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Cowboys .. NT Manslaughter

infantrycak said:
Frankly, if nobody is injured, yes.
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Sorry, I don't think you should be put back out there repeatedly until you do hurt someone. I'm not commenting on the amount of time, but the mere fact that 3-time offenders exist (4-time, in my personal experience) tells me all I need to know about the severity of the first two (three) punishments.
 
eriadoc said:
Sorry, I don't think you should be put back out there repeatedly until you do hurt someone. I'm not commenting on the amount of time, but the mere fact that 3-time offenders exist (4-time, in my personal experience) tells me all I need to know about the severity of the first two (three) punishments.
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I am with Eriadoc on this one. It is like playing russian roulette. Just because you got lucky and didn't hurt someone, doesn't mean you shouldn't be taken off the road and stuck in a jail cell. Too many cases of repeat offenders.
 
eriadoc said:
Sorry, I don't think you should be put back out there repeatedly until you do hurt someone. I'm not commenting on the amount of time, but the mere fact that 3-time offenders exist (4-time, in my personal experience) tells me all I need to know about the severity of the first two (three) punishments.
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I believe a first offense that someone should receive probation and counseling. If they can not afford the counseling then the state should foot the bill, because in the long run it would save the state money and it would save lives.

Most people who drink have driven intoxicated (by the letter of the law). A couple glasses of wine with dinner can put you over.

You do not want to destroy someones life over one mistake. I am sorry if i offend anyone but a first time offender deserves a chance to prove he has learned his lesson. Why make it so the person has no other choice but to turn to crime to put food on the table.
 
eriadoc said:
Sorry, I don't think you should be put back out there repeatedly until you do hurt someone. I'm not commenting on the amount of time, but the mere fact that 3-time offenders exist (4-time, in my personal experience) tells me all I need to know about the severity of the first two (three) punishments.
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Respecting your position, please spell out the sentencing structure you would suggest.
 
infantrycak said:
Respecting your position, please spell out the sentencing structure you would suggest.
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First time should be as harsh as you can reasonably impose without jail sentencing. I'm talking probation, community service, and mandatory counseling with some AA-type organization. Maybe make them go out and clean up some drunk driver accident sites. Second time should be jail. If you didn't learn your lesson from that first set of punishment, then you're not going to stop doing it. I don't know how long in jail, but assuming no injury to anyone, maybe 6 months. Once you get out, driving privileges should be revoked or severely restricted. If you fk up a third time, you go away for a long time - maybe not ten years, but a long time. If you injure and/or kill anyone in any of those incidents, there should be a separate crime and sentencing structure. Frankly, I don't find the punishment for intoxicated manslaughter to be harsh enough, but that's just me, I'm sure.

I agree there should be latitude in sentencing, as you alluded to above. There are very few, if any, things in life that I go zero tolerance on. But in the case of drinking and driving, that decision is made before you ever pour alcohol down your neck. We have fostered a culture in this country where it's OK to "just have a couple" and then drive home. The problem with that is you leave the judgment of whether or not impairment exists to the person who's impaired.

At the end of this all, people need to recognize that drunk driving is one of the biggest killers in this country, and it's not self inflicted. It's people deliberately choosing to risk other people's lives. That is unacceptable.
 
eriadoc said:
If you injure and/or kill anyone in any of those incidents, there should be a separate crime and sentencing structure. Frankly, I don't find the punishment for intoxicated manslaughter to be harsh enough, but that's just me, I'm sure.

I agree there should be latitude in sentencing, as you alluded to above.
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I do not disagree with you at all.
 
Specnatz said:
After doing some research I take back everything i said.

This is flat out amazing

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/austin-man-gets-probation-in-crash-that-killed-two/nS7hw/

I am shocked, is all I can say.
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This case is all over the place. There's underage drinking & driving without seatbelts.

If the thought is that seat belts could have saved those kids, I don't think the driver should be held accountable for those deaths.

I think whoever is responsible for the kids getting the alcohol should be held responsible. This may be the driver for all I know.

Probation plus 180 days in jail... hmmmmmm
 
TABC gets into the act.

Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission spokeswoman Carolyn Beck confirmed that at least one Dallas club is being investigated in connection with the accident that killed Cowboys' Jerry Brown early Saturday morning.

Brown, a practice squad linebacker, had died early Saturday morning in a one-vehicle crash in Irving. Cowboys nose tackle Josh Brent faces criminal charges in the crash.

“We’ve been told they were drinking at more than one location,” Beck said.

However, she declined to name specific businesses.

Dallas TV and radio stations reported that Brown and Brent had been at Privae Dallas, a private club where comedian Shawn Wayans performed Friday night.

Privae often has Cowboys as guests and had scheduled a birthday bash for Cowboys star Dez Bryant in November.

A Twitter account registered to Privae Dallas indicated that Cowboys were at the club Friday night. "#Cowboys!! Surprise Celeb guests!!" it said.

Privae is a members-only club. According to its Website, Privae reserves "the right to refuse entry to anyone for any reason regardless of table reservations, guest list and/or VIP Pass." It has a "very DIFFICULT door policy. There is NO one size fits all approach and everyone is evaluated per individual and cannot be compared to others. A combination of three (3) things are taken into consideration: 1. Style; 2. Attitude; 3. Appearance"

Investigators are looking for any license violations, including serving alcohol to intoxicated customers.

Privae's human resources manager Joe Beamer released a statement Monday: "In regard to the auto accident that took the life of Dallas Cowboy Jerry Brown, we are saddened by the events of the weekend. Our hearts go out to Mr. Brown’s family and friends, and the entire Cowboys organization.

"Privae Dallas is a club that offers its guests a special level of privacy and often caters to celebrities. The safety of our guests is very important to us, and our staff is trained to follow the regulations set forth by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission (TABC).

"We are fully cooperating with the TABC and Irving police, and respect that the event is under investigation. Because of that, we must ask that all questions be directed to the Irving police department and their team."

Police say Brent was intoxicated when he lost control of a 2007 Mercedes about 2 a.m. Saturday as he and Brown were driving home after a night of partying. Brown suffered fatal injuries as the car rolled over and caught fire near State Highway 114 and Loop 12.

Police said in an affidavit that they could “smell a moderate odor of alcohol emitting from … [Brent’s] breath” after the crash.

“He admitted to consuming alcohol at a club that he would not tell me the name of,” one officer wrote.

Brent initially refused to let his blood be drawn to determine his blood alcohol level, but after Brown’s death, he faced a mandatory test.
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Witness says she had to beg Josh Brent to pull Jerry Brown from car

By Houston Mitchell

December 12, 2012, 8:14 a.m.

The death of Dallas Cowboys linebacker Jerry Brown in a car accident just gets sadder and sadder. According to a witness, teammate Josh Brent, who was driving the car when it crashed, had to be begged repeatedly to pull Brown from the burning wreckage in which he was trapped.

Stacee McWilliams was one of the first two people to come across the crash scene, she told the Dallas Morning News.

"When I first pulled up to the scene, there was a little bit of a flame coming from the flipped vehicle, like in the engine area. Just a very small flame and I wasn't too overly concerned for that. I jumped out of my vehicle and ran up to make sure that everyone was OK. As I got closer to the scene, there was a gentleman, which I later found out was Josh Brent, that was standing off to the right side of the wreckage, kind of pacing back and forth, you know, walking around.

"I asked him if he was OK, I said 'Is everyone OK?', 'Are you all right?', and he responded to me, he said that he was fine. The person that was in the other vehicle stepped out of her car and she said 'I've already called 9-1-1, they're on the way' .... But it took no time at all for this fire to really get engaged. It became very hot, very bright, very big and then I started to hear screams coming from inside the vehicle and it was a man's voice saying 'Help me', you know, 'Help, somebody help me'. And I turned and looked at the [Brent], and I said 'Is there a passenger? Is there somebody in the car?'. And he said 'Yeah'. And I told him 'Well, get him out of the car'.
"Josh looked at me and he said 'He won't get out of the car'. And I said 'Well, you can't just leave him in there and let him die. You've got to help him. Go get him'. And I commanded him several times and Josh looked at me, and he again said 'He won't get out of the car'. And I told him 'You can't stand here and watch him die. You've got to get him out'."

Brent eventually pulled Brown from the car.
"I want people to understand that Josh Brent is not a hero," McWilliams said. "I keep hearing reports of how he was there to pull his friend from the fire, but he had to be coerced and pushed and begged and pleaded to get his friend out of the fire. And when he pulled him out, he just left him in the street. He didn't tell him 'Hang in there, help is on the way'. Nothing. He just left him there and I want the magnitude of that to be understood."
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eriadoc said:
First time should be as harsh as you can reasonably impose without jail sentencing. I'm talking probation, community service, and mandatory counseling with some AA-type organization. Maybe make them go out and clean up some drunk driver accident sites. Second time should be jail. If you didn't learn your lesson from that first set of punishment, then you're not going to stop doing it. I don't know how long in jail, but assuming no injury to anyone, maybe 6 months. Once you get out, driving privileges should be revoked or severely restricted. If you fk up a third time, you go away for a long time - maybe not ten years, but a long time. If you injure and/or kill anyone in any of those incidents, there should be a separate crime and sentencing structure. Frankly, I don't find the punishment for intoxicated manslaughter to be harsh enough, but that's just me, I'm sure.

I agree there should be latitude in sentencing, as you alluded to above. There are very few, if any, things in life that I go zero tolerance on. But in the case of drinking and driving, that decision is made before you ever pour alcohol down your neck. We have fostered a culture in this country where it's OK to "just have a couple" and then drive home. The problem with that is you leave the judgment of whether or not impairment exists to the person who's impaired.

At the end of this all, people need to recognize that drunk driving is one of the biggest killers in this country, and it's not self inflicted. It's people deliberately choosing to risk other people's lives. That is unacceptable.
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Well said, man. I'd add mandatory breathalysers on ignitions at the owner's expense for all first time offenders, as well.

Truly sad story, and pathetic in light of the fact that the NFL has a chaperone policy in place for all 32 teams. Any player can just call a number and a service will pick them up.
 
DALLAS -- The Dallas Cowboys lineman at the wheel of the fatal crash that killed his teammate on Dec. 8 had a blood alcohol level more than twice the legal limit, according to a Dallas Morning News report.

Third-year nose tackle Josh Brent failed a field sobriety test and refused a breathalyzer test at the scene, according to a police affidavit. But authorities were able to order his blood drawn because the wreck killed Cowboys linebacker Jerry Brown Jr.

According to the newspaper, the blood test revealed a 0.18 level, well above Texas' .08 threshold for driving drunk.

"That's approximately 14 drinks or so for a man his size," Dwain Fuller, a forensic toxicologist who has testified as an expert witness in court cases for more than 25 years, told Yahoo! Sports. Brent is listed at 6-foot-2, 320 pounds.

Fuller, who is not connected to the case, said the estimated number of drinks Brent consumed could vary depending on his history with alcohol and how long he'd been drinking prior to the wreck. The Morning News attributed its story to an unidentified law enforcement source familiar with the investigation.

Officer John Argumaniz, a spokesman with the Irving Police Department, told Yahoo! Sports investigators have not received test results from the lab. He said detectives will soon meet with prosecutors to discuss the investigation before it is officially filed.

"We are still working on the case," Officer Argumaniz wrote in an email.
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From The Dallas News:

Josh Brent ignored two separate programs designed to assist players who believe they are too drunk to drive when he got behind the wheel early Saturday morning.

The Cowboys player assistance department has a two-pronged approach. The club has two limo companies lined up to take a player home if he doesn’t believe he should drive. The department also employees a full-time staff person who is on call 24/7 to personally pick up players if needed.

Owner Jerry Jones said on the team’s flagship radio station Thursday that particular staff person has been called seven times by players this season to ask for a ride.

These options are available to the Cowboys in addition to the NFL Players Association hotline number that is included on their union cards.
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Brent will eventually be called to the principal's office.

RVING — NFL commissioner Roger Goodell said he expects to meet with Cowboys nose tackle Josh Brent in the near future.

“Likely, yes,” he said, when asked if the two will get together to talk about the one-vehicle accident Brent was involved in Saturday that led to the death of practice squad linebacker Jerry Brown and Brent’s arrest on a charge of intoxication manslaughter.

Brent, who has since been released from jail after posting a $500,000 bond, was placed on the non-football injury list Wednesday and was allowed to return to the Cowboys’ practice facility earlier this week.

“Ultimately, it’s a club decision,” Goodell said about the move at an NFL owners meeting. “We talked about it internally, with our staff. The club, as I say, is ultimately responsible for any roster movements, and they had made a determination that putting him on a list and allowing him to focus on other issues was the right decision and they came to that conclusion at the end of the day.”

With Brent’s status having changed, Goodell explained that the league is not in any rush to decide how it will punish the Cowboys nose tackle.

“Because he’s not active and he will not be involved with the club, I think we’ll allow the legal process to move forward a little bit and get a little more clarity on that front,” Goodell said.
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really sad considering the NFL has setup a car services for the players but I guess its not manly to call the service vs trying to drive
 
infantrycak said:
$90 per hour is what I saw - not that it changes your point.
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It's interesting to note that all of the original reports of the NFLPA service released in June of this year referred to the $85 charge. All the reports in the past week have quoted $90. I guess everybody's got to make a living......a sign of the economy and the inflation that doesn't exist.:chef:
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Irving police release dash cam footage, 911 calls from Brent wreck

I find that Brent's attorney's affect is somewhat curious......as is his implication that his client's BAC level 1 1/2 hrs after the actual time of the accident, would not necessarily extrapolate to him being intoxicated at the time of accident.
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If you chugged a bottle of vodka right before leaving the house you might not be legally intoxicated at the time of the accident but would be a hour later. Somewhat unlikely given they were bar hopping
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Irving police release dash cam footage, 911 calls from Brent wreck

I find that Brent's attorney's affect is somewhat curious......as is his implication that his client's BAC level 1 1/2 hrs after the actual time of the accident, would not necessarily extrapolate to him being intoxicated at the time of accident.
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We had a police officer up here in Vancouver a year back who was involved in a crash near to his home - phoned an ambulance, walked the few steps to his house, and 'had a drink to calm his nerves' whilst the ambulances were coming to help out. Got off with the DUI portion of the incident.
 
We'll probably never know what Brown's BAC was. My guess is that it had to be up there to get into that car with Brent to begin with. But neither were wearing seat belts. That being said, I'm not sure that I can accept Brown's mother reasoning..........besides the fact that she is evidently a good, forgiving person.

Brown's mother Stacey Jackson does not want Cowboys defensive tackle Josh Brent prosecuted after being charged with intoxication manslaughter following Brown's death in a car accident.

"I've forgiven (Brent), because he has enough on his plate with just reliving the whole thing over and over, and that's going to be for the rest of his life," Jackson told WFAA-TV via FoxSportsSouthwest.

She told Brent at her son's memorial service that it wasn't his fault.

"[Brent] just knew that I was going to blame him, or go off on him or hit him – but no," Jackson said Friday. "Jerry would frown down on me if I did that, because that's not the way I raised him.

"He wouldn't want you to blame yourself, because both of y'all didn't have seat belt. It was like a little burden lifted off [Brent]."
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EllisUnit said:
Is it just me or was this ass hole on the side lines during todays game ????
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This is the type of classy act you would expect from the Jerry and his Girls, not to mention CBS for making a point to specifically follow him on the sidelines.
Support by your team mates is one thing, but the tastelessness of the situation does not have to be flaunted in front of 100,000 live and millions over the airwaves. If they want to show their support, let them show it behind locked doors in their locker room.......where the stench is just as strong as the situation.
 
To demonstrate support, Jerry is making Brent the new Girls' team bus driver......under the condition that he blows less than 0.08 ..............before getting on and after getting off the bus.:kitten::spin:
 
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CloakNNNdagger said:
This is the type of classy act you would expect from the Jerry and his Girls, not to mention CBS for making a point to specifically follow him on the sidelines.
Support by your team mates is one thing, but the tastelessness of the situation does not have to be flaunted in front of 100,000 live and millions over the airwaves. If they want to show their support, let them show it behind locked doors in their locker room.......where the stench is just as strong as the situation.
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I think this was a pretty sleazy move by the Cowboys.
Nonetheless to be fair, the mother of the deceased asked that he be allowed back on the team.
 
Jerry and Jason supposedly both deny knowing anything about the fact that he was going to show up on the side lines.link
The Cowboys placed him on the non-football injury list, which makes him ineligible to play but he can attend team functions. He apparently left the sidelines during the second half.

“Our team and our players wanted him today on the sideline,” Jones said after the game. “Jerry’s mother asked us directly as a group. She said, ‘Support him. Help him. He needs your help. Jerry wants that. I want that.’ His teammates asked him to come and be down there with them, and that’s where we are.

“I do know that certainly that there’s the other side of the coin, but this is a case that the people that arguably he’s the closest to really wanting him around for him.”

Brent’s presence caused a bit of controversy, and will likely continue to. Cowboys Stadium is a big place, and if they wanted to have him around, there are a lot of places they can put him that wouldn’t be as conspicuous as the sidelines.
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I wouldn't be surprised if Jones'/Garret's statement was an after the fact concoction......after they saw the negative reaction that was produced by Brent's presence.:chef:
 
Autopsy shows that brown was sober.

Questions are now why was Brent driving then? Didn't want to give the keys?

DALLAS (AP) -- An autopsy has found that Dallas Cowboys practice squad player Jerry Brown Jr. was sober when he was killed in a crash that led to an intoxication manslaughter charge against the teammate at the wheel.
The Dallas County Medical Examiner's Office reported Thursday that Brown died of head and neck trauma when their vehicle overturned. He had a dislocated neck, a severely bruised spine and a blood alcohol content of 0.056 percent. That's well below the Texas drunken driving standard of 0.08 percent.
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http://sports.yahoo.com/news/autopsy-cowboys-player-killed-crash-000729738--nfl.html
 
infantrycak said:
Some people would show signs, most not. For a man his size that is two martinis consumed over 1.5 hours.
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Well it's not easy to guess how many drinks he could have per his bac because the number of variables is far too great. That said most resources that I have seen would put a rate of 2-3 drinks an hour for 2 hours around .05 to .06 for someone 260ish and down play it all you want but saying most wouldn't show any signs of impairment is just plain silly. Further more 0.05 is not sober.
 
2012Champs said:
Well it's not easy to guess how many drinks he could have per his bac because the number of variables is far too great. That said most resources that I have seen would put a rate of 2-3 drinks an hour for 2 hours around .05 to .06 for someone 260ish and down play it all you want but saying most wouldn't show any signs of impairment is just plain silly. Further more 0.05 is not sober.
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BS,

Three beers/drinks in an hr =impaired=LOL for most people, let alone a 260 lb man who is used to drinking.
 
2012Champs said:
Well it's not easy to guess how many drinks he could have per his bac because the number of variables is far too great. That said most resources that I have seen would put a rate of 2-3 drinks an hour for 2 hours around .05 to .06 for someone 260ish and down play it all you want but saying most wouldn't show any signs of impairment is just plain silly. Further more 0.05 is not sober.
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I got it from a police department BAC calculator which by the way included body weight. I am not playing down anything. I am contradicting your assertion which I find to be a ridiculous overstatement. To be clear, I am not saying someone at .05 has zero effects - sure propensity to laugh at or tell poor jokes, hug people maybe they shouldn't, evaluate their own looks too highly, etc. I am saying they will most often show no visible signs and have no physical impediment. In addition to the literature on it, it is common sense experience. Couples routinely go out to dinner, split a bottle of wine and maybe even have a drink before dinner or after and show absolutely no physical impediment and are easily in that BAC range. You seem to be acting like folks with a .05 are stumbling, mumbling drunks.
 
infantrycak said:
I got it from a police department BAC calculator which by the way included body weight. I am not playing down anything. I am contradicting your assertion which I find to be a ridiculous overstatement. To be clear, I am not saying someone at .05 has zero effects - sure propensity to laugh at or tell poor jokes, hug people maybe they shouldn't, evaluate their own looks too highly, etc. I am saying they will most often show no visible signs and have no physical impediment. In addition to the literature on it, it is common sense experience. Couples routinely go out to dinner, split a bottle of wine and maybe even have a drink before dinner or after and show absolutely no physical impediment and are easily in that BAC range. You seem to be acting like folks with a .05 are stumbling, mumbling drunks.
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No where did I say .05 was stumbling/mumbling drunks. If you could highlight where I said that please do so. Also while you are at it post all your resources that would support that 0.056 which is what Brown was shows no impairment for most people.

Also your drinks per hour seem to be off a bit which may be part of the issue. Two glasses of wine in a hour for 140ish person is around .03 200 lbs would be .02 three drinks in 2 hours the numbers stay around the same.
 
steelbtexan said:
BS,

Three beers/drinks in an hr =impaired=LOL for most people, let alone a 260 lb man who is used to drinking.
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That would be around .03 not .056 4 beers would still be under or around .05 however if you drink often you process alcohol more efficiently than those who don't. That's why I said trying to figure how many drinks were consumed is almost impossible.
 
In this and other thread, we’ve spoken about drinking and its effects. I just wanted to bring up some additional info as relates to “size” of an involved individual.

There is a deeply ingrained misconception about a large person, such as Brent always being able to drink more than a smaller person before exhibiting the effects of alcohol, or the level of effect, as well as how long the effects can last.

Yes, there will be some difference based on the total volume of blood in a small vs large person, and therefore some ability to dilute the alcohol somewhat in the larger person....not much of a factor when comparing a 200 pounder to a 300 pounder.

BUT

Body fat content is a commonly overlooked major factor in inebriation and length of inebriation. Body fat doesn’t absorb alcohol. Therefore a person with higher body fat is going to have a higher BAC than a person who has less body fat. Since body fat cannot absorb alcohol, it instead forces the alcohol to remain in the bloodstream until the liver can break it down. The liver can only break down about one alcoholic drink per hour. The longer the alcohol remains in a person’s bloodstream, the longer they will feel inebriated.

Women tend to have a higher BAC than men do. This is because women have a higher percentage of body fat and a smaller amount of an enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase that helps break down alcohol. Women also have less blood than men do because they are usually smaller in size.

Tolerance for alcohol seemed a lot higher when you are 21. The longer it took the inevitably feel the affects of alcohol, the more alcohol you probably consumed. Body fat tends to increase with age and enzyme action tends to slow down as a person gets older. And, again, body fat doesn’t absorb alcohol and the more body fat a person has, the higher their BAC will be and the more and longer he stays inebriated.

Also, as an aside, if a person is stressed or angry, they are likely to have a higher BAC than a person who is calm. When a person is under stress or is upset, their body tends to divert blood away from the stomach and small intestines, and instead moves it to the muscles. The reduced blood flow slows down the absorption of alcohol into the bloodstream. The angry or stressed person might not feel the affects of the alcohol immediately and continue drinking. As soon as the person calms down and the blood flow returns to the stomach, the person could experience a sudden increase in their BAC.
 
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