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Draft Bush Petition ... It's Coming

jerek

jerek

Pro Hobbyist
Just so you know.

There has been recent talk on the radio regarding 97.9's "Get Vince or Else Petition."

In the spirit of friendly competition, and because I and a good number of others do not believe that the Texans should draft Vince Young, I and some friends have created a "Draft Reggie" petition.

97.9 is talking some serious game about how far they are going to take this petition. Well, for you Texans fans who would like to draft Reggie, or even if you like Carr and want to see us trade the pick ... this petition is going to need your John Hancock.

I have registered the domain and will have the petition up soon, hopefully this time tomorrow (given how long it takes the domain name to propagate across the net)

And no, this isn't I-hate-Vince, this is, I would rather us do something else with the pick. So fire away with whatever, but I am simply posting this as a public service announcement of sorts. Besides, seems like it will be a good time, don't it?

Stay tuned ...
 
Some enterprising indiviidual needs to create and produce some T-shirts
with each sides preference: "Texans for Vince" or "Texans for Reggie"
and make a few bucks. Have we got any entrepreneurs in Houston ?
 
jerek said:
There has been recent talk on the radio regarding 97.9's "Get Vince or Else Petition."
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Just one question. Who listens to 97.9?
 
Lucky said:
Just one question. Who listens to 97.9?
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Hahahaha. Good stuff. It is one of my six speed dials ... I get itchy radio finger driving, and I happened on the announcement last night. My understanding is that 610 or some other outlet announced this petition as well, as an FYI.

Unimportant or not, I will not stand idly by while 97.9 tries to run David Carr out of town in favor of the local poster boy. Far more importantly, tries to get McNair to draft Young instead of using that pick on something else that I and many others deem more important.

Again, this is not a screw-Vince thread ... but if McNair is going to be served with petitions about "what the fans want" he is going to hear both sides of the tale.

I will announce the site once it is up, I am waiting for the domain name to propagate right now. GoDaddy for $2.45 ... hell yeah.

Flame away.
 
:( this is just pathetic.

Why cant people let the professionals we are paying millions of dollars to decide what is best for the team?


I think some people are taking our team's name way too seriously.
 
Why cant people let the professionals we are paying millions of dollars to decide what is best for the team?
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Because we see where the decisions of these "professionals" have gotten us to this point. Given this, I'm sure they will take Reggie considering that he means nothing to the Houston community (unlike Vince) and would do nothing to address our needs (unlike trading the pick).

Yes, drafting Bush would be a very "Texans" thing to do.
 
ahhh.. so the professionals arent doing their job... wow..and they just got here too. Or do you mean Casserly? im not going over that again but Casserly's drafts have actually been pretty good.

I bet 90% of the people signing that petition couldnt tell you the difference between a half back and a cornerback. Its all hype.
 
im not going over that again but Casserly's drafts have actually been pretty good.
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wow :shocked

Chester Pitts instead of Clinton Portis
Fred Weary instead of Seth McKinney
Bennie Joppru instead of Anquan Boldin
Seth Wand instead of Derrick Dockery
Dave Ragone instead of Chris Simms
Travis Johnson instead of Derrick Johnson

and so on....
 
you cant judge draft success by who we COULD have had. hindsight is 20/20.. judge the drafts by how useful the players WE got are.

and all the tsips bring up TJ instead of Johnson. Johnson wasnt exactly great last season.. you should be arguing that we didnt get Odell Thurman or one of the other players that actually played well last season.
 
I'm not talking about the picks that were bad in hindsight (I didn't even list those), I'm talking about the picks that were obviously bad the moment they were made.

And yes, Derrick Johnson is a VASTLY better pro player than Travis Johnson, just as he was a vastly better college player and a vastly better prospect.
 
and you are vastly overstating the meager difference between Derrick and Travis. You havent even seen Travis in the new defense.

Chester Pitts is a pick that was obviously bad?
Bennie Joppru was? why..because of his extensive injury history?
Dave Ragone was? bull..i didnt see anyone on here talking about how we missed out on Simms.

None of those were obviously bad picks when they were made. They are only bad in hindsight.. and some of em arent even bad in hindsight, like Pitts.
 
Grid said:
you cant judge draft success by who we COULD have had. hindsight is 20/20.. judge the drafts by how useful the players WE got are.

and all the tsips bring up TJ instead of Johnson. Johnson wasnt exactly great last season.. you should be arguing that we didnt get Odell Thurman or one of the other players that actually played well last season.
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Or Lufa Tattuuatata(sp) from Seatle
 
If those aren't obviously bad picks, then I guess I should be the GM, because I could have immediately told you they were foolish.
 
Caesar said:
If those aren't obviously bad picks, then I guess I should be the GM, because I could have immediately told you they were foolish.
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You obviously don't need a longer arm for patting yourself on the back. Real GM's passed on every one of those players where in hindsight they might not have.

ex. Anquan Boldin picked after 5 other WR's--only one close to as successful, AJ a fact you leave out in your analysis--the Texans weren't going to pick two WR's in a row. Clinton Portis was picked after 3 other RB's, none as successful.
 
Caesar said:
Given this, I'm sure they will take Reggie considering that he means nothing to the Houston community (unlike Vince)
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Sorry, I am not trying to be sarcastic, BUT, I never heard of Vince Young until this past year. He means nothing to me and I have lived in the Houston area 60 years!!! Just because he is from Houston and HELPED take the Longhorns to the National Championship, does NOT make him a hero in everyone's eyes. He did not win that game all by himself, and PLEASE spare me all the stats, etc, etc, etc. Pro players don't have to BE from a community to be part of it when they get here. This garbage about drafting VY because he is a local boy is getting old and tiresome. Anyone remember Steve McKinney??? Local boy who hasn't done squat for the Texans!! JMO!!
 
If you hadn't heard of Vince Young until the past year, then you've obviously been living in a cave for a while. And yes, VY does mean a lot to the Houston community, and to the state of Texas. Reggie Bush is just another over-hyped player from California.
 
I understand Houstonians are proud of Beyonce as well... think she could play tight end?


Seriously.. what does the cities opinion of the player have to do with whether or not he is the best pick for the team? We are looking to win games..not popularity contests.
 
Seriously.. what does the cities opinion of the player have to do with whether or not he is the best pick for the team? We are looking to win games..not popularity contests.
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That's true, which is why, objectively speaking, the best thing to do is trade the pick so we can address our needs. If you're going to take a player you don't need, you take the local phenom who will sell tickets and merchandise, and create the most excitement around the franchise.... not Reggie Bush. Taking Bush would be indefesible, and it would come across as a slap in the face to the local community and the UT fanbase, the latter of which is still indignant about being spat on with the Derrick Johnson debacle last year.

If they want to do what's "best for the team", address your needs, don't take some California guy to play at the deepest position on the team.
 
If they think Bush is the best choice for the team.. I will support that. Honestly I think he is a bigger need than Vince Young. Personally I am in favor of the trade down though. Its a deep draft and Bush and Young arent the only elite prospects that will be available in the top 5-10

Seriously though.. anyone who takes it personally that we would take Bush over Young... is way too sensitive. It isnt a slight on Texas.. its just the front office taking the player they think will be the biggest help for their franchise. Where Bush comes from and where Young comes from should never even enter the equation.
 
Seriously though.. anyone who takes it personally that we would take Bush over Young... is way too sensitive. It isnt a slight on Texas.. its just the front office taking the player they think will be the biggest help for their franchise.
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If this were the first time it had happened, I could agree with that. But it's kinda hard to swallow with all the other times they've slighted UT players (and fans), especially last years "Johnson vs. Johnson" blunder. It's getting hard to take it as anything other than a slap in the face.
 
well then take it as a slap in the face.. but you are wrong and you are too sensitive.

Johnson wasnt the best choice for the team. And he didnt exactly have a great rookie season either..in case you missed that. You are looking for something to take umbrage to.

As for Travis Johnson.. whether he was worth the pick or not is still debatable...Neither Derrick or Travis has proved anything on an NFL level yet.. so saying we made the wrong choice is just...illogical..at this point.

But taking any of our personel moves personally is just foolish. We make the best choice for the team..period. This is the NFL, you take the best talent you can get, the players hometown or where they went to college doesnt even enter the equation. Just because we havent taken every UT grad that we possibly could have, that doesnt mean we have some kind of beef with UT. We havent taken every A&M, Texas Tech, Rice, or whoever else grad either.
 
This is the NFL, you take the best talent you can get, the players hometown or where they went to college doesnt even enter the equation.
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I guess we just have to disagree on this, then. I think that you take the players you need. I would be okay with passing on Young if they were to trade and then take a player at a need position. But to pass on a guy that means so much to this city only to draft another guy we don't need is indeed a slap in the face. They're statements are inconsistent. They say they will not take Yound because they are committed to Carr. Are they telling Domanick Davis, who has been more productive and dependable than Carr, that they are NOT committed to him? It's nonsense.


Just because we havent taken every UT grad that we possibly could have, that doesnt mean we have some kind of beef with UT. We havent taken every A&M, Texas Tech, Rice, or whoever else grad either.
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There's a difference between not taking EVERY UT grad possible, and not taking ANY (other than Sloan Thomas in the 7th round), especially when quality Texas players have been available at need positions, and they have taken lesser players instead. No, they have not taken EVERY A&M, Tech, and Rice player either. Rice doesn't produce many NFL players and Tech doesn't have a huge alumni base in Houston. While Houston doesn't take every Aggie available, they have certainly catered to them much more than UT (Aaron Glenn, Steve McKinney, etc.).
 
SheTexan said:
Sorry, I am not trying to be sarcastic, BUT, I never heard of Vince Young until this past year. He means nothing to me and I have lived in the Houston area 60 years!!! Just because he is from Houston and HELPED take the Longhorns to the National Championship, does NOT make him a hero in everyone's eyes. He did not win that game all by himself, and PLEASE spare me all the stats, etc, etc, etc. Pro players don't have to BE from a community to be part of it when they get here. This garbage about drafting VY because he is a local boy is getting old and tiresome. Anyone remember Steve McKinney??? Local boy who hasn't done squat for the Texans!! JMO!!
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sounds like you need to leave the Draft discussions to people who actually watch college football.

If you're from Houston, and you didn't know who VY was until this year... jesus
 
your fishing for something to be mad about.

They have taken lesser players when they could have taken UT players? whatever.. the only example of that that I can think of isnt really an example at all. Taking Travis Johnson instead of Derrick Johnson was not us taking a "lesser player" to avoid taking a UT player. We felt TJ was a better prospect, and a bigger need.

yes.. we had two A&M players on the team.. both of which are veterans acquired in the first season to meet team needs. We havent shown a penchant for drafting plays from one school over another... except maybe players from South Carolina because it is Mr McNairs college.

sorry there is no logic behind your claims. Its all in your head.. you want every UT graduate playing for your hometown team. While I can understand the gesture... just because it isnt happening doesnt mean they have some kind of distaste for UT grads. I dont see A&M people screaming for Reggie McNeal.. or Texas St. people screaming for Barrick Neally or Texas Tech people screaming for Dwayne Slay. Why is that? because some people seem to understand that once you get to the NFL level, college allegiance means nothing.. at least in regards to who is best for the team.
 
We felt TJ was a better prospect, and a bigger need.
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Well, if that's how the Texans' decision makers think, it's no wonder we only managed two wins this year. So the Texans get rid of their best LB (Sharper) and then have the chance to draft a guy that many considered top 5 caliber, but instead of that, they draft an overweight tackle with a wrap sheet who many experts projected as an early second round pick. That kind of brilliant talent assessment permeated this year's 2-14 record.

As far as other college fans demanding that their players be drafted, I have to disagree with you. If the Texans had a chance to take Reggie McNeal, Barrick Nealy, or Dwayne Slay, and then turned around and drafted a different player of lesser caliber, or at a position of lesser need, then the fans of those schools darn sure would be up in arms over it. It's happened several times for Texas fans. I don't demand that they go into the '06 draft planning to take Rod Wright, or Michael Huff, or Jonathan Scott, or David Thomas, or Aaron Harris, or Cedric Griffin. But if one of those players is available when the Texans pick, and they are the best player available at a position of need, then you bet I demand it. I won't get my hopes up though. UT fans have been burned too many times to think the Texans care about what we want.
 
I dunno how else to explain it..

This seems like common sense stuff to me... I dont know how to explain that we may take a player at a position that you dont consider as good as a UT player at that position, but that our scouts rated the other guy higher. I dont know how to explain that we may pass on a player at a needed position to draft another player at a position that isnt as great a need, but we feel will have a better chance of becoming a playmaker at the pro level. I dont know how to explain that we may pass on a player that seems really talented, because he doesnt fit our system. I dont know how to explain that talent, not alma mater, is the only important factor that our front office sees. How do I explain that when our FO drafts a player of so called "lesser caliber" instead of a houstonian.. that they dont see the player they are drafting as lesser caliber? How do I explain that our very large staff of scouts knows more about college prospects than we do?

Its like trying to explain how to walk. All I can tell you is to put one leg in front of the other.. if that isnt enough of an explaination, then you are on your own.
 
Grid said:
well then take it as a slap in the face.. but you are wrong and you are too sensitive.

Johnson wasnt the best choice for the team. And he didnt exactly have a great rookie season either..in case you missed that. You are looking for something to take umbrage to.

As for Travis Johnson.. whether he was worth the pick or not is still debatable...Neither Derrick or Travis has proved anything on an NFL level yet.. so saying we made the wrong choice is just...illogical..at this point.
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I agree that these claims are being taken too personal and these people are too sensitive.

HOWEVER, Derrick Johnson was considered a better prospect than Travis Johnson by apparently every team except the Texans. (www.nfldraftcountdown.com had him listed as the 8th best prospect, TJ was 25th)Passing on DJ was ridiculous! It doesn't however prove that the Texans have some sort of problem w/ UT players. What it DOES prove is that the Texans have a serious problem evaluating talent (and this move wasn't the only example BTW.)

I wouldn't necessarily say that DJ has proven anything in the NFL, but his numbers weren't too shabby, especially playing for a KC defense that was/is struggling.

Derrick Johnson (4.55 in 40)
Started 16 games as a Rookie
95 total tackles, 79 solo & 16 assisted
2 sacks, 2 FF, 1 FR, 5 PD

Jason Babin (4.69 in 40)
Started 16 games as a Rookie in 2004
63 total tackles, 51 solo & 12 assisted
4 sacks, 2 FR, 5 PD
(2005 was less impressive w/ 12 starts)

Clearly DJ would have helped our linebacking corp; especially after they had just released Sharper. Just another stupid decision by management, but I can't believe that they have an issue w/ taking players from a certain college (UT.):twocents:
 
AustinJB said:
Derrick Johnson (4.55 in 40)
Started 16 games as a Rookie
95 total tackles, 79 solo & 16 assisted
2 sacks, 2 FF, 1 FR, 5 PD

Jason Babin (4.69 in 40)
Started 16 games as a Rookie in 2004
63 total tackles, 51 solo & 12 assisted
4 sacks, 2 FR, 5 PD
(2005 was less impressive w/ 12 starts)

Clearly DJ would have helped our linebacking corp; especially after they had just released Sharper. Just another stupid decision by management, but I can't believe that they have an issue w/ taking players from a certain college (UT.):twocents:
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Not to take anything away from DJ, but you really can't compare stats from a 4-3 OLB and a 3-4 OLB. Morlon Greenwood had 108 tackles his last year as a 4-3 OLB. Try comparing him to someone like Keith Brooking or Derrick Brooks--guys that play in a 4-3.
 
infantrycak said:
Not to take anything away from DJ, but you really can't compare stats from a 4-3 OLB and a 3-4 OLB. Morlon Greenwood had 108 tackles his last year as a 4-3 OLB. Try comparing him to someone like Keith Brooking or Derrick Brooks--guys that play in a 4-3.
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I do believe DJ would have been a worthwhile acquisition, and I do believe TJ wasn't necessarily the best pick we could have made.

That said, I don't believe we made the decision as part of some ongoing conspiracy to avoid drafting UT players. That is just stupid.

And I meant to put that petition up, I probably still will, when I have time to program it this weekend. Sorry, things have been insane around my piece lately.
 
jerek said:
I do believe DJ would have been a worthwhile acquisition, and I do believe TJ wasn't necessarily the best pick we could have made.
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To be clear, I was not addressing the merits of the DJ vs. TJ pick, just the merits of the comparison being used.
 
infantrycak said:
Not to take anything away from DJ, but you really can't compare stats from a 4-3 OLB and a 3-4 OLB. Morlon Greenwood had 108 tackles his last year as a 4-3 OLB. Try comparing him to someone like Keith Brooking or Derrick Brooks--guys that play in a 4-3.
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I don't about that. If DJ had played in a 3-4, then he would have rushed the passer more and probably resulted in more sacks. And Morlon had 112 tackles this year in a 3-4...what does that matter? His tackles actually increased.
 
AustinJB said:
I don't about that. If DJ had played in a 3-4, then he would have rushed the passer more and probably resulted in more sacks. And Morlon had 112 tackles this year in a 3-4...what does that matter? His tackles actually increased.
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But Morlon played ILB this year in a 3-4 not OLB. To show you the stark contrast, look at pro-bowlers in 3-4's:

Shawne Merriman 57 tackles, 10 sacks, 2 FF, 4 PD
Joey Porter 56 tackles, 10.5 sacks, 4 FF, 5 PD

The positions just aren't the same and the stats really shouldn't be compared. Why bother to compare two players in different positions when there are players in the same position for comparison? For example DJ Williams from the 2004 draft--rookie season 114 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 FF, 6 PD. I'm not saying DJ had a bad year--looked like a pretty good one stat wise--but compare apples to apples.
 
How bout drafting Vince Young because he is the best for the future of the team? I honestly think he is the best player in the draft and would do wonders ON THE FIELD for this team. More so than the other 2. That is my honest to gawd opinion. If I thought the same of Bush I would want him more even if he was from Iraq and had former Al Queda ties. I just want this team to start competing and winning.

VY being from Houston or having played at Texas just makes it a cute story and gives the fans another reason to embrace the guy, but when all is said and done it's going to be about what he does on the field. In 3 years we should all know who was the best player and what team made the right choice.

If VY is tearing it up in another uniform, epecially Bud Duds, I will not be held responsible for all my "told you so's". If I am wrong, Carr turns out to be the guy I THOUGHT he would during our first season, Bush turns out to be another Walter Payton, AND VY flops, I will be more than happy to eat crow on these boards. I will eat it and love every feather.
 
infantrycak said:
But Morlon played ILB this year in a 3-4 not OLB. To show you the stark contrast, look at pro-bowlers in 3-4's:

Shawne Merriman 57 tackles, 10 sacks, 2 FF, 4 PD
Joey Porter 56 tackles, 10.5 sacks, 4 FF, 5 PD

The positions just aren't the same and the stats really shouldn't be compared. Why bother to compare two players in different positions when there are players in the same position for comparison? For example DJ Williams from the 2004 draft--rookie season 114 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 FF, 6 PD. I'm not saying DJ had a bad year--looked like a pretty good one stat wise--but compare apples to apples.
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Point taken.

The point I was trying to get across is, I think DJ would have been great for us. Definitely more productive from year one than TJ. As the stats you listed show, sacks are more important at OLB in the 3-4 than number of tackles. I can't help but think that DJ would have more sacks and pressure on the QB than someone like Babin for instance.
 
AustinJB said:
I can't help but think that DJ would have more sacks and pressure on the QB than someone like Babin for instance.
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DJ might have been great for us, but IMO it would have been in place of Greenwood at ILB--a coverage strong, ball hawking MLB. DJ just doesn't appear to have the umph to directly take on OT's as is required of an OLB in a 3-4. Casserly made an astute comment a couple years ago--there is a difference between blitzer and pass rusher. Guys like Peek and Babin who have played DE are pass rushers. DJ is a blitzer and isn't going to go man on man with OT's or even a good blocking TE like Bruener. If you can scheme him right to get him clean to the QB (Polamalu for Pittsburgh from the safety position) you can get him sacks, but he isn't going to run over someone to get there.
 
The Texans seem to be setting up a experineced but not marque named coaching staff is this attempting to behave fiscally responsible to address expensive draft prospects and keep would be franchise type free agents? sure appears to be the case to me, so it would seem Reggie or Vince is gonna be tha man & its gonna cost 50 million or so & thats not adding to that Carr which is another 20-25 million or the other 7 draft prospects yet to be determined. I mean I know the salary cap is going higher but look at the costs, paid attendance has been sold out but to those who go to the games the glass half empty applies.

So we have to look at this as a buisness decision with two options-

1). if the Texans draft Vince Young the Texans need to let Carr become a free agent and test the market, save the 20-25 million to sign Vince and the other picks.

2). if the Texans keep Carr they need to trade down and get the top rated LT (D'Brick) I don't believe they can afford Bush too and then not address the tackle position without elite talent.
 
Caesar said:
wow :shocked

Chester Pitts instead of Clinton Portis
Fred Weary instead of Seth McKinney
Bennie Joppru instead of Anquan Boldin
Seth Wand instead of Derrick Dockery
Dave Ragone instead of Chris Simms
Travis Johnson instead of Derrick Johnson

and so on....
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dude, Seth McKinney? Derrick Dockery? Chris Simms? that the best examples you could find or the only ones from the state of Texas? :homer:
 
infantrycak said:
To be clear, I was not addressing the merits of the DJ vs. TJ pick, just the merits of the comparison being used.
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Right, and I didn't mean to infer that you were doing otherwise. Formation and of course basic playcalling play a role in any LB's success.
 
beerlover said:
The Texans seem to be setting up a experineced but not marque named coaching staff is this attempting to behave fiscally responsible to address expensive draft prospects and keep would be franchise type free agents? sure appears to be the case to me, so it would seem Reggie or Vince is gonna be tha man & its gonna cost 50 million or so & thats not adding to that Carr which is another 20-25 million or the other 7 draft prospects yet to be determined. I mean I know the salary cap is going higher but look at the costs, paid attendance has been sold out but to those who go to the games the glass half empty applies.

So we have to look at this as a buisness decision with two options-

1). if the Texans draft Vince Young the Texans need to let Carr become a free agent and test the market, save the 20-25 million to sign Vince and the other picks.

2). if the Texans keep Carr they need to trade down and get the top rated LT (D'Brick) I don't believe they can afford Bush too and then not address the tackle position without elite talent.
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You were going somewhere with this but (a) coaches' salaries don't count against your cap, and (b) there weren't exactly a lot of "marquee" coaches floating around this offseason.

As to the rest of your points, been debated a hundred other times on this board, so I won't take the time here.
 
infantrycak said:
DJ might have been great for us, but IMO it would have been in place of Greenwood at ILB--a coverage strong, ball hawking MLB. DJ just doesn't appear to have the umph to directly take on OT's as is required of an OLB in a 3-4. Casserly made an astute comment a couple years ago--there is a difference between blitzer and pass rusher. Guys like Peek and Babin who have played DE are pass rushers. DJ is a blitzer and isn't going to go man on man with OT's or even a good blocking TE like Bruener. If you can scheme him right to get him clean to the QB (Polamalu for Pittsburgh from the safety position) you can get him sacks, but he isn't going to run over someone to get there.
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Infantry, though it is rare, I will disagree with you here. Scouts said the exact same thing about Ray Lewis - did not, could not take on blockers - and we know that turned out. Both are very similar physically (Lewis: 6-1, 245, DJ: 6-2, 242) and play very similar kinds of games, and have similar hot-streak attitudes.

I understand what you mean as far as the difference between blitzer and pass rusher: guys with that DE experience should hypothetically possess better moves and a knowledge on beating an OL, but realistically, I think that good ol fashioned speed and heart can and do make up for a lot of that. As far as running over someone, few DEs in the league possess that ability: many use one or two moves or simply outgun the OT around the corner.

I don't mind Greenwood - I mind the price tag we paid for him, but as a player, he is functional - but I think DJ would have been an upgrade, and I see no reason why the two couldn't play side by side, though there is nothing saying Fangio would have figured that one out.
 
jerek said:
Infantry, though it is rare, I will disagree with you here. Scouts said the exact same thing about Ray Lewis - did not, could not take on blockers - and we know that turned out. Both are very similar physically (Lewis: 6-1, 245, DJ: 6-2, 242) and play very similar kinds of games, and have similar hot-streak attitudes.
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Ray Lewis plays MLB which is what I said DJ would be better at in a 3-4 than trying to put him at OLB.
 
infantrycak said:
Ray Lewis plays MLB which is what I said DJ would be better at in a 3-4 than trying to put him at OLB.
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I just read the MLB/"required at OLB" part - my bad on that. Still, what's to say we couldn't have played both Greenwood and DJ, other than Wong was here first?

Strange how this started out a Bush thread and went another way? More like awesome, since the inverse inevitably occurs about a hundred times daily on here.
 
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