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Camp Divided?

DRAMA said:
The question is then why does no one consider Lendale White anything other than a possibly above average future NFL back?
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I think the way LenDale runs is more consitent in the NFL. You know what you are gonna get with him, no one knows for sure what your gonna get with Bush
 
tulexan said:
So you are saying that Reggie Bush, who has the some of the best moves in the NCAA and is one of the best instinctual runners to come out in a long time couldn't choose which hole to hit and make people over pursue?
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Big differance between college and the pros
 
I think LenDale could be another Shaun Alexander. They are both similar size and speed, but I think LenDale is a better receiver.
 
tulexan said:
I think LenDale could be another Shaun Alexander. They are both similar size and speed, but I think LenDale is a better receiver.
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i think reggie is legit, but lendale im not so sure.

hes kinda slow, and doesnt make many or really anyone miss.
 
tulexan said:
I think LenDale could be another Shaun Alexander. They are both similar size and speed, but I think LenDale is a better receiver.
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It always helps when you have your left side going to the Pro Bowls (Jones and Hutchinson). LenDale is the protoypical RB, should have a good pro career, maybe even great.

This could be a very good draft
 
run-david-run said:
Big differance between college and the pros
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Reggie makes more people miss then I have ever seen. His skills in college will translate to professional success. Reggie is faster and has better moves than Dominack. He would have been able to make that run, but probably would have taken it to the house.
 
stevo3883 said:
i think reggie is legit, but lendale im not so sure.

hes kinda slow, and doesnt make many or really anyone miss.
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LenDale is deceptively fast and he does have some moves, he is also vey hard to bring down, he runs very hard and is a perfect 1-2 punch with Reggie
 
tulexan said:
I saw some big holes that Dominack ran through today
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As did we all but you can't say that tulexan because if you do then you're disrespecting the juggernaught that is Domanick Davis (which is bad since you're also talkin about drafting another running back so that equals disrespect on top of disrespect).

Much like people who are critical of David Carr get derided as "Carr Haters" people who think drafting Reggie Bush is a good idea catch flak for some perceived slight against Domanick Davis. That's one half of the reason this gets so ugly. People take it personal if you don't stand up, put your hand on your heart, and swear that DD would be a monster back too if he only had a line to block for him.

The holes you saw didn't exist. They were like the Emperors new clothes. Domanick created those holes all on his own out of sheer brute strength and shiftyness. The wouldn't be there if Reggie Bush was drafted by the Texans and put in DD's place.
 
I can't for the life of me remember those linemen -

Wasn't Rivera available? He went to Dallas, right?
I think Wahle was the other Packer that became available. Also, didn't the Bears pick up 2 linemen through FA?

I'm just saying that lots of OL help will become available after salary caps are reassesed and such. IMHO - I'd rather go with a proven OL guy through FA and go with Bush and then draft OL in the 2,3,4, etc...than i would spending our top pick with Brick. That's just my view point.

I think with a new coach (O&D), new system(O&D), some leaders, and another weapon added to the team, I REALLY believe we can get back in this thing next year.

This draft is so deep at OL, i think we can pick up a starter in the 2nd or 3rd. Whitworth and that kid from LSU may very well be as good as Brick or Winston (Probably not though if Winston stays healthy).
 
Hervoyel said:
As did we all but you can't say that tulexan because if you do then you're disrespecting the juggernaught that is Domanick Davis (which is bad since you're also talkin about drafting another running back so that equals disrespect on top of disrespect).

Much like people who are critical of David Carr get derided as "Carr Haters" people who think drafting Reggie Bush is a good idea catch flak for some perceived slight against Domanick Davis. That's one half of the reason this gets so ugly. People take it personal if you don't stand up, put your hand on your heart, and swear that DD would be a monster back too if he only had a line to block for him.

The holes you saw didn't exist. They were like the Emperors new clothes. Domanick created those holes all on his own out of sheer brute strength and shiftyness. The wouldn't be there if Reggie Bush was drafted by the Texans and put in DD's place.
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Its a good thing we have an impartial, level-headed moderator to step in and set us all straight. By the way, the 6 sacks and 9 hurrys on DC also didnt happen, we dont really NEED O-line help, its just a bad dream
 
Hervoyel said:
As did we all but you can't say that tulexan because if you do then you're disrespecting the juggernaught that is Domanick Davis (which is bad since you're also talkin about drafting another running back so that equals disrespect on top of disrespect).

Much like people who are critical of David Carr get derided as "Carr Haters" people who think drafting Reggie Bush is a good idea catch flak for some perceived slight against Domanick Davis. That's one half of the reason this gets so ugly. People take it personal if you don't stand up, put your hand on your heart, and swear that DD would be a monster back too if he only had a line to block for him.

The holes you saw didn't exist. They were like the Emperors new clothes. Domanick created those holes all on his own out of sheer brute strength and shiftyness. The wouldn't be there if Reggie Bush was drafted by the Texans and put in DD's place.
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Is that what happened with Dominack and the phantom holes? I actually was starting to think that he some how teleported around the defenders to get through the line.

I guess that is what Reggie hasn't mastered that Dominack has, the art of teleportation.
 
If you have the number 1 pick - you take the best player. In this case - that would be Reggie Bush. Some experts say that it takes 3 to 4 years to develop OL picks. Casserly & Co. should have done that in 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005. Instead, they wasted picks on stupid trades (a al PBuch and Babin), busts (Joppru), and projects (Seth Wand). The only way to fix the OL quickly will be through free agency or trading for vets. So - you take Reggie Bush. I am a very big DD fan, BUT... when you get this shot - you don't pass it up.

This team needs to be shook just short of being rebuilt. There are a few solid pieces for a foundation - but there are a lot of holes. The Texans are not close to being a playoff team - far from it. Hopefully, a new coaching staff and GM will do things right this time.
 
well... according to what ive read.. there are no quality OL that will be available in FA next season. So instead you draft OL, bring in a good OL coach, and see if he cant do with our line what ol' whats his name did with the young line in San Diego.

Bush solves none of our problems. Ignoring the Oline now does not fix any of our problems. we ignored it in 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005.. using the same excuse you are using now.. and it hasnt worked. Quit ignoring it.. do the right thing.

and if you have the #1 overall pick.. you take the best player.. OR.. you trade down. Trading down this year could net us quite a few more picks.. and we have alot of needs.
 
I think Bush does solve a problem of ours. A major problem actually. We have a problem of not scoring touchdowns and Reggie Bush likes to score touchdowns.

We have lost 5 or 6 games by a touchdown or less so far. One more playmaker on this team could have made this a 6-7 or a 7-6 team at least so far.
 
First you usually dont pick up a quality Tackle in FA. The last to hit the market and really do well is Kareem McKenzie and he did not project as the Giants LT. You get your LT in the draft. Yeah Pitts has done a good job, but as you noticed he is a bit more of a mauler than sweet hipped like most LTs. Reggie Bush is a great college running back, maybe destined to be a great NFL RB, but he has not played a down yet so I just dont give a damn. You build a line through FA and you end up with the 3rd highest paid line that cant block. DD had a great game, and has had a great season, I have not seen Reggie Bush break alot of tackles and for the most part everytime he runs up the middle the first guy that touches him brings him down. I believe that if we had him we would run more stretch plays to nullify this downside of his slight frame, so dont think I am knocking him. Just understand that he and he alone will not help us. Yet locking down an extra second or third and another first next year would.
 
run-david-run said:
Its a good thing we have an impartial, level-headed moderator to step in and set us all straight. By the way, the 6 sacks and 9 hurrys on DC also didnt happen, we dont really NEED O-line help, its just a bad dream
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What do you think I am? A Judge or something? I was asked to moderate which mostly amounts to removing the cleverly spelled bad words from posts and deleting the ones that become personal attacks. Nobody ever said I had to be even remotely impartial to anyone.

You're right though, we need offensive line help. We need an offensive line coach who can actually coach. Carr's been sacked 60+ times this year? He'll beat his own record for sacks this season and the sack total has been on it's way up since the day Joe Pendry began working with our linemen.
 
Can anyone say Dennison. He is Alex gibbs protege' take advantage people. He could be a package deal with Kubiak. hmmmmm....
 
DRAMA said:
I guess I'm not understanding something. The vile towards Reggie Bush to me seems to rival the vile towards the Cowboys...as if Reggie is the enemy and has done something wrong. Another thing that I find hard to understand is WHY we (Those of us who want Bush for OUR team) are WITHOUT QUESTION completely and utterly wrong?

How can drafting Reggie Bush AUTOMATICALLY be the wrong thing if I, SOME others on this board, SOME experts around the NFL, SOME Coaches, SOME Media, SOME fans in general want and think that his skills will help 'our' team?

How can we be AUTOMATICALLY and completely wrong but everyone who does NOT want Bush is AUTOMATICALLY right?

How is that? Does it also mean that if we want Bush that we're Texan haters? Kinda like us who think David needs to step up and get better are AUTOMATICALLY called Carr-haters?

If we want Kubiak/ Jimmy Johnson and the anti-Bush people want, let's say, Pete Carroll/ Al Saunders...does that mean we're wrong in this area too? Because if we're not wrong about one thing then maybe we could be right about Bush. If THAT's the case, then how can we be told BUSH is AUTOMATICALLY wrong for us and our team?

Two things:

1. Those of us who want Bush would most likely be happy with and top flight OL, maybe Hawk, maybe Marcedes, maybe an extra #1, etc...(IMHO)

but

2. If Bush is 'OUR' selection, and by 'OUR' I mean everyone who follows the Texans, could those people enjoy watching Bush or would that same anti-Bush vile be prevalent in their posts?

No tone - No inflection - just an opinion.
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from early on i noticed in this message board if you ask for more than medicre play from david carr your considered a carr hater.
 
Drama and Napa you guys probably get lumped into an unfair category. If you look at the more credible posters on the board you would see that they dont say Reggie is wrong for the sake of being wrong, just not the best option. If we get him hot damn we get a 40M WR/RB and I am happy to have another playmaker. We still have to go through the rest of the draft and find maybe 1 or 2 starters instead of 3-5 starters. See the thing about it is Bush could bring us 5-7 starters over the next few years. We trade pick up another first next year, a second and fourth this year. Then the Texans are likely looking at a starter from round one, two, and three this year and two starters from round one, 1 from rounds two or three next year. That equals to 6 starters rather than maybe 3. simple mathematics people that is all.
 
Coach C. said:
Drama and Napa you guys probably get lumped into an unfair category. If you look at the more credible posters on the board you would see that they dont say Reggie is wrong for the sake of being wrong, just not the best option. If we get him hot damn we get a 40M WR/RB and I am happy to have another playmaker. We still have to go through the rest of the draft and find maybe 1 or 2 starters instead of 3-5 starters. See the thing about it is Bush could bring us 5-7 starters over the next few years. We trade pick up another first next year, a second and fourth this year. Then the Texans are likely looking at a starter from round one, two, and three this year and two starters from round one, 1 from rounds two or three next year. That equals to 6 starters rather than maybe 3. simple mathematics people that is all.
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mathematics? give me a break man...

for all we know all those extra draft picks could turn into phillip buchanons.

you would exchange probably the most sure thing in a long time, for a bunch of risks with much less upside. and seeing how our steller gm/scouting got us to be one of the worst teams ever, you want to trust them with 6 first day picks that will decide if we stay in never ending crappyness.

no thanks, ill take a superstar playmaker and use our picks we have to do the rest of the work.
 
Bush is not more sure than Eli Manning. Bush is a RB/WR so he does not get the nod over a franchise QB sorry. 6 starters out weighs three at all times. Stevo until you give an intelligent reason supported by history and measurables then I cannot post to anymore of your assinine emotional post.
 
Coach C. said:
Bush is not more sure than Eli Manning. Bush is a RB/WR so he does not get the nod over a franchise QB sorry. 6 starters out weighs three at all times. Stevo until you give an intelligent reason supported by history and measurables then I cannot post to anymore of your assinine emotional post.
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and just an fyi, the draft promises nothing, especially after the 1st round. Its a crapshoot after that, and putting the whole future of the franchise on some mid first day picks, with a scouting department like ours, might sound good to those who have been LIVING IN A HOLE THE PAST 12 MONTHS, it doesnt sound good to anyone who can see the forest from the trees and knows there is a sure thing waiting in a mound of unknowns.
 
tulexan said:
I think Bush does solve a problem of ours. A major problem actually. We have a problem of not scoring touchdowns and Reggie Bush likes to score touchdowns.

We have lost 5 or 6 games by a touchdown or less so far. One more playmaker on this team could have made this a 6-7 or a 7-6 team at least so far.
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That's great. Just one little ity bity problem. Bush has to get through our offensive line first.:confused:
 
Scott D said:
That's great. Just one little ity bity problem. Bush has to get through our offensive line first.:confused:
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Davis manages to do it every week...

face it, our line is much better at run blocking than at pass protection.
 
The point is, this is not going to solve our problem. Carr is still getting killed back there. Their offense is so one sided. Either they can't pass or they can't run. Mostly they can't pass (deep for sure) sooo therefore, they are one diminsional.
 
If we get Bush, I'll support him just as I do any Texan player (well, those not named Matt Stevens!). I hope he does well in the NFL, no matter where he lands. I don't have a thing against Bush.

Unlike many of the Bush supporters, I believe that this draft will have two, maybe three tackles that will grade out as first-round material. There will be a couple more tackles in the second round. The talent diffeential between the first and second round has a drop-off. If this is truly the "year of the tackle" as last year was the "year of the running back", then we should see five tackles taken in the first round, right? If that turns out to be the case, then we're getting table scraps in the second round. If it doesn't turn out to be the case, we're pretty much accepting that we're going to try and build a guy up from a second round pick.

There are two second round tackles starting in the NFL right now, as opposed to seventeen first-round tackles (maybe eighteen). The other dozen teams or so have problems at that position and/or are grooming their future LT at the RT position. I'm not saying we can't end up with the next Matt Light or Marvel Smith (current 2nd-rounders), but it's not like we've been experiencing the greatest breakthroughs in unearthing late-round talent. We've put off drafting and developing offensive linemen for the duration of this franchise's existence - now it's time to fix it. IMO, drafting Bush and still ending up with a guy that will qualify as your franchise-grade tackle is not possible unless we end up trading back into the first round (which I don't have an issue with).

I also think the Bush hype is way overblown and you see it every few years with some player and many of them never live up to the hype. I foresee Bush becoming the next Eric Metcalf or Dave Meggett before I see him becoming the next Marshall Faulk. He's closer to their size, build, and skill set. Both of those players were Pro Bowlers and I'd be happy to have someone like that on this team.

But the offensive line really needs to be addressed first, and as I said above, getting second-round talent for your LT spot is dicey, at best. Drafting tackles beyond about position 20 is actually where the busts start happening with regularity. The only real bust I could find at the tackle spot from a higher than 20 draft spot was Mandarich. I can easily name 8-10 running backs drafted highly that busted out for various reasons.
 
stevo3883 said:
and just an fyi, the draft promises nothing, especially after the 1st round. Its a crapshoot after that, and putting the whole future of the franchise on some mid first day picks, with a scouting department like ours, might sound good to those who have been LIVING IN A HOLE THE PAST 12 MONTHS, it doesnt sound good to anyone who can see the forest from the trees and knows there is a sure thing waiting in a mound of unknowns.
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Thank you. That is what I have been saying. That future of the franchise does not need to rest on the shoulders of some mid-round left tackle. Get a stud tackle in the first round and build from there.
 
eriadoc said:
Thank you. That is what I have been saying. That future of the franchise does not need to rest on the shoulders of some mid-round left tackle. Get a stud tackle in the first round and build from there.
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well what do you think of getting Bush AND that tackle?
 
stevo3883 said:
well what do you think of getting Bush AND that tackle?
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Read my post above. If we can trade back up to the first round and get both, sign me up! I have nothing at all against Bush and if this team did not have such pressing need elsewhere, I'd probably be right there on the Bush bandwagon with you. That first quarter of today's game made me want Winston or Brickshaw even more. Carr was getting mauled before he could even complete his drop at times. It's pathetic to watch and this team will never win games with a blueprint of running for 100+ and passing for 100.

As for getting the "stud" left tackle in the second round, that is where I think people are deluding themselves a bit, in order to justify the Bush hype. Go to www.drafthistory.com and look at all the tackles that have been drafted in the second round over the past 10 years (or more). Then see how many are currently starters at left tackle. It's not many, and like I said, we might be able to buck that trend, but I don't have faith we can.
 
eriadoc said:
Read my post above. If we can trade back up to the first round and get both, sign me up! I have nothing at all against Bush and if this team did not have such pressing need elsewhere, I'd probably be right there on the Bush bandwagon with you. That first quarter of today's game made me want Winston or Brickshaw even more. Carr was getting mauled before he could even complete his drop at times. It's pathetic to watch and this team will never win games with a blueprint of running for 100+ and passing for 100.

As for getting the "stud" left tackle in the second round, that is where I think people are deluding themselves a bit, in order to justify the Bush hype. Go to www.drafthistory.com and look at all the tackles that have been drafted in the second round over the past 10 years (or more). Then see how many are currently starters at left tackle. It's not many, and like I said, we might be able to buck that trend, but I don't have faith we can.
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well I figure if we use our 3rd with our 2nd rounder in a trade we can move up into the 20's and pick up a guy like Scott or Winston, who both seem more versatile & can play both sides.
 
stevo3883 said:
well I figure if we use our 3rd with our 2nd rounder in a trade we can move up into the 20's and pick up a guy like Scott or Winston, who both seem more versatile & can play both sides.
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I'm on board with that.
 
I am Divided on the subject. I think DD might just be the back we need and we may not need to look at Bush. I like the underdog spirit, selected 4th round in the draft so he might have a little more to prove than Reggie Bush. Although if Bush comes in and lights up the scoreboard , I will be the Fat guy with the R. Bush Jersey on.
 
If we get Bush, I will be an instant fan, even before he actually has his chance to prove his worth, but I'd much rather trade down and focus on the O-line. I also agree that Davis deserves loyalty and I worry about Bush being stocky enough to take the between-the-tackles punishment of the NFL. He can move. God knows he can move, but can he go straight up the gut and bust heads with NFL middle linebackers and be successfull at it, while having D-linemen fall all over him? If he can't and we pick him, what a terrible waist. Of course, he could still be a good receiver, but what a waste of a #1 overall pick. When I think NFL RB, I think 225 and 5'10". Bush is 198 and 6'0". Other than boxers, nobody takes a BEATING like an NFL runningback.

I don't think many people here are really anti-Bush people. I think they're just anti-Bush-on-the-Texans-at-#1-with-the-same-old-O-line people.

Oh, and I'm not 100% against taking Bush anymore. I'm more like 63-37 against it....and 500% fire Capers and his staff.
 
tulexan said:
I guess that is what Reggie hasn't mastered that Dominack has, the art of teleportation.
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Good news!!

According to Quantum Physics, teleportation is possible and has been acomplished at the sub-atomic level in the lab. Not sure though if we can get it to work before next year though.

At least HOPE has arrived.

Go Texans - Go teleportation!! :drool:
 
One other quick thought -

If PITTS can play LT, then what do we need?

If we replace WADE and that huge contract, then we can get McNeil in the 2nd round - Bush and McNeil - done.

If we replace Weigart with a mauling type guard, he can be gotten in the second round or late first - Bush and TOP Guard.

If we replace, LG (Milford, etc...), he can be gotten in the second round or late first - Bush and top LG available.


I don't know if we need Brick anymore than we need McNeil, Whitworth, etc...or anyone that can be had in the second. People say that franchise LT's are not found in the 2nd. TRUE!!


make no mistake - there is NO FRANCHISE LT in this draft. That's a major argument against drafting Brick or Winston with the top pick. Get a HOMERUN threat and get a top tackle with #33 pick in the entire draft or move up with a 2nd and the extra 3rd to 15 or so and get the guy you want if he's there. Take the homerun and the potential instead of the potential and the potential!
 
For me, this is where I'm at:

1. I will never root for the Texans to lose. And that attitude makes me want to puke. It is quite possible we could lose all the rest of our games and not get the messiah Bush because we've been Eli'd or he gets hurt in the Rose Bowl or he stays in school or whatever. Sometimes things just end up working out the right way, but I will never ever ever root for the Texans to lose.

2. I just want the best situation. If after poking and prodding and whatever, Bush is our guy, then bring him on. If a team Hershels us the entire universe and a bag of chips for him, well then, I am OK with dealing. I want whatever is best and I am not egocentric enough to think that my non-film watching, haven't seen all the games self knows what is best. I also don't pretend that our coach/draft staff is perfect either, but nobody is. Of course, I have opinions on stuff, but with all of this I am willing to keep an open mind.

3. Whoever is on my team is who I am gonna root for. For example, I respect what Jimmy Johnson has done in his career but he is not one of my favorite people in the world. I often think he is kind of a jerk. But if he defies long odds, and becomes our coach, I'd do whatever I could to support him and the team. And try not to comment on his hair too much.


Ultimately, no matter what happens in the draft, there is always going to be someone who is sore about it, because there always is. It is just the way it is. There are gonna be good choices and bad choices, there is gonna be good luck and bad luck.

Karmically, I think we are ready for some good to show up.
 
DRAMA said:
make no mistake - there is NO FRANCHISE LT in this draft. That's a major argument against drafting Brick or Winston with the top pick. Get a HOMERUN threat and get a top tackle with #33 pick in the entire draft or move up with a 2nd and the extra 3rd to 15 or so and get the guy you want if he's there. Take the homerun and the potential instead of the potential and the potential!
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I don't know this for sure, but that is my LT fear. I don't want to take a LT high in the draft, just because we need one, if the guy really isn't the second coming of Orlando Pace/Walter Jones.
 
Texans_Chick said:
I don't know this for sure, but that is my LT fear. I don't want to take a LT high in the draft, just because we need one, if the guy really isn't the second coming of Orlando Pace/Walter Jones.
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All of my opinions written above should be taken with this in mind as well. I have sqaid in many of my posts regarding the subject, If a tackle grades out to be a franchise-grade tackle then we need to go that direction. If there's no one in the first round that meets that criteria, then by all means, draft for other need or BPA, whatever. However, franchise-grade tackle does not necessarily equate to Pace, Ogden, or Jones. Tarik Glenn, Levi Jones, Luke Petitgout, etc., are just as effective, if less heralded.

As for Pitts playing LT - I would like for him to be successful there. Pitts is one of my favorite Texans because of his attitude. However, there's not a great deal of information that the average fan can glean from his play to this point. He's had flashes of brilliance, which leads me to think he definitely deserves a shot at competing for it. But that should not preclude us from drafting for that position anyway. If Pitts does beat the rookie out (likely for his first year, anyway) then it's a bonus. Wade is the odd man out here, as he really is not a very good pass protector. So I could see Pitts or the new tackle going to RT. That would probably be Pitts.
 
Wade and some of these other contracts have really put us in a bind. The Miami BBS, Oakland BBS, Miami BBS again (Greenwood), etc...were all clear that we were severly overpaying with these guys.

Problem #1 - find out whose wanted these players and fire them. :brickwall

Problem #2 - OL

Chad Clifton and their #1 for our #1? :)
 
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