Davis Tracking for Over 1,200

[cadahnic]

Eriadoc you are one of my new Board homies. You brought up the fact that Winston should be our target. He locks down the bookends and then we can use FA and current players to solidify the inside. We then have a line. Then the rest of the draft we shore up our porous defense and add a playmaker later in the draft. Think about this say we get Arizona, NO, or Detroit next year pick in the trade down. Then we could possibly have two high to mid picks for next year. Wait there is a couple of RBs in college now that are sophmores that will be called the best in years. AP comes to mind. Then if the pundits really want a RB we have two first rounders to entice someone to play for him next year. Give me a legitimate Runner comparable to Shaun Alexander and LT over a fast scat back that is a jack of some trades.

 

[Runner]

I respectfully do not agree. I think we have a nice mix of speed, youth, talent and veterans. A new philosophy, in my opinion, will go much further on the defensive side of the ball. I think our offensive woes go much deeper.

Interesting.

I had no doubt that there would be disagreement though. That is why this board is going to be brutal come draft day and with every free agent signing or Texan player cut.

 

[eriadoc]

I am not really Anti-Bush. I just know that this team's trench play, along with a few coaching issues, are the biggest reasons this team is so bad. If we could have our cake and eat it too, then I'd be ecstatic. I don't see it happening that way, which means you have to make a choice and if we continue to try and build from the outside and continue to try and use other teams' linemen leftovers, we'll continue to lose. I'd like to be in a position where upgrading DD is really a concern, but we're not. Upgrading OT, OG, maybe center, maybe safety, for sure LB, for sure cornerback ... these are all more important at this point, IMO.

 

[Hervoyel]

Of course, then you have Casserly trading away his next 73 picks to get back into the first round, but that's a different discussion.

Yeah, you have to watch Casserly because he can get a little weird on you in a hurry but the idea I think is sound. Originally I was thinking more along the lines of trading Domanick in that deal (again, stay with me on this because I admit you have to be entirely sold on Bush to think this makes sense) and maybe getting out with Davis, your #2 and one of your #3's which would still leave you with 3 day one picks (two first rounders and a third rounder) but considering the deal Davis just got from the Texans that isn't going to happen.

Now it's more of a thing where we come out of day one with two players in all likelyhood unless we can give the other team a 3 in next years draft or something along those lines. Casserly seems good at collecting picks so the idea of trading a future draft choice doesn't bother me too much. We always seem to collect one or two extra picks every year. Plus in this version you do get to keep Domanick Davis.

 

[eriadoc]

I respectfully do not agree. I think we have a nice mix of speed, youth, talent and veterans. A new philosophy, in my opinion, will go much further on the defensive side of the ball. I think our offensive woes go much deeper.

Interesting.

I had no doubt that there would be disagreement though. That is why this board is going to be brutal come draft day and with every free agent signing or Texan player cut.

Maybe I am a bit too optimistic, but I think you're both right. I don't think the offense or defense is that far away from being respectable. On offense, get an OT and hope Pitts can play the other tackle spot and maybe a guard or center (depends on Hodgdon and Wiegert). We're not too bad on skill position players - DD is a solid back, if not as spectacular as some would like, AJ/Gaffney/Mathis/Armstrong brings a nice blend of talents to the field, Morris is fine at FB. We do need a TE badly. But really, two legitimate players would go a long way to fixing the offense (well, and new coaches, but that's a given). On defense, there is a nice combination of youth and speed, but they have been misdirected to a point and locker room leadership, for what it's worth, has been lacking. Add a safety and corner, and a LB because Wong's not going to be 100%, and defense can be effective, with proper scheming.

These moves should get us back to the middle of the pack and put the players in position to make plays and show their true talent. That will determine how much higher than mediocre we might be.

 

[MorKnolle]

I think the biggest lesson of this thread is this. Stats are for losers. This isn't baseball people. Try watching the games with objectivity, and it will tell you everything you need to know. and not just Texans games. Want to know why LT and DD don't compare? Watch the freaking games. I don't need an encyclipedia to tell me the sun is orange, I just go out and look at it.

Technically the sun isn't orange, and if you've really been looking at it then you probably then you probably are blind or at least have impaired vision. Anyways, that had nothing to do with the rest of the thread.

 

[stevo3883]

Maybe I am a bit too optimistic, but I think you're both right. I don't think the offense or defense is that far away from being respectable. On offense, get an OT and hope Pitts can play the other tackle spot and maybe a guard or center (depends on Hodgdon and Wiegert). We're not too bad on skill position players - DD is a solid back, if not as spectacular as some would like, AJ/Gaffney/Mathis/Armstrong brings a nice blend of talents to the field, Morris is fine at FB. We do need a TE badly. But really, two legitimate players would go a long way to fixing the offense (well, and new coaches, but that's a given).

well, say we draft some olinemen, they arent going to be very good next year, or the year after that. myabe by year 3 well have an alright line, but well still have the same mediocre skill players.

our WR situation is pretty bad, the beginning of the year we thought we had good depth, but it turned out to be a bunch of #3 or #4 receivers and no #2 guy.

 

[eriadoc]

well, say we draft some olinemen, they arent going to be very good next year, or the year after that. myabe by year 3 well have an alright line, but well still have the same mediocre skill players.

our WR situation is pretty bad, the beginning of the year we thought we had good depth, but it turned out to be a bunch of #3 or #4 receivers and no #2 guy.

Well, again, all I really have to go by (any of us, really) is history. History shows that when tackles are taken in the first round, they often end up starting for the team that drafted them their first year, often at RT. With a year or two, they've moved to LT and they really start to get their feet under them. If our rookie tackle is better than Victor Riley then we've already upgraded without him even learning the nuances of the position. And I think that's very realistic. All the same, you have to start that three year process at some point, right? I have yet to see a better suggestion. The only alternative anyone mentions is free agency, but there are no tackles available in free agency this year, or for that matter, most of the past 20 years. Good teams are not built overnight and this team will be no different. Our current head office has already sacrificed out first four years of building by crafting this team from the outside-in. I'll give you Peyton, Edge, Harrison, and Bush with this offensive line and although they'd likely be better than our top4 offensive players, they would not make the playoffs.

It's not a sexy, popular choice, but this team has to build their lines up. Once they do that, ANY skill position player will be put into the best position to succed, whether it be Trent Dilfer, Stan Humphries, Jim Plunkett, Steve Young, Drew Bledsoe, etc. The sooner we start that process, the sooner we can get to the business of winning games.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

Did anyone notice that Davis is tracking for Over 1,100 yards?

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

I've been reading all this draft speculation and I've got to say it's all capable of working simply because this draft will have several great players come out of it, unlike last years draft.

The only thing I want to see is that if we do trade down we do it twice. Once down to a team in the 4-8 range in exchange for their 1st of course as well as their #2 and possibly their #3 or #4 or maybe even just the 2nd and then their #1 next year. Then we trade down again to a team in the late teens to early 20's in exchange for their #2 and #3 (or #4). Then we are looking at multiple pix. Don't forget that we've got 2 #3's already this year. Then we'll be in a situation where we could have 7-8 first day pix.

I'm not too worried about who we get, one guy is not going to fix everything. I'm more concerned about getting some new competitive youth in here.

And no more drafting projects from small schools or guys to play out of their collegiate position. That rarely works and we are in no position to doddle around with a guy who we think can linebacker in the pros merely because he was a great DE. I'm not saying that it doesn't work, it's just that we don't have time to groom 4-5 guys to play a new position (Babin,Lord,Peek,Orr,Ochanalu) Orr is pretty good though.

But it would be nice to see Bush in a Texans uniform.

 

[Grid]

if you want to get philosophical about it.. sure.. its an opinion. Hell.. there ARE no facts really.. just accepted opinions.

Now.. you say that my comment of "we dont need another RB" is an opinion. Give me one good reason?

Lack of breakaway speed? DD has as much speed as half the other RBs in the league.. and its a proven fact(or opinion) that an RB doesnt need to be able to take it to the house every time he gets the ball to be effective.

So tell me.. if my comment is an opinion.. why is that? Is it because you refuse to think that we dont need Bush, or do you have a REAL reason.

 

[stevo3883]

Now.. you say that my comment of "we dont need another RB" is an opinion. Give me one good reason?

.

i already gave a long reason why, jesus christ, did you not even read what i said?

 

[tulexan]

IF any of those guys mentioned grade out to be a starting left tackle, then sure, do that. As I said above, very few left tackles come from anywhere lower than the first round and this is a fact that anyone here can easily verify at drafthistory.com with a little bit of research. As far as guard goes, we need one, but not as bad as we need a tackle. There are plenty of guards that come from the middle rounds. Tackles with good feet are just not that common.

What is the difference between a guy who is drafted 32 and a guy who is drafted 33? Nothing. We will most likely have the first and 33rd pick. So why is an OT that is drafted by the Colts or what ever team that is going to be the Super Bowl champs going to be a much better success than a player who is drafted one pick later?

Also, some of these OT's or OG's would be 1st round picks if it weren't such a deep draft for linemen.

By your research about the history of success of linemen and where they were drafted, it would mean that Marcus McNeil would have a better chance of being successful if the Colts picked him instead of a defensive player rather than the Texans picking immediately after them.

I see what you are trying to say that good linemen and left tackles in particular are hard to come by and that the cream of the crop are picked early, but this is an unusually strong linemen draft. Some of the tackles who would be top tackles in other drafts are the 3rd or 4th best this year. Jonathan Scott for example was named to first team all american team and on a lot of draft boards he is behind D'Brick, Winston, McNeil, and Justice. Then behind the tackles you have Max Jean Giles and Davin Thomas at OG.

So we actually could get a playmaker like Bush and add a quality lineman. We could probably trade our two third round picks to get back into the second round and pick up another lineman or a TE.

 

[eriadoc]

What is the difference between a guy who is drafted 32 and a guy who is drafted 33? Nothing. We will most likely have the first and 33rd pick. So why is an OT that is drafted by the Colts or what ever team that is going to be the Super Bowl champs going to be a much better success than a player who is drafted one pick later?

Also, some of these OT's or OG's would be 1st round picks if it weren't such a deep draft for linemen.

By your research about the history of success of linemen and where they were drafted, it would mean that Marcus McNeil would have a better chance of being successful if the Colts picked him instead of a defensive player rather than the Texans picking immediately after them.

I see what you are trying to say that good linemen and left tackles in particular are hard to come by and that the cream of the crop are picked early, but this is an unusually strong linemen draft. Some of the tackles who would be top tackles in other drafts are the 3rd or 4th best this year. Jonathan Scott for example was named to first team all american team and on a lot of draft boards he is behind D'Brick, Winston, McNeil, and Justice. Then behind the tackles you have Max Jean Giles and Davin Thomas at OG.

So we actually could get a playmaker like Bush and add a quality lineman. We could probably trade our two third round picks to get back into the second round and pick up another lineman or a TE.

I hope you're right - really, I do. I'd like nothing more than to get Bush AND a left tackle that will play for us for years, just as Pace, Ogden, Jones, etc. do for their respective teams. All I am saying is that if I have to choose only one, I choose left tackle, because it makes the most sense. Bush is the flashy pick, but his odds of being as successful as people are predicting, on this team, are set against him. As to the difference between 32 and 33 ... not much. Most of the left tackles in the league worth mentioning were taken in the top 20. THe really elite ones were taken in the top 10 and they've lived up to the hype. Mandarich was the last top-10 tackle to really bust. Victor Riley or LJ Shelton might be the next closest example, and they were taken at 21 and 22, IIRC.

If a tackle in this draft grades out so well that the team feels like he will be a fixture for years to come, then hey, I'm on board. I just have a sneaking suspicion that won't be the case, however.

 

[vtech9]

if you want to get philosophical about it.. sure.. its an opinion. Hell.. there ARE no facts really.. just accepted opinions.

Now.. you say that my comment of "we dont need another RB" is an opinion. Give me one good reason?

Lack of breakaway speed? DD has as much speed as half the other RBs in the league.. and its a proven fact(or opinion) that an RB doesnt need to be able to take it to the house every time he gets the ball to be effective.

So tell me.. if my comment is an opinion.. why is that? Is it because you refuse to think that we dont need Bush, or do you have a REAL reason.

Grid, there is no sense in even trying to talk to these thick-headed numbskulls. We both know that the Texans do not need another RB. We have Davis, Wells, and Morrency, so no matter how nice it would be to have Bush, we have more pressing needs at the moment. On top of that, there is no guarantee that Bush will even come out after this year.

Everyone keeps talking about how great Bush is, but that is against College players. Can he do the same things against faster NFL players? Who knows? Personally, I think I would rather fix the areas that desperately need fixing first.

Remember, Bush is still a Junior and Adrian Peterson is only a Sophomore, so there are choices at RB. Personally, I would rather have "All Day" Peterson than Bush, but that's just me.

 

[Hervoyel]

Grid, there is no sense in even trying to talk to these thick-headed numbskulls. We both know that the Texans do not need another RB. We have Davis, Wells, and Morrency, so no matter how nice it would be to have Bush, we have more pressing needs at the moment. On top of that, there is no guarantee that Bush will even come out after this year.

Everyone keeps talking about how great Bush is, but that is against College players. Can he do the same things against faster NFL players? Who knows? Personally, I think I would rather fix the areas that desperately need fixing first.

Remember, Bush is still a Junior and Adrian Peterson is only a Sophomore, so there are choices at RB. Personally, I would rather have "All Day" Peterson than Bush, but that's just me.

It's nice to know that if I don't think what you think vtech9 then I'm a "thick headed numbskull".

 

[HJam72]

And what the ****'s wrong with thick-headed numbsculls?!!?

 

[Texans_Chick]

Well, again, all I really have to go by (any of us, really) is history.

True that. History is a weird thing, tho.

I don't know if their are any Alternative History fans out there. It is a genre of books that looks at historical events and comes up with a fiction of what would have happened if a few things went differently.

You could write all sorts of alternative histories for players drafted in the NFL. (Or any sorts of sports moves--like the Roger Clemens non-arbitration for instance). There are so few players so good that they couldn't be bad no matter what situations they were put in. And then there is luck involved too, both good and bad. Bennie Joppru has no history of injury in college and then gets jinxed when he comes to Houston. Would we be wearing Joppru jerseys had he not been hurt? Prolly not, but you never know.

Here is an interesting history lesson involving the Heisman. There are only four Division I players to gain more than 2,000 rushing yards in a season. They won the Heisman. Two of those players are considered studs and two of those players are considered busts.*

It is a crap shoot. And it is more difficult in the era of the cap, where resources spent on one area mean that they are taken away from other needs.

And there is such a thing as the "observer's paradox." (For further explanation, see this link: the observation or measurement itself affects an outcome, so that it can never be known what the outcome would have been if it were not observed. That once we take the action of picking a player, we don't know what would have happened had we picked otherwise. It is possible that Reggie Bush would be an awesome Texans player, but it could be that he isn't, but might have been some place else.

All that blathering aside, I am looking forward to seeing the performances of the players in the UT-USC matchup.












*Marcus Allen, Mike Rozier, Rashaan Salaam and Barry Sanders

 

[stevo3883]

True that. History is a weird thing, tho.

I don't know if their are any Alternative History fans out there. It is a genre of books that looks at historical events and comes up with a fiction of what would have happened if a few things went differently.

You could write all sorts of alternative histories for players drafted in the NFL. (Or any sorts of sports moves--like the Roger Clemens non-arbitration for instance). There are so few players so good that they couldn't be bad no matter what situations they were put in. And then there is luck involved too, both good and bad. Bennie Joppru has no history of injury in college and then gets jinxed when he comes to Houston. Would we be wearing Joppru jerseys had he not been hurt? Prolly not, but you never know.

Here is an interesting history lesson involving the Heisman. There are only four Division I players to gain more than 2,000 rushing yards in a season. They won the Heisman. Two of those players are considered studs and two of those players are considered busts.*

It is a crap shoot. And it is more difficult in the era of the cap, where resources spent on one area mean that they are taken away from other needs.

And there is such a thing as the "observer's paradox." (For further explanation, see this link: the observation or measurement itself affects an outcome, so that it can never be known what the outcome would have been if it were not observed. That once we take the action of picking a player, we don't know what would have happened had we picked otherwise. It is possible that Reggie Bush would be an awesome Texans player, but it could be that he isn't, but might have been some place else.

All that blathering aside, I am looking forward to seeing the performances of the players in the UT-USC matchup.












*Marcus Allen, Mike Rozier, Rashaan Salaam and Barry Sanders

and ricky williams, and ladanian tomlinson, and i believe jj arrington, and i believe ron dayne also

 

[Texans_Chick]

and ricky williams, and ladanian tomlinson, and i believe jj arrington, and i believe ron dayne also

Duh on me.

That's what I get for relying on an interesting stat I read on the internet.

Though I suppose those names support the same concept of my original post, I guess.

 

[tulexan]

Larry Johnson too

 

[Grid]

Yes I read your post Stevo. That isnt much of a reason IMO. You want Bush because you think he would make a bigger impact than a rookie LT would.

Well.. Id say that it is safe to say that next season, it is probably a BETTER possibility that Bush will be more noticable than a rookie LT.. that doesnt make him the better choice for this team though. No RB.. no matter how good.. can carry a team by themselves. LT couldnt do it.. Barry Sanders couldnt do it.. and Bush wouldnt be able to do it. Taking Bush would, in the long run, have LESS positive impact on this team than a good offensive tackle would.

We need an Oline.. will a rookie olineman take longer to develop? yes.. but a good line will be alot more helpful for this offense than Bush could ever hope to be.

If Bush was a peice to the puzzle..I would be all for it.. but he isnt.. Davis fits just fine and we dont need anyone to replace him.

 

[stevo3883]

Yes I read your post Stevo. That isnt much of a reason IMO. You want Bush because you think he would make a bigger impact than a rookie LT would.

Well.. Id say that it is safe to say that next season, it is probably a BETTER possibility that Bush will be more noticable than a rookie LT.. that doesnt make him the better choice for this team though. No RB.. no matter how good.. can carry a team by themselves. LT couldnt do it.. Barry Sanders couldnt do it.. and Bush wouldnt be able to do it. Taking Bush would, in the long run, have LESS positive impact on this team than a good offensive tackle would.

We need an Oline.. will a rookie olineman take longer to develop? yes.. but a good line will be alot more helpful for this offense than Bush could ever hope to be.

If Bush was a peice to the puzzle..I would be all for it.. but he isnt.. Davis fits just fine and we dont need anyone to replace him.

ok, i must have missed where a new LT = good line, we'll have to replace a lot mroe than LT to make this a good line.

look at the rams, Pace is a monster LT, does that make the line any better? no. does that make the team any better? not really.

I understand what a great line means to a team, but i also understand you need great skill players to actually score points. and our skill players are nearly as bad as our oline.



how much would you like this: Carr drops back, oh no there is pressure (which will happen with or without dbrick), he scrambles right and dumps it off the Bush in the flat. Bush makes a move on the defender and bam, 50 yard touchdown. thats the kind of thing he brings to the table, amazing talent. DD in that same scenario might get 4 or 5 yards

You need more than 1 player to have a good line, players we can pick up with our later picks. we will have the 33rd pick for christ sake, there is so much depth we can get a tackle this year in the 2nd that any other year wouldve been a top 15 pick.

you act like bush is just another RB, this guy is a game changer. a running back with true elite speed, Portis, tatum bell, warrick dunn, and only Portis is built like a real RB. how rare are good pass blocking left tackles? so rare that you use the #1 or a top 5 pick on one that hasnt been that great against college kids and is rather undersized and has trouble keeping on weight and isnt a very good run blocker...



but please, come back to me with how im wrong and i just dont understand that Ferguson will carry our team better than Bush ever could (biggest joke comment ive ever read)

 

[Grid]

Davis might get 4 or 5 yards but Bush would get 50?

Since we cant fix the line with one draft pick we might as well just ignore it?

Pace is a great tackle but the rams Oline isnt the best in the league..therefore tackles arent important?

Bush hasnt taken a snap in the NFL but he is a game changer, better than Portis, Bell and Dunn?

Bush is already an elite NFL RB but all the OTs in the draft are sucky college players?

You do know that this is one of the best OT crops in many years? and maybe the only good one for a few more years?


Whatever.. call this a lame reply if you want but I just cant compete with that kind of blind ignorance.

You are just gonna keep ignoring the fact that Davis is the best player we have on Offense right now, and the only part of our offense that is functioning.. huh? Bush is just that dang good.. his shoes cure cancer and every time he scores a TD god cleanses a damned soul and welcomes them to heaven. Get him on the team quick! he is so good that he will do what LT and Barry Sanders couldnt.. he will put them all to shame.. because he kicked butt in college and it will obviously translate into even BETTER play in the NFL.

gimme some of what youre smokin.

 

[tulexan]

I think stevo is right. You shouldn't look at Reggie Bush as just a RB. He is much more than a RB he is a legitimate playmaker on offense. If it were between Dominack Davis and LenDale White, DeAngelo Williams, or Laurence Maroney, I would choose Davis because although they might be potentially better RBs, we have a RB right now. Those guys can't do what Reggie Bush can, which is be used all over the field. I think our potential as an offense with Carr, Johnson, Davis, and Bush would be limitless. We would have a ground game that would rank second to none and a big time receiver with Andre. Plus we could move Reggie into the slot or out wide and take some of the pressure off of Andre on some plays.

 

[stevo3883]

Andre Johnson is faster, possibly quicker, and certainly stronger than Bush

lol have you EVER seen bush play? I love AJ, he ran what a 4.35? Bush is every bit that fast in the 40. and game speed he is one of the fastest ive ever seen.

quicker than Bush? Man thats the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard, and you've quickly been relegated into silly delusional homer territory,

 

[Grid]

you've quickly been relegated into silly delusional homer territory,

pot. kettle. black.

 

[stevo3883]

pot. kettle. black.

do you know even what a homer is?

 

[Grid]

someone who loves their team so much that they refuse to see any fault in them.. they will always be the best at everything they do.. and any time they play badly there is a very good excuse for why that proves that their team is still the greatest ever, but was the victim of circumstances beyond their control.


just replace "team" with "player" in that paragraph and you have a perfect definition of you and Bush.

you could also add...

Their player is the best to ever play in the NFL despite never playing against NFL level talent and playing in a system which allowed the player to shine.

 

[stevo3883]

do you live in a shack down by the river? have you not seen what everyone in the entire football industry has been saying about this kid?

if it were just the talking heads i wouldnt think twice, but its credible guys calling this kid the best thing theyve ever seen.

but what do they know right? Grid on the Texans message board knows whats really up, Bush is a flop if hes ever seen one, and Dbrick is the next Anthony Munoz, if not better.

 

[infantrycak]

how much would you like this: Carr drops back, oh no there is pressure (which will happen with or without dbrick), he scrambles right and dumps it off the Bush in the flat. Bush makes a move on the defender and bam, 50 yard touchdown. thats the kind of thing he brings to the table, amazing talent. DD in that same scenario might get 4 or 5 yards

See here is where you end up looking like a Bush agent rather than someone with any objectivity or knowledge of the Texans. 4 or 5 yds for DD on a dump-off--yeah if he gained half his career average IN THE NFL on dump-off's. Over his career DD averages 8.3 ypr on dump-off's only. On the other hand, Bush over his COLLEGE career averages 50% more at 12.4 on ypr and that includes numerous (see highlight film) instances of long receptions as a WR. Basically, based on feet hitting the ground rather than Bush rah-rah, Bush has not had any significantly better success at dump-offs in college than DD has in the NFL. Oh and wait, the take it a long way theory--Bush has 2 receptions over 20 yds this year in 12 games, DD has 3 over 20 in 10. But hey, the talking heads and their hyperbole must be right, I mean they have never exagerated about the draft before, right?

 

[stevo3883]

See here is where you end up looking like a Bush agent rather than someone with any objectivity or knowledge of the Texans. 4 or 5 yds for DD on a dump-off--yeah if he gained half his career average IN THE NFL on dump-off's. Over his career DD averages 8.3 ypr on dump-off's only. On the other hand, Bush over his COLLEGE career averages 50% more at 12.4 on ypr and that includes numerous (see highlight film) instances of long receptions as a WR. Basically, based on feet hitting the ground rather than Bush rah-rah, Bush has not had any significantly better success at dump-offs in college than DD has in the NFL. Oh and wait, the take it a long way theory--Bush has 2 receptions over 20 yds this year in 12 games, DD has 3 over 20 in 10. But hey, the talking heads and their hyperbole must be right, I mean they have never exagerated about the draft before, right?

4 to 5 yards after he catches the ball....


how many dumpoffs has leinart thrown this year? Ill bet its anywhere between 0 and 5.


The fact is Bush doesnt run many screens or get any dumpoffs like he would here.

the guy averages 30 yards per TD, so while that "only has 2 rec over 20 yards" thing might look good, he has around 17 td's averaging 30 yards per.

that obviously shows me a homerun threat if ive ever seen one.

What is DD's average for his 2 rushing touchdowns?

 

[stevo3883]

I am going to try this one more time, with a different approach.

Remember a guy named Barry Sanders? His team sucked. Year after everloving year, despite that Barry, behind a ****ty line and as the only offensive option on the team, continually dominated league rushing categories, year after everloving year. Barry wowed everyone time and again and was a regular on the highlight reels.

Is Reggie Bush better than Barry Sanders was? Never mind the inherent chances you take in the draft, obviously we are taking a chance on whoever we draft, so never mind anticipated product versus proven product. The question simply is: Is Reggie Bush better than Barry Sanders was?

Answer me that, and then I will tell you this: I don't want a Barry Sanders on a ****ty team that year after year barely struggles to make the playoffs. I don't want to pay Reggie Bush 50 ****ing million dollars to come be a one-man highlight reel for the Houston Texans, when we could use that pick to make a legitimate advance all across the board, trade it and acquire 2-3 1st and 2nd round picks for this or next year's draft and use it to bolster the rest of our team. I want to improve other positions, since we do after all have that nagging issue of having to field twenty-two players plus subs. I especially, and here is the real, most important kicker, don't want to draft Reggie Bush when we have a perfectly good 1,000-1,200 yds/season back already on our roster.

The ****ing end. We are a 1-11 team with a perfectly good RB and we have other, far more pressing concerns to address this offseason than forking out a quarter of our cap for a primo back who still, at the end of the day, will not be able to block for himself or tackle anyone on defense. Until he learns to fly, I am flat-out not interested.

I am tired of debating this, and instead of calling you an *****, I will simply rest my case on this difference of opinions. You have stated your thoughts, and I mine. Time will prove the victor.

I understand you arent interested, its the pompous attitude you carry when trying to debate something that is irritating. The whole "you're wrong because I KNOW he wont work here"

no one is always right, including you. You dont know what would happen with Bush. WE ARE NOT THE MID 90'S DETROIT LIONS! they were an inept franchise, are we also? are you saying this is the only draft where we'll be able to improve in?


is LT such an important need that you ignore a fantastic player to pursue options that could very possibly turn into busts (the chance of a 2nd & 3rd rounder busting is much higher than a top pick)

 

[infantrycak]

4 to 5 yards after he catches the ball...

Facts be damned, full speed ahead--no that would be 7.6 yac for DD, i.e. basically all after the catch.

how many dumpoffs has leinart thrown this year? Ill bet its anywhere between 0 and 5.

The fact is Bush doesnt run many screens or get any dumpoffs like he would here.

So in other words, you pulled a scenario out of a dark spot and got called on it and now are retreating to the but Bush will destroy the NFL on any play defense. Cool. Like I have said elsewhere, if the Texans keep the #1, by all means they should draft Bush, but running down DD and leg humping Bush is unnecessary to making that decision.

 

[stevo3883]

This is a perceived list of the top 50 players in the NFL, maybe it can give us an idea just how much of a crapshoot it is to get the best players in the league.



1. Peyton Manning, QB, Colts: 1st round 1st overall

2. Tom Brady, QB, Patriots: 6th round

3. LaDainian Tomlinson, RB, Chargers: 1st round 5th overall

4. Randy Moss, WR, Raiders: 1st round 17th overall

5. Ray Lewis, LB, Ravens: 1st round 27th

6. Marvin Harrison, WR, Colts: 1st round 19th

7. Ed Reed, S, Ravens: 1st round 20thish pick

8. Terrell Owens, WR, Eagles: 3rd round

9. Daunte Culpepper, QB, Vikings: 1sr round 11th overall

10. Donovan McNabb, QB, Eagles: 1st round 2nd overall

11. Clinton Portis, RB, Redskins: 2nd round

12. Champ Bailey, CB, Broncos: 1st round top 10

13. Walter Jones, T, Seahawks: 1st round top 10

14. Richard Seymour, DE, Patriots: 1st round top 10

15. Michael Vick, QB, Falcons: 1st round 1st overall

16. Chris McAlister, CB, Ravens: 1st round 10th pick

17. Tony Gonzalez, TE, Chiefs: 1st round 13th overall

18. Marcus Stroud, DT, Jaguars: 1st round 13th overall

19. Jamal Lewis, RB, Ravens: 1st round 4th overall

20. Priest Holmes, RB, Chiefs: undrafted

21. Chad Johnson, WR, Bengals: 2nd round

22. Dwight Freeney, DE, Colts: 1st round 11th overall

23. Julius Peppers, DE, Panthers: 1st round 3rd overall

24. Torry Holt, WR, Rams: 1st round 6th overall

25. Jonathan Ogden, T, Ravens: 1st round 4th overall

26. Ahman Green, RB, Packers: 3rd round

27. Antonio Gates, TE, Chargers: undrafted (DNP college fball)

28. Kris Jenkins, DT, Panthers: 2nt round

29. Derrick Brooks, LB, Bucs: 1st round 28th

30. Shaun Rogers, DT, Lions: 2nd round

31. Brian Dawkins, S, Eagles: 2nd round

32. Brett Favre, QB, Packers: 1st round

33. Jeremy Shockey, TE, Giants: 1st round 14th

34. Kevin Williams, DT, Vikings: 1st round 10th

35. Todd Heap, TE, Ravens: 1st round 31st

36. Orlando Pace, T, Rams: 1st round 1st overall

37. Steve McNair, QB, Titans: 1st round 4th overall

38. Andre Johnson, WR, Texans: 1st round 3rd

39. Willie Roaf, T, Chiefs: 1st round 8th overall

40. Simeon Rice, DE, Bucs: 1st round 3rd overall

41. Jason Taylor, DE, Dolphins: 3rd round

42. John Henderson, DT, Jaguars: 1st round 9th overall

43. Samari Rolle, CB, Ravens: 2nd round

44. Patrick Surtain, CB, Chiefs: 2nd roound

45. Al Wilson, LB, Broncos: 1st round 31st

46. Deuce McAllister, RB, Saints: 1st round 23rd

47. Brian Urlacher, LB, Bears: 1st round 14th

48. Hines Ward, WR, Steelers:3rd round

49. Takeo Spikes, LB, Bills: 1st round 13th

50.Charles Woodson, CB, Raiders: 1st round 4th overall


so if 40 out of the top 50 were first rounders, and if only a handful of those were in the later half, then doesnt it seem a guy drafted in the top 10 has a much higher chance of being great than anyone drafted in any other round?

 

[stevo3883]

i didnt write it, its pete prisco's top 50 players. it didnt take that much work..


and in this one, i am trying to do my "Bush Push" on you.

 

[run-david-run]

This is a perceived list of the top 50 players in the NFL, maybe it can give us an idea just how much of a crapshoot it is to get the best players in the league.



1. Peyton Manning, QB, Colts: 1st round 1st overall

2. Tom Brady, QB, Patriots: 6th round

3. LaDainian Tomlinson, RB, Chargers: 1st round 5th overall

4. Randy Moss, WR, Raiders: 1st round 17th overall

5. Ray Lewis, LB, Ravens: 1st round 27th

6. Marvin Harrison, WR, Colts: 1st round 19th

7. Ed Reed, S, Ravens: 1st round 20thish pick

8. Terrell Owens, WR, Eagles: 3rd round

9. Daunte Culpepper, QB, Vikings: 1sr round 11th overall

10. Donovan McNabb, QB, Eagles: 1st round 2nd overall

11. Clinton Portis, RB, Redskins: 2nd round

12. Champ Bailey, CB, Broncos: 1st round top 10

13. Walter Jones, T, Seahawks: 1st round top 10

14. Richard Seymour, DE, Patriots: 1st round top 10

15. Michael Vick, QB, Falcons: 1st round 1st overall

16. Chris McAlister, CB, Ravens: 1st round 10th pick

17. Tony Gonzalez, TE, Chiefs: 1st round 13th overall

18. Marcus Stroud, DT, Jaguars: 1st round 13th overall

19. Jamal Lewis, RB, Ravens: 1st round 4th overall

20. Priest Holmes, RB, Chiefs: undrafted

21. Chad Johnson, WR, Bengals: 2nd round

22. Dwight Freeney, DE, Colts: 1st round 11th overall

23. Julius Peppers, DE, Panthers: 1st round 3rd overall

24. Torry Holt, WR, Rams: 1st round 6th overall

25. Jonathan Ogden, T, Ravens: 1st round 4th overall

26. Ahman Green, RB, Packers: 3rd round

27. Antonio Gates, TE, Chargers: undrafted (DNP college fball)

28. Kris Jenkins, DT, Panthers: 2nt round

29. Derrick Brooks, LB, Bucs: 1st round 28th

30. Shaun Rogers, DT, Lions: 2nd round

31. Brian Dawkins, S, Eagles: 2nd round

32. Brett Favre, QB, Packers: 1st round

33. Jeremy Shockey, TE, Giants: 1st round 14th

34. Kevin Williams, DT, Vikings: 1st round 10th

35. Todd Heap, TE, Ravens: 1st round 31st

36. Orlando Pace, T, Rams: 1st round 1st overall

37. Steve McNair, QB, Titans: 1st round 4th overall

38. Andre Johnson, WR, Texans: 1st round 3rd

39. Willie Roaf, T, Chiefs: 1st round 8th overall

40. Simeon Rice, DE, Bucs: 1st round 3rd overall

41. Jason Taylor, DE, Dolphins: 3rd round

42. John Henderson, DT, Jaguars: 1st round 9th overall

43. Samari Rolle, CB, Ravens: 2nd round

44. Patrick Surtain, CB, Chiefs: 2nd roound

45. Al Wilson, LB, Broncos: 1st round 31st

46. Deuce McAllister, RB, Saints: 1st round 23rd

47. Brian Urlacher, LB, Bears: 1st round 14th

48. Hines Ward, WR, Steelers:3rd round

49. Takeo Spikes, LB, Bills: 1st round 13th

50.Charles Woodson, CB, Raiders: 1st round 4th overall


so if 40 out of the top 50 were first rounders, and if only a handful of those were in the later half, then doesnt it seem a guy drafted in the top 10 has a much higher chance of being great than anyone drafted in any other round?

Looks great, but what about all of the first round picks that cost WAY more then 2nd and 3rd rounders that failed misserably? (Blair Thomas, Andre Ware, Courtney Brown, Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, Charles Rogers to name a few of many.)

We dont need to hve one of the top 50 players in the NFL, we need to have a combination of linemen and playcalling that is good enough for Carr to take a 5 step drop.

 

[infantrycak]

Let's compare:

3. LaDainian Tomlinson, RB, Chargers: 1st round 5th overall

11. Clinton Portis, RB, Redskins: 2nd round

19. Jamal Lewis, RB, Ravens: 1st round 4th overall

20. Priest Holmes, RB, Chiefs: undrafted

26. Ahman Green, RB, Packers: 3rd round

46. Deuce McAllister, RB, Saints: 1st round 23rd

I would throw Lewis out at this point, but leave him in--RB's in top 50 half in 1st, half out.

13. Walter Jones, T, Seahawks: 1st round top 10

25. Jonathan Ogden, T, Ravens: 1st round 4th overall

36. Orlando Pace, T, Rams: 1st round 1st overall

39. Willie Roaf, T, Chiefs: 1st round 8th overall

LT's in top 50--100% 1st rounders.

 

[thague]

Really is 1,100 that impressive? That averages out to about 69 yards per game. A starting running back will generally get around 20 carries a game which means you have to average 3.45 yards per carry. I know he in fact is averaging more than that (around 83 yards per game and 4 yards per carry) but that is because he gets injured every year.

The reason that it is that impressive is for two different reasons. Number one teams that play the Texans can load up the box because Houston doesnt run any long routes because of its porous offensive line. Therefore DD is gaining 80 some odd yards a game against 8 in the box consistently... secondly Houston's offensive line is weak, run blocking, pass blocking whatever... think how solid Davis would be with an average offensive line. Davis is a good back

 

[tulexan]

The reason that it is that impressive is for two different reasons. Number one teams that play the Texans can load up the box because Houston doesnt run any long routes because of its porous offensive line. Therefore DD is gaining 80 some odd yards a game against 8 in the box consistently... secondly Houston's offensive line is weak, run blocking, pass blocking whatever... think how solid Davis would be with an average offensive line. Davis is a good back

I'm sorry but I don't see the loading up the box like some are claiming. The only loading that I see is on Andre Johnson.

 

[infantrycak]

I'm sorry but I don't see the loading up the box like some are claiming. The only loading that I see is on Andre Johnson.

Last year they loaded more against AJ--this year they load more against DD. Teams take try to take away what is working best.

 

[Wolf]

He's constantly made something out of nothing and to me that's more important than a speedy back who needs a gaping hole (Which you don't get often with this Oline) to run through to get a 99 yard td (Enters Sarcasm).

hey Tony Dorsett did it with 10 men on the field

 

[Grid]

That top 50 list shows me that you have just as good a chance of getting a top tier NFL player with the 20th pick as you do with the 1st pick.. which makes me beleive even more so that trading down and getting extra picks..and grabbing someone in the 3-25 range would be better for the team in the long run.

im done with this arguement (at least in this thread).. it has degraded into the same thing parroted over and over... there are only so many times you can repeat yourself.

I will say that if we DO draft Bush.. I wont be disappointed.. Bush and DD will be a nice one-two punch.. and Bush will give the team a little more press coverage as well.. but im not gonna be ecstatic about it either. I think we can better spend our pick, and our money, improving the Oline.....for once.

 

[MorKnolle]

how much would you like this: Carr drops back, oh no there is pressure (which will happen with or without dbrick), he scrambles right and dumps it off the Bush in the flat. Bush makes a move on the defender and bam, 50 yard touchdown. thats the kind of thing he brings to the table, amazing talent. DD in that same scenario might get 4 or 5 yards

Bush is not going to turn dump off passes into 50 yard TDs more than maybe once a year. That kind of thing just doesn't happen in the NFL.

you act like bush is just another RB, this guy is a game changer. a running back with true elite speed, Portis, tatum bell, warrick dunn, and only Portis is built like a real RB. how rare are good pass blocking left tackles? so rare that you use the #1 or a top 5 pick on one that hasnt been that great against college kids and is rather undersized and has trouble keeping on weight and isnt a very good run blocker...

FYI, Clinton Portis is listed at 5-11 212 lbs. Tatum Bell is 5-11 213 lbs. I, along with many others on here, have long been advocates of drafting Eric Winston (or one of the other OL that don't have weight issues) over Ferguson.

I think stevo is right. You shouldn't look at Reggie Bush as just a RB. He is much more than a RB he is a legitimate playmaker on offense. If it were between Dominack Davis and LenDale White, DeAngelo Williams, or Laurence Maroney, I would choose Davis because although they might be potentially better RBs, we have a RB right now. Those guys can't do what Reggie Bush can, which is be used all over the field. I think our potential as an offense with Carr, Johnson, Davis, and Bush would be limitless. We would have a ground game that would rank second to none and a big time receiver with Andre. Plus we could move Reggie into the slot or out wide and take some of the pressure off of Andre on some plays.

How does adding Bush suddenly make us the best running team in the NFL? The Broncos have Bell (who is as fast as Bush) and Anderson (power RB who is somewhat fast as well) plus a great OL, the Falcons have Dunn (who is as fast as Bush) and Duckett (power RB), a good OL, and oh yeah Michael Vick who puts up another 700 rushing yards each year, the Chiefs have Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson and a great OL... do I need to continue? How does drafting Bush and maybe a 2nd round caliber OL suddenly make us the best running team in the NFL? Am I the only one that doesn't see that happening?

Andre Johnson is faster, possibly quicker, and certainly stronger than Bush

Andre is probably as fast straight line speed as Bush, probably not quite as quick, but definitely stronger and better at breaking through tackles. I doubt Bush runs much, if any, better of a 40 time, but we'll have to wait and see.

Pace is a great tackle but the rams Oline isnt the best in the league..therefore tackles arent important? isnt the best = total crap, we had like 7 sacks on them. didnt say a tackle wasnt important, just that a good tackle wont suddenly make the line good like u said it would.

FYI we had two sacks on them in the first half when Pace was playing and neither was his fault, we had five sacks in the second half after they pulled him from the game. Pace owned Dwight Freeney when they played the Colts.

I am going to try this one more time, with a different approach.

Remember a guy named Barry Sanders? His team sucked. Year after everloving year, despite that Barry, behind a ****ty line and as the only offensive option on the team, continually dominated league rushing categories, year after everloving year. Barry wowed everyone time and again and was a regular on the highlight reels.

Is Reggie Bush better than Barry Sanders was? Never mind the inherent chances you take in the draft, obviously we are taking a chance on whoever we draft, so never mind anticipated product versus proven product. The question simply is: Is Reggie Bush better than Barry Sanders was?

Answer me that, and then I will tell you this: I don't want a Barry Sanders on a ****ty team that year after year struggles to barely make the playoffs. I don't want to pay Reggie Bush 50 ****ing million dollars to come be a one-man highlight reel for the Houston Texans, when we could use that pick to make a legitimate advance all across the board, trade it and acquire 2-3 1st and 2nd round picks for this or next year's draft and use it to bolster the rest of our team. I want to improve other positions, since we do after all have that nagging issue of having to field twenty-two players plus subs. I especially, and here is the real, most important kicker, don't want to draft Reggie Bush when we have a perfectly good 1,000-1,200 yds/season back already on our roster.

The ****ing end. We are a 1-11 team with a perfectly good RB and we have other, far more pressing concerns to address this offseason than forking out a quarter of our cap for a primo back who still, at the end of the day, will not be able to block for himself or tackle anyone on defense. Until he learns to fly, I am flat-out not interested.

I am tired of debating this, and instead of calling you an *****, I will simply rest my case on this difference of opinions. You have stated your thoughts, and I mine. Time will prove the victor.

Excellent post, I agree with you.

 

[Hervoyel]

This thread has turned into an 11 page mess and probably has hours at best left to live. Four games left in the season until we even find out if we're going to get the draft pick necessary to select him and already we see any conversation about this turn ugly in short order.

When I think about what cleaning up Reggie Bush threads is going to be like two months from now it makes me want to take a long, three or four month nap and pretend this board doesn't exist.

 

[Grid]

its gonna be a hoot . Ill try and keep my personal ranting to a minimum.

If we do get the #1 overall pick though... you can bet that we are gonna have hundreds of people making their first post to talk about how we gotta take Bush.

What you really need to be afraid of is if we end up with the #2-4 pick. That is gonna trigger alot of "What we could do to get Reggie Bush" threads.

"If we traded Andre Johnson and our #2 this year to the 49ers for the #1 overall, we could get Reggie Bush, then.. if we traded Davis and our #1 next year to the Packers, we could get Matt Lienart.. then if we traded Carr and our 2 #3s and #2 next year to the Ravens, we can get Dbrick.. then we trade Dunta Robinson and our #4 this year, and #3 next year to the Eagles for T.O. and their #1.. draft (insert CB here) and we would could win TWO superbowls this year. Its so easy... ive already done it on Madden.. why dont the Texans listen to their fans? We could be the best team in the NFL if they would just make these trades"

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

its gonna be a hoot . Ill try and keep my personal ranting to a minimum.

If we do get the #1 overall pick though... you can bet that we are gonna have hundreds of people making their first post to talk about how we gotta take Bush.

What you really need to be afraid of is if we end up with the #2-4 pick. That is gonna trigger alot of "What we could do to get Reggie Bush" threads.

"If we traded Andre Johnson and our #2 this year to the 49ers for the #1 overall, we could get Reggie Bush, then.. if we traded Davis and our #1 next year to the Packers, we could get Matt Lienart.. then if we traded Carr and our 2 #3s and #2 next year to the Ravens, we can get Dbrick.. then we trade Dunta Robinson and our #4 this year, and #3 next year to the Eagles for T.O. and their #1.. draft (insert CB here) and we would could win TWO superbowls this year. Its so easy... ive already done it on Madden.. why dont the Texans listen to their fans? We could be the best team in the NFL if they would just make these trades"

You are sooo right on this. I have headache just thinking about it.

 

[touttail]

Double D is one tough cookie.

Per the Chronicle, he will be one of only 15 RBs to rush for 1000 yds. in their first 3 seasons.

Bobby 119C:brickwall

 

[HJam72]

Double D is one tough cookie.

Per the Chronicle, he will be one of only 15 RBs to rush for 1000 yds. in their first 3 seasons.

Bobby 119C:brickwall

So what? That's almost half the RBs in the NFL.

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

Double D is one tough cookie.

Per the Chronicle, he will be one of only 15 RBs to rush for 1000 yds. in their first 3 seasons.

Bobby 119C:brickwall

I think he's tough too but it's one thing to earn those 1000+ and another when the defense let's you have it because they're focussed on rattlin' Carr