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Carr Facts...

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LCROD said:
Here's a better question, why isnt your #1 WR running a deep route on that play? Everyone is fixating on the "improper" read, I'm wondering why AJ wasnt running Bradfords route.
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Becasue that would have eliminated a throw to AJ, you know the Jags would have immediatley doubled him if he went deep.
 
DRAMA said:
I understand that there were people 'around him' as there were people 'around' Bradford - two of them actually but you throw the ball to the spot not the player. When AJ turns and hooks by 1 yard after running full speed, that guy's beat. Granted, it's only by a couple of steps but he's beat and is not in the play as considered by a QB making a 'read' on a pass. Otherwise, no one would ever be open because someone is always within 5 yards of the WR. But as an old QB, (Emphasis on QB not old), seeing my WR running the right route, that Safety can in no way make a play on that. IMO, he's in no shape to make a play. At the point he's riding him, the defender has no idea the little curl's coming. He's there and then he's not.

The pass to CB was a helluva pass and this post does not mean drop Carr. I want Carr to have an OL and then have judgement passed. My contention is that mistakes are the culprit and we see Bradford as the mistake on this play when I see it being Carr. Again, it's not personal against DC. I want DC to show he can 'read' - I want that but it's hard for him to do anything when a great game still contains 6 sacks.

More than anything I just want some change and a new direction. However, I still think Carr can lead that change.
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But if a linebacker plays zone and covers AJ when carr looks at him, he cant assume AJ is going to come open later and not follow thorugh his progression. Its 4th down, he cant lock on to one guy becasue the other reciver has no hands. Not Carr's fault that he is on the field. 4th and long in the last minute of the game, you cant wait for your favorite target to maybe be open, esspecially when you have a reciver on the outside who jsut beat his corner:brickwall
 
TheOgre said:
Bottom line is that no matter how perfect that pass was, it is still a low completion percentage pass. On 4th down, your job as QB is to keep the drive alive. Why attempt a pass into double-coverage that is a 1 in 3 shot AT BEST? Throw in the fact that it was to Bradford, and it truly begs the question. Meanwhile you have some shorter options that have a much higher chance of keeping the drive alive to give the team a chance to win. Basically Carr struck out swinging when he only needed a single to keep the rally going.
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No pass that hits a wide reciver in the hands is a low % pass
 
DRAMA said:
Bashing who? Bradford? Seriously? This franchise has to live up to the expectations of this city. Me being a Houstonian gives me the right to expect more from a team that I help subsidize. A BBS is instilled to allow just that - the expression of my opinion based on my knowledge of the topic. I simply do not think that Bradford is better than Armstrong, Gaffney or AJ...or even Mathis from what I've seen really. I don't think Bradford catches 50% of his balls that are 10 yard curls? So to say that he MAY catch 20% of the BOMBS is unrealistic? Not so much...
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Thats going over the top. He has crappy hands, but only to where he has 1-2 drops per game. The cleaveland game was terriblle and he had 2 drops. I guarantee that Bradford catches that pass well over 50% of the time, otherwise he would not have made it through college. Remeber, he is the "deep threat", meaning he is used to catching those types of ball, even more reason to throw it to him.
 
Porky said:
I completely agree with Drama on virtually all of his points, sans the "we have the same talent" theory.

On 4th and 12 and a minute left, unless a guy, any guy, is WIDE open, you don't go for the home run. That's Jr. High stuff there. Anyone will tell you that. Your job there is to get the first down. Drama said it very well in his first post. Mistakes by the WR, QB, and coaching staff led to that particular play not being made at that moment. IF Bradford catches it and scores, of course I like the outcome, but I still wouldn't have liked the decision. Terrible decision by Carr. Dumb players like Carr and Bradford are bringing the entire football IQ of our city into negative numbers. It's hard to believe we are even having to debate this. This goes right into the "no brainer" catagory.
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If bradford had caught the ball you would be hailling carr as the next coming of tom brady, leading his team downfield for a late TD. this WHOLE THING IS BRADFORD'S FAULT, keept the guy who makes a perfect pass, scratch that, about 5 perfect passes in the last 3 minutes of a game with all the pressure on out of your argument. he has enough problems, that last play was not one of them:penalty:
 
Runner said:
5 out of 10 - that's the number I used! I think it's a little conservative though. Anyway...

... I think the comparison of Moss to Bradford would result in.....no comparison at all. I think he chose Moss not because he had similar ability to Bradford, but to show that even the highly skilled receivers have their misses.
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i know. i would just like to see the numbers. or actually i would rather find out where he is getting those numbers. i havent found a site that would give you in depth stats like those.
 
markbeth said:
i know. i would just like to see the numbers. or actually i would rather find out where he is getting those numbers. i havent found a site that would give you in depth stats like those.
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Stats, Inc. keeps track of drops and reasons for QB incompletions among a lot of other stats such as sacks allowed and penalties for OLmen. I would caution you that it seems like they are inconsistant in how quickly they update the information and it will some times change for up to 6 weeks after the game even if it says the game is included 2 days later (I think they get the info on easy stuff like yards and receptions quickly but for things like drops where they have multiple people review game film it takes a while). In other words for looking at things like drop rates, you are better off going to last season overall than trying to look at last week--plus the larger sample size will give a better picture in that case.
 
TheOgre said:
Bottom line is that no matter how perfect that pass was, it is still a low completion percentage pass. On 4th down, your job as QB is to keep the drive alive. Why attempt a pass into double-coverage that is a 1 in 3 shot AT BEST? Throw in the fact that it was to Bradford, and it truly begs the question. Meanwhile you have some shorter options that have a much higher chance of keeping the drive alive to give the team a chance to win. Basically Carr struck out swinging when he only needed a single to keep the rally going.
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No, Carr threw a third strike but the catcher dropped the pitch and the runner ran to first safely while the winning run scored from third base: PB!
 
The real blame falls on the coaching staff. This deep into the 4th season, they still have Corey Bradford starting at Wr. Gaffney and Armstrong both would have made that catch and many much more difficult catches. In my opinion they should be on the field 90% of the time and Bradford should be on another team.
 
dalemurphy said:
The real blame falls on the coaching staff. This deep into the 4th season, they still have Corey Bradford starting at Wr. Gaffney and Armstrong both would have made that catch and many much more difficult catches. In my opinion they should be on the field 90% of the time and Bradford should be on another team.
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Agreed, we should have kept one of the other young receivers like Kasper or Starling - assign your own name.
 
run-david-run said:
No pass that hits a wide reciver in the hands is a low % pass
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This may be news to you, but when Carr made the decision to throw it, neither he, nor you (unless your name is God) knew the ball was going to hit him in the hands. Throwing the deep ball to the man with the worst hands on the team is a higher % pass than throwing it shorter to a much better WR is? Good logic there. Good job, Captain obvious.
 
Porky said:
Throwing the deep ball to the man with the worst hands on the team is a higher % pass than throwing it shorter to a much better WR is?
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This is absolutely true if the end goal is completing 1 pass. However, in this case the goal was to eventually score a touchdown. With this team 30 yards in 30 seconds is not the sure thing people are assuming.
 
Runner said:
This is absolutley true if the end goal is completing 1 pass. However, in this case the goal was to eventually score a touchdown. With this team 30 yards in 30 seconds is not the sure thing people are assuming.
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At that moment, the only job is to get a 1st down. It's either get a first down or game over. Those were the two choices. People act like this was the first qtr. So, I suppose your contention is that the percentages were higher to go for it all with a lower % play, than to get the first down, and play on. Hmmm, interesting logic there.
 
Porky said:
At that moment, the only job is to get a 1st down. It's either get a first down or game over. Those were the two choices. People act like this was the first qtr. So, I suppose your contention is that the percentages were higher to go for it all with a lower % play, than to get the first down, and play on. Hmmm, interesting logic there.
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I thought the job was to win the game. Interesting logic there.

Hmmmmm - saying "interesting logic" doesn't add anything to my post either.


In the end, I would have been happy with either pass. The reason I don't condemn the long one is it shows a spark the teram has been missing. Cheers.
 
Wow, just wow.

I'm no Carr apologist, however I will take his defense on this one play because I don't think he is at fault for this one. There are alot of things that some of you are not taking into consideration. First of all the pass was not thrown into double coverage. The safety never got within 5 yards of Bradford, and he had no effect on the outcome of the play what so ever. If Carr would have thrown to Johnson, and AJ had dropped, everyone would be questioning why he threw to AJ when Bradford was wide open down the sideline. NObody on this board knows what Carr's read progessions were. Also, there's no guarantee that Johnson would have made the catch either. So here's the part where all the long pass/short pass, 1st down/4th down, Bradford's hands/Johnson's hands, and field position & time remaining comparisons come flying out from every corner. Look, Carr has 2, maybe 2.5 seconds in the pocket to make a throw. Do you think he has time to drop back and think, ''Hmm, let's see. AJ at the 30 or Corey inside the 10? Well, let's see it is 4th down....'' Carr saw an open man and threw to him, simple as that. He threw a perfect pass to an open reciever, Bradford dropped it.Really we've had all week to break down a decision that Carr had to make in 3 seconds. Give the guy a break for once. Carr deserves some criticism for his play at times, but I don't think that play was one of those times. The armchair QBs are goin overboard on this one. All IMO, of course.
 
infantrycak said:
Stats, Inc. keeps track of drops and reasons for QB incompletions among a lot of other stats such as sacks allowed and penalties for OLmen. I would caution you that it seems like they are inconsistant in how quickly they update the information and it will some times change for up to 6 weeks after the game even if it says the game is included 2 days later (I think they get the info on easy stuff like yards and receptions quickly but for things like drops where they have multiple people review game film it takes a while). In other words for looking at things like drop rates, you are better off going to last season overall than trying to look at last week--plus the larger sample size will give a better picture in that case.
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they only have bradford for 2 drops this year. i know you said it might take a while for the stats to get up so i went back to the 2 years before this. and they have him for 4 drops combined in those 2 years. i dont know for a fact that this is wrong but it sure is suspicious.

im gonna keep an eye on what he does this year. how many drops would you say hes had this year. my guess is 6, could be more. next year we will know if we can trust these stats or not.
 
markbeth said:
no your wrong. this still hasnt been talked about enough.
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It's funny, because the only place that it's an issue is on these boards. Nobody on the radio, newspaper, etc. is saying anything about it at all.
 
Runner said:
This is absolutely true if the end goal is completing 1 pass. However, in this case the goal was to eventually score a touchdown. With this team 30 yards in 30 seconds is not the sure thing people are assuming.
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it was fourth down.....
 
RTP2110 said:
It's funny, because the only place that it's an issue is on these boards. Nobody on the radio, newspaper, etc. is saying anything about it at all.
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just joking dude!!!!
 
markbeth said:
they only have bradford for 2 drops this year. i know you said it might take a while for the stats to get up so i went back to the 2 years before this. and they have him for 4 drops combined in those 2 years. i dont know for a fact that this is wrong but it sure is suspicious.
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IMO the 4 in 2003-4 isn't off by much, but the important part is Stats, Inc. isn't some kind of Texans' hack organization. They supply stats to NFL.com, ESPN.com, etc. So as long as they have a consistant application of their standard for drops, then you can judge one WR against the field. There is an element of subjectivity to what is a catchable ball, but there is no reason to believe a national scope site like them is biased in Bradford's favor. If anything, I would guessed that as most things, the big names get benefit of the doubt over the no names.
 
RTP2110 said:
It's funny, because the only place that it's an issue is on these boards. Nobody on the radio, newspaper, etc. is saying anything about it at all.
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I think the :sarcasm: smilie was missing from markbeth's post (BTW, this has been discussed on the radio, and most of the radio guys I've heard think Carr made the correct decision).

I don't think this thread contains enough Carr "facts". Feel free to add on to my list:

Carr doesn't throw a good deep pass.
Carr doesn't throw a good short pass.
Carr doesn't challenge defenses.
Carr doesn't make good decisions.
Carr doesn't move well in the pocket.
Carr leaves the pocket too early.
Carr doesn't go through his progressions.
Carr checks down to Davis too often.
Carr only audibles to a run.
Carr isn't a leader.
Carr doesn't show enough emotion.
Carr is too emotional.
Carr doesn't throw the ball away enough.
Carr doesn't throws the ball away too much.
Carr is afraid of the rush.
Carr holds on to the ball too long.
Carr is a prima donna.
Carr takes too many unnecessary hits.
Carr locks on to his receivers.
Carr won't stay with his receiver long enough.
Carr doesn't have the mental capacity to play QB in the NFL.

But there's more -

Carr doesn't put the toilet seat down.
Carr doesn't lift the toilet seat.
Carr has halitosis.
Carr won't wash behind his ears.
Carr uses all the hot water.
Carr doesn't signal before he turns.
Carr has unmanageable hair.
Carr twirls his hair.
Carr spends too much time with his family.
Carr wears Yankees caps. 'Nuff said.
 
I dont care what nobody says (yeah thats a double negative and a gramatical error but i dont care)... and I mean nobody, as a QB your JOB is to get the ball to the receiver and trust him that if you make a good throw then he will make the play for you. And to answer all of the Aj questions, did you dumbys not see that he was tired, thats why he stopped on that TD pass he shoulda caught on 2nd down. Oh and what if Carr had thrown it to AJ and since AJ was tired he was to drop it? What would yall say then? I dont know why Carr threw it to AJ, it is easy to see that he was tired, oh and look at the replay, Bradford had 2 steps on the CB down the sideline, he woulda had a big play if he could just stop staring down his #1 read. I just think yall are gunna criticize DC no matter what. The only good thing about these stupid threads are that they get my post count up.
 
:brickwall The bottom line is every week we have a player step down to screw something up . This has allowed us to be one of the most consistent teams in the league at 1-7 .
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
it was fourth down.....
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I'll take a big play on 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th down. Punt return, kick-off return, fumble, intercept. Heck, I'd even like to win the coin flip going into overtime.
 
RTP2110 said:
It's funny, because the only place that it's an issue is on these boards. Nobody on the radio, newspaper, etc. is saying anything about it at all.
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That could be because our media throws NOTHING but softballs at Casserly and Capers. They have NOT ONCE been held to the fire - not once.

The media doesn't suprise me at all. I think we here in this group discuss things from better perspectives than the media does, IMHO!
 
bigTEXan8 said:
I think the media has to throw softballs because they need to stay tight with the teams.
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Yep - half the time they seem to be more PR flacks than reporters. The coaches/teams are definitely in the driver's seat in the relationship. They can easily cut off or just give canned cliché answers to reporters who don't "play ball".
 
I think this season has taken us all by surprise. Who would have thought that the Texans would sink to 1-7 by mid-term. The first year, yes. After the 7-9 last season, it is surreal. Don't worry, the media will be blasting Capers & Co. before this one is done.
 
mean mark8 said:
Here's the latest Rankings from FoxSports.com. It places blame on Carr, basically saying he's shell-shocked.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5065346
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From FO's Tim Gerheim: "David Carr is now unequivocally part of the problem and not part of the solution. He bails out of the pocket too soon, and he's incomprehensibly loath to throw the ball away in obvious throwaway situations. On one play, he started scrambling immediately after finishing his drop even though the protection was viable, and he ran to his left directly into the rush. He still throws very well, but his pocket presence is abominable."

Carr is starting to get the Joey Harrington-like criticism in the national media, and it can't come soon enough. It's amazing he got a pass for as long as he did.
 
the wonger need food said:
From FO's Tim Gerheim: "David Carr is now unequivocally part of the problem and not part of the solution. He bails out of the pocket too soon, and he's incomprehensibly loath to throw the ball away in obvious throwaway situations. On one play, he started scrambling immediately after finishing his drop even though the protection was viable, and he ran to his left directly into the rush. He still throws very well, but his pocket presence is abominable."

Carr is starting to get the Joey Harrington-like criticism in the national media, and it can't come soon enough. It's amazing he got a pass for as long as he did.
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Ahem, some of us have said the same exact things, but of course, we are just Carr bashers, with no idea of what we are talking about. :brickwall
 
Porky said:
Ahem, some of us have said the same exact things, but of course, we are just Carr bashers, with no idea of what we are talking about. :brickwall
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Well I am curious. Can you point to some plays where Carr's decision to hold onto the ball for too long affected the game adversely? There are several plays that have gone down as sacks with zero yards lost or one yard lost, but other than the stat, those don't affect the game any vs. throwing the ball out of bounds. Where are the plays where the game is adversely affected. If the only affect of a QB trying (and often succeeding) to make something happen with his feet is an adverse stat with no real game adverse effect, I am having a hard time seeing the trouble. Please explain to this brick wall.
 
infantrycak said:
Well I am curious. Can you point to some plays where Carr's decision to hold onto the ball for too long affected the game adversely? There are several plays that have gone down as sacks with zero yards lost or one yard lost, but other than the stat, those don't affect the game any vs. throwing the ball out of bounds. Where are the plays where the game is adversely affected. If the only affect of a QB trying (and often succeeding) to make something happen with his feet is an adverse stat with no real game adverse effect, I am having a hard time seeing the trouble. Please explain to this brick wall.
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It does matter because you are losing a yard in a game of inches, and you lower the morale of your team and give the other team momentum.
 
infantrycak said:
Well I am curious. Can you point to some plays where Carr's decision to hold onto the ball for too long affected the game adversely? There are several plays that have gone down as sacks with zero yards lost or one yard lost, but other than the stat, those don't affect the game any vs. throwing the ball out of bounds. Where are the plays where the game is adversely affected. If the only affect of a QB trying (and often succeeding) to make something happen with his feet is an adverse stat with no real game adverse effect, I am having a hard time seeing the trouble. Please explain to this brick wall.
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Read the quote again:

From FO's Tim Gerheim: "David Carr is now unequivocally part of the problem and not part of the solution. He bails out of the pocket too soon, and he's incomprehensibly loath to throw the ball away in obvious throwaway situations. On one play, he started scrambling immediately after finishing his drop even though the protection was viable, and he ran to his left directly into the rush. He still throws very well, but his pocket presence is abominable."
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Pretty much says the guy isn't looking to throw even when he has time. On top of that, he has time but runs into the pass rush. A quality QB steps-up into his protection or slides away from the rush. Our QB runs blindly into it. That is extremely detrimental to the team.
 
I always said the Texans should have gotten Julius Peppers and waited for a REAL franchise quaterback.
 
mean mark8 said:
Read the quote again:

Pretty much says the guy isn't looking to throw even when he has time. On top of that, he has time but runs into the pass rush. A quality QB steps-up into his protection or slides away from the rush. Our QB runs blindly into it. That is extremely detrimental to the team.
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Thanks for rehashing some internet hack (aka someone just like MB members here who decided to have a web site) for me.

Now go back and read what I asked for--any specific examples from the last 4 games that anything the guy said is true in any way that adversely affected the game. Running out of bounds at the LOS simply doesn't hurt the team even if it becomes an unnecessary sack stat. For example, going from 2nd and 5 to 3rd and 5 against Cleveland is the same thing as throwing the ball away--loss of a down, same field position. So other than generalizations which may or may not be true, where are the examples.
 
But wait there's more.....

Carr drinks straight from the milk carton
Carr puts the empty carton back in the fridge
Carr eats the big piece of chicken
Carr scratches himself when companys over
Carr burps
Carr farts

But wait there is even more.....

Its Carrs fault there is no piece in the middle east
Carr cant find binloden
Carr let korea develop nucular weapons
Carr is the reason why there is hunger in the world
Carr is the reason there is global warming
Carr is the reason A&M defense sucks
Carr is the reason our defense sucks

did I miss anything?

Ha.
 
infantrycak said:
Well I am curious. Can you point to some plays where Carr's decision to hold onto the ball for too long affected the game adversely? There are several plays that have gone down as sacks with zero yards lost or one yard lost, but other than the stat, those don't affect the game any vs. throwing the ball out of bounds. Where are the plays where the game is adversely affected. If the only affect of a QB trying (and often succeeding) to make something happen with his feet is an adverse stat with no real game adverse effect, I am having a hard time seeing the trouble. Please explain to this brick wall.
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I'm not only talking about holding the ball too long. He has zero pocket presense. Want an example? Okay, in the last set of downs on the last drive against Jax. I forget if it was 2nd or 3rd down. Carr drops back, and has plenty of time. Holds the ball, and his first read is apparently not open, (which is debatable in itself, as guys have to be wide open, or he won't throw to them) He starts to think about taking off running (there was still no real pressure on him, he has his usual happy feet) and he starts running to his right, looking like a panicked deer being chased by a hunter, which takes him right into two pass rushers, and he is sacked. I blame about half the sacks on Carr. A good QB would have stepped up into the pocket, thus avoiding the rushers (a novel approach) and found his 2nd or 3rd option. He simply has no awareness or presense in the pocket. On top of that, he has trouble reading defenses, finding 2nd or 3rd options, and seems wooden, scripted, and mechanical in the pocket and with his throwing motion. He isn't at all "instinctive", and the coaches trust him so much they even let him audible from a running play designed to go right, to one designed to go left. Maybe by his 10th season, they will let him feed himself, and change his own diapers too. His teammates think Zach Weigert is the team leader on offense, and even Steve Mckinney threw him under the bus on his weekly radio show.

But, no other than that, I think he is darn near perfect. :tomato:
 
Wooden, or surprised he has time? Why would Carr throw to someone that is covered?? I guess you want more interceptions because these WR's are not going to fight for ANY ball, much less make a play.
 
"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Houston: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to David Carr. You just rejected him from your city," Robertson said on the NFL version of the Broadcasting Network's "700 Club."

Eight families had sued Drama, Porky, Vinny, etc.., claiming Carr hatred violates the constitutional separation of objectivity and Texan bias. The local BBS trial concluded days before last Sunday's Jacksonville game, but no ruling had been issued.

Later Thursday, Robertson issued a statement saying he was simply trying to point out that "anti-Carr actions have consequences."

"David Carr is tolerant and loving and can throw the deep ball even though our receivers can't catch, but we can't keep sticking our finger in his eye forever," Robertson said. "If they have future problems in Houston, I recommend they call on Brady Quinn. Maybe he can help them."


Seriously, we should completely overhaul, and I mean COMPLETELY (Except for maybe Pitts) the OL and give David another year to see how he does with some protection. Let's open the offense and see where we go. By this time next year, we should know where we are....or not??
 
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