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Cowher on the Texans
- Thread starter thunderkyss
- Start date
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
He sounded reasonable. He was higher on Kubiak than I am, he was straight about Schaub. Until Schaub actually does something in the playoffs, there will always be doubt about him, and rightly so. He also said something we've all be saying around here, we need another good WR before the offense can take the next step. He said you have to have two good wide outs to be effective, and that's the truth. We have one. A damn good one, but he's still just one.
I liked the interview. And I wouldn't put nothing on the fact he said he could win the Super Bowl with the Texans. It was more of an off the cuff remark than something real definate.
I liked the interview. And I wouldn't put nothing on the fact he said he could win the Super Bowl with the Texans. It was more of an off the cuff remark than something real definate.
Loosing Cushing was big, but Cowher also hit on another thing. Injuries to that position. Dobbins got hurt, James got hurt, Sharpton got hurt... Barrett Ruud probably didn't expect to play as much when he signed on.
I don't think continuity is as important for the position as it is for your offensive line, but if you look, it was one week after another. It was rare that we started the same two ILBs in back to back weeks after Cushing went down & it was just as rare that the two guys that started the game were the same two guys that ended the game.
Then we caught an injury bug at the safety position for a little bit as well.
I don't like to blame injuries, & we managed to win quite a few of those games regardless. But I think our situation was unusual & our coaches handled it about as well as could be expected.
He also mentioned a little bit of luck helping Baltimore get to the dance. Team of destiny he said.
bckey
All Pro
Agreed. I think the loss of Cushing was huge. And Schaub has to step up his game and prove he can take this team to the sb. I would also throw in the fact that RS sent the right side of the ol packing in the offseason. Drafting project wrs didn't help either.
Thanks for the link TK!
It sucks when you take "educated" chances like that & they don't work out. Surely we expected some drop off going from Winston & Briesel to Butler & Gump... surely they could "hold the fort" until the future was ready to play..... but nooooooo. They both get hurt early, Butler before the season started.
Now... WR. He's only been working on this for 6 seasons & we've got nothing to show for it. From day one, we were in no position to field 3 WRs...... that's a fail imo. Coaching staff & Smith (scouting department) we've brought plenty of WRs in over that time & haven't found one to stick, then get yourself in a situation where you're overpaying not one, but two #3 WRs... fail.
De nada
Not saying we shouldn't still try and upgrade the position but posey was on his way to becoming #2 before he got hurt. he was really starting to look like he was becoming legit. I still think Martin has the skill set to become a solid slot WR. He had a rough freshman year i know but most WR's make a big jump in their second year.
I like the three of them. Posey, Martin, & LeStar.
My gripe, is that we didn't have a third receiver. I remember discussing this before the season started. "We" said we should be able to get a rookie fresh off the draft to produce Walter/Jacoby type of numbers, a productive #3.
But I'm not blaming the kids, I'm blaming the leadership, the F.O. the scouts, the coaches. We got nothing out of Dorin Dickerson, or Andre Davis... I'm missing David freak'n Anderson right now, that's how bad this is.
But hey...... they can't all be homeruns right?
SAMURAITEXAN
All Pro
We ain't drafting WR high for last several years I think highest is 3rd. Higher than 3rd would be 2002 2nd rd Gaffney and 2003 1st rd Dre and that is all. We may need to draft higher to find that may stick. I am not saying Mid to Late rds or UDFA won't cut it but I think we may have better chance to find more promising prospects in earlier rds IMO. However, I don't know if this is the year for WR to go early rounds.
The problem was that Gary and Rick liked them too much. After a combined 22 catches for 2 TDs, how do they like them now? I realize that the Texans could not afford to go after a legit FA WR last year. But who put then in that position? All of these contracts belong to this brain trust.
If the offense's problems are going to be laid on the inexperience of the 3rd WRs and the right side of the O-line, that's on Smithiak's overconfidence in their scouting/coaching abilities. I don't think that was is entirely true, but what are the plans to solve these issues? Hope the young guys get better? Draft more young guys to protect and produce for QB who is a year older and slower? I'm not going to criticize moves that haven't been made. But these guys need to come up with a better plan than last season.
They can evaluate the players correctly, but when those guys don't perform to their capacity, it's tough.
Jean is a guy who made his mark in college with over the head catches, but he dropped a few big ones last year.
Martin dropped but maybe once or twice his entire senior year and never slipped on a route; but he dropped 4 or 5 balls in very few passes thrown his way, and slipped on another. His drop rate is supposed to be less than 2%; instead, it became 20% percent or so; that was just ridiculous.
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bckey
All Pro
You got that right.
Yeah... that's what I said. That's exactly what I said.
I know people are calling for Joe Marciano's head. But at least he's had some success in the time that he's been here. The guy I think we should be looking at is Larry Kirksey. He's been here since 2007 & we haven't developed 1 WR. We've had plenty come through here & his best "job" to date is Jacoby Jones.
That's the guy who's stealing money.
As far as the right side of the OL goes, I think Benton & Rico are doing their job. The drop off we saw "shouldn't" have been so bad if Butler & Caldwell were in fact the starters. But they both got hurt & we got Newton/Harris, Jones/Brooks. still they did an admirable job when you consider Matt was one of the least sacked QBs, he threw for 4000 yards, Andre grabed 100+ catches for 1500 yards & Foster ran for 1400.... the problem was not being able to do it when we needed to. But overall, I think they made good out of a bad situation.
Lestar Jean was a UDFA. Keshawn Martin was a raw receiver who made most of his plays at Michigan State as a returner or catching bubble screens. Expecting these guys to step into a key role in a NFL offense is not evaluating players correctly.
I'm not into passing the buck to the assistants. If Kirksey hasn't been getting the job done, Kubiak should have looked elsewhere long ago. To be fair to Kirksey, he's been given one HOF talent and little else. He's not shopping for the groceries, as far as we know.
Jean was an UDFA, yes, but they also saw something there when he beat a couple of CBs who were drafted (what's his name from UT? - was one).
They didn't expect him to be up to par right away; he was a project, and that was true.
But we all saw some good plays from him that we hope is worth the wait (for cheap).
Martin wasn't just a guy who takes bubble screen at Mich. St.
He ran plenty of routes from the slot and also from the wide out spots.
That's why the Texans "fast-tracked" him (a little too soon for my taste.)
I would rather have him in return duties and then work him in as a receiver slowly.
There's nothing wrong with that when he's a mid round pick.
I was hoping that Posey can get up to par sooner.
You can see that he was showing the sign of being a better option than the other two when given the chance.
Nobody expected them to play a big role, but I definitely didn't expect Jean and Martin to drop that many passes and/or running poor routes as they did.
He seemed genuine to me. He sounded as if he truly believes Kubiak is a "great" HC. But I'm sure he was hamming it up a little bit. What I thought was interesting was that he said Kubiak "will get better"
I personally think that should be true for all coaches, head coaches, coordinators, position coaches... once you stop getting better, it's time to move on. Because, as you know, the game is constantly changing. You've got defensive guys out scheming offensive guys, offensive guys out scheming defensive guys. You've got 6'6" TEs that can run like deer & 2nd year DL playing like 24 year veterans.
But I wonder how much of himself does Cowher sees in Kubiak. How many times did Cowher think his team was good enough, only to fall short? I remember a couple of years before he won the SuperBowl the talking heads had him on the hot-seat. So I would think he also knows that "lucky I have a job" feeling.
I think what Cowher learned was the value of the QB position. He had the Steelers playing great defense with a strong running attack for years, but continued to fall short. And he went through 3 QBs (O'Donnell, Stewart, and Maddux) before finding one that could take the team all the way.
Matt Schaub may be Kubiak's Neil O'Donnell. Hopefully, we don't get Kordell Stewart and Tommy Maddux before seeing Kubiak's Ben Roethlisberger.
I'm pretty sure everyone involved with the NFL understands the value of the QB position. The guy touches the ball on practically every offensive snap.
Unlike Cowher, Kubiak comes from an organization that had that QB everyone knew could get it done (ala Peyton Manning) but still failed to win the Lombardy more times than not. After Elway Kubiak & Shanahan got close one time. So I'm sure he knows the value of the position.
The thing we all need to learn, is not only do you have to have the right QB, but you've got to have the right team behind them. Jim Kelly is a good example. You can't tell me he wasn't good enough. Warren Moon, Dan Marino, I'll even throw in Cunningham. They were all good enough, imo, but QBs don't win Super Bowls. They don't win championships. They can win games but it takes a team to win Championships.
Tom Brady & Ben Roethlisbergers weren't very good QBs when they won their first Super Bowl. Both were better QBs when they won their second. Brady much better when he won his third. They are both way much better QBs now than they were then & it's been awhile since they've won a championship. But you take Vinatieri of those Patriots teams, how many Super Bowls does Belichick have?
I don't know if the Texans have the "right team". I am sure that they don't have the right QB. Schuab is closer to Neil O'Donnell (who actually got to a Super Bowl) than Marino, Moon, or Kelly. And while Roethlisberger didn't have a great Super Bowl XL, his 8 TDs - 1 Int performance in the playoffs certainly helped get them there. No, I think anyone who is familiar with the game would say that Roethlisberger in 2005 was a better QB than Schaub in 2012.
Yeah, well my intention wasn't to get into an argument about it, nor did I intend to suggest Matt is the right QB. Just pointing out that while the QB does have value, so does the other 52 guys that make up a roster. The key is to find that balance.
Ben & Tom are both better QBs now than when they won Super Bowls, but both are asked to do a lot more as well.
Thanks for the link TK.
And I'm now officially a Cowher fan. Any dude that's into Earth, Wind, and Fire and Donna Summer is okay in my book.
Interesting how he asked "Do I have a healthy Brian Cushing?" and not "Do I have a healthy Matt Schaub or Arian Foster or Andre Johnson...
And I'm now officially a Cowher fan. Any dude that's into Earth, Wind, and Fire and Donna Summer is okay in my book.
Interesting how he asked "Do I have a healthy Brian Cushing?" and not "Do I have a healthy Matt Schaub or Arian Foster or Andre Johnson...
MEGA SWATT
All Pro
Interesting comments from BC. Thanks OP.
All those guys were healthy this year.
Txn_in_FL
All Pro
I don't see how that's the case. If your starters are out injured then your also rans are in the game. There is a reason they are second string and not starters. You will get some production out of them but there's no way you can expect the same result or impact. I think it was pretty obvious when Cushing went down.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
My response would be, "It's a game of attrition."
Probably can't expect the same results, but it's the teams job to have at least competent replacements, and the coaches' jobs to coach around it.
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You know, all this stuff comes back to QB play. QB is the one position that has wins and losses tied to their stats and for good reason. No it's not all on the QB. Not even close....BUT when you have a qb that is playing well you have a shot to win ever game...every year...every play-off run....
When your QB plays the way Schaub played down the stretch and in certain sports this year, it takes a monumental effort from the rest of the team.
In the Superbowl, the Ravens didn't have everything going for them. Pollard didn't have a great game, Ray Lewis was not good, Ngata got injured, Ray Rice didn't have a good game, their O-line gave up a bunch of pressure, Torrey Smith didn't have a great game...Terrell Suggs didn't have a great game...
What you did have was a QB that was escaping pressure, making throws down field...making great throws for much of the game.
You also had a return kick from Jacoby and a big receiving play. An interception by Ed Reed...And then some good all around play from the defense on multiple occasions.
The best way I can put it is that a football team getting a win is like a pie chart (from a player performance perspective). Just by the nature of the QB position he's going to get weighted more heavily. You need to get 100% someway to fill up the pie chart. You either have to have a dominant defensive performance. A good all around game from everyone. A great special teams performance...Something....
Over the course of the play-offs (when you are facing the best teams playing their hardest) you cannot win all the games required to hold a Lombardi with sub standard QB play. People that want to back Schaub may not want to hear that, but you can win with your O-line giving up some pressure...Not having a great run game...only one receiving target having a great game...your defense giving up points...your MLB being old and not as good...an injury to a key player...one or more of your top players not doing much of anything...
Yeah, you need other guys to step up, but during a play-off run the guys that step up will vary from game to game. Maybe your qb can have 1 off game...MAYBE....But most likely your QB has to be on when it counts or you won't win. That's just reality.
If Schaub doesn't play better than he did down the stretch this past season, we aren't winning anything with him at QB. Put that in the bank. Cushing, or no Cushing. With the way the NFL is built these days if your QB is not on, your chances of winning go down exponentially compared to other areas of the team.
My main concern heading into next year is Schaub playing better or finding someone who can.
Building a super team around Schaub where he can have bad games during the play-offs but the defense, running game, special teams, and coaches beast out is not realistic. Whatever other changes we make this off season are not even relevant if Schaub doesn't play better down the stretch.
When your QB plays the way Schaub played down the stretch and in certain sports this year, it takes a monumental effort from the rest of the team.
In the Superbowl, the Ravens didn't have everything going for them. Pollard didn't have a great game, Ray Lewis was not good, Ngata got injured, Ray Rice didn't have a good game, their O-line gave up a bunch of pressure, Torrey Smith didn't have a great game...Terrell Suggs didn't have a great game...
What you did have was a QB that was escaping pressure, making throws down field...making great throws for much of the game.
You also had a return kick from Jacoby and a big receiving play. An interception by Ed Reed...And then some good all around play from the defense on multiple occasions.
The best way I can put it is that a football team getting a win is like a pie chart (from a player performance perspective). Just by the nature of the QB position he's going to get weighted more heavily. You need to get 100% someway to fill up the pie chart. You either have to have a dominant defensive performance. A good all around game from everyone. A great special teams performance...Something....
Over the course of the play-offs (when you are facing the best teams playing their hardest) you cannot win all the games required to hold a Lombardi with sub standard QB play. People that want to back Schaub may not want to hear that, but you can win with your O-line giving up some pressure...Not having a great run game...only one receiving target having a great game...your defense giving up points...your MLB being old and not as good...an injury to a key player...one or more of your top players not doing much of anything...
Yeah, you need other guys to step up, but during a play-off run the guys that step up will vary from game to game. Maybe your qb can have 1 off game...MAYBE....But most likely your QB has to be on when it counts or you won't win. That's just reality.
If Schaub doesn't play better than he did down the stretch this past season, we aren't winning anything with him at QB. Put that in the bank. Cushing, or no Cushing. With the way the NFL is built these days if your QB is not on, your chances of winning go down exponentially compared to other areas of the team.
My main concern heading into next year is Schaub playing better or finding someone who can.
Building a super team around Schaub where he can have bad games during the play-offs but the defense, running game, special teams, and coaches beast out is not realistic. Whatever other changes we make this off season are not even relevant if Schaub doesn't play better down the stretch.
Having an immobile noodle-arm choke-under-pressure QB is always a liability to playoff teams, not an asset.
Obviously, having a good QB enhances the chance to win.
I just read an article (but didn't note the source), the common trait of SB Bowl participants are still a good defense on top of it all.
The winners allowed fewer than 18 points in the regular season; the looser 19.
The Texans didn't have that.
There's always abnormality, but you get the gist of it.
I just read an article (but didn't note the source), the common trait of SB Bowl participants are still a good defense on top of it all.
The winners allowed fewer than 18 points in the regular season; the looser 19.
The Texans didn't have that.
There's always abnormality, but you get the gist of it.
Great post Rey. Lengthy read, but I think you hit all the major points. There is no question Matt has to play better than he did at any point in the regular season.
It's really hard to know what to believe in hindsight. You "feel" like Schaub had a below standard year, but you look at the stats & he was par for the year. 4000 yards, nothing to brag about when you've come to expect it from your QB. 22 TDs, yeah I'd like to see more, but Matt's only thrown for more twice in his long career. 12 INTs, he's never thrown for less than 12 in a season he's started all 16 games (since becoming a starter that's only happened 3 times). And then there's that winning 12 games thing.
I felt Matt played well (not good, not great) in three games during the regular season. Denver, Detroit, & Jacksonville. I feel like he had a sub par year taking advantage of the run game & the defensive turnovers.
But 4000 yards, 22 TDs, 12 int, 90.9 QbR in a bad year? It's not like everyone was saying Matt was playing great all year. All year they were saying he need to play better. All year they were saying the defense or the run game bailed him out. All year...... but he still threw for 4000 yards, 22 Tds, 12 ints, & a 90.9 QBr. So we all know he can play better. Despite his arm strength, despite his lack of mobility, despite his ho-hum mentality, we all know Matt Schaub can play better.
& still he played better than Joe Flacco in the regular season.
3 games in the post season completely flipped how the majority of people viewed Joe Flacco. Yeah, there was two or three Ravens fans that knew it all along. But other than that, Flacco's name was not among the better QBs in the league, now he's somewhere near the top.
Who'd have been talking about Joe Flacco if Jacoby did not make that spectacular catch against Denver? Up until that point, Flacco had elevated his game, but if not for that catch, it was good, but not good enough & that's how we would have remembered it. He made some big throws to Torrey Smith early in the game, Anquan Bolden made some amazing catches...... but we'd have forgotten them & all that if Jacoby dropped that ball.
That same weekend Schaub serves up a beauty of a TD pass to a fan favorite, sure handed receiving target as that player was crossing the goal line. Couldn't serve it up any better. But he dropped it.
I honestly don't see how our fans do not relate that drop with Jacoby's muff last season. Last season Jacoby's muff gives the Ravens the momentum to eventually win that game.
If we score that TD right there, is it possible that our defense "believes" our offense was going to do their part? Is it possible that we'd have seen a totally different game from those guys? If James Casey would have caught that easy, easy TD.
Of course if Matt & Andre were on the same page they could have erased that on the next play, but that didn't happen either.
Again, Matt had a "poor" play-offs. But you look at his stats for the two games he did play..... 65% + completion in both games. 250 yards one game, 340 the other game. 83 QBr against the Bengals, 90 QBr against the Patriots..... what are the odds that we'd be thinking differently of Matt Schaub right now, had James Casey caught that gimme in the end zone? & our defense play like they do when we have a lead?
What are the odds we'd be thinking differently about Flacco had Jacoby not caught that amazing catch to extend that game in Denver?
The NFL is a funny beast.
Once you think you've got it all figured out, Jacoby Jones enters the Super Bowl MVP conversation.
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Tailgate
Fall of Hame
We run the effing zone running scheme.... And its a well known fact that this offense needs a dominant O-LINE to succeed. PERIOD. We did not have that last year and EVERYTHING suffered as a result. We lose Cushing, then bam... There goes our leader and bone crusher in the middle of the D.
Tk, do you remember the rosencopter game?
Sage had a decent game overall. Had the defense not allowed the subsequent scores that lost us the game, is sage a better qb in your view?
Sage could make things happen on the field but he was mistake prone. No one cares that romo puts up numbers. He doesn't perform when you absolutely need it. Difference with romo is that you know he can physically do it, but mentally...questionable...
With schaub it's a question of both. Chad Pennington and John kitna both put up good numbers as starters. I don't want either as my franchise guy.
Can schaub physically make the plays in crucial moments...can he make the throws that most championship qb's have to make on their way to winning the sb? Can he escape pressure and make plays outside the pocket when it calls for it (because it will call for it)?
Then after all that, Im not sold that he can even mentally make the crucial plays down the stretch.
Schaub has big questions to answer and I don't know how anyone says they have complete faith that he will make those plays in the end. I think this is his make or break year honestly. If he plays this upcoming season like he finished last year he will probably be done as a starting qb here and I don't really seeing many teams making him their starting franchise qb.
Spotlight is on schaub. Hopefully he rises to the occasion like a champ.
Sage had a decent game overall. Had the defense not allowed the subsequent scores that lost us the game, is sage a better qb in your view?
Sage could make things happen on the field but he was mistake prone. No one cares that romo puts up numbers. He doesn't perform when you absolutely need it. Difference with romo is that you know he can physically do it, but mentally...questionable...
With schaub it's a question of both. Chad Pennington and John kitna both put up good numbers as starters. I don't want either as my franchise guy.
Can schaub physically make the plays in crucial moments...can he make the throws that most championship qb's have to make on their way to winning the sb? Can he escape pressure and make plays outside the pocket when it calls for it (because it will call for it)?
Then after all that, Im not sold that he can even mentally make the crucial plays down the stretch.
Schaub has big questions to answer and I don't know how anyone says they have complete faith that he will make those plays in the end. I think this is his make or break year honestly. If he plays this upcoming season like he finished last year he will probably be done as a starting qb here and I don't really seeing many teams making him their starting franchise qb.
Spotlight is on schaub. Hopefully he rises to the occasion like a champ.
bckey
All Pro
lol!
My opinion of Sage never changed. Rosencopter didn't phase me one bit. We were a team hungry for wins & he was trying to get us a win against our nemesis. Funny that now, Kubiak gets criticized for getting a lead & trying to run the ball. The same guys that criticize him for it, are the same guys dumping on Sage for not turtling up.
If I had my rathers, I'd have started Sage & looked for a franchise QB before I traded two 2nds for a 4 year back-up with 1 decent game under his belt. We basically drafted Brandon Weeden. Sage is a gamer & would've tried his butt off for every third down, & every red zone possession. He might have made a few mistakes here & there but I believe his play making would make up for it.
But that doesn't mean Schaub is worthless..... & after watching him play for 6 seasons, I've got no idea why he was chosen to run a WCO.
I do not have complete faith in Schaub. Your criticism of Schuab makes a lot more sense than what we've been seeing on this board lately. I just choose not to jump in on the madness. The questions about Schaub are more mental than anything. We've seen him make big plays with big throws down field. Not perfect.... but prior to 2012 he made 40+ yard throws with more regularity than most of the big names (76 has the numbers for you).. We've seen him make plays outside the pocket. It's rare, but it happens. Go back & watch the Raiders game from last season he made several off-schedule plays.
Schaub didn't play well enough for us to beat New England.... nobody did. If Arian played better I think we win that game. If Newton & Jones plays better, I think we win that game. If OD & Graham abused the Patriots LBs like every body else's TEs, I think we win that game.
If Connor Barwin has a better game, we win. If Brooks Reed had a better game, we win. If Antonio Smith, or even Jj Watt had a better game, we win. If Kj, Jj, or Manning gets a pick 6 or two, we win the game. If Quin or Manning forces a few fumbles...
We expected everyone of those guys to step up & play championship football. None of them did.
Who was our Shane Vareen? Our Jacoby Jones?
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Using my logic & assuming we'd have used one of those 2nd round picks on a QB, we'd have
- Kevin Kolb
- John Beck
- Drew Stanton
- Brian Brohm
- Chad Henne
as our franchise QB. I'd love to have seen what Kubiak could have done with Kolb, Stanton, or Henne.
Lets say I fully buy into your points in this post. (for the record, I do buy into a lot of it.) That would actually make me feel worse about this team moving forward. That means that our coaching staff and/or GM have not done nearly a good enough job of finding championship caliber level players and or getting players to play at that level.
Who was our Vareen? Hard to have a guy like that when you have Kubiak not even willing to play Ben Tate or Forsett who have usable skills....Maybe Ben Tate or Forsett could have provided something different and made some big plays...Who knows?
Who was our Jacoby Jones? Well we had Jacoby Jones. We had Trindon Holiday...We let those guys go and I wasn't one of the fans saying either needed to be released for football reasons. I defended Jacoby til the end, but realized that he was going to need a fresh start somewhere because the city was against him. Hard to concentrate on football when you have a city that would spit on you if they saw you (maybe worse).
Again, this isn't all on Matt Schaub. It's a combination of funk. From all phases. But for me, it revolves around Schaub and Kubiak. Next up would be Wade and Marciano and I'm not exactly sure where Rick Smith fits.
I've seen the defense play championship level football. Defense had a bunch of injuries this year. Offense had everyone intact. They had the full list of ingredients to choose from all year long and Chef Kub-are-dee didn't fix a good enough dish.
Wade didn't either and he could have done a better job. You have Watt having a historic season inside and you can't find a compliment on the outside. Fail.
I know Wade can fix his issues though. I'm convinced that he can. So I'm hopeful for the defense. Cushing coming back will be huge too.
What deeply concerns me about the offense is that I don't know if Kubiak as a head coach can make the decisions and calls to win games when it counts. Same with Schaub.
Great post, a lot of good stuff in there.
I think your concerns are valid & worthy of discussion. I can talk to you & read your posts & everything is everything. What I don't like are the people saying they know for sure that Kubiak & Schaub can't. They can identify all the issues that we have on this team & totally disregard that we won 12 games & a play off game two years in a row despite those deficiencies.
How many times did Mike Smith & the Falcons not win 12 games or a play off game? This kind of stuff happens. How many times has the Bengals gotten to the play offs only to be one & done? How many times have the Cowboys done the same?
We're not where we want to be, I understand that. But we aren't where we don't want to be either.
If we were Ravens fans we'd have been ready to get rid of Flacco two years ago.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
Talk about a list of failure and bad dreams
b0ng
Bad Hombre
And how exactly would this be known.