Colts/Jaguars 9-13-2020

[theCATALYST]

Colts looking average at best as Jaguars run away with a win.

"Quarterback Gardner Minshew connected to Keelan Cole on a 22-yard touchdown pass for the go-ahead 24-20 score before holding on to secure an improbable 27-20 victory."

Colts fear Mack is lost for the year to an achilles tear.

"Mack played just 11 snaps, gaining 26 yards on four carries before exiting with the injury. He was carted to the locker room after making a three-yard catch during the second quarter."

 

[Arky]

This one was a shocker (to me, at least). Minshew was hot - 19/20, 173 yds, 3 TDs, 0 INTs. Rivers, OTOH, threw a couple of picks.

 

[ATXtexanfan]

Rivers will sink the colts

Mack injury didn't look good

 

[theCATALYST]

I find very little to be happy about concerning my very own Texans, but this upset by the Jaguars allowed me to smile for a good while.

 

[Mr teX]

But someone here told me Rivers wasn't a TO machine the other day in another thread....& like i told HIM, the Colts don't scare me at all. Mosied (sp?) over to the Colts messageboard & there seems to be a little bit of concern how their all-pro Quentin Nelson kinda got handled today...I believe the play Mack got hurt on, was due to Nelson getting blown up.

 

[Speedy]

I find very little to be happy about concerning my very own Texans, but this upset by the Jaguars allowed me to smile for a good while.

Until you realize we’re looking up at the Jaguars.

 

[thunderkyss]

But someone here told me Rivers wasn't a TO machine the other day in another thread....

I don't know if that was me. I did mention I like to watch him play. He's a hold over from a different game altogether.

Turnover machine or not, if he's got a good team (& the Colts have a good team) & good coaches (I haven't determined how good their coaches are) he can win some games.

 

[Mr teX]

I don't know if that was me. I did mention I like to watch him play. He's a hold over from a different game altogether.

Turnover machine or not, if he's got a good team (& the Colts have a good team) & good coaches (I haven't determined how good their coaches are) he can win some games.

Wasn't you T-skyss..it was 76T

 

[theCATALYST]

Wasn't you T-skyss..it was 76T

I remember that conversation. You both made good points, but I believe Rivers' better days are behind him.

 

[Lucky]

& the Colts have a good team

Are we certain about that? They have some good players. So do the Texans. Doesn't necessarily make them a good team.

 

[Mr teX]

Are we certain about that? They have some good players. So do the Texans. Doesn't necessarily make them a good team.

Exactly. This is the ultimate team game and 1-2 guys can’t dominate and steer the team to greatness like in Basketball and Baseball. Everyone has to be on the same page and be moving together for any level of success.

 

[thunderkyss]

Are we certain about that? They have some good players. So do the Texans. Doesn't necessarily make them a good team.

Well it changes things a bit without Marlon Mack, but I agree with your point

 

[76Texan]

Wasn't you T-skyss..it was 76T

IMO, you're being biased.
The first INT was a good play by the LCB.
He was in man coverage, but left his man and jumped the route.
It certainly looks to me that the receiver ran his route too deep.
They only need 10 yards for the first down, and he ran his out route nearly 15 yards deep.
Rivers was throwing the ball to the spot of the out route and the ball left his hand before the receiver made the break.

The second INT was another good play by the defensive player.
Rivers had 3 routes passing through his eyesight; he wasn't staring down a receiver.
The first was a shallow in route from the left.
The second was the crossing route that was intercepted.
The third one was a deeper route just outside the number.
The fourth route, up and in, actually ended up in the middle, not too far from his line of sight either.
If that route was changed to a seam route or a post route to hold off the safety, he wouldn't have dared leaving his area of responsibility to jump the shorter route.

Even after the two Ints, it took another "drop" by Hilton late in the fourth quarter (who couldn't hold on to the ball on the side line long enough to be ruled a catch), a misassignment by the offensive line forcing a hurried throw that was just long to Pascal (that could have been a TD easily with 49 seconds left), and yet another drop by Hilton that should have been a first down inside the Jaguars 20 yard line with 44 seconds left for the Colts to lose that game.

.......................

The Int in the last game was thrown right at the numbers of the TE MA Cox who couldn't hang onto the ball.
The announcer even said that he thought the defender climbed onto his back prematurely, bumping him from behind, and forcing him to cough up the ball.

 

[Mr teX]

IMO, you're being biased.
The first INT was a good play by the LCB.
He was in man coverage, but left his man and jumped the route.
It certainly looks to me that the receiver ran his route too deep.
They only need 10 yards for the first down, and he ran his out route nearly 15 yards deep.
Rivers was throwing the ball to the spot of the out route and the ball left his hand before the receiver made the break.

The second INT was another good play by the defensive player.
Rivers had 3 routes passing through his eyesight; he wasn't staring down a receiver.
The first was a shallow in route from the left.
The second was the crossing route that was intercepted.
The third one was a deeper route just outside the number.
The fourth route, up and in, actually ended up in the middle, not too far from his line of sight either.
If that route was changed to a seam route or a post route to hold off the safety, he wouldn't have dared leaving his area of responsibility to jump the shorter route.

Even after the two Ints, it took another "drop" by Hilton late in the fourth quarter (who couldn't hold on to the ball on the side line long enough to be ruled a catch), a misassignment by the offensive line forcing a hurried throw that was just long to Pascal (that could have been a TD easily with 49 seconds left), and yet another drop by Hilton that should have been a first down inside the Jaguars 20 yard line with 44 seconds left for the Colts to lose that game.

.......................

The Int in the last game was thrown right at the numbers of the TE MA Cox who couldn't hang onto the ball.
The announcer even said that he thought the defender climbed onto his back prematurely, bumping him from behind, and forcing him to cough up the ball.

Ok....if you say so..

 

[76Texan]

Ok....if you say so..

Reich took responsibility, at least for the first INT, but for a different reason.

Frank Reich takes blame for play-calling mistakes that hurt Philip Rivers, Jacoby Brissett

From Brissett's red-zone play to Rivers' first interception and the pass-run disparity, Reich found a lot of fault in himself as a play caller.

www.indystar.com

Rivers didn't need any excuse.
He has been playing for too long.

 

[Mr teX]

Reich took responsibility, at least for the first INT, but for a different reason.

Frank Reich takes blame for play-calling mistakes that hurt Philip Rivers, Jacoby Brissett

From Brissett's red-zone play to Rivers' first interception and the pass-run disparity, Reich found a lot of fault in himself as a play caller.

www.indystar.com

Rivers didn't need any excuse.
He has been playing for too long.

Keep throwing those excuses out for ol' phillip...3 ints in 2 games says it all for me...& just think, he hasn't even played a team worth a damn yet...

 

[76Texan]

Keep throwing those excuses out for ol' phillip...3 ints in 2 games says it all for me...& just think, he hasn't even played a team worth a damn yet...

I will. Even though I already know your agenda.

 

[Mr teX]

I will. Even though I already know your agenda.

My agenda? I'm not making excuses for another players bad play, that's you buddy.

 

[76Texan]

My agenda? I'm not making excuses for another players bad play, that's you buddy.

No, you have a knack of accusing players without proper ground.
You can't prove that Rivers was a turnover and a sack machine under pressure; you were just making it up even after I already debunked your myth a few times with things like these:

Philip Rivers is doing more than enough to enter the MVP conversation in 2018

Los Angeles Chargers quarterback Philip Rivers is in the running for MVP in 2018 after his strong start to the season.

www.pff.com

Los Angeles Chargers Daily Links: Philip Rivers is incredible under pressure

Your daily dose of Los Angeles Chargers news & notes from around the web.

www.boltsfromtheblue.com

(Grading was by PFF, not from the Bolts homies)

Philip Rivers led QBs in passing yards under pressure in 2019

Philip Rivers Still Has Enough Left In The Tank | Sharp Football

Philip Rivers is 39 years old, but there is still enough left in the tank for the Indianapolis Colts to contend in 2020.

www.sharpfootballanalysis.com

Film Study: Analyzing Philip Rivers' 20 INTs to Discern Tendencies

The Indianapolis Colts are convinced they can get elite play from 38-year-old quarterback Philip Rivers. After watching his 20 interceptions with the L.A. Chargers, there’s no question a bounce-back season starts with reigning in the veteran passer’s gunslinging mentality.

www.si.com

While the 2019 season was subpar for him, it was by no mean bad; he was still above average despite having to carry the team.

Chargers' Philip Rivers had lowest sack total under pressure in 2017

Chargers quarterback Philip Rivers may not be the most mobile quarterback in the NFL. But he has proven to be the absolute master at not taking sacks when faced with pressure in recent years, even …

chargerswire.usatoday.com

Quarterbacks and Pressure 2018

Patrick Mahomes was the best quarterback under pressure in 2018. He was also the best quarterback without pressure, becoming the first quarterback on record to lead the league in both categories in the same year.

www.footballoutsiders.com

The NFL's best quarterbacks under pressure

Senior Analyst Sam Monson counts down the top 5 NFL quarterbacks under pressure according to PFF grades heading into Week 13.

www.pff.com

Deshaun Watson is on this list, not Rivers

Ranking the NFL quarterbacks most affected by pressure in 2019

New York Jets quarterback Sam Darnold tops the list of signal-callers who were most affected by pressure in the 2019 NFL season.

www.pff.com

His career sack percentage (per pass attempts) of 5.5% is way better than a mobile QB like Wilson (8.4)
Last year it was 5.4% and this year a mere 2.7%.

Philip Rivers Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Philip Rivers. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

Much better than Watson at 9.5% career mark and 10.5% for this year.

Deshaun Watson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Deshaun Watson. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

 

[Mr teX]

No, you have a knack of accusing players without proper ground.
You can't prove that Rivers was a turnover and a sack machine under pressure; you were just making it up even after I already debunked your myth a few times with things like these:

Philip Rivers is doing more than enough to enter the MVP conversation in 2018

Los Angeles Chargers quarterback Philip Rivers is in the running for MVP in 2018 after his strong start to the season.

www.pff.com

Los Angeles Chargers Daily Links: Philip Rivers is incredible under pressure

Your daily dose of Los Angeles Chargers news & notes from around the web.

www.boltsfromtheblue.com

(Grading was by PFF, not from the Bolts homies)

Philip Rivers led QBs in passing yards under pressure in 2019

Philip Rivers Still Has Enough Left In The Tank | Sharp Football

Philip Rivers is 39 years old, but there is still enough left in the tank for the Indianapolis Colts to contend in 2020.

www.sharpfootballanalysis.com

Film Study: Analyzing Philip Rivers' 20 INTs to Discern Tendencies

The Indianapolis Colts are convinced they can get elite play from 38-year-old quarterback Philip Rivers. After watching his 20 interceptions with the L.A. Chargers, there’s no question a bounce-back season starts with reigning in the veteran passer’s gunslinging mentality.

www.si.com

While the 2019 season was subpar for him, it was by no mean bad; he was still above average despite having to carry the team.

Chargers' Philip Rivers had lowest sack total under pressure in 2017

Chargers quarterback Philip Rivers may not be the most mobile quarterback in the NFL. But he has proven to be the absolute master at not taking sacks when faced with pressure in recent years, even …

chargerswire.usatoday.com

Quarterbacks and Pressure 2018

Patrick Mahomes was the best quarterback under pressure in 2018. He was also the best quarterback without pressure, becoming the first quarterback on record to lead the league in both categories in the same year.

www.footballoutsiders.com

The NFL's best quarterbacks under pressure

Senior Analyst Sam Monson counts down the top 5 NFL quarterbacks under pressure according to PFF grades heading into Week 13.

www.pff.com

Deshaun Watson is on this list, not Rivers

Ranking the NFL quarterbacks most affected by pressure in 2019

New York Jets quarterback Sam Darnold tops the list of signal-callers who were most affected by pressure in the 2019 NFL season.

www.pff.com

His career sack percentage (per pass attempts) of 5.5% is way better than a mobile QB like Wilson (8.4)
Last year it was 5.4% and this year a mere 2.7%.

Philip Rivers Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Philip Rivers. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

Much better than Watson at 9.5% career mark and 10.5% for this year.

Deshaun Watson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Deshaun Watson. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

What I actually said over the course of 2-3 posts is that he’s a TO machine..and pressure doesn’t help him at all MAINLY b/c he’s a statue and b/c he’s way too aggressive at times..ESPECIALLY in crunch time; and the raw, end game numbers bear that out considering he’s had not 1....not 2 ....but 3 seasons he’s thrown 20 or more ints...and 1 other season barely under that with 18.

Aside from that, he's had multiple seasons where he's fumbled the ball 10 or more times. To put that into perspective, Jameis Winston just had 1 of those seasons where he crossed that threshold and he was released by TB. The only other guy that i can think of that's anywhere close to Rivers in terms of those kind of abysmal TO & ball security numbers......... that is/was considered a halfway decent Qb once upon a time is his fellow draft mate, Eli Manning....But even then, Eli never had a season where he fumbled it 15 times in a damn season though and he has a SB pedigree. What's Rivers got besides world class smack talk?

I mean for gods sake his career high for rushing attempts in a season is 48. His career high for yardage in a season is 102 yds. So how in the hell do you fumble the ball that many damn times when you're not really running anywhere most of the times?........... Strip sacks!!!!

Unlike you, I don't sit up with a biased eye looking for excuses for why a guy didn't play well and I don't feel the need to watch every snap he's ever taken for "evidence" to validate my opinion b/c I've seen him play enough & my "evidence" is right there in plain sight with his unmanipulated seasonal numbers. So for every cherry picked article you can pull that will highlight his good play at a SPECIFIC POINT IN TIME when he was enjoying success to make your argument, i can always fall back on his overall numbers which ultimately show him regressing back to his mean.

This year he's already started out like he has played his whole career.

You didn't debunk ****. All you've done is proven that you can't formulate your own opinion without validation from someone else's opinion.

Good day sir.

 

[76Texan]

What I actually said over the course of 2-3 posts is that he’s a TO machine..and pressure doesn’t help him at all MAINLY b/c he’s a statue and b/c he’s way too aggressive at times..ESPECIALLY in crunch time; and the raw, end game numbers bear that out considering he’s had not 1....not 2 ....but 3 seasons he’s thrown 20 or more ints...and 1 other season barely under that with 18.

Aside from that, he's had multiple seasons where he's fumbled the ball 10 or more times. To put that into perspective, Jameis Winston just had 1 of those seasons where he crossed that threshold and he was released by TB. The only other guy that i can think of that's anywhere close to Rivers in terms of those kind of abysmal TO & ball security numbers......... that is/was considered a halfway decent Qb once upon a time is his fellow draft mate, Eli Manning....But even then, Eli never had a season where he fumbled it 15 times in a damn season though and he has a SB pedigree. What's Rivers got besides world class smack talk?

I mean for gods sake his career high for rushing attempts in a season is 48. His career high for yardage in a season is 102 yds. So how in the hell do you fumble the ball that many damn times when you're not really running anywhere most of the times?........... Strip sacks!!!!

Unlike you, I don't sit up with a biased eye looking for excuses for why a guy didn't play well and I don't feel the need to watch every snap he's ever taken for "evidence" to validate my opinion b/c I've seen him play enough & my "evidence" is right there in plain sight with his unmanipulated seasonal numbers. So for every cherry picked article you can pull that will highlight his good play at a SPECIFIC POINT IN TIME when he was enjoying success to make your argument, i can always fall back on his overall numbers which ultimately show him regressing back to his mean.

This year he's already started out like he has played his whole career.

You didn't debunk ****. All you've done is proven that you can't formulate your own opinion without validation from someone else's opinion.

Good day sir.

No, you only prove that you can use numbers and that is all, just like 2-14 same way steelb does.

You don't bother watch each fumble and Int to see why it happens.
You said you do, but you don't take into account how many passing attempts he had.
The more you throw the ball, the more you go for the big play, the more the chance for an Int.
It's that simple.

The same thing applies to Watson.

 

[76Texan]

What I actually said over the course of 2-3 posts is that he’s a TO machine..and pressure doesn’t help him at all MAINLY b/c he’s a statue and b/c he’s way too aggressive at times..ESPECIALLY in crunch time; and the raw, end game numbers bear that out considering he’s had not 1....not 2 ....but 3 seasons he’s thrown 20 or more ints...and 1 other season barely under that with 18.

Aside from that, he's had multiple seasons where he's fumbled the ball 10 or more times. To put that into perspective, Jameis Winston just had 1 of those seasons where he crossed that threshold and he was released by TB. The only other guy that i can think of that's anywhere close to Rivers in terms of those kind of abysmal TO & ball security numbers......... that is/was considered a halfway decent Qb once upon a time is his fellow draft mate, Eli Manning....But even then, Eli never had a season where he fumbled it 15 times in a damn season though and he has a SB pedigree. What's Rivers got besides world class smack talk?

I mean for gods sake his career high for rushing attempts in a season is 48. His career high for yardage in a season is 102 yds. So how in the hell do you fumble the ball that many damn times when you're not really running anywhere most of the times?........... Strip sacks!!!!

Unlike you, I don't sit up with a biased eye looking for excuses for why a guy didn't play well and I don't feel the need to watch every snap he's ever taken for "evidence" to validate my opinion b/c I've seen him play enough & my "evidence" is right there in plain sight with his unmanipulated seasonal numbers. So for every cherry picked article you can pull that will highlight his good play at a SPECIFIC POINT IN TIME when he was enjoying success to make your argument, i can always fall back on his overall numbers which ultimately show him regressing back to his mean.

This year he's already started out like he has played his whole career.

You didn't debunk ****. All you've done is proven that you can't formulate your own opinion without validation from someone else's opinion.

Good day sir.

Like this fumble: For some reason, the ball was snapped lower than where Rivers hands were.

But you don't care.
Your stand is that he fumbled the ball.

 

[76Texan]

Or like this play, where pressure came from both the front where he couldn't step up,
and from the side when he was in throwing motion.

How the heck does a QB avoid that.
And Rivers is known to have a compact delivery, not like Osweiler or Mallett.

 

[Mr teX]

No, you only prove that you can use numbers and that is all, just like 2-14 same way steelb does.

You don't bother watch each fumble and Int to see why it happens.
You said you do, but you don't take into account how many passing attempts he had.
The more you throw the ball, the more you go for the big play, the more the chance for an Int.
It's that simple.

The same thing applies to Watson.

You sound like Brock Osweiler..."each int has its own story..."

Nothing wrong with analyzing each and every snap, just don't get lost in the trees because there's a whole forest that tells the bigger story. & it seems this is what you do. Just b/c you watch each & every int/fumble doesn't mean that those fumbles & ints didn't happen lol. Furthermore, if you're not careful, you tend to become biased depending on your leanings & it seems to me this is EXACTLY what you tend do....which is make excuses for said player if you like them. "well, the reason why this happened is b/c this happened with this player....or this call was bad..".Well the problem with that is you can come up with an excuse for almost every player in every situation......

Example: If we'd have drafted better expansion lineman, David Carr would've had a better o-line & maybe he would've turned out to be an ok qb for us....Bad GMing by Casserly!

If the Bills offense had the ball on the right hash instead of the left, Scott Norwood's kick probably doesn't miss wide right & The Bills would have won at least 1 SB..........Shame on you Jim Kelly!

if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle...Bad DNA!

As for the rest of what you're saying, You're appealing to the exception & it has no practical implications within the context of the normal distribution ranges of TO's for Qbs. IOW's, unless Rivers was throwing the ball inordinately way more than every qb in the league was (talking 700 or more attempts a season), your premise, while true in extreme cases, has no merit in his case, except maybe 1 season of his where he threw it 661 times.

 

[Mr teX]

Like this fumble: For some reason, the ball was snapped lower than where Rivers hands were.

But you don't care.
Your stand is that he fumbled the ball.

B/c it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of it all. The qb is ultimately held responsible for the qb/center exchange.

 

[Mr teX]

Or like this play, where pressure came from both the front where he couldn't step up,
and from the side when he was in throwing motion.

How the heck does a QB avoid that.
And Rivers is known to have a compact delivery, not like Osweiler or Mallett.

Easy, don't throw it, eat it. He had enough time......to get it to someone. He thought he had enough room but he didn't.

 

[76Texan]

I do not disregard some of your points; you're just taking them to the extreme many times such that I had to counter them with examples.

Even things like you can't win without a "franchised" QB.
I mean, it's obvious you don't know that there are many more so-called "non-franchised" QB like Rivers (in your definition) and worse that had won the SB than the so-called "franchised" QBs.

 

[76Texan]

Easy, don't throw it, eat it. He had enough time......to get it to someone. He thought he had enough room but he didn't.

He was already in his throwing motion.

 

[Mr teX]

He was already in his throwing motion.

So?

 

[76Texan]

Your post 978 in the Ravens thread applies to Rivers just as it applies to Watson.

 

[76Texan]

So?

Rivers was in a worse position than Watson with Fells getting punked by Mathieu in that he didn't see the rusher at all while Watson was able to have a glimpse of the rush coming.

 

[Mr teX]

Rivers was in a worse position than Watson with Fells getting punked by Mathieu in that he didn't see the rusher at all while Watson was able to have a glimpse of the rush coming.

BS. As a qb, you see the “get off” those edge guys get out of the corner of your eye when the ball is snapped. In addition to this the rusher came front side..so he saw SOMETHING.

Like, DW4, At a minimum the clock should’ve gone off in his head to either get rid of it faster, eat it or move.

Not necessarily a “bad” strip sack, but a sack nonetheless.

 

[76Texan]

BS. As a qb, you see the “get off” those edge guys get out of the corner of your eye when the ball is snapped. In addition to this the rusher came front side..so he saw SOMETHING.

Like, DW4, At a minimum the clock should’ve gone off in his head to either get rid of it faster, eat it or move.

Not necessarily a “bad” strip sack, but a sack nonetheless.

Maybe.
And there's also the "risk assessing" on the part of the QB. Some guys like Favre are just wired to take more risk, and Rivers to a lesser extent.
Watson himself wasn't shy in college.

They believe they can move the ball. As long as they can score more points than the other team at the end, win the game. INT be damm.