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Clowney, then what?

In college where you play against future lawyers,barbers,and bartenders, id imagine you could produce at an average level. We've never had a guy rated so high with such a piss poor last yr. That doesn't bother anyone but me?

Your assumption is that guys don't have bad last years and get rated highly. That assumption isn't true.

Unfortunately, it's hard to find college stats on people more than a few years back. BUT... Willie McGinest had the same drop off in his last year of college football... and ended up with only 3-4 sacks his last year, as well. He was drafted 4th overall and turned in a pretty good career although he was NOT a sack-master per se.

There are other guys who also had drop-offs in their last year of college and went on to do well.

When you look at the amount of attention that college offenses paid to Clowney, they did double-team, chip, and scheme against him almost double what they do with your normal very good defensive lineman so that entered into his sack totals. (Teams did not do that to him every down, however.)

His lack of production definitely isn't a great sign, it's not the end-all, be-all either.
 
Unfortunately, it's hard to find college stats on people more than a few years back. BUT... Willie McGinest had the same drop off in his last year of college football... and ended up with only 3-4 sacks his last year, as well. He was drafted 4th overall and turned in a pretty good career although he was NOT a sack-master per se.

6 his senior year which was not down across the board because he had something like 11 batted balls and 13 TFL and some FF as well.

There are other guys who also had drop-offs in their last year of college and went on to do well.

A drop off doesn't mean all drop offs are created equal.
 
"When you’re triple teamed a lot it’s hard to make plays. Once he gets to the NFL people will see the real Jadaveon Clowney."
 
Talk on 790 that TB could fall out of the 1st round. Clowney followed by TB at 2.1 would have sounded like an impossibly good haul a month ago. Sounds like a distinct possibility now and to my mind would be potentially amazing.
That would be a amazing haul. We can dream, can't we?
 
Talk on 790 that TB could fall out of the 1st round. Clowney followed by TB at 2.1 would have sounded like an impossibly good haul a month ago. Sounds like a distinct possibility now and to my mind would be potentially amazing.


This would be amazing....

Too much weight on post season simulated situations IMO.
 
ESPN: How Clowney will fit Houston's D
...
Clowney has the requisite traits -- power, explosiveness, quickness, length, agility, ability bend, torque and fluidity -- to play in any scheme, as ESPN NFL analyst Tedy Bruschi, who won multiple Super Bowls with Crennel as his coordinator, said following Clowney's pro day. The question going into that workout was whether Clowney, a college end, could handle the responsibilities of an outside linebacker, including playing out of a two-point stance and dropping into pass coverage.

"He looked good. He looked fluid," Bruschi said during a recent appearance on "The Herd" with Colin Cowherd. "His hips were flipping right to left, breaking back up on the ball, no wasted movement towards the bottom of his break when he put the anchor in the ground."

Clowney showed a good ability to redirect as well.

"This kid can play outside linebacker in a 3-4 if the Houston Texans decide to play mainly a 3-4 set," Bruschi said.

And not only would Clowney fit with what they do defensively, he'd have the chance to excel. Here's why.

Three-man-front principles
The focal point of Crennel's defense is identifying opposing personnel and tailoring his calls accordingly (we frequently hear of game-plan offenses, but game-plan defenses are the norm in the NFL, too). When an opposing offense trots out its "regular" personnel -- consisting of two running backs and a single tight end -- Crennel counters with his three-man defensive fronts.

More generally speaking, in running situations, Crennel relies on his base defense. One comparison that has been drawn for Clowney is current Kansas City Chiefs outside linebacker Tamba Hali, who some questioned whether he'd fit in Crennel's system when he took over the Kansas City defense in 2010.

Hali played what Crennel referred to as the "Jack" linebacker, aligning away from the strong side of the formation a yard or so off the ball in a two-point stance.

His duties, as described by a former Crennel assistant now coaching with another NFL team, entail: "Against the run, it's about setting the edge. He can't let the ball bounce outside. In coverage -- which he hardly was called up to do -- he had to control the flat. In the pass rush, Crennel is going to try to create one-on-one opportunities for the Jack."

"He'll do that by running two-man rush games with the interior tackles in order to influence a guard aligned to the Jack's side and prevent him from fanning out," the assistant continued. "If he can't create one-on-one rush situations, he'll find ways to create mismatches -- make the running back have to pick him up on occasion, for example."

"He can also flip the Jack from side to side based on the offensive personnel. Anything to create an edge, a boost," he added.

Clowney would not simply be cut free to rush the passer or press upfield in Crennel's system on every down (but, more importantly, he would not be relied upon as an everyday coverage player). Setting the edge is critical to the defense's success, requiring the outside force players to lock out, control the tackle or tight end blocking them and turn everything back inside.

"He does have explosiveness off the ball. He has great leverage and can set the vertical edge," the assistant coach noted. "He can make that ball bounce inside on the run and also be a press bull-rusher."

It just so happens that Houston now employs one of the most reliable edge-setters that Crennel has coached in Mike Vrabel, a former New England Patriot and Chief who is the team's linebackers coach. He and defensive line coach Bill Kollar represent an ideal duo to tutor Clowney and help refine his game.

Sub defense principles
In passing situations, which are ever increasing in today's NFL, Crennel will turn to four-man defensive fronts, at which point Clowney would revert to his familiar setting of playing from a three-point stance.

As Bruschi alluded to in the aforementioned interview, an NFL defense might play sub defense on more than 60 percent of its snaps. As a matter of fact, during my time with the Chiefs in a 2010 matchup against Peyton Manning and the Indianapolis Colts, we turned to what we called our "Penny" personnel for all but a handful of snaps during that game.

The defensive front featured two linemen, two outside linebackers, a single inside linebacker and six defensive backs.

During the prolonged Patriots-Colts rivalry of the 2000s, which Crennel was involved with for many years, it wasn't uncommon for New England to rely on comparable packages utilizing six defensive backs.

Just as Hali was often able to tap into his defensive end experience, Clowney would do much of the same in Houston.

With a higher ceiling of performance.

"Clowney is an exceedingly better athlete ... not even close," one NFL scout said. "Way better equipped to play in space [and has] more versatile rush tools. Tamba is far more skilled [counter setup, hand use] and plays with a way better motor. All that said, Romeo conceivably could do a lot more with Clowney."

Wrapping it up
Despite his numerous assets, a case can be made against drafting Clowney No. 1. It just has to be for particular reasons.
...
But one case that shouldn't be presented in passing on Clowney is that he doesn't fit what the Texans will do defensively in 2014 and beyond.
 

That story was written by a guy named Field Yates.
Field Yates has previous experience interning with the New England Patriots on both their coaching and scouting staffs. A graduate of Wesleyan University (CT), he is a regular contributor to ESPN Boston's Patriots coverage and ESPN Insider.

So he might (might) know something about what Crennel is looking for.
 
If the Texans draft a non-QB position with their 1.1 it's most likely gonna be an edge rusher, and given the great investment and high expectations of drafting the #1 overall in any NFL draft, I would hope that the ownership emphasizes the importance of selecting the top talent over a lesser talent who might be more compatible to the current HC's scheme. McNair should know better than anybody that this years top pick may be around longer than the coaching staff.
 
That story was written by a guy named Field Yates.

So he might (might) know something about what Crennel is looking for.

He interned (volunteered) while in college after Crennel left. Which doesn't mean he knows nothing but it isn't Crennel in particular.

He also worked for KC while Pioli was there - one season as an in house scout and a second as Haley's personal (not personnel) assistant.
 
One thing I've been told in recent weeks is how impressed teams are with Clowney as a person. He's come across as funny, playful and genuinely likeable. So all that talk about his questionable character isn't playing out in visits with teams.


James Palmer ‏@JPalmerCSN
Johnny Manziel and Jadeveon Clowney are meeting the the Texans today. teams have till the 27th to finish all their visits.
 
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James Palmer ‏@JPalmerCSN
One thing I've been told in recent weeks is how impressed teams are with Clowney as a person. He's come across as funny, playful and genuinely likeable. So all that talk about his questionable character isn't playing out in visits with teams.

I keep hearing the same things about Manziel. Then again, is this like the blind date setup "she has a great personality"? :kitten:
 
And the haterade begins on queue...

Josh Norris ‏@JoshNorris
Trucked? RT @evansilva: Merrill Hoge called Clowney's fundamentals "atrocious." "Not a very good football player .. Gets controlled & trucked a lot"
Matt Miller ‏@nfldraftscout
Merrill Hoge calls Jadeveon Clowney an atrocious football player. In related news, day drinking is a thing at ESPN.
Mike Loyko ‏@NEPD_Loyko
To paraphrase and alter a statement from former Colts GM Bill Tobin "who in the hell is Merrill Hoge, anyway?"

@evansilva It's about this time every year, Merrill tries to make himself relevant again.
SI_DougFarrar ‏@SI_DougFarrar
Maybe his tie is tied too tight? RT @nfldraftscout Merril Hoge calls Jadeveon Clowney an atrocious football player.
 
I'm glad others are calling Hodge out.

To no effect. Nolan Nawrocki has been called out for his hatchet jobs for years now, but he continues. ESPN wants headlines. Hoge makes headlines.

No matter. Decision makers don't listen to the Hoge/Bayless types. Prospects just need to keep their heads down and move on.
 
Schefter and Mort are the only 2 espn heads I will listen to when they talk/tweet. Other than them, espn's good for highlights and games. Anything else is BS, including all their ridiculous shows.
 
Schefter and Mort are the only 2 espn heads I will listen to...

Speaking of...

Evan Silva ‏@evansilva
Should clarify that Schefter said he doesn't necessarily expect those 4 to go in that order. But expects some combination of them in Top 4.

ESPN's Adam Schefter said he expects Jadeveon Clowney, Greg Robinson, Khalil Mack, and Sammy Watkins to be the first 4 picks in the draft.
 
"Right now, today, he's a damn-good NFL player, no matter what," a veteran NFC personnel executive said. "The kid could've started in the NFL his freshman year, the way he played. It's not that he doesn't have good tape. And if you hit on him, he's Reggie White. His God-given talent is better than 99 percent of the NFL. ... He's gonna be 275 to 285 pounds, and he moves like he's 250. If you hit on him, he changes the game."
"What are you buying?" another NFC personnel exec said. "I'm not sure. He can be a big-time player, but is he gonna be? The wiring, the motor, the questions about shutting it down -- it's really scary. It's boom or bust. I don't know how important football is to him."
Trevor Moawad worked with Clowney for eight weeks before the 2014 NFL Scouting Combine, and then four days leading up to his pro day in South Carolina, so admittedly, his sample size is limited. What he saw, though, was a kid he believes has the drive to be great.

Proof? He'll point you to the 40-yard dash that Clowney ran in Indianapolis. And it's not the freakish 4.53 time that Moawad wants to highlight. It's the form he exhibited -- "He looked like Usain Bolt" -- that, to the trainer, served as proof positive of a player committed to being the very best.

"I'd heard the same things everyone else did -- that the kid was all aptitude," said Moawad, vice president of pro and elite sports at EXOS (formerly known as Athletes Performance). "And that's not what I saw."

Moawad continued, "If you believe in your ability as a head coach and your ability as a coaching staff, you'll have no problem taking the kid. I felt the effort we got from him for his combine preparation was 100 percent."

At EXOS, Clowney's path to greatness has been broken down into three parts.

Aptitude comes first, and Clowney has that in spades. His straight-ahead speed is proven, and Moawad said what was really eye-popping was seeing "the lateral agility of a second baseman."

Second is knowledge and education. That part will come down to Clowney's ability to stay in his playbook, and digest what he's being taught and apply it on the field. If the job he did in honing his track form before the combine is any indication, Clowney certainly has the athletic intelligence to get that done.

Third comes a player's desire to be great. And that's where the environment he's about to enter becomes key.

"I think being dominant is important to him," Moawad said. "He's always been at the top, he expects to be there at the next level. He'll recognize quickly -- when he gets around players that are much better than they were, even in the SEC -- what it takes to be great at that level. He hasn't always had to work as hard to be better than everyone else. Maybe he didn't maximize his ability at times (last) year, but he was still that much better than anyone else. That's the duality of it. He gets to the NFL, that'll change."
"It's pretty incredible that, as good as he is, he's even more raw," an NFC personnel director said. "He's in a situation where he'll get NFL coaching, and a chance to be really special. All that production, and it's basically off natural ability. ... He has the one arm-over pass-rush move -- he doesn't have an effective counter, he hasn't learned to transition speed to power in his pass rush -- and he was still very productive in the SEC against NFL-caliber offensive tackles."
"You wanna find out if he wants to be great," an AFC personnel executive said. "There's a difference between good and great. He can be good on that talent, and you want to find out if he can live on being good. It takes a unique individual to be great. You gotta buy into everything that goes with being a pro -- the work ethic, the preparation. There are things you gotta do. Some guys are OK doing just enough."

And with the truly great athletes, the AFC exec continued, environment looms large: "It's your culture, your football culture. What's the room like? Who's in there who can mentor him? What leadership is present in the building? Who can take him to the next level? That's what you're asking."
"The comparison you'd make is he's a Peppers type," the AFC exec said. "Julius Peppers, you would probably say, had a good professional career, but you'd hesitate to say great. If that's the floor, then I think you're OK. And the ceiling is high for this kid. People aren't sure what you're getting long term because of the discrepancy between his sophomore and junior years. But all the physical traits you look for in a defensive end or outside linebacker are there. ... Athletically, he's rare."
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/0ap2...owney-phenom-or-question-mark-nfl-execs-split
 
An NFC executive told NFL Media reporter Albert Breer that the questions surrounding South Carolina DE Jadeveon Clowney are "really scary."

http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/...ly-safe?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

let's show the entire quote, texian...not just your little twist to it.

"What are you buying?" the NFC personnel exec told Breer. "I'm not sure. He can be a big-time player, but is he gonna be? The wiring, the motor, the questions about shutting it down -- it's really scary. It's boom or bust. I don't know how important football is to him." A different NFC executive interviewed for the same story doesn't have as many concerns about the 6-foot-6, 266-pound freak who can run a 4.53 40-yard dash. "Right now, today, he's a damn-good NFL player, no matter what," a different NFC executive told Breer. "The kid could've started in the NFL his freshman year, the way he played. It's not that he doesn't have good tape. And if you hit on him, he's Reggie White. His God-given talent is better than 99 percent of the NFL. ... He's gonna be 275 to 285 pounds, and he moves like he's 250. If you hit on him, he changes the game.
 
let's show the entire quote, texian...not just your little twist to it.

That's why I provided the link Trap Star. If I was trying to be underhanded a link would NOT have been provided. Surely you're smart enough to understand that Trap Star.
 
88FBB5FA92C94D0E9B19750B374B10C7.ashx


The draft is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get until you bite.
And then, its too late.
 
let's learn from the past

- drafting a QB 1st overall didn't work out

- trading for a backup QB didn't work out

- drafting a QB in the 5th round didn't work out

- signing an undrafted free agent QB didn't work out


we are left with drafting in the 1st round (not 1st overall) or 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 6th or 7th or with the "Mr. Irrelevant" pick

Or we could sign a starter freeagent (see denver/manning), or we could trade for a starter (KC/Smith) or we could sign a backup freeagent.


so this would mean no QB at 1.1 and no mallet :)

let's see what happens
 
Quotes from an article on nfl.com by Chase Goodbread


Gamecocks defensive coordinator Lorenzo Ward chose to passionately defend Clowney's work ethic.

"I never had an issue with him. If anything, you had to slow him down," Ward said, according to espn.com. "There were days that Coach [Steve] Spurrier would have to tell us to take him off the field or they weren't going to get anything accomplished on offense. And that's the truth because they couldn't get a pass off on him."

Ward, however, was around Clowney on a daily basis for three seasons, and saw none of the effort issues that Clowney is for which the star pass rusher is reputed.
 
Quotes from an article on nfl.com by Chase Goodbread


Gamecocks defensive coordinator Lorenzo Ward chose to passionately defend Clowney's work ethic.

"I never had an issue with him. If anything, you had to slow him down," Ward said, according to espn.com. "There were days that Coach [Steve] Spurrier would have to tell us to take him off the field or they weren't going to get anything accomplished on offense. And that's the truth because they couldn't get a pass off on him."

Ward, however, was around Clowney on a daily basis for three seasons, and saw none of the effort issues that Clowney is for which the star pass rusher is reputed.

This addresses my concerns and, if true, would make him my choice easily. You just don't know how much stock to put into it.
 
This addresses my concerns and, if true, would make him my choice easily. You just don't know how much stock to put into it.

We had something similar with Sam Montgomery last year. There was that report that the S&C coach had put up a sign about guys -- including Sam Montgomery -- slacking off and skipping training sessions. That caused people to question Montgomery's work ethic. But then the S&C coach came out and said that it wasn't a big deal, that Sam was a hard worker, that he'd just put up that sign because they'd accidentally missed a workout, no biggie.

But it was a biggie and Montgomery apparently did have issues and shouldn't have been drafted.

I know every case is different and you've got to do your due diligence and check all these guys out, but after a couple of low motor guys not panning out, I'm a little gun-shy.
 
We had something similar with Sam Montgomery last year. There was that report that the S&C coach had put up a sign about guys -- including Sam Montgomery -- slacking off and skipping training sessions. That caused people to question Montgomery's work ethic. But then the S&C coach came out and said that it wasn't a big deal, that Sam was a hard worker, that he'd just put up that sign because they'd accidentally missed a workout, no biggie.

But it was a biggie and Montgomery apparently did have issues and shouldn't have been drafted.

I know every case is different and you've got to do your due diligence and check all these guys out, but after a couple of low motor guys not panning out, I'm a little gun-shy.

That's why the in season Spurrier stuff carries more weight with me. In season, it's easier to get an idea of what's going on from a team dynamics standpoint, although it's still not easy. After the season, coaches are simply trying to sell their guys because part of their recruiting pitch is to get guys drafted higher than their rivals. It wouldn't be smart for a coach to bad mouth a player after the season, and also be telling recruits that he gives them the best chance of being drafted high.
 
This addresses my concerns and, if true, would make him my choice easily. You just don't know how much stock to put into it.

When you watched Clowney in game situations, you saw him taking plays off, but if his athletic trainer for three years tells you what you saw wasn't what you thought you saw... You're ready to take him with the #1 overall?

Please explain.
 
That's why the in season Spurrier stuff carries more weight with me. In season, it's easier to get an idea of what's going on from a team dynamics standpoint, although it's still not easy. After the season, coaches are simply trying to sell their guys because part of their recruiting pitch is to get guys drafted higher than their rivals. It wouldn't be smart for a coach to bad mouth a player after the season, and also be telling recruits that he gives them the best chance of being drafted high.

Help me out here. The in season Spurrier stuff?
 
When you watched Clowney in game situations, you saw him taking plays off, but if his athletic trainer for three years tells you what you saw wasn't what you thought you saw... You're ready to take him with the #1 overall?

Please explain.

Is that a rhetorical question?
 
The bullisht flowing both ways, too hate/too love...

"If Clowney were in the 2012 Draft, he'd still be the #1 pick." -- Ed Werder on ESPN Insiders reports what one Senior Personnel Director said about Andrew Luck's draft class.



.
 
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Help me out here. The in season Spurrier stuff?

During the season, Clowney said he was injured and decided to sit out a game. Spurrier called him out... and Victor Hampton, iirc... and said he needed to step up. The question is whether that was just a motivational tactic or if Spurrier really felt like Clowney wasn't committed to playing football. That, along with Clowney coming into the season out of shape, is one of the main sources for why people started looking at his motivation and questioning his motor.
 
Help me out here. The in season Spurrier stuff?

During the season, Clowney said he was injured and decided to sit out a game. Spurrier called him out... and Victor Hampton, iirc... and said he needed to step up. The question is whether that was just a motivational tactic or if Spurrier really felt like Clowney wasn't committed to playing football. That, along with Clowney coming into the season out of shape, is one of the main sources for why people started looking at his motivation and questioning his motor.

This.

When you watched Clowney in game situations, you saw him taking plays off, but if his athletic trainer for three years tells you what you saw wasn't what you thought you saw... You're ready to take him with the #1 overall?

Please explain.

Well, it speaks to his overall work ethic. If he truly is putting forth that effort in practice and in the weight room, then I would assume that there is more to it.

There's also the injury question though that I forgot about for half a second.
 
Quotes from an article on nfl.com by Chase Goodbread


Gamecocks defensive coordinator Lorenzo Ward chose to passionately defend Clowney's work ethic.

"I never had an issue with him. If anything, you had to slow him down," Ward said, according to espn.com. "There were days that Coach [Steve] Spurrier would have to tell us to take him off the field or they weren't going to get anything accomplished on offense. And that's the truth because they couldn't get a pass off on him."

Ward, however, was around Clowney on a daily basis for three seasons, and saw none of the effort issues that Clowney is for which the star pass rusher is reputed.

Sorry, but this is the most laughable quote I've read about Clowney honestly. If it were true and I could believe it, I would want Clowney more than any other player for sure. This would be a no brainer.

But I'm supposed to believe that Clowney played this way in practice regularly when he wouldn't give anywhere near that effort in ESPN televised games when he was in the Heisman hunt?? Sorry, but that just doesn't really add up.
 
This.



Well, it speaks to his overall work ethic. If he truly is putting forth that effort in practice and in the weight room, then I would assume that there is more to it.

There's also the injury question though that I forgot about for half a second.

How is this believable when this guy wouldn't play nearly that hard in Prime time games? I think his coaches are taking the high road at this point and don't want to **** on their player before the draft. That would be horrible for future recruiting. I'm sure he had a practice or two like that over the years though. He has the ability, but I'm not about to believe that he played like this in practice regularly when he clearly didn't in what was obvious as his last year in college. This was basically a contract year for him, and he disappointed the masses.
 
But I'm supposed to believe that Clowney played this way in practice regularly when he wouldn't give anywhere near that effort in ESPN televised games when he was in the Heisman hunt?? Sorry, but that just doesn't really add up.

It's pretty easy to see if you bothered to watch the tape; I imagine there isn't much worth is running practices to leave extra help on one guy for 25% of all snaps, minimum.
 
It's pretty easy to see if you bothered to watch the tape; I imagine there isn't much worth is running practices to leave extra help on one guy for 25% of all snaps, minimum.

Watched the game tape? Well if that's the case, you clearly didn't watch it. If you did, you'd understand all of the criticism from tons of people across the country. To deny that any of it is relevant is laughable. You go watch the tape for yourself instead of listening to ESPN analysts choke on themselves over his size and stature. That won't do anything in the NFL if you aren't a high motor player at that position, and he clearly wasn't. Funny though, how many of you like to just deny that it exists at all for some reason, but yet you don't hear any of that stuff about a guy like Mack or even Barr for that matter. It's all over the place on CLowney. But people just need to watch the tape right? Lol!
 
Watched the game tape? Well if that's the case, you clearly didn't watch it. If you did, you'd understand all of the criticism from tons of people across the country. To deny that any of it is relevant is laughable. You go watch the tape for yourself instead of listening to ESPN analysts choke on themselves over his size and stature. That won't do anything in the NFL if you aren't a high motor player at that position, and he clearly wasn't. Funny though, how many of you like to just deny that it exists at all for some reason, but yet you don't hear any of that stuff about a guy like Mack or even Barr for that matter. It's all over the place on CLowney. But people just need to watch the tape right? Lol!

So I'll take that as a "No, I didn't." Keep making assumptions about Clowney and whomever dares to disagree with your half-baked analysis, Tex.
 
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