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Game 8...Silver And Black...Oakland Raiders!

KA4Texan

Clueless Wonder
Contributor's Club
With NE it's both. The coach and system. That's why they are what they are.
I agree, but the discussion goes round and round for many people..like the NFL equivalent of the chicken or the egg..... but that was my point.

Under a good HC people would make the arguement for the success of the team being on the HC, others the QB.

Under OB... there is no such debate... it is Watson that elevates OB despite the fact that OB is an anchor around his neck.
 

ATXtexanfan

Hall of Fame
I agree, but the discussion goes round and round for many people..like the NFL equivalent of the chicken or the egg..... but that was my point.

Under a good HC people would make the arguement for the success of the team being on the HC, others the QB.

Under OB... there is no such debate... it is Watson that elevates OB despite the fact that OB is an anchor around his neck.
I can not argue this post
 
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ATXtexanfan

Hall of Fame
I agree, but the discussion goes round and round for many people..like the NFL equivalent of the chicken or the egg..... but that was my point.

Under a good HC people would make the arguement for the success of the team being on the HC, others the QB.

Under OB... there is no such debate... it is Watson that elevates OB despite the fact that OB is an anchor around his neck.
This offense at it's best due to RPO or Watson off script. OB is a fraud
 
It's amazing how many times we say this. Maybe, just maybe we're over estimating our team.
Maybe some people are underestimating the Raiders. Teams who have appeared better than us have beaten teams seemingly worse than us to close wins. Sometimes the seemingly better teams lose to the seemingly worse teams. What matters is the final record and how well playoff bound teams are playing to close out the season.
 

Norg

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
there were a lot of raiders fans yesterday … I was quite confused tho they have some die hards cus there losing there team there leaving Oakland ..??? and I know 95% of the fans there dont live in vegas …???
 

eriadoc

Texan-American
It's amazing how many times we say this. Maybe, just maybe we're over estimating our team.
Well, on offense, you have Watson, Hopkins, Stills, Fuller, and Coutee. Throw in a couple TEs that are actually decent receivers and you have, on paper, what should be one of the most formidable passing attacks in the NFL. Duke Johnson is largely regarded as one of the best receiving backs in football, and despite being written off by many, Hyde is having himself a decent season. The team spent 4 draft picks on OL this year, another on TE, and maybe a free agent or two in that area as well. This should add up to one of the most formidable overall offenses in the NFL. And you see that it is from time to time. There's really only one ingredient I can think of that is bad.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
I agree, but the discussion goes round and round for many people..like the NFL equivalent of the chicken or the egg..... but that was my point.

Under a good HC people would make the argument for the success of the team being on the HC, others the QB.

Under OB... there is no such debate... it is Watson that elevates OB despite the fact that OB is an anchor around his neck.
Oh, there's debate alright, You just dont want to hear the debate. For instance the offense has been changed to fit Watson's skillset. Yet he's still often throwing into double coverage and missing reads. Is Watson the best QB in franchise history? Yes, Is Watson Jesusincleats as some around here think/want him to be? Nope, not even close.

Is Watson still a young learning QB? Spot On
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Well, on offense, you have Watson, Hopkins, Stills, Fuller, and Coutee. Throw in a couple TEs that are actually decent receivers and you have, on paper, what should be one of the most formidable passing attacks in the NFL. Duke Johnson is largely regarded as one of the best receiving backs in football, and despite being written off by many, Hyde is having himself a decent season. The team spent 4 draft picks on OL this year, another on TE, and maybe a free agent or two in that area as well. This should add up to one of the most formidable overall offenses in the NFL. And you see that it is from time to time. There's really only one ingredient I can think of that is bad.
Inconsistent play from the young QB?
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Ones thing’s for sure. All those off-script amazing TDs or runs for positive gains are NOT because of Professor Butt Chin, as much as a few posters here would want to make everyone believe. Watson going full magician mode is all Watson!
You can't make a living off of those kinds of plays. In fact you will lose games and have lost games that way. Hence the inconsistencies. Watson really needs to learn to read defenses better

Can he do it, this remains to be seen, but so far I haven't seen alot of progress

One things for sure BOB changed the offense and posters are still calling him inflexible.

Yes BoB's too conservative for my liking, but he's not inflexible. Also I think BOB and Watson's style of play are a terrible mix.

With this said, Watson is the best QB in franchise history and that's kind of sad.
 

eriadoc

Texan-American
Ones thing’s for sure. All those off-script amazing TDs or runs for positive gains are NOT because of Professor Butt Chin, as much as a few posters here would want to make everyone believe that it’s because of him. Watson going full magician mode is all Watson!
Oh, I'd say a fair bit of that is because of O'Brien. If Watson were in a good offense, he wouldn't need to be a magician. ;)
 

KA4Texan

Clueless Wonder
Contributor's Club
Oh, there's debate alright, You just dont want to hear the debate. For instance the offense has been changed to fit Watson's skillset. Yet he's still often throwing into double coverage and missing reads. Is Watson the best QB in franchise history? Yes, Is Watson Jesusincleats as some around here think/want him to be? Nope, not even close.

Is Watson still a young learning QB? Spot On
Who says I dont want to hear it? I dont see DW as Jesus in cleats..... I just dont believe our biggest problem is DW's bad throws or poor choices... I made a ton of bad choices when I was his age too and didnt have even half the eyes on me as he does... he will learn.

Absolutely... there is growing needed on his part HOWEVER IF he is hindered by the very one that should be helping him .... is that REALLY all on him?

Just cause my focus is on the cancer that is in the Texans body (OB) doesnt mean Ive forgotten about its cold (DW).

One needs to be dealt with swiftly by removal before it spreads to others... the other, will just naturally get better given time..... UNLESS the cancer destroys it too.

Given a better headcoach I WOULD expect far more from DW... til then... Luke Skywalker is being taught by Jarjar. (I dont even like Starwars and I had to go there)
 

thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
One things for sure BOB changed the offense and posters are still calling him inflexible
I'm almost convinced what they see as inflexible is really Watson's read of the defense & the adjustments made pre-snap.

Offense looks better when they run uptempo.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Who says I dont want to hear it? I dont see DW as Jesus in cleats..... I just dont believe our biggest problem is DW's bad throws or poor choices... I made a ton of bad choices when I was his age too and didnt have even half the eyes on me as he does... he will learn.

Absolutely... there is growing needed on his part HOWEVER IF he is hindered by the very one that should be helping him .... is that REALLY all on him?

Just cause my focus is on the cancer that is in the Texans body (OB) doesnt mean Ive forgotten about its cold (DW).

One needs to be dealt with swiftly by removal before it spreads to others... the other, will just naturally get better given time..... UNLESS the cancer destroys it too.

Given a better headcoach I WOULD expect far more from DW... til then... Luke Skywalker is being taught by Jarjar. (I dont even like Starwars and I had to go there)
Who is this better HC?
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
I'm almost convinced what they see as inflexible is really Watson's read of the defense & the adjustments made pre-snap.

Offense looks better when they run uptempo.
Hopefully he's reading defenses better, but he's missing far too many open WR's.

Every offense looks better up tempo, you cant run uptempo with a bunch of penaties though.
 

KA4Texan

Clueless Wonder
Contributor's Club
Who is this better HC?
I dont have the perfect answer for this.... but I do know this... searching is better than settling.

OB had his chance, he is just lucky Im not the one that decides if he stays or goes. As I have said before, I have nothing against the man personally.

Who knows... maybe the next guy makes me miss OB like OB made me miss Kubiak... but Id rather that risk than remain in limbo for the next..... 18 extensions for even OB's supporters to finally run out of excuses.

You like him, thats fine. Im just tired of trying the same thing expecting a different result.

The short answer... just about anyone but OB.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Also I think BOB and Watson's style of play are a terrible mix.
This has become painfully apparent …

OB's scheme favors a pure pocket passer type and Watson's at his best outside the pocket.

The two just don't mix , Asking Watson to read a defense like Tom Brady or be as accurate as Drew Brees is just a fools errand and that's what I take away from watching this disaster.

That's no knock on Watson - They are arguably the best at it in the history of the league , reading / manipulating defenses and being pinpoint accurate are what sets those guys apart from everyone else in the history of the game and what has kept them in the league for literally two decades.

(Honestly I wonder if either of those guys would be able to "Run OB's scheme" He'd probably ask them to run bootlegs).

Watson would be much better off in a WCO type scheme with a lot of stuff designed to get him outside the tackles where he can put pressure on defenses with his legs and they most certainly have to honor that threat …while he gains the experience of reading and understanding those defenses and how to manipulate them himself.




I agree with this statement. The question then is, which would you rather keep if you had to choose one? Or do you prefer to continue on and try to force a square peg in a round hole?
Neither,

I would like a fresh start.
Unless the coach is Belichick …. I'd rather have a player with Watson's ability. So the obvious answer is keeping Watson and running OB out of town …. and making sure the replacement HC/OC runs a scheme that's compatible with Watson's abilities.

Talents like Watson are few and far between …. This franchise has been hunting that guy at that position since their very first draft pick.

I don't want to go thru another 3-5 year period of Broken Schaub , Keenum , Savage , Hoyerable , FitzTragic and the likes. That's painful to watch and no fun as a fan.

If they hadn't drafted one of Watson / Mahomes that year , I may have just written the franchise off and found something better to do on Sundays.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
I dont have the perfect answer for this.... but I do know this... searching is better than settling.

OB had his chance, he is just lucky Im not the one that decides if he stays or goes. As I have said before, I have nothing against the man personally.

Who knows... maybe the next guy makes me miss OB like OB made me miss Kubiak... but Id rather that risk than remain in limbo for the next..... 18 extensions for even OB's supporters to finally run out of excuses.

You like him, thats fine. Im just tired of trying the same thing expecting a different result.

The short answer... just about anyone but OB.
This isn't a matter of liking BOB or liking BOB more than Kubiak. I don't really like either one as a HC. They're avg, I do like both of them personally and think they are fine people.

Speaking of BOB/Watson, some fans aren't going to like it much when they figure out BOB isn't going anywhere and when Caerio gets here if Watson doesn't improve Caserio may draft or trade for another QB and move on in a new direction.

BOB and Watson's a bad mix and Watson will be the one to leave. They will get the draft picks everybody is clamoring for. Why do I think this? Because the way BOB is currently using Watson, letting Watson be Watson is going to result in another ACL injury.

As a franchise you can do these sorts of things when you sell out every game regardless of the product they put on the field.
 

Earl34

Rookie
Seems like more posters are taking SteelB faulty assumption that Watson is so bad at reading defenses and is not progressing.

Before you follow SteelB down that rabbit hole, ask yourself. How do you account for Watson’s production?

Surely other young QBs are having similar success, right? By all accounts Bruce Arians is a better offensive mind than O’Brien. Surely, he can simply cut the field in half and have Winston performing similar to Watson.

Quick. Mariota is about to get run out of Nashville. Someone give Vrabel a call. According to posters on this forum, your QB don’t need to be able to read defenses to produce like Watson.

Does anyone else find it hilarious that posters are expecting a young QB with a questionable OC to dissect defenses like Brees and Brady? Shouldn’t a fair comparison be Brees and Brady in their second year?
 
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thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Does anyone else find it hilarious that posters are expecting a young QB with a questionable OC to dissect defenses like Brees and Brady? Shouldn’t a fair comparison be Brees and Brady In their second year?
I think this level of rhetoric misses the point of the conversation entirely.

I don't expect him to be playing at the level of Brady/Brees. I do expect him to see, before the ball is snapped, where the double coverage is & where you have Fells mismatched on a route that should come open.

Look at that play on the goal line. He tries to force it to Watson. Fells waves his hand saying he is open way before the ball is thrown.
 
Brees was doing such a great job reading defenses, the Chargers felt the need to draft Phillip Rivers to replace him. In his second year, Brady was reading defenses at such a high level he was asked to be a game manager.
Not sure who you think is asking Watson to be Brady or Brees but he is missing a lot of open guys. Honestly I think it has more to do with his line being bad right now. You saw it in the Chiefs and Falcon game when he felt he could trust the line he took an extra second to see if anyone is open. When he feels he can't trust the line he goes with his first read most likely because he thinks he'll be running for his life in that extra second. Honestly not sure what you do about that because you can't blame him really. If I had 300 lb guys slam me into the dirt 60+ times over an 18 week period I'd be gun shy to.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Seems like more posters are taking SteelB faulty assumption that Watson is so bad at reading defenses and is not progressing.

Before you follow SteelB down that rabbit hole, ask yourself. How do you account for Watson’s production?

Surely other young QBs are having similar success, right? By all accounts Bruce Arians is a better offensive mind than O’Brien. Surely, he can simply cut the field in half and have Winston performing similar to Watson.

Quick. Mariota is about to get run out of Nashville. Someone give Vrabel a call. According to posters on this forum, your QB don’t need to be able to read defenses to produce like Watson.

Does anyone else find it hilarious that posters are expecting a young QB with a questionable OC to dissect defenses like Brees and Brady? Shouldn’t a fair comparison be Brees and Brady In their second year?
I don't think anyone is agreeing with it. Maybe just tired of countering it a million times every day.

QBs who are bad at reading defenses don't play this well. It doesn't happen
 
It's extremely hard to find a great QB. Watson could potentially be our first. There is no way in hell I would start over unless he all of a sudden turns into Mitch Trubisky. I sat through years of unwatchable QB play from Ftizpatrick, Hoyer, Osweiler and the long list of eternal back up QBs we kept using. I'm not willing to suffer through that without 100% certainty Watson isn't the guy and I personally think he is.
 

Earl34

Rookie
Not sure who you think is asking Watson to be Brady or Brees but he is missing a lot of open guys. Honestly I think it has more to do with his line being bad right now. You saw it in the Chiefs and Falcon game when he felt he could trust the line he took an extra second to see if anyone is open. When he feels he can't trust the line he goes with his first read most likely because he thinks he'll be running for his life in that extra second. Honestly not sure what you do about that because you can't blame him really. If I had 300 lb guys slam me into the dirt 60+ times over an 18 week period I'd be gun shy to.
This is a great, logical and reasonable post. It’s more realistic than some of drivel being posted about one read, half the field, etc.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Not sure who you think is asking Watson to be Brady or Brees but he is missing a lot of open guys. Honestly I think it has more to do with his line being bad right now. You saw it in the Chiefs and Falcon game when he felt he could trust the line he took an extra second to see if anyone is open. When he feels he can't trust the line he goes with his first read most likely because he thinks he'll be running for his life in that extra second. Honestly not sure what you do about that because you can't blame him really. If I had 300 lb guys slam me into the dirt 60+ times over an 18 week period I'd be gun shy to.

You're spot on Maverick but this is the reason why some of us believe this type of narrative is clouding a few members minds.



Speaking of BOB/Watson, some fans aren't going to like it much when they figure out BOB isn't going anywhere and when Caerio gets here if Watson doesn't improve Caserio may draft or trade for another QB and move on in a new direction.

BOB and Watson's a bad mix and Watson will be the one to leave. They will get the draft picks everybody is clamoring for. Why do I thinkthis? Because the way BOB is currently using Watson, lettingWatsonbeWatson is going to result in another ACL injury.
 

thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
This is a great, logical and reasonable post. It’s more realistic than some of drivel being posted about one read, half the field, etc.
I agree with that. The guy spouting one read & run is... well.

I will say that I was hoping BO'b would incorporate some of that into his offense though. Not because Watson wasn't smart enough, but because the OL is so bad.

Get Watson out of the pocket. Move the pocket, whatever you want to call it, but that does take away half the field.

One read & run, or one read & chuck it. Get the ball out of his hands so he can live to take another snap.

But that's totally different than saying this guy who graduated college in 2.5 years is too dumb.
 
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Mr teX

Hall of Fame
You are a difficult guy to please.
Seems to be the case with just about every fan here.

2013: FIRE KUBIAK and his predictable as offense!..we're not going anywhere with him...........................(Kubiak fired in later in the season..)
2014: Fitzpatrick? why aren't we going after Mallet? he's right there, just go get him!............................(Mallet signed late in the preseason)
2015: Mallet should be starting over Hoyer!.........Should've gave up whatever it took to move up & get Garrapolo last year!..................................................(Mallet shits the bed on the field and is eventually booted from the team...we go after Oz the next season)
2016: Osweiler is quite possibly the worst starter ever! What are we doing drafting a WR. Paxton Lynch was right there!....All we need is a qb to get us over the hump!.....(draft DW4 in 2017)
2017: His injury history is awful, should've moved up to get mahomes........
2018: Why did we take 2 TE's!?!? We've been needing o-linemen for like 6786 years! when is this team gonna learn! Need a new offensive scheme/HC! (team goes on historic 9 game win streak putting up offensive #'s close to the 2011-2012 team)
2019: The JD trade...we won't have any draft picks for 324 years!......:overreact: Fire BoB he's the worst! (team currently 5-3)


it just never ends with the hindsight, everything-is-FUBAR crowd....It's why I've been slowly weaning myself from posting. I mostly just lurk now. Everyone outside of Kirby apparently knows exactly what needs to be done.
 

dream_team

All Pro
Seems to be the case with just about every fan here.

2013: FIRE KUBIAK and his predictable as offense!..we're not going anywhere with him...........................(Kubiak fired in later in the season..)
2014: Fitzpatrick? why aren't we going after Mallet? he's right there, just go get him!............................(Mallet signed late in the preseason)
2015: Mallet should be starting over Hoyer!.........Should've gave up whatever it took to move up & get Garrapolo last year!..................................................(Mallet shits the bed on the field and is eventually booted from the team...we go after Oz the next season)
2016: Osweiler is quite possibly the worst starter ever! What are we doing drafting a WR. Paxton Lynch was right there!....All we need is a qb to get us over the hump!.....(draft DW4 in 2017)
2017: His injury history is awful, should've moved up to get mahomes........
2018: Why did we take 2 TE's!?!? We've been needing o-linemen for like 6786 years! when is this team gonna learn! Need a new offensive scheme/HC! (team goes on historic 9 game win streak putting up offensive #'s close to the 2011-2012 team)
2019: The JD trade...we won't have any draft picks for 324 years!......:overreact: Fire BoB he's the worst! (team currently 5-3)


it just never ends with the hindsight, everything-is-FUBAR crowd....It's why I've been slowly weaning myself from posting. I mostly just lurk now. Everyone outside of Kirby apparently knows exactly what needs to be done.
I hear ya, fans are very fickle. I get it. But if you want a franchise QB... regardless whether you like Watson's game or not, you cannot deny he's a "franchise QB". I mean, most commentators have him listed as a top 5 MVP candidate. Vegas has him as a top 5 favorite to win MVP. It does NOT make any sense at all to let him go and try all over again w/ another QB? In the NFL, finding an MVP level QB is the hardest thing to do.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
I hear ya, fans are very fickle. I get it. But if you want a franchise QB... regardless whether you like Watson's game or not, you cannot deny he's a "franchise QB". I mean, most commentators have him listed as a top 5 MVP candidate. Vegas has him as a top 5 favorite to win MVP. It does NOT make any sense at all to let him go and try all over again w/ another QB? In the NFL, finding an MVP level QB is the hardest thing to do.

Lol exactly. I told you gents some months ago, that when Steel does not like certain players/people. Dude will go out his way to push his agenda. No way in heck will we get rid of Watson and keep Obrien. Currently both are here to stay for a hot minute.
 

santo

All Pro
Contributor's Club
No, but my guess is O'Brien sees that Hyde can't pass catch, and that Duke can't run up the middle, so he wants a guy who can do both
Only way he gets him if he trades one of our players and some more draft picks. lol
 


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