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Carr Leadership Quote
- Thread starter The Pencil Neck
- Start date
TwinSisters
Veteran
texan279 said:
Plummer got his team to the playoffs. Plummer dropped from one of the best in the league and moved back into the best in the league.
Carr has not.
1998 - Plummer 2nd year/ 15th points scored 25th points allowed ( 30 teams )
2001 - Plummer 5th year / 20th points scored 22nd points allowed ( 31 teams )
In both of those seasons he was top 10 NFL QB
99 - benched or hurt ( don't remember )
00 - HC changed midstream
Plummer never goes more then 2 seasons without flashing
Carr has 4 straight without anything to show for it
Besides the fact that these two QBs are not the same type of people.
2004 Houston is 15th and 22nd out of 32 teams ( Carr's best season that gets him up into the top 15 out of 32 )
texan279 said:
Woops.......
I took a shot.....
texan279
Hall of Fame
TwinSisters said:
So QB ranking in the league is more important than the actual QB's stats or his performance on the field? You know it could have been a crappy year for QB's the year Plummer was ranked, because those two seasons he was ranked were WORSE than Carr's last two seasons.
TexansLucky13 said:
First tell me what Bias am i trying to hide??
Have you not seen David assume the fetal position??
have you not seen him run into a sack??
have you seen him go through a progression?? even when he has time??
have you ever seen him run out of bounds with the ball..... behind the line of scrimmage??
You tell me who is keeping those stats, and I'll swap some #s with you.
Tell me what you think of Joey Harrington....... would you bring him onto this team?? Tim Couch?? if he was medically fit, would you want him on this team?? Kitna, would you swap him for David Carr??
more TDs than interceptions........ that's a useless stat.... you know why?? every one of the guys I've mentioned are behind Carr in that category....... yet I believe they all threw more TDs period, and didn't take as many sacks... so when I add them up........ my way, they come out ahead.
Don't take that to mean that I don't want David here....... or that I'm bitter about anything that happened in April.....
I think all those guys I've mentioned suck also..... but none of them save Kitna was ever given a better opportunity than Carr.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
I didn't imply that you did, I was just commenting on the QB situation in Detroit, so I talked about Kitna.
thunderkyss said:
You see this is why I don't like threads like this, because the same excuse you made for Harrington can be made for Carr, IMO Mooch has had more success in this league before coaching Harrington, than Capers has. He had a ovrl. record of 60-43 earning 4 playoff berths in 6 seasons. Dom had a 30-34 ovrl coaching record with one year of success when he reached the NFC championship game before comming to Houston. If your going to bring coaching into the equation we have to be fair.
thunderkyss said:
This statement has me a little confussed, because in a previous post you said......
thunderkyss said:
Having said that, the Lions did happen to win 4 NFL championships, 3 in a six year span under a very unsung underrated Quarterback by the name of Bobby Layne.
thunderkyss said:
I'll take a guy that has shown with time, he has the ability to make ALL the throws and hit open receivers over a guy that has shown with time he can't. I have also never bought into the "his receivers are hurt argument either". We haven't exactly had a steller WR core, until now.
I'm not trying to start a argument here....Again this is why I don't like threads like this, because they don't end. My whole intention was to comment on Joey's game (since I watched every game last season), nothing more, and in my opinion he just doesn't have the mental make up to be successful in this league, he lets the pressure get to him and just has a look on his face like he's constipated or something (couldn't think of another way to describe the look...sorry)
All the questions and doubt on Carr's game will either be confirmed or dismissed soon enough when the season starts, so I really don't care to comment on this issue further.
texan279 said:
Look, if you think this means that David is/was a better QB than Plummer, then you have to admit to me, right here, right now, that Aaron Brooks is a better QB than Carr.
texan279
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
Never said Carr was better than Plummer, just saying if Plummer "earns 6 years" like you said, than Carr deserves at least 6 as well, compare both of their 3rd and 4th seasons, that is why I highlighted them...Carr's first 2 seasons were BETTER than Plummers 3rd and 4th seasons and Carr 's play improved in season 3 and 4 compared to Plummer's play declining in his 3rd and 4th season...I am off to work, be back in about 30 to continue the discussion...
I'll take the blame on that one..... it should be pretty obvious by now, I don't know who I'm arguing with, over what, or what my point is.Carr Bomb said:
Carr Bomb said:
Good points, but keep in mind, Capers did it with two expansion teams, and Mooch was handed one of the better teams of the decade.
before my time....... my point though........ the lions have sucked for a long long time.Carr Bomb said:
when you put it that way..... yeahCarr Bomb said:
Okay..... if this was a lions/dolphins board, I'd argue the point.... but since you don't want to go into this, and I don't want to go into this....Carr Bomb said:
Carr Bomb said:
True Dat....... True Dat.......
Peace bro..
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
no problem, I just can't wait till the day when we don't have to talk about the Oline or QB position......
peace
peace
TexansLucky13
53d Signal Batt
Thunderkyss, 80% of the stuff you just mentioned is due to the fact that the O-line was worthless in past years. What are you trying to do here? Prove that Carr has had a bad O-line? Newsflash pal, the falty O-line is being addressed.
What do you call Carrs 2004 season stats? A fluke? Luck?? 2004 showed 50 sacks for Carr, which is an average season stat for him considering he has been brought down 208 times. He only lost two fumbles. The O-line was failing then, but he managed to pull off 3500+ yards.
Sure, David makes bad choices. Heck, I will admit that he causes a lot of his sacks.... there is no denying that. But that doesn't give the O-line an excuse. Once they can do their job, he can do his. I wonder if Peyton could brush 4,000+ yards and 30+ TDs if he had the O-line that David had to deal with? Not a chance.
I think you downsize the O-line situation and add drama by making Carr appear to be the reason for 90% of his sacks. Oh, you are right.... Carr should be able to take a 2 step drop and bullet it for a 6 yard gain every play. Silly me.
Once again, I pose my point. You blame Carr for his sacks. I blame him for some, but I also commend him for performing well in 2004 despite the dismal O-line.
Carr came into this league on a team who got him sacked. I only wonder what he could have done with the Lions, especially if they had managed to acquire someone like AJ after his rookie year.
What do you call Carrs 2004 season stats? A fluke? Luck?? 2004 showed 50 sacks for Carr, which is an average season stat for him considering he has been brought down 208 times. He only lost two fumbles. The O-line was failing then, but he managed to pull off 3500+ yards.
Sure, David makes bad choices. Heck, I will admit that he causes a lot of his sacks.... there is no denying that. But that doesn't give the O-line an excuse. Once they can do their job, he can do his. I wonder if Peyton could brush 4,000+ yards and 30+ TDs if he had the O-line that David had to deal with? Not a chance.
I think you downsize the O-line situation and add drama by making Carr appear to be the reason for 90% of his sacks. Oh, you are right.... Carr should be able to take a 2 step drop and bullet it for a 6 yard gain every play. Silly me.
Once again, I pose my point. You blame Carr for his sacks. I blame him for some, but I also commend him for performing well in 2004 despite the dismal O-line.
Carr came into this league on a team who got him sacked. I only wonder what he could have done with the Lions, especially if they had managed to acquire someone like AJ after his rookie year.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Titan "Tack" Fan said:
Been done a few times in just the last month or two. In general, most of us are pro-Carr.
texan279 said:
I'm not an Arizona Cardinals fan..... never liked the team...... never liked the colors...... never liked the logo..... But there was a time, when if I couldn't catch the Cowboys, or the Saints on TV, I'd try to get the Arizona game, just to see what Jake would do... he was exciting to watch.... you never knew when he was going to lead his team to a 4th quarter comeback.
If I were not a Houston Texans fan(that's my story, and I'm sticking to it) I doubt seriously that I'd tune in for a game.
If I were playing fantasy football back then, and I had to choose between starting Carr, or starting plummer, then maybe those stats would be important....... maybe.
TwinSisters
Veteran
texan279 said:
The NFL ranking is based on his stats and production on the field. It's important to use the rankings because it shows how the QB performed against his peers and avoids comparisons like Sonny Jurgenson's 1961 season to Carr's 2004 season. While Jurgenson threw 24 INTs that year and passed for the same amount yards it is not comparable in that sense. Jurgenson was at the top of the NFL, while Carr was still struggling to put together two wins in a row.
Passer ratings of 80 are not that hot when the best are 90-100+ and the same for completion percentages and all the other stats. It's their relation to their peers that matters the most.
The question on earned or given comes into play when you have to ask is this guy the best that can play the position at the given time? So if 1998 was a weak year for QBs, Plummer would be amongst the the best that the Cardinals could have started.
That's why Kitna is not starting for the Bengals. That's why Harrington is not starting for the Lions. ( to be fair Kitna had some kinda case to be made, but his team was 2-14 going 8-8 when they drafted Carson Palmer. He showed some life in the 8-8 season before Palmer took the starting job, but I guess it was just not enough to justify the 8-8 finish. Kitna was a top 10 NFL QB when they replaced him with Carson Palmer. Who's to 2nd guess now though because Palmer got them to the playoffs last year )
TexansLucky13 said:
As it stands right now, we have done the same thing Capers and co... have done...... shuffled around the starting talent, and add one old Vet to the mix.
Basically that means we are going to start that same bunch of wortless guys on the O-line.
TexansLucky13 said:
so what are you saying that proves??
that he didn't suck last year?? that we changed coaches between 2004 & 2005??
The problem, is that no one but Kubiak is giving the O-Line a break.... what was wrong with Carr last year?? The O-Line and the coaches......TexansLucky13 said:
what was wrong with the O-line last year?? they just suck.
kind of a double standard to me....
you'd be surprised........ Reggie Wayne wasn't always Reggie Wayne....TexansLucky13 said:
TexansLucky13 said:
I don't know how many sacks really should be accounted to Carr.... 10, 20, more?? I don't know. But I know I'd hate to be an OLineman with Carr back there....
and since you brought up a 2 step drop...... how do you take a sack, when you call a 1 step/3 step drop?? when your backfoot is planted, you throw the ball..... you don't try to read coverage, you throw the ball. It's a gamble, but that's the whole idea behind it. throw the ball.
TexansLucky13 said:
well we're going into 2006 with a dismal Offensive line, but I bet you're all cheery about that.
TexansLucky13 said:
TwinSisters
Veteran
Carr Bomb said:
Offsides!
Bobby Layne is not unsung or underrated.
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=126
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
The thing about Jake was his 2nd year (iirc), even though it wasn't that good statistically, the Cards did make it to the playoffs and get their first post-season win in a zillion years.
His big problem has been trying to put the team on his shoulders and carry them when he didn't need to and then throw interceptions at the wrong times. In his second season, he was being called the 2nd coming of Elway... and I think he kinda coasted after that and things fell apart.
EDIT: OK. I was doing this from memory and I thought he took them to the playoffs in his 2ndyear, not his third. My bad.
2nd EDIT: Or was it his 2nd year...
Hulk75 said:
hmm....... he was sacked 15 times in 2003..... his best yardage year was 2004, when he was sacked 49 times......
The Patriots won the Superbowl in 2001 with a first year starter, an OLine that gave up 46 sacks, a nobody RB, and two nobody(at the time) recievers...
TwinSisters
Veteran
The Pencil Neck said:
2nd year. Beat the Cowboys in the playoffs. Lost to the Vikings next round.
That was the 98 Vikings year.
"but I also commend him for performing well in 2004 despite the dismal O-line.'
As has been mentioned by many posters, Carr had a good 1st half in 2004, lousy 2nd half-continuing into 2005 (string of 25 games). Carr had more int's than TD's the 2nd half and ended the season with that 6 sack performance against the Browns (worse team in the league that year). We won 7 games (4 against the Jags and Titans) and only beat 1 winning team that year--our best year to date.
...one other point--Carr's accuracy. I think this figure is enhanced by the fact that most of Carr's throws are 'short' passes, especially to DD. David is not known for taking chances throwing the ball down field.
As has been mentioned by many posters, Carr had a good 1st half in 2004, lousy 2nd half-continuing into 2005 (string of 25 games). Carr had more int's than TD's the 2nd half and ended the season with that 6 sack performance against the Browns (worse team in the league that year). We won 7 games (4 against the Jags and Titans) and only beat 1 winning team that year--our best year to date.
...one other point--Carr's accuracy. I think this figure is enhanced by the fact that most of Carr's throws are 'short' passes, especially to DD. David is not known for taking chances throwing the ball down field.
TexansLucky13
53d Signal Batt
tsip said:
And what does that mean? He put up 3500+ yards with only half a season of good performance? Jeez, Carr is more of a stud than I thought! Come on 2006 season!
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
TwinSisters said:
Pulling up a story doesn't mean he isn't underated, most of the people on this board probably don't know anything about him or heard his name before.
TwinSisters
Veteran
tsip said:
After reading that... I would fire every one of them. O mercy. And to think I would be so shameless with Lions' fans.
TwinSisters
Veteran
Carr Bomb said:
NO WAY! He's almost a Texas legend. Well he is a Texas legend... just not an official one.
and if that is so... good for bringing him up.
texan279
Hall of Fame
TwinSisters said:
This kind of hits on the point I am trying to make. Plummer may have been "ranked" that season, but the other QB's in the league might not have been so great. Plummer put up 2 medicore seasons, then 2 horrible seasons, Carr's first two seasons weren't good at all but he improved in seasons 3 and 4.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
TwinSisters said:
He is a Texas legend, nationwide he is a footnote in NFL history
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
TwinSisters said:
Nice anti-logic carried over from your other thread. Plummer was top 5 in 1998 (and top 10 in 2001) in passing attempts and completions not because of any great skill as would be displayed by a high completion percentage or ypa but because of a freakishly high number of passes--i.e. a coaching decision having zilch, nada to do with him.
texan279
Hall of Fame
infantrycak said:
To add to cak's post...here are Plummer's top 10 rankings since his rookie season...
Seasons among the league's top 10
Pass attempts: 1998-3, 2001-9, 2002-8, 2004-6
Completions: 1998-3, 2001-10, 2004-8
Passing yards: 1998-4, 2001-8, 2004-4
Passing TDs: 2004-7t (with the Broncos)
Adjusted yards per pass: 2001-10, 2003-6, 2005-6
TwinSisters
Veteran
texan279 said:
The thing is Plummer did not put up 2 mediocre seasons. He put up 1 good season, two off, 1 good season. Carr has rookie break, 1 off, 1 mediocre, and then 1 off. Nothing good. You can call 2004 good, but it was mediocre numbers in a 7-9 season where otheres have put up good numbers in 7-9 or worse seasons.
texan279
Hall of Fame
TwinSisters said:
Carr showed improved from season two to three and maintained that improvement in season four. Plummer's play digressed from season two to season three and four. Plummer never really did anything outstanding until he went to Denver. I don't care where Plummer was ranked comared to other QB's. What we were originally disussing got thrown off track. My original point is this. TK said Plummer "earned a pass to year six" and you agreed, because of his play, and going by this logic would mean Carr would get a pass to at least year 6 if a guy whose play digresses after season two gets a "pass" to year 6 while Carr improved after season two.
TwinSisters
Veteran
infantrycak said:
Sure. And then next you are going to say the short pass and 60% completion rate is great with record setting fumbles and sacks and 80 passer rating when the best are at 80-100.
TwinSisters
Veteran
texan279 said:
His rookie and first full starter season he was commanding comeback play. His team was in the playoffs while his defense was never ranked that high. He did not a lot of support around him. His coach was Caper's mentor.
Carr's improvements never gloss over anyone else. How did he maintain improvement from 3 to 4?
His play never shot above anyone. He digressed from 3 to 4 when his 1st and 2nd where not all that hot to begin with.
Plummer can earn it just on the playoff birth and 4th quarter comebacks without the stats.
TK_Gamer
Veteran
thunderkyss said:
no, he probably feels slightly better with flanigan in the middle, and probably a wait and see, hold my breath attitude waiting to see who will start at LT. but if the coaching/scheme stays even semi consistent, and the sacks go down to 2 or 3 per game instead of 5 or 6, he may gain enough confidence to let his natural talents take over.
TexansLucky13 said:
It means that the team needs consistency from the QB position--scoring a 1000 pts the first half and 0 the second half is not going to get you to the playoffs. Sure, those kind of #'s look good over the course of the year, but it also means we went from a winning team (4-3) to a losing one (3-6). We do want to win, right?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
TwinSisters said:
No I am not going to say anything Carr did was great--just that you look like exactly what you are--someone making absurd statements to prove a point like trying to assert being ranked top 3 in passing attempts/completions means something if it doesn't result in more efficient play.
PS--y'all can short pass BS about Carr all you want but Plummer's ypa were worse over the 1st 4 years than Carr's.
Record setting fumbles?--talk to Culpepper.
texan279
Hall of Fame
TwinSisters said:
He maintained improvement by keeping a completion percentage of 60% or more and throwing more TD's than INT's, that is just my opinion. And Carr has not had a lot of support, if any, around him in the last 4 seasons and our defense has been ranked dead last the last couple of seasons.
texan279
Hall of Fame
TwinSisters said:
Plummer didn't earn that playoff spot all by himself and as far as the comebacks, he had to be throwing to someone or handing the ball off to someone unless he ran the ball himself and threw it to himself every play. It irks me when people act as if QB's literally carry the entire team on their back or are supposed to.
TwinSisters
Veteran
texan279 said:
That's true... but then no one does it by themself. He held up his role and the cast around him wasn't that great. He stuck out on those teams.
TwinSisters
Veteran
infantrycak said:
There is nothing absurd about it. I can just tell you that Plummer was at the top of the league in 1998. But then there is nothing much else to talk about. Carr wasn't moving the ball to win. Plummer did.
Let's talk to Culpepper. He didn't make it to the cover of Madden because everyone thought his defense was stellar or his coach was the brightest guy around. His highs are high and his lows were not all that bad. 3 Pro Bowls can go a long way to offsetting fumbles and ints.
---
http://www.opengroup.com/sports/Jake_Plummer.shtml
That's what earned him the spot.
texan279
Hall of Fame
TwinSisters said:
Plummer was not at the top of the league in 98, he was #3 in pass attempts, #3 in completions, and #4 in passing yards, that doesn't make him a top tier QB. Steve Young, Dan Marino, Randall Cunningham, and Brett Favre were at the top of the league as far as QB's go in 1998. And I don't think making the cover of Madden or three pro bowls offset fumbles or INT's, being on the cover of Madden and making the pro bowl are personal accomplishments while fumbles and INT's affect the team.
TwinSisters
Veteran
texan279 said:
eh maybe, maybe not. He had a Pro Bowl WRer, his running game was ok. His defense was doing better then his offense at times. Most of those things will come out in the wash after this year though I suppose.
David Boston, Moore, Sanders is a big upgrade over Bradford, Gaffney, Johnson?
Shipp, Pittman over Davis?
The offensive line is going to get a hammer of the head in Carr's favour.
TwinSisters
Veteran
texan279 said:
OKAY so winning a playoff game in Green Bay in the dead of winter will. Pro Bowls are awarded to the better QBs ( not just fan input either ).
1998 Plummer is not a top tier QB?.... Marino was about out by 1998.
Young, Farve, Aikman was hurt, Cunnigham ( in line of 4 QBs ), Elway won it all. Chris Chandler. Testeverde. Plummer was on the level with these guys, if not a bit above or below.
texan279 said:
My logic was that watching him play, he played better than Carr. His stats didn't show it..... I didn't know if they did or didn't... he was on a bad team, I don't expect his stats to show anything special. I know from Watching him, he was special....... he had many fans, he was on a loosing team, but still showing up on sportscenter highlight reels..... If Tom Jackson hadn't started his "Jacked Up" segment, Carr wouldn't stand a chance of getting on Sports Center.
Jake didn't look like a rookie his 4th year. regardless what the stats say, he looked like a Good QB on a bad team..... not an avg QB on a bad team.
texan279 said:
through all the extra fumbles, and Ints these guys aquired, over the same time period, they threw more touchdowns, and their teams won more games........
I think that offsets pretty well. Who cares how effiecient you are, if you can't get in the red zone...... who cares if you go three and out after three completions?? & What difference does it make, if you throw an INT that is returned for a touchdown, or take a sack, and have to punt from your own endzone?? When you're giving them the ball on your 40, and your defense can't stop anyone??
texan279
Hall of Fame
TwinSisters said:
Has nothing to do with winning a playoff game. Favre led the league in passing yards, completions, and was 3rd in the NFL in passing TD's all in 98. Young was 4th in completions, 2nd in passing yards, and 1st in passing TD's in 98. Cunningham was 5th in passing yards, 2nd in passing TD's, and 2nd in yards per pass. Plummer was 3rd in completions, 4th in passing yards, and 3rd in pass attempts. You cannot honestly think Plummer was/is above the level of Young, Favre, Cunningham, or Aikman.
TwinSisters said:
Only because Carr is taking sacks, and Jake was making plays....