Case Keenum has great pocket presence when it comes to evading the pressure of a pass rush or blitz then extending the play. That's where Matt Schaub is complete trash... outside of that I really respect Schaub's game. I'm definitely happy to see Case developing into a possible great starting qb but right now he's a backup due to the process.
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Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB (Yates named #2)
- Thread starter legacy_gt
- Start date
Vinnie
with an I E
Yeah, I think it's a foregone conclusion. LZ even mentioned this morning that considering their play so far, if either Case or TJ were to land on the PS they'd be snatched. I don't see Kubiak letting that happen with all the time they've put in developing these guys.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
This is not exactly true. Case just needs to take the position from Yates. Yates is never going to be the starter here. Not sure why some people still have this delusion of that ever happening. Even Kubiak isn't that silly.
If Case can decisively take the 2nd string job, Schaub could easily get hurt with how slow he is when he is blitzed or takes a hit. Everyone knows Schaub is pretty fragile. Case could potentially get a chance to start for a game or so in the regular season and could potentially shine for all we know. I've watched Schaub so far this season, and he looks slower then ever. His release does as well. There is no doubt in my mind that he'll struggle a lot against teams that effectively blitz us and get to Schaub, because he simply can't extend plays where defenders disrupt his pocket presence. Case may be going against scrubs, but with his skill set, even if his QB IQ is worse then Schaub's, I think his other intangibles also being other strengths that Schaub doesn't have. When I see a guy like Case moving around in the pocket and making nice throws with better velocity and nice placement, this offense looks like it has tons of more potential.
All it will take is a Schaub injury which we've seen in 3 different seasons could easily happen.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
When you watch other preseason games and see all the terrible QB play from the backups, it's pretty clear that we've got a helluva luxury here in that we've got 2 guys who are respectable backups. I'm really excited by Case because he seems to be growing by leaps and bounds.
I don't know, but I suspect, he's a gamer. He's one of those guys that doesn't practice all that well but who turns it on when the lights come on.
And with Kubiak and a lot of NFL coaches, that's kind of a problem. They don't want to trust anyone who isn't showing them they've got it down during practice. A gamer doesn't help those around him out during practice and might even be a detriment during the week.
Last year, people were worried about Case getting snatched off our PS and those fears were unwarranted. But now? No way he clears waivers.
I don't know, but I suspect, he's a gamer. He's one of those guys that doesn't practice all that well but who turns it on when the lights come on.
And with Kubiak and a lot of NFL coaches, that's kind of a problem. They don't want to trust anyone who isn't showing them they've got it down during practice. A gamer doesn't help those around him out during practice and might even be a detriment during the week.
Last year, people were worried about Case getting snatched off our PS and those fears were unwarranted. But now? No way he clears waivers.
We really don't know what they are doing in practice at times even if we watch it.
Kubiak could tell the QB, hey, throw a ball high and wide, I want to see if this receiver can go get it.
Or he could say, hey, I want you to throw the ball into that tight space; I want to see these two guys fighting for it.
Sometimes, at field level, we can't tell whether a receiver is running the correct route.
I mean, there's a ton of things that we don't have a clue about.
I really hate defending Matt but he's not complete trash. Not as good as we like, sure. But not complete trash.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
If I'm the Redskins, I'm keeping Cousins because I don't expect RG3 to make it through a whole season intact.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
You are delusional.. the posts are public record for everyone to read. Nowhere in any post did I ever say what you said I did. You jumped to conclusions, stuck your foot in your mouth, showed your ***, and accused someone of posting something they didn't.. now you're just being too proud to admit you were wrong. Nobody is moving goal posts, you just shanked the kick.
Anyways.. you still think it sounds dumb to have the opinion that if we cut Keenum, he won't make it to our PS? :vincepalm: There's a reoccurring theme in this thread.. you being wrong.
I concur. I was pointing out one specific area of his game when he's getting blitzed or rushed. You just can't teach athletic ability or foot speed coordination.
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
He said Schaub is trash when trying to extend plays, which is true. Schaub isn't a playmaker and won't make things happen.
PapaL
Loose Screw
He must have lucked in those 4000 yards last year huh? Those back to back 4000 yards were a total fluke too.
PapaL
Loose Screw
Sage was on the radio today and he was talking about how this offense is kind of simple and doesn't put a lot of pressure on the QB's. Pretty much the same thing that's been said by members here. He talked about how when he was here he loved playing for Kubiak because things were very black and white. When QB's called a play he knew this, that and that was his options on the play. Again, been said here before.
Where Schaub struggles at times is when things don't go as planned or he has to make a play "off schedule". You can be a fine system QB...Or a QB that fits well in a system (since people have a weird hang up on "system player"), but there are players that can transcend a system by adding their own unique flair to it. Their mobility, their instincts, their big play ability, their anticipation, their strong arm, great accuracy, their film study and ability to know what defense are doing....
Matt has some of those characteristics but I don't know if anyone thing is strong enough in him that you'd call him a playmaker. Now maybe he could be if he was given more freedom. But he does not have the same amount of freedom that some of these other QB's have.
If anyone doubts that, go listen to the podcast from sr610 of the Sage interview. Unless you think he's a flat out liar for some reason then that really should be the end of it.
He specifically talks about how this offense is basically streamlined with options within each play so that it's easier on the QB to make reads and go through progressions (AKA QB friendly system)) vs his experience behind Eli Manning where he said that Eli basically has access to the whole playbook when he walks up to the LOS.
eriadoc
Texan-American
You don't have to be a playmaker to throw for 4000 yards in today's NFL. You have to be a good QB, so I'm not saying Schaub is bad. But how many of those 4000 yards do you remember thinking only a handful of QBs would have gotten? In all honesty, half the QBs in the league would throw for 4000 yards in this offense under Gary Kubiak, maybe more. Hell, Jake Plummer threw for 4000 yards in this offense.
Moreover, the poster said that Schaub was trash in one specific, very narrowly defined area. That's completely defensible. You don't have to be evasive to throw for 4000 yards in Kubiak's offense. Schaub is NOT evasive. In fact, he's probably only slightly more athletic than QBs that have been called statues in years past.
This whole 4000 yard thing is seriously being overplayed by some of y'all. Schaub's a good QB, but it's not because he threw for 4000 yards.
There are quite a few QB's that I think would be better in this offense than where they are currently. Cam Newton, Josh Freeman, Joe Flacco, Sam Bradford...And a bunch of others.
Schaub is a good player, but that's where it ends. He's not great but good. He's smart, works hard, knows what to do. Those are good attributes to have, but those alone won't make you great.
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
I've watched some other preseason games, and you're exactly right. Some of those other teams have jack **** for their 3rd string QB wannabees.
Except for size (and the fact that he's not super quick like RGIII), I would have to say that Keenum has all the qualities of a QB that Bill Walsh wants.
I remember how Madden talks about the difference between what he wants in a QB vs Walsh; the main thing was that Madden wants his QB to zip the ball even if it's a 5-yd pass while Walsh prefers touch when needed.
In a book that I read, the author told the story of how Montana wasn't asked to go through all five reads until year four or something like that.
With Keenum, one the things that impresses me is how he can go through all five reads in about two seconds in the one back set or in empty.
It is extremely rare that you can find a young QB that can do it.
Also, I'm very impressed with the movement of his eyes and head.
He makes it difficult for the LBs and the safeties to tell where he's gonna go with the ball. You want your QB to be able to freeze these guys for a split of a second to make life easier for the target, be it the RB, the FB, the TE, or the receiver.
There's no way Gabbert can be a starter over Keenum.
I was so glad the Jags didn't take Keenum.
I remember how Madden talks about the difference between what he wants in a QB vs Walsh; the main thing was that Madden wants his QB to zip the ball even if it's a 5-yd pass while Walsh prefers touch when needed.
In a book that I read, the author told the story of how Montana wasn't asked to go through all five reads until year four or something like that.
With Keenum, one the things that impresses me is how he can go through all five reads in about two seconds in the one back set or in empty.
It is extremely rare that you can find a young QB that can do it.
Also, I'm very impressed with the movement of his eyes and head.
He makes it difficult for the LBs and the safeties to tell where he's gonna go with the ball. You want your QB to be able to freeze these guys for a split of a second to make life easier for the target, be it the RB, the FB, the TE, or the receiver.
There's no way Gabbert can be a starter over Keenum.
I was so glad the Jags didn't take Keenum.
In the same book, the author also recounted an interview with a QB whose name skipped my memory.
This QB prospect talked about how the coaches that he went through in workouts wanted to see him throw a rope on deep balls.
He was surprised when Walsh ask him to throw the ball with a little touch on those deep balls (not floating the ball, mind you.)
This QB prospect talked about how the coaches that he went through in workouts wanted to see him throw a rope on deep balls.
He was surprised when Walsh ask him to throw the ball with a little touch on those deep balls (not floating the ball, mind you.)
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
A tangential point but...
Several many years ago, Jeff Blake was one of the hot, new QBs and he was hitting lots of deep passes. And he was doing it by putting extra loft to the ball so that it came down more like a punt. For a DB expecting a throw on a rope, it was coming from a different place and it was dropping right into the receiver while the DB was trying to locate it.
Of course, he had like 1 season where that worked and then everybody figured out how to stop it and had a book on him. And that was pretty much it for him.
I must say that I don't follow Jeff Blake, but you got me to look him up.
It doesn't look to me like he was punting the ball:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=relmfu&v=UhKATuCZ1Ds
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U11SmWC_UNY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DU11SmWC_UNY
badboy
Hall of Fame
It was also said that Texans offense would allow any runner to get a thousand yards. If so, what happened between Dommanick Davis (Williams) and Foster?
badboy
Hall of Fame
Above plus he never looks panic if play breaks down. I still think his biggest asset is his brain.
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
Steve Slaton with over 1280 yards one year and then rb by committee the next (and Foster showing signs of the future towards the end of 09).
eriadoc
Texan-American
Hello, Steve Slaton.
Anyway, it was pretty clear that I meant half or maybe more of the starting QBs in the NFL, not "any" QB. And if it makes you happy, I'll amend my statement to say "NFL caliber starters". How many of those crappy RBs the Texans endured are even in the NFL any longer? The fact that Slappy the college RB didn't manage 1000 yards as a Texan doesn't mean much when he didn't go anywhere else and see any success, either.
I get it that some people like to argue just to argue. I do it myself sometimes. But pick a defensible position.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Ignore the Saints highlights, that was after he'd been in the league for awhile and changed a bit. Look at the earlier, Bengals highlights. He doesn't do it every time, but his whole thing was trying to get the ball to come in to his receiver at more of a downward angle and you can see it in some of those older highlights.
They even had him on the old sports programs back in the 90's talking about it.
No chuck and duck; no fetal position, LOL!
bOODRO87
Time Consumer
Keenum sure is looking good. It's strange seeing a Texans QB getting the ball into the hands of the receivers within seconds. Almost like how Brady was against us in the playoffs. He may get some batted down, but he looks really composed in the pocket. I would love to see a GIF comparing Schaub's and Keenum's wind up/throwing speed on a similar throw.
One of the balls that was batted down was due to the fact the
RG was getting some help from the C.
The Center thought that with his help, the RG would finish the DT off; however, it looks like the RG was thinking that the Center will take over so he left to help the RT.
That left the DT unblocked and he was able to get there at the last moment.
drs23
Veteran
My arm hurts so I can't hold onto the ball Slaton?
Edit: (to eriadoc: just read your follow up post) this wasn't meant to be argumentative though I've been known to be so in the past, I was just more or less being my ol' smartass self.
In the last 8 weeks or so I've gone back & watched every game I still had on my DVR from last season.... about 10 of them. & Schaub made several plays off schedule. Nothing like Kaepernick, but several plays outside the pocket. At least once every game I watched, sometimes twice. & that's not counting the plays he took a big shot & still threw a catchable ball.
I was surprised to see it, because I couldn't remember more than two all year, but they're there. Even as late as the @Indy game.
At the same time, we've seen Orlavsky struggle in this system. & Washington has gone through several guys who couldn't perform to minimum QB standards..... first rounders like David Carr, Rex Grossman & Matt Lienart.
You make it sound like anyone can throw for 4000 yards in 3 of the last 4 seasons in this system. Matt Schaub is a very good square peg in a very good square hole.
Now, clutch factor is something different & something worth arguing.
When Houston didn't have a team, I followed the Saints a bit (couldn't watch the Cowboys & I was a big Ricky Williams fan). I used to love watching Mighty Joe Horn, loved his story too.
I thought it was odd for a guy to go from obscurity to "big headed narcissist" in such a short time. But he was awesome to watch for a little while.
Jeff Blake was kinda short though.
A few years ago, Silvrhand asked for my opinion on Schaub, and I agreed with him that Schaub is a QB that is good enough to take you to the dance, but he doesn't have the charisma to be the major partner. He needs a girl that can shine while he stays strong and steady.
Schaub fell a bit short on that regard last year, and the girl didn't shine either.
this isn't a schaub thread....lol Matt is our guy weather you like it or not until proven otherwise.
As far as Case, what happened to all those people worried about his size and his arm strength.
Seems to me that Case has the best arm strength, quickest release, and shows the most emotion. Case also has the best footwork and instincts.
He's the real deal. Fact of the matter is, TJ isn't playing bad. He's actually doing good. If TJ still does decent, he'll keep the 2nd QB position. And TJ should have no excuse because of his experience.
If Case is 3rd, he'll still work hard, study more, and will be ready if called. Most likely Case will do well against the Cowgirls. He'll put pressure on Schaub, which I think is good. I like how Case looked good with higher quality players last week. Can't imagine with foster and Johnson with Case.
As far as Case, what happened to all those people worried about his size and his arm strength.
Seems to me that Case has the best arm strength, quickest release, and shows the most emotion. Case also has the best footwork and instincts.
He's the real deal. Fact of the matter is, TJ isn't playing bad. He's actually doing good. If TJ still does decent, he'll keep the 2nd QB position. And TJ should have no excuse because of his experience.
If Case is 3rd, he'll still work hard, study more, and will be ready if called. Most likely Case will do well against the Cowgirls. He'll put pressure on Schaub, which I think is good. I like how Case looked good with higher quality players last week. Can't imagine with foster and Johnson with Case.
What has impressed me the most about Case is his composure. Dude never looks rattled out there and this pre-season has really made me into a fan of his in just two games.
I like TJ...as a backup. But, something about Case says starter at some point. He is not going to take Schaub's job, but I would not be surprised if he grows into it someday.
No, what I said is that qb's are generally better in this system than they are in others. I didn't say anything about any old scrub being able to come in and put up 4k yards.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
:vincepalm:
Solomon: Why Case Keenum should not be the Texans backup QB
...and ground breaking journalism like this is why the Houston Crapnicle is the worst major market newspaper in the country.
I can understand if someone feels TJ should start, because of "experience" even if I don't believe that (if a guy has been in the same system through out his college and pro career and is in a dead heat with a 2nd year former PS player, then he should lose the spot anyhow)
... but to have that opinion solely, because Bradlee frickin Van Pelt sucked nearly 10 years ago is ludicrous and lazy. When Jerome Solomon shows up for his check, I hope he's at least wearing a mask and carrying a gun. He needs to take his act to Dallas, because all he usually does is hate on anything Houston and he's nothing, but a professional troll. I can't believe that guy actually gets paid for his opinions. He's just a broke ass Skip Bayless.
Solomon: Why Case Keenum should not be the Texans backup QB
...and ground breaking journalism like this is why the Houston Crapnicle is the worst major market newspaper in the country.
I can understand if someone feels TJ should start, because of "experience" even if I don't believe that (if a guy has been in the same system through out his college and pro career and is in a dead heat with a 2nd year former PS player, then he should lose the spot anyhow)
... but to have that opinion solely, because Bradlee frickin Van Pelt sucked nearly 10 years ago is ludicrous and lazy. When Jerome Solomon shows up for his check, I hope he's at least wearing a mask and carrying a gun. He needs to take his act to Dallas, because all he usually does is hate on anything Houston and he's nothing, but a professional troll. I can't believe that guy actually gets paid for his opinions. He's just a broke ass Skip Bayless.
badboy
Hall of Fame
If I get what I want and we trade or cut MS after 2014, would you re-sign Yates for 2015 (if he would agree to reasonable deal + accept a back up role to Keenum or would you look elsewhere? Currently I am looking for a QB in next draft. It takes 2-3 years to develop so why not get one soon?
Scooter
Funky
if we do decide keenum is our guy (getting well ahead of ourselves), i would attempt to trade both yates and schaub. yates is in his prime as far as the market goes, and i think we'd do right by schaub to get him somewhere he'd be a starter. it's a big deal to have a strong backup, but if we're following your route of taking someone relatively early i think we'd be ok with keenum, draft pick, and someone like mcgee.
Schaub's contract is untradeable $40 million left over 3 seasons. If a team wanted Schaub, they would just wait until the Texans released him, then sign him to a cap friendlier deal. Yates would certainly be picked up if released. I don't know what kind of trade value he would have. Recouping the 5th round pick invested would be the ceiling, I would think.
Yes, we are way, way, way ahead of ourselves.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Good thing is we have two seasons to get where I want to be. We can sit and wait for offers for Yates. MS and Case would keep us stable and perhaps Yates could bring a third round? As 2014 deep draft supposedly, I'd like that this offseason please.
Scooter
Funky
i'm terrible with the money side of things, good info. just for my own curiosity, starting with the '14 season, would an extension make him more attractive? or is there a way the texans could eat part of his salary to make a trade more possible?
i honestly cant imagine a scenario where schaub would be traded regardless of the texans' future (he'd be cut if we went that direction), but in an ideal "madden" type world of course you'd always want to grab another pick when possible.
Scooter
Funky
the talk last year was that teams were coveting yates already, and the way this preseason is going there have to be several teams taking serious notice. all yates needs is a matt flynn type of chance to put up a pretty number and unless the reports are grossly overstated i think he could certainly fetch a 2nd rounder, or two. i honestly wouldnt be surprised if we we're fielding calls right now.
Solomon is garbage. It's like he isn't even watching any of the games. People that say, "there's a reason why Case wasn't drafted" need to stop. It's getting f'n old.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
What reports? I haven't heard whisper one of interest in TJ.
Scooter
Funky
it's just memory (and i hardly have the best one) at this point unless someone can dig it up, but i remember there was talk last season of yates getting quite a bit of attention.
badboy
Hall of Fame
To clarify, I am talking of trading MS after 2014 with two seasons left. If we trade him his prorated bonus is moved up to Texans 2015 which is $3.5 m each or $7 m off his 2015 base of $12.5 m = difference of $5 m. There exists $1 m each year for roster bonus and I am not clear if Houston would be responsible for that or new team. I always include when posting and state a savings of $3 m if cut or traded. His 2015 base and all new team would be responsible for is $12.5 m with 2016 at $14.5 not $40 million. I think there would be more than one team interested in that.
Yates a solid back up and perhaps a starter for some would be worth more than a 5th.