25 touches a game .
If he doesnt grade so well you trade down to 4 w/ the Jets and take either AJ Hawk (LB) or Mario Williams (DE) . (Williams pending the switch to a 4-3) This team is desperate for another playmaker on the defensive side of the ball .

If it happens that the Coaches and GM arent so conVinced that Carr is the right guy you take Young and sit him a year or two behind Carr then look to fill the O-line in round two .

This whole thing revolves around what management thinks about David Carr .

 

[jerek]

When we pick VY are you still gonna be a fan ?

Of course.

I like Carr and think he should be able to succeed here. But if we draft Vince, fine, I will be first in line to welcome the new guy the squad.

I am a fan of the Houston Texans, whether we draft Vince Young or Chuck E Cheese.

And to answer the original question, which was a well written post, I am not sure which I want right now. I would like to see what Bush can do but I guess I am still convinced we can get the most value out trading the pick.

And agreed with corrosion, really the question centers around DC. If you don't like him for our future, you draft Young. If you do, then it becomes a question of Bush/trade. I have heard speculation that we might be able to get Jon Abraham from the Jets for the first pick, which would be a good start on the defensive side of things.