Just wanted to express some of my views about the whole Carr/Young thing that seems to be a part of every MB and will continue to be until draft day I suppose. I've said in the past that it doesn't really matter who we require (Young/Bush/D'brick) because any of the three will most likely become good if not great players to what ever franchise they go to. With that being said, I believe that many teams over the course of the NFL have tried to mold QB's with failing attemps in reaching the ultimate goal of winning the NFL CHAMPIONSHIP. While players like Hasselbeck, Delhomme, Gannon, O'Donnell, Humphries, and etc... have all reached the Super bowl, none have ever won it! These are all QB's that were out there to manage the game and play within a sytem. You can't compare these guys to the likes of Roethlisberger, Brady, Elway, Farve, Aikman and etc...who are natural leaders on and off the field. There's just something about these group of guys since the begining of their careers you just relized they had. The "IT" thing! All of these field generals took control of the game with such a poise that no other player could match. And if you were a teammate then your play, output , or success reached levels that were only drawn out by theses leaders who demanded nothing less. There are alot of things that you can teach in the game of football in all positions but the single most important intangilbe is leadership. I'm hoping that the Texans organization can fairly evaluate this lack of leadership in whatever phase of the game (offense/defense) and bring in or fix the most important concern that has been "that thorn in it's side". Leaders are always born and can never be created to be something they aren't. Real Recognize Real, and I believe that whatever G. Kubiak and the front office decide it will be a testament or direct reflection of the overall quality of just how this entire organization is being lead.
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Can A QB Really Be Molded?
- Thread starter WILLIEG
- Start date
Texan Asylum
Hall of Fame
I believe Kubiak's Real. He must recognize something in Carr if he's got that much confidence in him. Let's give the new regime a chance to show their smarts and then make an educated guess.
AustinJB
Rookie
WILLIEG said:
"Leaders are made, they are not born. They are made by hard effort, which is the price which all of us must pay to achieve any goal that is worthwhile."
-Vince Lombardi
"Leadership rests not only upon ability, not only upon capacity; having the capacity to lead is not enough. The leader must be willing to use it. His leadership is then based on truth and character. There must be truth in the purpose and will power in the character."
-Vince Lombardi
Just a few thoughts....while this was Lombardi's opinion and not necessarily gospel, I would think that he knows a little more about the issue than you or I.
chuckm
Veteran
AustinJB said:
While I know it would be best if Carr were thought of as the unquestioned leader of the Texans, I believe this leadership thing is a bit overblown. John McClain (aka VY's publicist) made the comment on Friday's 610 show, and I'm paraphrasing here, that Carr had the smarts, physical ability, toughness, but wasn't a leader and had never put the team on his back ....
ok fair enough but what 1 NFL player ever has?
if this were the NBA I'd say Jordan, Bird, Magic...
if it was the NHL, i'd say Gretzky, Patrick Roy, ...
if it was MLB then Barry Bonds, Orel Hershiser, ....
I believe that the Ravens from a few years back and the 85 Bears, ... defensive units "put the team on their backs" .... but 1 single player? Montana? Favre? ESmith? JBrown?
if there's one example of a QB "taking a team on his back" it's VY in the Rose Bowl and it still took a late defensive stand to make it possible ... NFL football is such a team-based entity that I can't get my mind around this argument ...
I would define a Winner as someone throughtout the history of his carrer has in some way gotten the job done and has a majorityof wins when compared to looses. Can a Winner loose and still be considered a winner? Sure ex: Farve and Elway. But can a Looser win and be considered a winner? No, ex; T. Dilfer, B. Johnson.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
chuckm said:
If you think in terms of salary cap it makes the conversation more palatable.
I will bet anyone a million virtual dollars that if Carr's contract is extended and we select Bush we will not win a playoff game in the next three years. You need fiscal balance to be play for a championship. This is not hate, this is the prospective state of the business.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I assume that you believe leadership is part of the package when your team picks someone 1st overall . If not then is that something you identify before you pick him ?
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
chuckm said:
You questioned one player making a difference and spoke to the NFL being a team game. I agree when you look at it from a fiscal standpoint.
Texan Asylum
Hall of Fame
Can we, just for argument's sake, assume the previous coaching staff might have something to do with the apparent lack of leadership qualities ANYONE might or might not have tried to assert over this team. If you can't coach God given natural talent, then how can you even begin to coach something as elusive as leadership skills. Leaders are made...although you have to have a desire to be in that capacilty. That should be figured out very shortly once the present staff has a chance to do an evaluation of not only physical but mental skills as well. IMHO
AustinJB
Rookie
chuckm said:
I think that you and others are reading too much into the "put the team on their backs" phrase...you're taking it too literally. For example, VY didn't win the RB completely by himself, but he was the MVP....he did "more" to help his team win than anyone else did. Hines Ward didn't win the Super Bowl by himself, but he was the MVP....HE did "more" to help his team win than anybody else. You take those two players away from their respective teams and more than likely, they would not have won. Of course this all objective.
Also, as far as the leadership and "it" factor is concerned, it has a lot to do w/ how the team and teammates respond to that one player...and to an extent the fans as well. The 49ers KNEW that if Montana had the ball in his hands when the game was on the line, he would come through for them...I dare say that the fans felt this way too. The same can be said for Favre (not this year of course), Aikman, etc. I realize that a lot of this is based upon their past accomplishments, but it is that leadership quality and aura about them that causes their teammates to have this confidence in them.
I realize that it was college and it doesn't necessarily translate to the NFL, but as a fan, I had this type of confidence in VY in the Rose Bowl. On the 4th and 2 play, I was worried. But the entire time I was saying over and over, "C'mon defense, just get a stop and get VY the ball b/c he WILL win the game for us...he will NOT let us lose." Again, while it doesn't always translate to the NFL, THAT is the kind of QB that I want.
Do you feel this way when Carr gets the ball when the game is on the line? "C'mon, if we can get the ball to Carr, he'll win it for us." I sure don't. With the way the rest of the team seems to perceive Carr, I dare say THEY don't have that confidence in him either. THAT is the issue. THAT is the leadership quality that people are talking about. THAT is what is meant by "he can't take the team on his back."
bigTEXan8
Rookie
If we look at Carr, we know that he can make the throws, he can run, etc. But we also know that Carr makes bad decisions, ducks and runs too early, etc. I think all of the faults that Carr has are ones that can be fixed. Kubiak has been around a great QB in Elway and an efficient QB this year in Plummer, so I think that Kubiak can incorporate some of those characteristics from those two QBs and show Carr what he may or may not being doing, and do what he has to do. Can't think of any examples, but I thought I heard Favre was considered bad when he was in ATL, and then all of the sudden he's a God when he goes to GB. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
chuckm
Veteran
AustinJB said:Do you feel this way when Carr gets the ball when the game is on the line? "C'mon, if we can get the ball to Carr, he'll win it for us." I sure don't. With the way the rest of the team seems to perceive Carr, I dare say THEY don't have that confidence in him either. THAT is the issue. THAT is the leadership quality that people are talking about. THAT is what is meant by "he can't take the team on his back."
hmmmm ok .... food for thought .... I would say this though at the risk of being a Carr apologist, Montana would have little or no chance either behind the line Carr's had for the better part of 4 years ....
thanks
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Jerry Glanville was the coach when Favre was traded , he already had Bobby Hebert .
AustinJB
Rookie
chuckm said:hmmmm ok .... food for thought .... I would say this though at the risk of being a Carr apologist, Montana would have little or no chance either behind the line Carr's had for the better part of 4 years ....
thanks
I agree....to an extent.
While I don't think that Montana, Steve Young, Favre, Brady, Big Ben or anyone else could have taken the 2005 Texans to the playoffs, I HAVE to believe that we would have won more than TWO games.
I just can't see any of these QBs repeatedly sacking themselves, running out of bounds, locking onto one receiver, etc. Therefore, we still would have been a better team and they would not have been sacked as much as Carr was....they would have revealed that the Oline was weak, but would not have made them look as HORRIBLE as Carr made them look IMO.
axman40
Hall of Fame
AustinJB
Rookie
chuckm said:
I guess....it's all how you look at it. What came first? The chicken or the egg?
Are teams good b/c they have good players and put the QB in a great position and therefore gives him confidence? OR, Do players respond to their leaders b/c he has confidence in himself and therefore elevates the play of all involved?
I tend to beleive the latter.
chuckm
Veteran
AustinJB said:I guess....it's all how you look at it. What came first? The chicken or the egg?
Are teams good b/c they have good players and put the QB in a great position and therefore gives him confidence? OR, Do players respond to their leaders b/c he has confidence in himself and therefore elevates the play of all involved?
I tend to beleive the latter.
I'm not sure you can have the latter without the presence of the former ... t
LowDownSkinny
Practice Squad
Let the buyer beware.
Texan fans, realize what you are getting in Vince Young and what you are not getting.
You will be getting a great leader. You will not be getting a QB you can mold.
He won at Texas because Mack admittedly "let Vince be Vince".
An excerpt from a piece I wrote on January 5th...
"... two questions need to be answered before he decides to forego his senior year.
The first is for whatever NFL team decides to take him. Will you be willing to let Vince be Vince? Will you leave his throwing motion alone and let him win games? If not, exercise restraint and look elsewhere to solve your QB and leadership situation.
The second question is for Vince. Youre clearly ready on a physical level, theres no question you are a bona fide leader, and your perseverance shows that you will likely succeed in dealing with the setbacks youll inevitably encounter in your first two years in the NFL. How will you handle the apathetic money-focused 8-year vets that declare this is all about entertainment and getting paid (not winning) and not to sweat the fact that everyone doesnt show up for mini-camp or that some guys hold out? Are you ready to be declared the savior? (Wherever you go, theyll need you more than Texas did.) Will you be receptive to being coached up?"
http://www.lowdownskinny.com/Vince.htm
Given the right situation, Vince could flourish. The right situation is Tennessee. Given Fisher's and Chow's ties to USC, they're taking Leinart.
Wherever Vince goes, I wish him the best.
Trade the pick, get two first rounders, take an OL and a CB, and get on with things.
Texan fans, realize what you are getting in Vince Young and what you are not getting.
You will be getting a great leader. You will not be getting a QB you can mold.
He won at Texas because Mack admittedly "let Vince be Vince".
An excerpt from a piece I wrote on January 5th...
"... two questions need to be answered before he decides to forego his senior year.
The first is for whatever NFL team decides to take him. Will you be willing to let Vince be Vince? Will you leave his throwing motion alone and let him win games? If not, exercise restraint and look elsewhere to solve your QB and leadership situation.
The second question is for Vince. Youre clearly ready on a physical level, theres no question you are a bona fide leader, and your perseverance shows that you will likely succeed in dealing with the setbacks youll inevitably encounter in your first two years in the NFL. How will you handle the apathetic money-focused 8-year vets that declare this is all about entertainment and getting paid (not winning) and not to sweat the fact that everyone doesnt show up for mini-camp or that some guys hold out? Are you ready to be declared the savior? (Wherever you go, theyll need you more than Texas did.) Will you be receptive to being coached up?"
http://www.lowdownskinny.com/Vince.htm
Given the right situation, Vince could flourish. The right situation is Tennessee. Given Fisher's and Chow's ties to USC, they're taking Leinart.
Wherever Vince goes, I wish him the best.
Trade the pick, get two first rounders, take an OL and a CB, and get on with things.
run-david-run
All Pro
I think Leinart is going to NO, meaning that VY goes to Tennesee.LowDownSkinny said:
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Kaiser Toro said:
Wow, can I borrow your ouidji board after you have figured out the remainder of the next decade in football? IMO people forget the cap way too much in their let's cut and let's trade proposals, but you put way too much into it as if there is a single successful formula. Last I checked, Indy had a tremendously lopsided cap and was consistantly in the playoffs with no reason to expect it isn't going to continue. San Diego is also very lopided with Brees, Rivers (completely useless high dollars there), LT and Gates as the stars of the team.
chuckm said:
I think throughout history, leaders, heros whatever you want to call them, were reluctant. That working through adversity to grow stronger in trial by fire is what brings leadership to the front"Cream rising to the Top" I believe ev ery person on this board have become stronger through adverse situations.
Kubiak has a good eye for QB Talent. I trust him and I am willing to go with David a little longer.
Vy Played great in the Rose bowl I admit that. He played great against a medium college defense. NFL is a whole other ballgame. The NFL's worst team has a better defense than the best from the college ranks.
chuckm said:hmmmm ok .... food for thought .... I would say this though at the risk of being a Carr apologist, Montana would have little or no chance either behind the line Carr's had for the better part of 4 years ....
thanks
I'm sorry, but this isn't even funny.
David Carr is no Montana. You take any quarterback that we gush over, from any era, who had the ability to make plays, Starbach, Moon, Cunningham, Marino, Warner, Young, Montana, whoever...... any QB from any time, who had the ability to make plays, when his team needed him to, and that QB would have done much better behind our offensive line.
If David had time to run out of bounds with the ball, throw an interception, run for a first down, or run into his own man, there was time to make a play, and any of these natural born leaders from NFL history would have performed better than David Carr.
And if by some freak'n fluke, that these QBs had a 2-14 season, there would be no doubt about who the MVP on that team was.
zeplin said:I think throughout history, leaders, heros whatever you want to call them, were reluctant. That working through adversity to grow stronger in trial by fire is what brings leadership to the front"Cream rising to the Top" I believe ev ery person on this board have become stronger through adverse situations.
Kubiak has a good eye for QB Talent. I trust him and I am willing to go with David a little longer.
Vy Played great in the Rose bowl I admit that. He played great against a medium college defense. NFL is a whole other ballgame. The NFL's worst team has a better defense than the best from the college ranks.
Are you for us taking Reggie Bush?? If so, doesn't these same NFL a whole other ballgame stuff apply to him as well??
How many people thought Ben Rothlisberger was going to go 15-1 as a rookie?? Was he playing better than medium college defenses @ Miami Ohio?? ... does that mean I expect Vince to go 15-1?? Does that mean I think it is even possible?? Do I think Vince will get us to the SB in two years, and win it for us?? How about Kurt Warner?? any one think NFL Europe, or the Arena Football league, or where-ever Warner played would be a good training ground for the NFL?? Did anyone think he was going to dominate the game?? Did anyone think the game was going to be too slow to Kurt??
My point, is that sometimes it isn't about the talent faced, but the man in the game. I honestly don't think Vince Young will lead us to a worse W-L record than David Carr will next year. I don't have a clue how Vince will handle the NFL, But I know how Carr will.
Carr isn't a total bust... he's damaged. One day, he may take a team to the SuperBowl. But I don't see him taking any team to the SuperBowl, before Vince.
Remember when the Broncos played Pittsburg in the playoffs?? One of the commentators, and just about all the analysts said something to the effect, " You never know which Jake you are going to get.... the safe, won't make a mistake, won't loose the game, or the try to do too much, throw away the game Jake the Snake??"
And that's the deal. Right now, there is a David Carr that has to change. Everyday, every game, you're going to be wondering..... which David is going to show up.....
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
infantrycak said:
If you can use a ouiji board to know which way the spirits are flowing than by all means show us a model in the salary cap era that supports over paying for talent at a few positions and succeeding.
There are two things to consider when I talk about the cap in the Carr/Bush scenario. If we extend Carr and pick Bush we have roughly 22 million next year in three positions (incl. AJ) on a ~93 million number. Thats a lot of payola for what? Potential, but nothing proven. Manning got a deserved extension. Moreover, spending the money on a proven product in its prime and spending top money status to potential is risky proposition in my opinion.
By all means continue to push the notion that spending your top dollars on potential rather than a proven product is a sure fire recipe for success.
This is where my wife would say you always turn it around and make it about me. This was going to be a smiley less post, but then felt compelled to add.
LowDownSkinny
Practice Squad
Dilfer, Johnson, and Warner were each well-molded over time. None were effective right out of college. Well, that is, unless you could Kurt's time as a stock boy and Arena QB.
Mack said himself that the staff tried to monkey with his throwing motion and improve his QB skills, but it backfired and made things worse. (See Missouri game his junior year.) Therefore, what worked was "letting Vince be Vince".
Every quarterback gets better over time, but they don't get better by themselves. They need: a) good coaching and b) the willingness to change the way they play the position.
Mack said himself that the staff tried to monkey with his throwing motion and improve his QB skills, but it backfired and made things worse. (See Missouri game his junior year.) Therefore, what worked was "letting Vince be Vince".
Every quarterback gets better over time, but they don't get better by themselves. They need: a) good coaching and b) the willingness to change the way they play the position.
BradK10
Veteran
Joe Montana was not a vocal "rally the troops" type leader. He led by his play. He was actually pretty quiet. If Carr's play improves under new coaching/scheme, his play will lead others. Just watch.
You can be the greatest leader of all time, but if your coaches suck, your gameplans suck, and the players around you are subpar....you're not gonna win, period.
You can be the greatest leader of all time, but if your coaches suck, your gameplans suck, and the players around you are subpar....you're not gonna win, period.
Wharton
Rookie
Texan Asylum said:
I think this is the key to all the leadership questions about DC and VY. When someone says "leadership is made", I think they should say "he made himself into a leader". This is something that cannot be coached. Desire and passion are closely related emotions that propel people to do things they may not necessarily be qualified to do. We have all done thing that many people thought were impossible, but because we wanted it more then anything else, we were able to achieve our goals. People recognize and follow these traits.
Vince Young is going on the radio, going to the super bowl, and talking to anyone who will listen about being a Houston Texan. This is desire. This is passion. These are traits that will become leadership.
I say we give him the chance to fulfill that desire, that passion.
LBC_Justin
Rookie
1.WILLIEG said:
Just going back 20 years there is a long list of QB's who just managed the game and have won superbowls.
Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Phil Simms, and Jim McMahon.
Some will argue that even Big Ben and Tom Brady are just game managers who make few mistakes and a few big plays when it matters, and ride a solid Defense to a championship. I think Big Ben will become an Awesome QB, I give him a TON of credit the guy knows how to win, but lets face facts, the Steelers win because of that Defense.
2. The "IT thing" is called a GREAT Offensive line and great running attack. You would be surprised how much easier it is to pass the ball when you have plenty of time and your guys are open because the defense fears the run.
Also most of those guys had a great defense on the other side of the ball.
Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, Warren Moon, and Peyton Manning, might be four of the Top 10 QB's of all time and they have a combined ZERO superbowl rings. Most of them were let down by the defense.
Anytime a team wins several superbowls in a short period of time the QB is going to get most of the glory.
S
SESupergenius
Guest
I think that posters on here are putting way too much importance on the QB, just like the Texans did when they drafted a QB with a #1 pick and may do the same again this April. The QB is an important position, but as a whole, the defense is the one that will get you where you want to be. I can filter out the knowledge of a fan based on his/her infatuation with debating on the Carr/Young issue, as those who do not even mention the defense anywhere else are delusional in thinking that a QB alone is going to take us to the promised land. The lack of debate on how to fix this defense as compared to a QB that has had almost zero support throughout his tenure only makes the debate on Young/Carr less substantial. As Casserly and a lot of blind fans have done in previous seasons, they become enamored by the spotlight of taking a player who is picked high, yet neglect one of the most basic fundamentals in football, having a good defense and having a good offensive line.