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Combine Coverage

I have to agree with Reddevil63. Mike Williams is an amazing talent. He's got excellent hands, and for him to run a 4.61 at his size is outstanding. He'll be a very good WR at the next level, and he is definately right behind Edwards as far as the best WR in the draft. I don't think Williams will end up at TE. He'll be just fine as a WR. Williamson is up there too. Clayton is an excellent route runner, and he's got good quickness. However, he doesn't have the ideal size you seek in a WR, and he'll have a tough time with the tougher and bigger corners in the NFL. Luckily he's already a good receiver against a zone defense so he's got that in his favor. IMO Clayton's not the 2nd or 3rd best WR in the draft. That doesn't mean he won't be a good WR in the NFL, but he'll probably last till the 2nd round.
 
I couldnt tell you how they fall in line after edwards or williams, but i watched nfl networks coverage of the combine and there are some BLAZING fast people at the WR position...i couldnt believe ol boy that ran in 4.3...he was flying...and he wasnt the only one....and yes many of them made Williams look slow...but for his size you have to like a 4.65 range for him.
 
texasguy346 said:
I have to agree with Reddevil63. Mike Williams is an amazing talent. He's got excellent hands, and for him to run a 4.61 at his size is outstanding.
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The link posted earlier on this thread listed official heights and weights from
the combine and Williams was 228 - that's < 10 lbs. more that what AJ played
@ last year, and I think AJ when in college and his rookie year in the NFL played rigth @ 229-230.
Nah, I'm not that impressed with Williams workout times - if you want impressive, how 'bout the big Euro QB/WR from Arkansas who is like 6'6", 240 lbs and ran 'bout 4.4 ! Now maybe Williams is a real football player and deserves to be ranked amoung the top 2 or 3 WRs, but a workout freak with outstanding athletic achievements he's not.
 
everybody is so high on Williams.. mark my words.. write this down.. whatever.

he is a career #2 guy. He is a Keyshawn Johnson. He will never even be mentioned in the same sentence as Andre Johnson.
 
Grid said:
everybody is so high on Williams.. mark my words.. write this down.. whatever.

he is a career #2 guy. He is a Keyshawn Johnson. He will never even be mentioned in the same sentence as Andre Johnson.
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Keyshawn is a reallllllllllllllllllll good comparison, IMO. However, to say Keyshawn is a career #2, isnt really true. If healthy, Keyshawn projects to at least 950+ yards every year.I wouldnt put him in the elite category, however at the same time, he certainly isnt a #2. I'd say he's a 1.5, lol.
 
WildBlackBear32 said:
Keyshawn is a reallllllllllllllllllll good comparison, IMO. However, to say Keyshawn is a career #2, isnt really true. If healthy, Keyshawn projects to at least 950+ yards every year.I wouldnt put him in the elite category, however at the same time, he certainly isnt a #2. I'd say he's a 1.5, lol.
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Yah :).. well.. put it this way.. I think Keyshawn SHOULD be a career #2. on a good team he WOULD be #2.. but hes on the cowboys and hes the best they got.

Mike Williams could be the #1 guy on a team like the Bears.. or the 49ers.. or the Jaguars. Or he could be a #1 on a power running team. But he is NOT a pro bowl quality receiver.. and never will be.
 
nunusguy said:
Now maybe Williams is a real football player and deserves to be ranked amoung the top 2 or 3 WRs, but a workout freak with outstanding athletic achievements he's not.
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Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Williams should have his ticket to the HOF stamped already. I'm simply stating that Williams is a great talent at WR, and he has outstanding potential. I think he'll be better than Keyshawn at the next level. I see him more as a Mushin Mohammed. He'll be a huge target in the red zone especially with so many NFL teams willing to throw it up and make their WR go up and grab it. He's not going to be AJ, Owens, or Moss, but he doesn't have to in order to be a very good NFL WR. There isn't always a AJ, Owens, or Moss in every draft. I really don't see any guys in this draft measuring up to success like those guys. It doesn't mean, however, that there won't be alot of great NFL WRs in this draft.
 
Grid said:
Yah :).. well.. put it this way.. I think Keyshawn SHOULD be a career #2. on a good team he WOULD be #2.. but hes on the cowboys and hes the best they got.

Mike Williams could be the #1 guy on a team like the Bears.. or the 49ers.. or the Jaguars. Or he could be a #1 on a power running team. But he is NOT a pro bowl quality receiver.. and never will be.
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Ehhh, this is where our opinions on Mike differ. Williams has absolute glue for hands. Hands dont go away over time, legs/speed do. As shown by one TO in the Super Bowl, a guy doesnt need his top end speed to change a game, his hands will do it.Williams also oozes agility and overall athleticism(hense the people thinking he'll go TE). Put AMAZING hands, GREAT agility and athleticism and GOOD speed together and you got a Pro Bowler, IMO. It doesnt hurt he's 6'5" either.

I am an absolute USC hater(Go Sooners :( ), but without a doubt in my mind, Williams is the best reciever in this draft.
 
Well you can look at all the 40's you want, but fact is Williams can catch the rock. Hines Ward is no burner, TO is doesn't have blazin speed, but these guys can catch. That's what a WR does. He doesn't sprint downfield every play for a long bomb. After watching some live coverage, I can see that the track stars shine at the 40 and plain ole football players are just average.
 
because you knew that Hines Ward and TO would be that good because of their combine????
 
no but Mike Williams is a guy that has gotten by on his physical talents(basicly.. his stature). put him in the NFL where he is only slightly larger than other WRs.. and he is going to struggle.

hes too slow.. bottom line. he isnt too slow to be a good WR.. hes too slow to be a superstar though. hes Tony Gonzalez :P.. and you are going to line him up with the defense's best CB and you expect him to be a playmaker?

he COULD prove me wrong and be the best WR ever to play the game.. but i doubt it. i wouldnt use a top ten pick on him personally. Probably not even top 20. If I was in need of a good WR to play alongside my existing pro bowl WR.. I may take him in the late first.
 
wow this guy drops from a top 10 pick last year to not even a 20 this year event though this draft doesn't seen to be better. OK.
 
Grid said:
no but Mike Williams is a guy that has gotten by on his physical talents(basicly.. his stature). put him in the NFL where he is only slightly larger than other WRs.. and he is going to struggle.

hes too slow.. bottom line. he isnt too slow to be a good WR.. hes too slow to be a superstar though. hes Tony Gonzalez :P.. and you are going to line him up with the defense's best CB and you expect him to be a playmaker?

he COULD prove me wrong and be the best WR ever to play the game.. but i doubt it. i wouldnt use a top ten pick on him personally. Probably not even top 20. If I was in need of a good WR to play alongside my existing pro bowl WR.. I may take him in the late first.
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Couple things...being 6'5" will put you into the upper 5% of WRs in the NFL. He has things other most 6'5" NFL WRs dont have, great hands. Line him up against most 5'10"-6'1" "best CBs" and I still say he makes plays. He can leap, he can catch and his skills after the catch are what will make him great.
 
you dont have to agree with me :).. in a couple years ill remind you that I was right though :).

as for his ability to grab jump balls.. for the most part... I dont think his size is going to make him "the man" in that department either. we are talking about a difference of a maybe a half a foot between Mike Williams hands.. and the CBs hands. That aint that big a difference.

Whatever. I think whoever drafts him is gonna get a great #2 receiver and that is about it. He could prove me wrong if he becomes like Hines Ward.. a multi-purpose WR.

as things are.. im not sold on him. (now watch us draft him at #13)


and SES.. he is projected as a top 10 this year too isnt he? whatever.. if he had been in the draft last year i would have been saying the same thing.. he aint worth a top 10 pick.
 
No doubt you could be right. WR is the biggest crapshoot in terms of the NFL draft. You'll notice most former high 1st rounders dont pan out(Rogers, Burress, B.Johnson, Terrell, FredEx, Warrick...man I could go on forever) and a lot of the top WRs are 2nd round or later picks...TO, MuMu, Horn, Ch. Johnson, Ward...
 
WildBlackBear32 said:
Couple things...being 6'5" will put you into the upper 5% of WRs in the NFL. He has things other most 6'5" NFL WRs dont have, great hands. Line him up against most 5'10"-6'1" "best CBs" and I still say he makes plays. He can leap, he can catch and his skills after the catch are what will make him great.
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As for those of you wondering about Mike Williams speed, since some say he is too slow and some dont seem to care how fast he is as long as he has some athletic ability he ran an unofficial 4.61 in the 40 yard dash.
 
People tend to overreact to 40 times during the combine. Jerry Rice ran a 4.6 a few years ago and he turned out OK.
 
On Williams behalf, there was a man named Anquan Boldin who ran a 4.63 at the combine just 2 years ago...some of yall value a 40 wayyyyyy too much
 
Boldin has a different mindset.. he likes to play physical and does it well. Williams may be the same way but I havent seen him show that attitude yet.

Also.. Boldin was injured last year so I didnt get to see him play with the 5 yard rule in effect.


And really its not just the 40 time. im not really all that impressed with a couple tenths of a second. I mean.. if someone beats me in a race by two tenths of a second.. it wouldnt really feel like he is alot faster than me.

Anywho.. something about him just rubs me the wrong way.. I just dont see him being successful.. its a gut feeling kinda thing. The 40 times are just justifying it.
 
Grid said:
And really its not just the 40 time. im not really all that impressed with a couple tenths of a second. I mean.. if someone beats me in a race by two tenths of a second.. it wouldnt really feel like he is alot faster than me.
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I feel the same way about the forty, i dont really see what 2 tenths of a second is going to make a difference of. I wouldn't care if a guy ran the forty in 7 sec. if he can go out and catch the ball against the top CB's in the leauge than does his speed really matter?
 
I like how people use the combine to give a FINAL grade on Rookies...only to eat crow when they do well in their rookie season....

All i'm saying is this...whoever gets Mike Williams will get themselves a nice WR...he could be a #1 in this league IMO.

If he plays in every game in 2005...he'll be my choice for ROY. Hopefully, the Texans get lucky and draft the guy.
 
Honestly I dont see how my saying "he isnt anything special" is any better or worse than you saying "he is something special" based on the same information :).

And id say we are BOTH setting ourselves up to eat crow.. only question is which one of us it will be.
 
ThaShark316 said:
I like how people use the combine to give a FINAL grade on Rookies...only to eat crow when they do well in their rookie season....

All i'm saying is this...whoever gets Mike Williams will get themselves a nice WR...he could be a #1 in this league IMO.

If he plays in every game in 2005...he'll be my choice for ROY. Hopefully, the Texans get lucky and draft the guy.
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We would have to get Williams in the 1st round if we took him. Personally, I think I would rather take Vincent Jackson later in the draft (probably in the 3rd). Jackson is bigger (6'5 240 lbs) and faster (40 in 4.50) and will be alot cheaper. If we want a speedster to replace Bradford, I think Jerome Mathis would be the best pick in the 2nd.
 
vtech9 said:
We would have to get Williams in the 1st round if we took him. Personally, I think I would rather take Vincent Jackson later in the draft (probably in the 3rd). Jackson is bigger (6'5 240 lbs) and faster (40 in 4.50) and will be alot cheaper. If we want a speedster to replace Bradford, I think Jerome Mathis would be the best pick in the 2nd.
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What do ya'll think of Troy Williamson, he's also got some speed.
 
Williamson is nice but we would have to take him at #13.

if he is the BPA then that is fine.. but the #2 WR is a minor need.. and we could do fine with a late first day pick if anything at all.
 
AndreJ said:
What do ya'll think of Troy Williamson, he's also got some speed.
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I like Williamson too, but I think he will be a late 1st round pick, so we would have to trade down because I think the 13th pick is too high for him.
 
Haven't seen it:
"It was good to see Mike out there running," Tennessee coach Jeff Fisher said. "It's great for the clubs to see so many guys running."

Williams ran two 4.59s, but was not among the five fastest receivers
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http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/3425202

Fastest QB was Matt Jones from Arkansas who ran a 4.41
Fastest WR was Jerome Mathis from Hampton in Virginia who ran a 4.32
 
aj. said:
People tend to overreact to 40 times during the combine. Jerry Rice ran a 4.6 a few years ago and he turned out OK.
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Oh come on now. Jerry Rice never went on to do anything. Pure madness.
 
Texans general manager Charley Casserly said he can’t remember a time when so many running backs and wide receivers worked out in Indianapolis. Even USC WR Mike Williams, who told Titans officials as late as last night that he was not going to work out, got into the act. Unofficially, Williams ran times of 4.61 and 4.59 in the 40-yard dash.
Casserly has long advocated that players work out both at the Combine in February and at collegiate pro days in March, saying that a bigger sample size of workout results can only help a prospect.

Referencing last year’s draft class, he cited the cases of DTs Tommie Harris, Vince Wilfork and Marcus Tubbs, all of whom were jockeying for position in the first round. Early on, some believed Tubbs would be drafted highest, Casserly said. None of the players worked out at the Combine, he recalled, electing to work out in March.

Harris performed the best of the group in the workouts. Wilfork didn’t fare as well, but did well enough. However, Tubbs could not finish his workout, and Casserly believes this pushed Harris and Wilfork ahead of Tubbs.

“All those guys are first-rounders. How do you separate them?” Casserly said. “Well, the way you separate them is you judge them athletically, judge their interview, you judge their workout. Let’s all use common sense here. If you have a guy who’s not in shape when you work them out, it’s awfully hard to think you’re going to spend a lot of money on them.”
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http://profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Scouting+Combine/2005/wilkieblog022405.htm

Nothing groundbreaking, but the last paragraph will obviously be even more important this year with no consensus standout players.
 
From the Profootballweekly.com website:
"Casserly has long advocated that players work out both at the Combine in February and at collegiate pro days in March, saying that a bigger sample size of workout results can only help a prospect."
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Cass uses good logic here and is giving prospects better advise than their agents probably do. However better advise might be this - do the combine
and if your performance is => expectations, quit when you're ahead. If you screw up, you've got your college pro day to fall back on. That way you don't
risk every thing on your college pro day performance (all of them follow the combine), and end up like the Tubbs, the Texas tackle, did last year.
 
They are doing D Line right now....



EDIT: Heath Miller isnt working out and may not get to work out before the draft because of hernia surgery, I dont think we want to go down that road again. :wacko:
 
Jonathan Welsh, Wisconsin, just ran a 4.58 (unoffically). And spent much of the offseason working on coverage drills. Intersted?
 
Damn, I hated it that Patterson the USC tackle scratched - been hearing more & more about him as maybe a Nose for us. Just wanted to get a look at him, could care less about his 40 time. After 5 yards, who care about the foot speed of a NT.
 
Yea I care more about the strength and those dummy drills than I do about a 40 for a DT.
 
nunusguy said:
Damn, I hated it that Patterson the USC tackle scratched - been hearing more & more about him as maybe a Nose for us. Just wanted to get a look at him, could care less about his 40 time. After 5 yards, who care about the foot speed of a NT.
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Another big thing about a NT is size. At only 6'0 he's hardly going to clog any running holes. He's definetly more suited for a 4-3.If your undersized AND slow, you got two things going against you.
 
Height isn't too big an issue when you play on the nose. Being 6' tall isn't a big issue here. Having a low center of gravity and a strong base is much more important. That said, most people I have talked to state that Patterson is a Warren Sapp like prospect that needs to be in a one-gap system using his quickness to shoot gaps instead of holding blockers off in a two-gap technique.
 
aj. said:
People tend to overreact to 40 times during the combine. Jerry Rice ran a 4.6 a few years ago and he turned out OK.
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I hear ya.. Largent could be added to the list

Let me ask yall this.. you take Mike Williams or Corey Bradford?

Speed versus Hands....I take Hands..

I haven't seen Mike play, another question is .. Does he know how to use his body/moves to get separation and get open?
 
I really don't think that this deserve it's own thread, but I thought I'd mention it to all those who get a kick out of Casserly taking a young QB late in the draft. It's a portion out of an ESPN article about all the QBs battling to be the 3rd QB taken, and how they're approaching the combine. ESPN

Scouts are anxious to see quarterback Jason Campbell of Auburn throw on Sunday. One of the more physically imposing quarterback prospects here, Campbell checked in at 6-feet-4¾ and 230 pounds, and just looks like an athlete. Campbell progressed very nicely in the past two years, really made strides in his senior season, and seemed to quickly pick up the offense at the Senior Bowl game. With an eye-opening workout on Sunday, he could perhaps squeeze into the first round, but the second stanza is more likely. "He's just a kid who carries himself really well," said Houston Texans offensive coordinator Chris Palmer. "There's a nice even keel to him, both as an athlete and a person. He isn't a guy who gets rattled."
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Wolf said:
I hear ya.. Largent could be added to the list

Let me ask yall this.. you take Mike Williams or Corey Bradford?

Speed versus Hands....I take Hands..

I haven't seen Mike play, another question is .. Does he know how to use his body/moves to get separation and get open?
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I made it a point to watch a couple of games his sophmore season, and the man knows how to use his body. He is big and physical and was a man among boys, he tossed aside the other DB's like they were nothing.
 
From the ESPN link:
"Shawne Merriman is a physical specimen who might be off the board in the top 10 picks now. Merriman measured 6-feet-4 and 272 pounds on Saturday and looked like his frame could handle another 10-15 pounds with no problem. He is certainly a "cut" player, a guy with a live-looking body"
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Unless Merriman's weight here is a typo, how did this guy get so big so fast ?
Everything I've seen on him up till now had him at the 245-250 range, now in just a couple month's he's 25 lbs bigger and from the way he described here he didn't get it at KFC.
 
It's hard to tell how serious the injury was, they never said anything about it; and they didn't show much of the LBs today. Could be minor. They spent most of the time with the DBs, skill postions gettting the love. I will say that he looked like an absolute beast during the little time I saw him.
 
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