Carr Haters, Lets Make a deal

[NFLforher]

I believe the people who want change are more interested in the team and the play of said team. The pro Carr folks are way to personal with their feelings . Like Vinny said Carr's a great guy but that does'nt mean he gets a free pass . Aaron Glen was a great guy and look at him .

We're not asking for a free pass, just a decent line, some weapons and a little time to throw.

 

[thegr8fan]

I would think that, at this point, he expects to get slammed every time and acts accordingly.

and that 'acts accordingly' is why some of us want him on the bench. Being scared to play the game is a very good reason to sit down, just like Babin and P-Burnt did.

a decent line, some weapons and a little time to throw.

ok, the O-line is probably sub par for decent, but we have SOME weapons, Armstrong sitting on the bench is one, IMHO, and there are times when Carr does have enough time to throw, he chooses not to. Yet another reason to sit him down though if your argument is that the line can't protect him. Why get your million dollar golden boy killed at the end of a game when the score is 42-10? All of these are simply more arguments for sitting him down before he is injured. Come on 42-10 and he is still in there getting sack after sack, where is the logic in that?

All you Carr supporters want to tell me what he does, exactly, that makes you think he is such a good QB? I mean, I really want to know what you are seeing in his playing that makes you think he even has the potential to be a really good QB. What is it in Carr mechanics, throwing ability, decisions, timing, etc that makes you think he is a good QB? I really want to know this, so please enlighten me. And just for the record, I am not being sarcastic on this one. I am actually very curios what it is that I am missing with his playing that makes others think he is such a great QB.

 

[edo783]

All you Carr supporters want to tell me what he does, exactly, that makes you think he is such a good QB? I mean, I really want to know what you are seeing in his playing that makes you think he even has the potential to be a really good QB. What is it in Carr mechanics, throwing ability, decisions, timing, etc that makes you think he is a good QB? I really want to know this, so please enlighten me. And just for the record, I am not being sarcastic on this one. I am actually very curios what it is that I am missing with his playing that makes others think he is such a great QB.

I am not sure they think he is CURRENTLY a great QB, but rather had the POTENTIAL to have been one and are defending his potential that has very likely been beat out of him. One of the worst cases of QB management I have ever seen. Could he have been a good QB....yes, and may still have the POSSIBILITY of being a good one. Could he have been a great on.....probably not, but having been beaten down for nearly 4 years will make it impossible to know that IMO, no matter what the quality of team he may wind up whith either here or elswhere. He has been totally mis-managed regarding his playing time and what they have given him to work with (o-line) not to mention that he has not been worked with effectivly to grow his talent.

 

[thegr8fan]

I am not sure they think he is CURRENTLY a great QB, but rather had the POTENTIAL to have been one

ok, so what is it exactly that makes someone think that he has the Potential to be a very good QB? What does he do that makes you go hmmmm. What does Carr do that makes anyone support him?

as for potential, heck every player drafted has the POTENTIAL to be the next superstar, NFL Hall of Fame player. Anyone of them.

 

[thegr8fan]

ok, so what is it exactly that makes someone think that he has the Potential to be a very good QB? What does he do that makes you go hmmmm. What does Carr do that makes anyone support him?

I noticed that, per your usual format, you chose to try and change the subject instead of answering the question The Great One. Why is it that when you ask a David Carr supporter to please defend their position with some credible thoughts and realistic analysis, they can't seem to do so.

and I am not going to argue semantics with you on the word potential. They got drafted and on draft day the team that took them thought they had the POTENTIAL to become something great, otherwise they wouldn't have drafted them. Perhaps in later years they proved that to be a fallacy, but on draft day they had the exact same potential as everyone else to become a Hall of Famer.

 

[Napa Auto Parts]

I noticed that, per your usual format, you chose to try and change the subject instead of answering the question The Great One. Why is it that when you ask a David Carr supporter to please defend their position with some credible thoughts and realistic analysis, they can't seem to do so.

and I am not going to argue semantics with you on the word potential. They got drafted and on draft day the team that took them thought they had the POTENTIAL to become something great, otherwise they wouldn't have drafted them. Perhaps in later years they proved that to be a fallacy, but on draft day they had the exact same potential as everyone else to become a Hall of Famer.

Yeah Casserly has and eye for Qb's just ask Heath Shuler

 

[thegr8fan]

so if he is so mobile, why is the sack count so high? When someone says VERY mobile, I think Vick. Is Carr able to run better than most starting QB's in the NFL, yeah, I'll say he is. But he has to be as his pocket presence is non-existant, IMHO. I think one of his detriments is he relies to heavily on his running ability and not enough on his pocket awareness.

let me say, I think that Carr has alot of physical attibutes that you listed and would agree with them. If his only positives are the ones you listed above though, he isn't even an average QB in the NFL then, IMHO.

 

[beerlover]

While I'm not happy with the Texans current state of affairs I believe the Texans will & should extend Carr. at least it should provide a capable QB to transistion the next franchise QB be it Leinart or whoever.

I also feel there are many different approaches to building a team, but I hate trading draft picks for reclamation players or multiple picks for a stater caliber player. We should be patient but what Casserly has executed is anything but patient, he has mortgaged the future for the now based upon incorrect data or evaulation leaving the Texans with gapping holes and a firefighting backfilling mentality.

Capers is just a follower, a good soldier not the brains behind the trust, now the trust must find a brain, but to blame Carr is deplorable & short sighted.

 

[infantrycak]

so if he is so mobile, why is the sack count so high? When someone says VERY mobile, I think Vick. Is Carr able to run better than most starting QB's in the NFL, yeah, I'll say he is. But he has to be as his pocket presence is non-existant, IMHO. I think one of his detriments is he relies to heavily on his running ability and not enough on his pocket awareness.

What you are saying about pocket presence and relying on running ability are true at this point, but they apply equally to Vick. Vick is horrible in pocket presence and staying in the pocket, horrid at making reads down field, holds onto the ball too long and takes off running too much. Despite all his mobility, he took sacks at a much higher rate than Carr last year. By the way, Carr actually has a higher yards per rushing attempt and higher % of 1st downs when he runs than Vick this year. The point to all that being, if anything, running QB's get sacked as much or more and Vick gets a free ride on being a cruddy QB because he gets 5 highlight reel runs a year.

 

[GP]

"...good touch on deep passes" -- The Great One

--------------------

Uh.....no.

He HAD great touches on deep passes.

"...Unfortunately, without AJ in the game we just don't have a chance to lob it up there and let him make a great catch."

Remember that?

 

[Kaiser Toro]

It is a FACT that he has good touch on his deep ball WHEN he has time to throw.

Can you please provide your methodology on this fact?

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Carr's best pass is when he can drill a 15 yd curl . The jury is still out on everything else.

 

[Vinny]

Just answer me this, if was Carr drafted by the Steelers or somebody like that, comming out of college, do you think that his "play" would be better?

I don't know, I'm don't have skills to see what is just imagination. I've seen you dog players who you don't think play well, and don't tell me you don't. The QB is not immune to fans not liking what they see.

It is the people around you that make you what you are

What, you mean Ryan Leaf wasn't a bust? No other QB could have done better in San Diego?

The people around me make me who I am my Lord, Wife, Children, if I did not have them in my life I could not go out and perform to the best of my ability.

Sounds nice in theory but this is a game of action and accountability. I don't think Carr plays up to his pick. I don't think most of our linemen play up to their salary either...but unlike you I think we have multiple problems including the QB.

So untill Carr can get some players around him he deserves every benefit of the doubt right now. If we get him these guys and he sucks I can accept that and I am sure he will as well.

Carr has to play better for this fan to give him a break. That's just how it is.

 

[eriadoc]

I would probably be pigeonholed into the "Carr Supporter" camp, I suppose, so I'll give my take on it. First of all, this is not a black and white issue. I do not support Carr for the sake of supporting Carr. In fact, if it could be demonstrated that Carr would do as poorly on a decent team and another QB could do well behind our team, I say change QBs. Unfortunately, I firmly believe that there is not a quarterback on this planet that would have found any more success from 2002-present with this team, as it has been comprised. Given that, I just don't see how changing the QB is really going to solve anything. So many people like to single out Carr for all our problems, or even our biggest problem. I can think of at least two major issues that need to be addressed before you can even begin to make a fair evaluation of either the QB or the WRs.

First, the coaching staff. It's obvious that this staff is not getting maximum productivity out of the players we have. We may not have Pro-Bowl caliber players, but we have better talent than the production would indicate. Good teams get good production from less-than-premium talent. We don't. Furthermore, this coaching staff does not play to their personnel's strengths. The coaches' jobs are to put our players in the best position to succeed and I don't see that happening.

Second, the offensive line needs work. We need a left tackle. Whether that is accomplished by drafting, free agency, or coaching Pitts or Wand, it's not been accomplished since this team's inception. Anything that's an issue for that long needs to be addressed. We've drafted three(?) offensive linemen since the team's inception - Pitts, Wand, and Hodgdon. When ESPN makes a commercial about your O-line, you might want to think about grabbing a few more guys in the draft and working on developing a few.

Some on this board would even argue that a third issue ahead of Carr would be Casserly. There are valid arguments for that, as well. The bottom line is Carr has not been put in a position to succeed to this point. I don't know that he ever will succeed and I am not advocating keeping him around because he's our golden boy or anything like that. In fact, in other threads, I have stated that we should rework his deal to keep him around for less money. I don't think he's worth the contract we've paid, but I don't want to draft someone and ruin them as well. Keep Carr, draft a QB in '07, and fix the line in '06. Carr still has the potential to be a good QB and if the line and scheme are fixed in '06 and he doesn't produce, then at least you've set yourself up for not ruining a QB in '07.

One final thought - please stop with the inane argument that when Carr gets time, he doesn't throw the ball. Better yet, if you're in the stadium, go to one of the end zones on the mezzanine level and watch the plays develop. There are no receivers open most of the time. This scheme is seriously gimped and you can't see it on TV. Carr does plenty wrong without muddling the issue with false observations.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Have you ever played on a team ... maybe baseball that when a certain players up with bases loaded and two outs , his teammates start looking for their gloves . This player never gets taken out even though he does 'nt come through ... except for walks ( running for a 1st instead of throwing ) .

I bet the OL would give a better effort with a new QB .

 

[Kaiser Toro]

In the word of the Guiness guys, "Brilliant!!"

Yeah, they are drunk. Every things looks brilliant when you have Carr, errrr, Guiness colored glasses.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Point is their not rallying behind the QB . If they think he does 'nt give them a shot to win then this is human nature ... but yes you get rid of those types .

 

[Kaiser Toro]

I would probably be pigeonholed into the "Carr Supporter" camp, I suppose, so I'll give my take on it. First of all, this is not a black and white issue. I do not support Carr for the sake of supporting Carr. In fact, if it could be demonstrated that Carr would do as poorly on a decent team and another QB could do well behind our team, I say change QBs. Unfortunately, I firmly believe that there is not a quarterback on this planet that would have found any more success from 2002-present with this team, as it has been comprised. Given that, I just don't see how changing the QB is really going to solve anything. So many people like to single out Carr for all our problems, or even our biggest problem. I can think of at least two major issues that need to be addressed before you can even begin to make a fair evaluation of either the QB or the WRs.

First, the coaching staff. It's obvious that this staff is not getting maximum productivity out of the players we have. We may not have Pro-Bowl caliber players, but we have better talent than the production would indicate. Good teams get good production from less-than-premium talent. We don't. Furthermore, this coaching staff does not play to their personnel's strengths. The coaches' jobs are to put our players in the best position to succeed and I don't see that happening.

Second, the offensive line needs work. We need a left tackle. Whether that is accomplished by drafting, free agency, or coaching Pitts or Wand, it's not been accomplished since this team's inception. Anything that's an issue for that long needs to be addressed. We've drafted three(?) offensive linemen since the team's inception - Pitts, Wand, and Hodgdon. When ESPN makes a commercial about your O-line, you might want to think about grabbing a few more guys in the draft and working on developing a few.

Some on this board would even argue that a third issue ahead of Carr would be Casserly. There are valid arguments for that, as well. The bottom line is Carr has not been put in a position to succeed to this point. I don't know that he ever will succeed and I am not advocating keeping him around because he's our golden boy or anything like that. In fact, in other threads, I have stated that we should rework his deal to keep him around for less money. I don't think he's worth the contract we've paid, but I don't want to draft someone and ruin them as well. Keep Carr, draft a QB in '07, and fix the line in '06. Carr still has the potential to be a good QB and if the line and scheme are fixed in '06 and he doesn't produce, then at least you've set yourself up for not ruining a QB in '07.

One final thought - please stop with the inane argument that when Carr gets time, he doesn't throw the ball. Better yet, if you're in the stadium, go to one of the end zones on the mezzanine level and watch the plays develop. There are no receivers open most of the time. This scheme is seriously gimped and you can't see it on TV. Carr does plenty wrong without muddling the issue with false observations.

Good post. All valid points and agree with you about 95% of the way.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Ozzie Guillen said he got rid of a dozen players like that . That it did'nt matter much they won or lost... if they did well theirselves .

 

[Kaiser Toro]

You see, I know it is complicated, but I actually used my eyes.

Well under that methodology I may have you because I used my eyes as well and have 20/10 vision. Moreover, I do put myself through the torture of watching the games again.

So you can see how it is complicated to me as how your methodolgy is simply you watching the game once with your 20/20 vision.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

If I worked for Vinny and I was doing something that maybe I was'nt capable of ... no matter how hard I tried I would expect to get canned .

 

[Kaiser Toro]

To see a well thrown ball you don't need 20/10 vision, nor do you need to see it more than once. I do; however, watch the games twice myself. So I know it makes it even more complicated for you!!

Well, we have hit an impasse. At least I am sure that we will both be rooting for our Texans this Sunday.

 

[aj.]

I wish I knew what the relationship is like between Carr and his o-linemen. From what I've heard they spend little time together off the field - which isn't all that uncommon these days but there needs to be some bonding there somehow somewhere. I've seen Carr scream those guys down during games many times and part of the problem may be a serious lack of cohesiveness/togetherness among them. The working assumption for many of you is that the o-line blows because they have no talent and that "if Carr had time..." Well, it may not only be below average talent on the OL. There's probably flawed elements of system, talent, chemistry, and QB all working together to create this mess. There's also an element of prima donna in Carr that I've always sensed (moreso than most QBs), that when combined with the perception that it's all the OL's fault, may really be creating animosity between the OL and QB that none of us are aware of.

Line problems or no line problems, Carr hasn't played well enough to earn an extension but at the same time I would like to see him operate a different system - so I wouldn't be totally opposed to the two year extension vs. the three.

There's an OL out there that we saw very recently, and the starters consist of one 1st rounder, one 4th rounder, one 5th rounder, and two undrafted free agents. There's not one Pro Bowler among them but they have adequate talent, a few very good to great skill players around them, and are in a system that seems to optimize the talent they have. They will probably be in the Super Bowl.

 

[GP]

You don't know what the relationship is like between Carr and the OL?

Granted, I only see what the cameras show...

But it pretty much looks like Carr and the OL have zero relationship.

He manned up and patted McKinney on the rear on ESPN the other night against the Seahawks. But hey, what else are you going to do when nothing is working? And, you're on national TV. And, you have a reputation for being a class guy?

They just ALL look confused and ready for the season to end. I know I am.

Forget Carr and the OL right now. The thing that has me worried is this team's ownership, management, and coaching departments. As long as this group continues to pass the buck around, instead of getting things done that they promise to get done, it doesn't matter if we have David Carr or Jim Caviezel (the dude who played Jesus in Mel Gibson's movie) as QB...

:brickwall

 

[mean mark8]

Buffalo thought Losman gave them their best chance to win too...until he stunk it up. They were smart enough to change quarterbacks and give him some competition. Losman now knows he can't play unless he plays well. Carr doesn't know this feeling.

Good statement. Carr has never had any competition for his position. I believe the only other positions for the Texans where they have never had any competition are K. Brown and Stanley. The San Diego Chargers have a number one pick, almost overall if you figure the screwy way he got there, who is riding the pine. There was actual competition for the QB position and the high paid draft choice lost out because he held out. IMO, I would like to see what Carr would get as an offer in free agency if there's someway we could let him go with the contingency we could match. I think the Chargers may be looking at offers for Rivers now that Brees has shown he was not a one year wonder. I would expect that other teams may be more inclined to go for Rivers because he hasn't shown anything in the NFL, while Carr may look like a beat up QB who holds the ball too long -- right or wrong. I think this would be a way to see what the rest of the league thinks anyway.

 

[aj.]

You don't know what the relationship is like between Carr and the OL?

No, I don't. I only see what the cameras show, what I see on the field and what I see on the sideline when the defense is on the field. I don't know any of these guys well enough to talk to them about it - but I do know a few members of the media who spend a lot of time around these guys - hence my musing and speculation.

Forget Carr and the OL right now. The thing that has me worried is this team's ownership, management, and coaching departments.

This was a Carr thread so I posted my thoughts about him here. I'm sure there are other threads about coaching and management to talk about those other things.

 

[keyfro]

the main thing to keep in mind here is that the texan organization has not put david carr in a position to succeed...the offensive line has been pathetic at best...recievers have been a huge question mark...what's a tight end?...and the running game that is supposedly a QB's best friend only helps carr if the other intagables are there.

if you judge carr on what he's been able to do in this system try and think what a less mobile qb would have been able to do like payton manning...i think you'd see manning yelling and throwing his helmet just like carr

now i say we need to give carr the tools in order to succeed...give hiim an o-line that gives him 3-4 seconds to pass the ball...give him a group of recievers that run the right routes and catch the ball...a TIGHT END who can block and catch...and the best thing is a lot of this can be found in this year's draft

draft ferguson, jeff king, and other lineman
sign a FA reciever who has big play ability or who atleast will draw the double team away from andre...IE IF WE HAD SIGNED PLEX WE WOULDN'T BE TALKING ABOUT THIS...sorry had to get that out

 

[NFLforher]

and that 'acts accordingly' is why some of us want him on the bench. Being scared to play the game is a very good reason to sit down, just like Babin and P-Burnt did.

ok, the O-line is probably sub par for decent, but we have SOME weapons, Armstrong sitting on the bench is one, IMHO, and there are times when Carr does have enough time to throw, he chooses not to. Yet another reason to sit him down though if your argument is that the line can't protect him. Why get your million dollar golden boy killed at the end of a game when the score is 42-10? All of these are simply more arguments for sitting him down before he is injured. Come on 42-10 and he is still in there getting sack after sack, where is the logic in that?

All you Carr supporters want to tell me what he does, exactly, that makes you think he is such a good QB? I mean, I really want to know what you are seeing in his playing that makes you think he even has the potential to be a really good QB. What is it in Carr mechanics, throwing ability, decisions, timing, etc that makes you think he is a good QB? I really want to know this, so please enlighten me. And just for the record, I am not being sarcastic on this one. I am actually very curios what it is that I am missing with his playing that makes others think he is such a great QB.

I watched him play in college.

 

[aj.]

I watched him (Carr) play in college.

I watched Andre Ware in college. What's the point?

if you judge carr on what he's been able to do in this system try and think what a less mobile qb would have been able to do like payton manning...i think you'd see manning yelling and throwing his helmet just like carr...

Likewise, if you dropped the Colts o-line in here under this offensive braintrust, Carr would probably be screaming them down too.

 

[Double Barrel]

now i say we need to give carr the tools in order to succeed...give hiim an o-line that gives him 3-4 seconds to pass the ball...give him a group of recievers that run the right routes and catch the ball...a TIGHT END who can block and catch...and the best thing is a lot of this can be found in this year's draft

Give Trent Dilfer those things and a good defense and he'll win a Superbowl for you.

The point being, even a mediocre QB can succeed with a great team around him. But truly great QBs can be successful at times with marginal talent around them (ie. Dan Marino - never had a good RB, etc.)

I'm not calling out Carr, but he's got to make due with what he's got....if he's capable of doing so.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Dilfer had a great Defense not good . Banks started out as the QB and did not get an offensive TD for 5 games then Dilfer took over .

Yeah I know thats why I vote for Ragone .

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

They also had Jammal Lewis who before his prison time was a very good running back . I can only remember Ogden from the OL but he was topshelf .

 

[Kaiser Toro]

I agree about the Ravens. The Ravens had a GREAT defense and a QB that didn't make mistakes. The offense was VERY conservative. That is how they won the SB.

This is what I have been talking about. The Ravens were spending their money on Defense and had a top back and LT. When you do not have your highest paid player at QB you have the ability to spread the cash around.

Not having a high priced QB has been a indirect recipe for success in the last decade for Super Bowl Champions. That is, until Payton wins one.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

The Texans went the Young , Bosselli , McKinney route . They then drafted Pitts . If it was a perfect world we might have had a good OL .

 

[eriadoc]

The Texans went the Young , Bosselli , McKinney route . They then drafted Pitts . If it was a perfect world we might have had a good OL .

Good point. I don't fault the Texans for their initial steps with the O-line; I fault them for their ineptness since. Poor coaching is mostly to blame, from reshuffling constantly to changing schemes to technique. They did go out and acquire Todd Wade, who is a good run blocker, but for whatever reason, has not been a good pass blocker. I am not familiar with his body of work in MIA, so I can't say whether he was a good pass blocker in MIA or not. They've drafted three linemen in four years, when that unit has clearly been the #1 issue on the team. Ragone and Hollings come to mind as wasted picks, and I'm sure I'm forgetting at least one or two others (I don't count Joppru as wasted, because we needed a TE, even if he has been a medical basket case). They should have drafted at least a couple more linemen to this point and developed them. Of course, then we're back to that whole coaching thing.

 

[College Texan]

Alot of the problem is that there is no sure starters and this is confusing the players, really, who's our te, who is our #2, who's the starting o-line, starting linebackers, 2nd corner? If I was a player how would I tell my family I'm the third or second WR or linebakcer.....and so forth. This is why we see so much rotation and this is confusing the crap out of me.

 

[Double Barrel]

He never had to, he threw the ball 40+ times a game and he did not get as much preasure on him as much as Carr has.

That Mediocre QB you talk about has a SuperBowl Ring, that is not mediocre. I still say he should be the QB of the Baltimore Ravens.

"At Times", you said. Carr has looked great at times, Kansas City comeback, Vikings game, Raiders game, All the times he played the Jags, THE COWBOY GAME.

No doubt about it, Hulk. I'm not a "Carr hater" or even basher. I think he's got great potential (or had before it was beat out of him...hopefully it's still there if/when the Texans front office puts together a solid OL).

My initial reply was a response to keyfro's assertion that he needs all these great things around him to be successful. I think he just needs a consistent pass protection to be successful, even with mediocre TEs and #2/3 WRs. It all starts with the line, IMO.

I'll never take away the great games that DC has had, which is why I still have the opinion that he's got a lot of potential. But, in those games, we had solid defenses, which were basically stripped of leadership in the off-season and replaced with talent that has yet to prove itself.

I'd rather have a team that has a dominant D with an offense that is solid and doesn't lose games. The old saying "defense wins championships" is true, which is why a medicre QB like Dilfer has a championship ring.

 

[welsh texan]

The problem with paying a guy 60 million dollars is he needs to be productive. How long do we wait to see if he ever gets it? He keeps us from signing other good players due to him crowding a large part of the salary cap. He has more starts than Bulger, Pennington and Brees...We can't wait another 50 starts for him to come up to speed.

do you really pay him $60 million?

how can they make money from paying that kind of money to 40-50 players?

thats jus ridiculous money, the best soccer players earn about £5 million a year, and people like David Bekham are better at what they do than Carr is at what he does, its amazing

 

[Double Barrel]

the best soccer players earn about £5 million a year, and people like David Bekham are better at what they do than Carr is at what he does, its amazing

Because the biggest sports market in the world (U.S.) could give a rat's **** about soccer.

Just the way it is.

 

[edo783]

do you really pay him $60 million?

how can they make money from paying that kind of money to 40-50 players?

thats jus ridiculous money, the best soccer players earn about £5 million a year, and people like David Bekham are better at what they do than Carr is at what he does, its amazing

It's 60 million over ~7 years, sooo the Soccer guys make more at 5 Million pounds a year (~9 million dollars). Still a LOT of cash any way you slice it.