Carr vs Young

[AustinJB]

"GQ looks" and "clean life" are not synonomous with lack of heart or competitive edge. As much as I am dying to know where you draw that comparison from, I am going to avoid asking, as I am afraid it will further diminish your lack of credibility.

Football players don't have to be thug-life to be good or have fire. Neither are they required to broadcast their abilities to anyone and everyone who will listen.

No, but if they are good and have fire, shouldn't you see that on the field? Then they don't have to broadcast their abilities to anyone b/c it will be evident. (YES, it would be evident even if everyone around them sucked.)

I think the point that is being made is that no one sees the results and/or improvement from Carr. It doesn't seem that he is working as much as he should to try to improve; and even if most of this information is from writers, media, etc. from Houston, why would they just single out Carr from the entire team if there wasn't some truth to it? I know...you can't believe everything the media says or writes, but they got the information from somewhere. Also, it hasn't been just ONE member of the media that has made this known; it's been several.

"A leader must identify himself with the group, must back up the group, even at the risk of displeasing superiors. He must believe that the group wants from him a sense of approval. If this feeling prevails, production, discipline, morale will be high, and in return, you can demand the cooperation to promote the goals of the company." -Vince Lombardi

"Leaders are made, they are not born. They are made by hard effort, which is the price which all of us must pay to achieve any goal that is worthwhile." -Vince Lombardi

I haven't seen this from Carr....have you?

 

[Spoda]

there is a guy at la porte jr high...he is in 7th grade...i think he will be better than vince..he will be from houston...i say we draft him no matter what in 7 years

 

[AustinJB]

there is a guy at la porte jr high...he is in 7th grade...i think he will be better than vince..he will be from houston...i say we draft him no matter what in 7 years

He's probably already better than Carr so....why not? LOL

 

[jerek]

No, but if they are good and have fire, shouldn't you see that on the field? Then they don't have to broadcast their abilities to anyone b/c it will be evident. (YES, it would be evident even if everyone around them sucked.)

I think the point that is being made is that no one sees the results and/or improvement from Carr. It doesn't seem that he is working as much as he should to try to improve; and even if most of this information is from writers, media, etc. from Houston, why would they just single out Carr from the entire team if there wasn't some truth to it? I know...you can't believe everything the media says or writes, but they got the information from somewhere. Also, it hasn't been just ONE member of the media that has made this known; it's been several.

"A leader must identify himself with the group, must back up the group, even at the risk of displeasing superiors. He must believe that the group wants from him a sense of approval. If this feeling prevails, production, discipline, morale will be high, and in return, you can demand the cooperation to promote the goals of the company." -Vince Lombardi

"Leaders are made, they are not born. They are made by hard effort, which is the price which all of us must pay to achieve any goal that is worthwhile." -Vince Lombardi

I haven't seen this from Carr....have you?

(A) "Everybody" says it, then it must be true?

(B) The media has been pretty quiet about Carr and his "fault" in this 2-14 season. While it is true that you have not heard "the lone bright spot in this season has been David Carr's performance" ... that is hardly synonomous with failure.

Many noteworthy minds of the NFL community (coaches, analysts, etc.) have taken defense of Carr, have pointed out time and again that his relative lack of success is Carr making the best of a doomed situation, that any other QB could be expected to perform similarly throughout the season.

It is only on this message board that you consistently (hell, if at all, really) see Carr as the "lemon."

It would be convenient, but it not accurate to blame him. Too much of the time, it boils down to "draft Vince" crap: and not even the good arguments for drafting Vince, but so much blind praise of the untouchable god of victory.

Our sportswriters' debatable lack of writing skill and focus do not equate to Carr being a failure. You have entirely too much faith in the press if you believe their accounts of our team's activities as being the truthful and complete story.

EDIT: I have seen hard work from Carr, I have personally seen him work with his receivers and do all of these things that "no one" knows about. I am not a guy who is going to tell you that DC is "undoubtedly a future hall of famer, will win us x amount of Super Bowls, etc. etc." I can only tell you that he is a hard worker, a stand up guy, and, in my opinion, a good player who has not been given his chance. Say what you want, but football is a team sport.

If we were 13-3 right now and DC had put up precisely the same stat line, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. The bottom line is that the Texans lost a lot of games this year and people are pointing the broom in the wrong direction.

 

[Dubble Trubble]

I think we gotta take Vince. Im no Longhorn (Cane fan)....but, I am a deep rooted Texans' fan, since day 1.

I think what most are losing touch with...is this franchise is still young. Not a franchise that was just on the cusp of winning the SB, with a free agent move needed here or there. The Texans' are young, with nice sized pockets (with the potential to become even bigger on the back of a hometown almost-hero)....there's no real rush. Heck, in the Grand Scheme of the things that we know about the NFL....we're still working on our foundation, as a franchise.

With that....I don't understand why it would hurt that much to, basically, start over with Vince. He's a QB with big upside, that could grow with a franchise that's, already, in the process of "new beginings" anyway (See: Kubchek).

Now, since the begining...Ive been on the Carr band wagon....because, I always start off having the starting QB's back. But, even more-so, Ima Texan' fan. With that in mind....there's no way anyone could convince me that the upside for this team wouldn't be greater, for a longer period of time-starting with '06, with DC instead of Vince.

True...Vince has issues with the mechanics...but, there's nothing there that couldn't be corrected (just like ALL soon-to-be-Pros in the NFL).

Now, I'll admit....before Vince wanted to come out, I was a Bush supporter. In fact, a few weeks after Vince's decision, I was still behind picking Bush. But, Ive come to the conclusion that picking Vince is just the right choice on alot of levels that can be milked for the good of everyone...be it the Texan's future, marketing, fanbase, etc.

....and, what's better than the position of being able to get him? Him being from here and wanting to be here.


By no means do I think Vince is a lock. In fact, everyone's a fracture or a break away from being a bust. But, I think Vince is one of those Golden opportunites that you'd be a fool to pass up on. Pick Vince...use the rest of the picks ("yes"....we have more picks) wisely....be smart with free agent money, and start making progress towards making it to that above-500% mark that we were looking for.


PS- Why does it feel like everyone is taking the possibility of Vince going to Tenn. too lightly?

 

[Sudds]

People please, get over it! VY had a great college career, that's it. He had a great National Championship game vs. USC, that's it. Fresno State's offense dominated SC more than Texas and VY. SC's defense was and is absolutely horrible this year. Please, as educated football fans, realize that everything we've seen from VY just this year, was against very poor defenses. David Carr's senior season at Fresno State was far and away better statistically than VY's. He took a mid-major to #8 in the BCS. Just because you have a great college career, doesn't mean that you will become the greatest QB to ever live.

By pushing VY's stats on us constantly, it makes you look more and more like a homer with a bias. That is not what the Texans need on draft day. Tp say we need to replace Carr with VY is an absolute waste of a draft pick. Carr will be fine with Kubiak, and probably even better than VY would be with Kubiak. Trade down or get Bush.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

I can then assume you won't mind me merging this with another Vince Young thread since this is not covering new ground either.

 

[Wharton]

So what if DC's stats are better in college. He has not done anything in the Pros that shows me he can play this game at a winning level. Until he does, I am going to keep gripping, complaining or whatever else I can think of to get the message across.

Since it appears that Kubes, who I have great faith in, want to keep DC, I hope I am wrong. But, until his play improves and we start winning, I am sticking to my current assessment - Carr Stinks!

Deal with it!

 

[New_Texans]

The only reason fresno lost a few games that year was because their defense was horrible.

I agree, dont give Kubiak a rookie QB then get him fired in 2 years. Keep Carr because we have more problems other than the QB postion. Also, get bush cause that gives u 3 offensive threats and we will have 3 more picks after that in the first 3 rounds i believe.



I would like to have David Thomas though...

Then again... we could trade down and get AJ Hawk or DeBrickashaw(????) plus a few more picks...

 

[Wharton]

I can then assume you won't mind me merging this with another Vince Young thread since this is not covering new ground either.

Whew, thank goodness. I thought there was 58 replies in the time was typing my previous post.

 

[New_Texans]

Can you say Couch..... as in Tim Couch.

Tim Couch didnt even play that much... and he threw INTs all the time, he looked like a rookie all the years he played in the league.

 

[Jack Bauer]

I have been looking through the history books and cant seem to find any mention of Slocumb being successful at A&M.

Slocum's career record is 123-47-2 (.721) in 14 seasons at Texas A&M. That is almost 9 wins per season. A winning percentage of 72%! Coaching elite status? No. VERY successful? Yes. The Aggies won the Big 12 South twice (97,98) and won the Big 12 Championship once (98).

Many of the Aggies still in the NFL have Slocum to thank for preparing them for the next level.

If you can't call Slocum a success, then your definition of success is what? Not every coach is going to win a national championship. Tom Osborne took 30 years in Nebraska. Coaches do not get 30 years at one place anymore.

 

[Huge]

People please, get over it! VY had a great college career, that's it. He had a great National Championship game vs. USC, that's it. Fresno State's offense dominated SC more than Texas and VY. SC's defense was and is absolutely horrible this year. Please, as educated football fans, realize that everything we've seen from VY just this year, was against very poor defenses. David Carr's senior season at Fresno State was far and away better statistically than VY's. He took a mid-major to #8 in the BCS. Just because you have a great college career, doesn't mean that you will become the greatest QB to ever live.

By pushing VY's stats on us constantly, it makes you look more and more like a homer with a bias. That is not what the Texans need on draft day. Tp say we need to replace Carr with VY is an absolute waste of a draft pick. Carr will be fine with Kubiak, and probably even better than VY would be with Kubiak. Trade down or get Bush.

Hilarious.

You're tired of Young supporters pushing his stats on you because you feel that they came against "poor defenses". But yet you wasted no time in pointing out Carr's "far and away" better statistics in college but don't mention what teams those stats came against (a hint...it was the WAC conference).

Preach on, oh educated one.

 

[Charley28]

I thought trading Carr to the Saints for the no. 2 and picking up a quarterback with a winner's history and mentality was a good idea. I am certain that it wouldn't fly for a lot of reasons but it is a good idea as a very knowledgable EYEGUY has explained. They say we have 4 years invested in Carr. We should write off this investment. People had many more years invested in enron and finally lost everything. Carr may have had great potential but has now been trained and indoctrinated as a loser in Houston. He may be useful to another team after serious brainwashing and retraining but he will always be a loser in Houston.

 

[Señor Stan]

I thought trading Carr to the Saints for the no. 2 and picking up a quarterback with a winner's history and mentality was a good idea. I am certain that it wouldn't fly for a lot of reasons but it is a good idea as a very knowledgable EYEGUY has explained. They say we have 4 years invested in Carr. We should write off this investment. People had many more years invested in enron and finally lost everything. Carr may have had great potential but has now been trained and indoctrinated as a loser in Houston. He may be useful to another team after serious brainwashing and retraining but he will always be a loser in Houston.

How in the world can you choose the title "bush vs vince young" and not metion either player in your post?

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

How in the world can you choose the title "bush vs vince young" and not metion either player in your post?

I am sure that I can find a thread with a similiar title somewhere

 

[gwallaia]

How in the world can you choose the title "bush vs vince young" and not metion either player in your post?

Now that was funny.

bush vs vince young Now that would be an interesting topic to discuss. I wonder why it has been overlooked on this message board.

 

[swtbound07]

I am sure that I can a thread with a similiar title somewhere

hehehe! a typo! the grammar nazi strikes again....the word you are missing is "find" sir.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

hehehe! a typo! the grammar nazi strikes again....the word you are missing is "find" sir.

I would have eventually "found" it.

 

[swtbound07]

im just messin with you man....its friday night, and i dont have anything better to do but drink and make nonsensical posts

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

im just messin with you man....its friday night, and i dont have anything better to do but drink and make nonsensical posts

I took it that way, as most of the long-termers around here know I am a horrible typist and usually wind up fixing a large percentage of my threads.

 

[threetoedpete]

I know you weren't the first one to say this BroncoFan, but I'm just sick of people saying this w/out any basis for comparison. Don't just pick a bust that comes to mind; at least try to use someone w/ comparable stats.

Oh yeah, that's right...it's because when you stack up all the "running" QBs that everyone likes to try to compare VY to, VY's stats are better overall than all of them (I realize that stats don't tell the whole story, but it's all you have to go off of at this point in their career).

Vince Young (last college season), 6? 5? 230 lbs
3036 passing yards
65.2 comp%
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Kordell Stewart (last college season) 6?1? 218lbs.
2071 passing yards
62.0 comp%
247 attempts 147 completions, 8.7 avg. yds/attempt
10 TDs, 3 INT
122 rushes for 818 yards, 5.2 avg. yds/rush, 7 TDs

Please quit throwing those stats at me. Go rewatch the Oklahoma game and the Tech game. VY absoltely stunk up the house with his passing, er Flinging.
No what you have to go on is his past preformances.
If the franchise takes the guy I'll support it. But this ain't Austin. We don't have an all world OL and a bunch of smurfs running around wide open. This is the NFL wich means not for long if you can't hit a target on time and on target. To pay a guy, any guy fifty million or so to ride the pine is crazy. VY might make the transition. Then again, he might not. That sound you heard thursday was Kubes letting the VY guys gently. Gig'em. Might work out.

 

[Tha_Tinman]

People please, get over it! VY had a great college career, that's it. He had a great National Championship game vs. USC, that's it. Fresno State's offense dominated SC more than Texas and VY. SC's defense was and is absolutely horrible this year. Please, as educated football fans, realize that everything we've seen from VY just this year, was against very poor defenses. David Carr's senior season at Fresno State was far and away better statistically than VY's. He took a mid-major to #8 in the BCS. Just because you have a great college career, doesn't mean that you will become the greatest QB to ever live.

By pushing VY's stats on us constantly, it makes you look more and more like a homer with a bias. That is not what the Texans need on draft day. Tp say we need to replace Carr with VY is an absolute waste of a draft pick. Carr will be fine with Kubiak, and probably even better than VY would be with Kubiak. Trade down or get Bush.

He had great college career ...a great Nat'l Championship game ...THAT'S IT?? Is that not enough? What then do we base a collegiate player's worth on? Wow! The 2-14 Texans had many problems ...McNair made a step in the right direction by firing Capers ...and Capers is a great guy ...the next step is getting rid of Carr ...also a great guy. Nothing personal ...business never is.

Capers' downfall was that he allowed a GREAT defense go to pot all at once. That defense carried the team while we waited for Carr to get the offense on pace (which never happened). We lost two pro-bowlers in Sharper & Glenn AND Gary Walker (might have been a PBer too) AND Foreman ...all defensive standouts ...ALL GONE ...PLUS ...he should've drafted Derrick Johnson (yeah he's from Texas too ...so what) What kind of coach lets all of his best defensive players go. YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK ...GOODBYE!

Bush is exceptional, but we've got a RB (who by the way JUST signed a 4 year contract extension) that has rushed for 1,000+ 3 yrs running. How about standing by THAT guy who has actually showed some promise.

David Carr has to take his lumps too. We can't keep blaming that offensive line. Yeah run blocking is different than pass blocking but the QB has to get rid of the ball in a timely fashion. They even had the WRs shortening their routes to help Carr beat the pressure ...HE JUST CAN'T GET IT DONE. It does no good to have Andre Johnson if we can't allow him to use his size and strength on this puny CBs down the field.

Draft Vince ...defenses have to play honest. No constant blitzing because he can make you pay. But he'll need help also ...

Free Agency
Josh McCown - QB - a great hardworking guy (fellow SHSU Alum)

Jonathan Wells - RB - resign him ...he's a hard worker with a great attitude
Michael Bennet - RB - if not, this guy is a speedy guy that would compliment Davis in the backfield.

Corey Bradford - WR - RESIGN HIM ....RIGHT NOW! Why are you still standing there???!!? Go NOWWWWW!
Other WRs Avail - Josh Reed, Reggie Wayne, Koren Robinson
Terrell Owens - WR - Yeah yeah yeah, I know ...

Teyo Johnson - TE - Vince works really well with an athletic TE

OL - I don't know much about them ...umm ...get some good ones!

John Abraham - DE - If he's available ...you gotta make a run for him

Julian Peterson - OLB - see above

Charles Woodson - CB - Might be a risk at this point but he'd be a good role model for Dunta & Buchanan, but so was Aaron Glenn (whom I played HS ball with ...whatever that's worth ...yeah not much huh, lol)

Adam Archuleta - S - might be available, really solid guy
Keith Davis - S - Another Sam Houston State guy ...college numbers almost identical to Roy Williams at Oklahoma


You certainly can't go out and pick up ALL these guys ...but this is a good place to start ...McNair ...this one's on the house ...hit me up and we can strike up a deal for the next one.

 

[AustinJB]

Please quit throwing those stats at me. Go rewatch the Oklahoma game and the Tech game. VY absoltely stunk up the house with his passing, er Flinging.
No what you have to go on is his past preformances.
If the franchise takes the guy I'll support it. But this ain't Austin. We don't have an all world OL and a bunch of smurfs running around wide open. This is the NFL wich means not for long if you can't hit a target on time and on target. To pay a guy, any guy fifty million or so to ride the pine is crazy. VY might make the transition. Then again, he might not. That sound you heard thursday was Kubes letting the VY guys gently. Gig'em. Might work out.

Well, I understand why you don't like stats....b/c they seem to prove that you're wrong. Yeah, VY can't hit a target on time and accurately....must be why he was among the league's elite in comp%.:brickwall

I'll tell you what is crazier than paying VY $50 mil to sit for a season to learn the NFL......it's paying Carr $50 mil to run around and make bad decisions for 4 years and when you have the chance to get someone potentially better, you sign him to an extension and keep dumping money on him b/c of HIS potential that he has yet to prove

Oh yeah....more stats for you. VY's "passing, er FLINGING" in the Oklahoma and Tx Tech game doesn't seem too bad to me (not his best games but productive and got the W.)

Vs. Oklahoma
14 of 27 for 241 passing yds, 3 TD
62 yds rushing

Vs. TxTech
12 of 22 for 239 passing yds, 2 TD
45 yds rushing

BTW, I find it amusing that most of VY's "bad" games that people point to show him to have productive passing yds and limited rushing yards.....yet the same people rip VY for only being able to run and not pass.

 

[infantrycak]

Capers' downfall was that he allowed a GREAT defense go to pot all at once. That defense carried the team while we waited for Carr to get the offense on pace (which never happened). We lost two pro-bowlers in Sharper & Glenn AND Gary Walker (might have been a PBer too) AND Foreman ...all defensive standouts ...ALL GONE ...PLUS ...he should've drafted Derrick Johnson (yeah he's from Texas too ...so what) What kind of coach lets all of his best defensive players go. YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK ...GOODBYE!

Step away from the caps lock and let's get some facts involved. So a 24th ranked D is now GREAT? Better than 2005 definitely, but IMO to get described as good, much less great, you need to be in the top half of the league. Sharper never went to a pro-bowl and succumbed to an anticipated injury in Seattle. Walker did go to a pro-bowl. By the way, Walker is the only defensive player to have gone to the pro-bowl as a Texan--and they kept him. Glenn went in 2000 and 2001 as a Jet. I wanted to keep Glenn one more year, but he wasn't the best CB on the team by the end of the 2004 season. Foreman was such a defensive standout that when released by the Texans he couldn't even catch on anywhere as a backup player and sat last year out.

Now what you missed in there alone justifies sacking Capers--picking and keeping Fangio. That guy could coach Tiger Woods into a Boone's Farm besotted driving range pro.

 

[Tha_Tinman]

Step away from the caps lock and let's get some facts involved. So a 24th ranked D is now GREAT? Better than 2005 definitely, but IMO to get described as good, much less great, you need to be in the top half of the league. Sharper never went to a pro-bowl and succumbed to an anticipated injury in Seattle. Walker did go to a pro-bowl. By the way, Walker is the only defensive player to have gone to the pro-bowl as a Texan--and they kept him. Glenn went in 2000 and 2001 as a Jet. I wanted to keep Glenn one more year, but he wasn't the best CB on the team by the end of the 2004 season. Foreman was such a defensive standout that when released by the Texans he couldn't even catch on anywhere as a backup player and sat last year out.

What I meant was ...the defense was good enough to win them SOME games. That terrible offense put them in some really bad situations via turnovers, inability to make st downs, and bad field position. The defense played way above their heads ...rankings be damned.

I think that was the major difference in the 2-14 season ...no defense to bail the offense out!

 

[infantrycak]

What I meant was ...the defense was good enough to win them SOME games. That terrible offense put them in some really bad situations via turnovers, inability to make st downs, and bad field position. The defense played way above their heads ...rankings be damned.

I think that was the major difference in the 2-14 season ...no defense to bail the offense out!

We actually had the 19th ranked O in 2004 which fell to 30th in 2005 and the 24th ranked D in 2004 which fell to 31st. Basically a full team melt down (which points to coaching since the personnel turnover was not that great) but the O fell further than the D, 11 spots to 7--hey, the whole thing sucked so what's a few spots anyway.

 

[Coach C.]

Infantry as a service man you know defense is more important than offense. Offense can be manufactured in many different ways. Defense if it is not up to par then it gets exposed. I aggree with your rebuttal to Tha_Tinman because his thought was not properly written, but I do agree that defense has to be a priority for this offseason if we want to see the most improvement.

 

[infantrycak]

Infantry as a service man you know defense is more important than offense. Offense can be manufactured in many different ways. Defense if it is not up to par then it gets exposed. I aggree with your rebuttal to Tha_Tinman because his thought was not properly written, but I do agree that defense has to be a priority for this offseason if we want to see the most improvement.

With semantic or small differences we probably agree. German and American forces have shown the worth of counterattack as a defense and move toward offense--so I am not sure I totally agree on the military worth of D vs. O. Hard to think of an analogy for the football field. But in any event, I expect Kubiack to make the most out of incredibly underutilized O talent so with one or two pieces IMO (not necessarily high picks, but a TE and someone like Mangold) Kubiack should be able to make a significant leap. On D the picture is murkier and there are more positions in doubt so I would not mind at all seeing a D oriented draft.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

Hard to think of an analogy for the football field.

Yeah I chopped your point up, but any excuse to quote Carlin is worth it.

Football is played on a GRIDIRON, in a STADIUM, sometimes called SOLDIER FIELD or WAR MEMORIAL STADIUM.

In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his receivers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.