Bushs' stats vs OU in the National Championship Game of '04

[AustinJB]

The issue that VY supporters ignore is that he was horrible in a pro style offense...Mack dumbed it down to a spread offense and he flourished.

FYI: THE SPREAD IS NOT RUN BY ANY NFL TEAMS

VY supporters do ignore this. Do you want to know why? B/c most people w/ decent football IQ understand the reasons behind it. Let me try to explain it to you in simple terms.

First of all, very few college teams run a true pro-style offense. This never seems to be a major issue for NFL teams. Why? B/c that is what the combine, workouts, and interviews are for....to determine if your potential QB is smart enough to LEARN an NFL offense. Is it easier to project what a QB can do if they have been running a pro-style offense in college? Sure, but reality is...that is usually not the case.

Secondly, I believe most would agree that QB is one of the most difficult positions to learn and master...right? VY played in a pro-style offense for only a few games during his redshirt freshman yr (b/c he split time w/ Mock) and about 5 games into his sophomore yr. It stands to reason that the guy was going through growing pains as a young QB just learning a new system.

And Mack didn't have to "dumb it down" for VY; he simply put in an offense that took advantage of his QB's abilities. When you have someone at the QB position who has his athleticism and speed, you take advantage of that. It would be stupid not to. That would be like forcing Bush to ONLY run between the tackles and not let him get the ball in open space....or ONLY throwing screen passes and tosses to Lendale White instead of utilizing his power and straight-ahead running style. Give me a break!

That doesn't mean that VY can not throw; IMO he proved that this past year (and has a chance to shine at the combine for the naysayers.) The offense that Kubes is installing would be a perfect fit for VY. Hand the ball off, play-action pass, bootleg out w/ the option to either pass or run depending on what the coverage does. This type of offense would also allow VY to utilize his abilities. While he can pass when the situation dictates it, you're not limiting him to ONLY be a pocket passer....you're allowing him to use his athleticism.

Since Shanahan and Kubiak run this type of offense that takes advantage of a QB's mobility, does it mean that they "dumbed it down" for Elway, Plummer, and now Carr or VY....NO!

FYI: GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY BEFORE YOU BLINDLY REPEAT WHAT OTHER VY BASHERS ARE SAYING....

 

[YoungnotBush]

Oh, I don't know ... Jamal Lewis, Marshall Faulk, Emmitt Smith, Corey Dillon? Why not mention defenses while you are isolating pieces to the puzzle?

How about forgettables like Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer?

This guy thinks that Corey Dillon won the Super Bowl. Enough said.

Marshall didn't win it either, Kurt Warner was going crazy that year and all through the playoffs.

Jamal lewis didn't win it, that D did.

Emmitt Smith is the best one out of that group, course he had Troy Aikman to go along with Micheal Irvin and the best offensive line in the history of football.

Unless you see the Texans trading for the whole Kansas City offensive line anytime soon, then Reggie or DD isn't going to win any Super Bowls. Or the Texans for that matter.

No matter who they draft, Vince or Bush or trade down, they have to seriously address the line this offseason.

Vince just has the ability to make a good offensive line look great.

 

[tulexan]

Marshall Faulk and Corey Dillon both had very big parts in their respective teams Super Bowl runs. I would bet that neither team would have made it to the Super Bowl without both players.

 

[YoungnotBush]

Corey Dillon wasn't even there for the first Super Bowl or the Second. He came aboard for the 3rd in four years. Tom Brady and that D is why they had a dynasty, which could still be continuing if they win this year.

 

[tulexan]

I realize that he wasn't around for the first two Super Bowls, but the fact still remains that he was a major factor on that team last year and they won several games because of his consistent running game.

 

[YoungnotBush]

Since 1985, there has been 11 times a QB has won the Super Bowl MVP, while only 3 RB's.

Bye the way there was 2 MVP WR's.

The last RB was the Broncos horse TD, who had John Elway, also a Super Bowl MVP.



One point though no one seems to be talking about is that a QB's career is much longer. You can have a QB for 10 - 15 yrs easy. RB's don't usually last near as long and don't have as many productive seasons.

 

[MorKnolle]

This guy thinks that Corey Dillon won the Super Bowl. Enough said.

Marshall didn't win it either, Kurt Warner was going crazy that year and all through the playoffs.

Jamal lewis didn't win it, that D did.

Emmitt Smith is the best one out of that group, course he had Troy Aikman to go along with Micheal Irvin and the best offensive line in the history of football.

Unless you see the Texans trading for the whole Kansas City offensive line anytime soon, then Reggie or DD isn't going to win any Super Bowls. Or the Texans for that matter.

No matter who they draft, Vince or Bush or trade down, they have to seriously address the line this offseason.

Vince just has the ability to make a good offensive line look great.

Vince would have the exact same problems behind the OLine that we've had as Carr did.

 

[YoungnotBush]

I realize that he wasn't around for the first two Super Bowls, but the fact still remains that he was a major factor on that team last year and they won several games because of his consistent running game.

So you can live with winning several games.


VY can win every game, b/c he controls the ball, the tempo, the offense and defines the team.

VY is a Texas legend and the best when it comes to leadership. Show me some examples of David Carr's leadership.

 

[YoungnotBush]

Vince would have the exact same problems behind the OLine that we've had as Carr did.

Can you imagine VY rolling out on a play-action bootleg?

Have you ever seen the Atlanta Falcons and the Offense that they run. They always have one of the top rushing offenses and control the clock and leave it up to Vick to win the game in the end.

Vince is a better QB than Vick and a much better decision maker. He also is a pass first QB, which most people just don't realize about him. If you notice he gets most of his rushing yards at the end of games. Why? Let me tell you. He gets more yards in the last drives, because that is when the Defense is really tightening up their coverages, especially with all the blitzing at the end of games. He just kills the blitz. And he'll kill with the pass also, example OSU in the horshoe.

When was the last time David Carr just killed the blitz?

 

[tulexan]

Who cares if Vince is a Texas legend? Hometown has nothing to do with NFL success. Vince being a Texas legend is about as relevant as Reggie Bush or Matt Leinart being a California legend.

 

[michaelm]

Where did the VY talk come from.

Get back on track.

Anyways, you VY haters that get tired of us turning every thread into a bash carr/pimp VY fest are guilty of it in this thread. VY was not in the initial arguement.

**This is a VY free zone**

So you, a noted VY supporter, get to post stats that you claim detract from Bush's attractiveness as a draft pick, but refuse to allow people to use the same criteria to evaluate the candidate that you so unabashedly support?
If that, in itself, doesn't indicate a weakness in your candidate's credintials, I don't know what does...
If your guy is so infallable, who cares what yard stick people use to measure him? Why would you want to exculde your hero from this discussion?
You say that this thread is not about him, but come on... any thread about VY is a thread about RB and any thread about RB is about VY.
If we were in the school yard, I would call you a word that rhymes with wussy, but had a freakin P in it...

 

[michaelm]

And Mack didn't have to "dumb it down" for VY; he simply put in an offense that took advantage of his QB's abilities.

There it is... plain as day. "Took advantage of his QB's abilities..."
even his coach knew that he needed to impliment a system that wasn't a pure pass first system. He didn't have a QB who's abilities included running a pro style offense, so he changed his system to take advantage of his QB's abilities...
you said it yourself, don't you see that?
If he is such a great passer, why didn't Mack change his system to take advantage of that?

 

[run-david-run]

That OU game was Vince's first start, here's a game Reggie played later that year:

Reggie Bush's stats against Cal 2004
rushes: 17-82 0 TDs 4.8 avg. rec: 1-4 0 TDs 86 total yds & 0 total tds

And one Vince played later:

Vince Young's stats 2004 Rose Bowl against Michigan

Rushing: 21-192 4 TDs 60 long 9.1 avg. Passing: 16 for 18 1 Int 1 TD


and don't forget He beat the unbeatable!!!!

I thought you always upgrade the position of QB, especially with the type of upgrade this would be, considering Domanick Davis is a great RB also. QB's win Super Bowls, plain and simple.

Trent Dilffer or Dan Marino? Who would you take...thats what I thought....

 

[run-david-run]

Where did the VY talk come from.

Get back on track.

Why do we want to draft Bush #1 ovrall when he can barely crack the line-up when it's a big game? Every game in the NFL is a big game. Is it to be believed that he'll have a freaky ypc but only 6-8 carries along with 2-3 catches for less than 40 yd and no td's. He won't be returning punts or kicks either so you can toss that out as well.

I find it funny at how guys that are of NFL talent make a name for themselves with their PR/KR abilities. They are usually going against 3rd and 4th stringers. Bush (heisman), Howard (heisman), Woodson (heisman). .

Anyways, you VY haters that get tired of us turning every thread into a bash carr/pimp VY fest are guilty of it in this thread. VY was not in the initial arguement.

**This is a VY free zone**

Just explain why a guy who is a scat back at best (my opinion based on what he has CONSISTANTLY done vs the tougher competition) in the NFL is worthy of our #1 overall pick.

Acctually, every game in college is a bigger game then everygame then the NFL. If you lose one game in the NCCA, you are out of the national chamipionship picture, its a season long playoff...

 

[texplayer2]

I was wondering this earlier and decided to investigate.
Bushs' #'s in the National Championship against OU were even more unimpressive than his against UT.

Here's the link:
http://usctrojans.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2004-2005/2005ob.html

It seems as though Lendale was the feature back once again in a big game.
Lendale had 15 carries for 118 yrds and 2 td's. No rec. yrds.

Bush had only 6 carries for 79 yrds. 12.5 avg, why only 6 carries though.
Bush had only 2 rec for 31 yrds.
Bush did all the return work and had only 1 PR for 7 yrd and 2 KR for 36, an 18 yrd avg
Bush had no td's at all in this game.

Sure Bush won the Heisman a season later but his 500 yd + game against Fresno was the deciding factor in that, heck they lost to Nevada a week later.

Maybe since the game was out of hand is the reason he was underused or it was because he is uneffective in big games (garbage yrds). The OU defense stunk it up though but there were 3 defensive guys that were drafted by the NFL in the following draft, Tommy Harris in the 1st - Tedy Lehman in the 2nd - and Derick Strait in the 3rd.
This is about as close to a vision of what he'll be able to do against NFL talent as any, not to mention the UT game.

Jeez, when there is a big game with some NFL defensive talent or superior coaching on the other sideline this guy (bush) seems to be just an above avg player, nothing special. What's up with that. Anyone wanna google up his stats against ND this season.

So I ask the question again, why do we want this guy on the team with the #1 overalll selection? I've got my own smokescreen thoery but I've posted that enough, maybe I'll get another chance later on after a few qoutes come thru.

I would not have wanted the Texans to draft Bush last year. He was good but, in my mind was not that much better than White. From the first game this year to the end he showed massive improvements in his game.White was complaining after the first game of the season, because they were giving the ball to Bush. By the end of this season I see Bush as way above White in potential and performance. Stats don't tell you the story.

 

[AustinJB]

There it is... plain as day. "Took advantage of his QB's abilities..."
even his coach knew that he needed to impliment a system that wasn't a pure pass first system. He didn't have a QB who's abilities included running a pro style offense, so he changed his system to take advantage of his QB's abilities...
you said it yourself, don't you see that?
If he is such a great passer, why didn't Mack change his system to take advantage of that?

Just b/c you have a QB that is an excellent runner, doesn't mean that he can't pass too. Your logic is ridiculous....he CAN pass, but if you don't take advantage of his incredible athletic ability, you aren't utilizing him to his fullest potential.

You seemed to take one quote from my post and twisted it to make your point. Read all of it....you didn't comment on the part where I said:

Since Shanahan and Kubiak run this type of offense that takes advantage of a QB's mobility, does it mean that they "dumbed it down" for Elway, Plummer, and now Carr or VY....NO!

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

Bushs' stats in college big games are suspect at best. OU lst season, ND this year, and UT in this years National Championship.....?????

Stats don't say it all but they say alot.

 

[LikeABoss]

Bushs' stats in college big games are suspect at best. OU lst season, ND this year, and UT in this years National Championship.....?????

Reggie Bush

15 carries 160 yards 10.7 ypc 3 TD's longest run 45 yards

LenDale White

10 carries 26 yards 2.6 ypc 1 TD longest run 8 yards

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=252880087

I don't know where you get your information from, but you are clearly misinformed.

 

[YoungnotBush]

Who cares if Vince is a Texas legend? Hometown has nothing to do with NFL success. Vince being a Texas legend is about as relevant as Reggie Bush or Matt Leinart being a California legend.

Except the team is in Texas. Who cares if we make Californians mad. What if Reggie gets booed his first game. What if he turns out to just be a 3rd down back and a special teams guy. He may be really good at those things, but is that really worth the amount of money. Especially when RB has been the only thing we have drafted good and in much later rounds.

 

[YoungnotBush]

Trent Dilffer or Dan Marino? Who would you take...thats what I thought....

Dan Marino, if I was drafting. Trent Dilfer if I had a solid offensive line and a great Defense and solid running game and I was picking up a veteran off the free agency market.

 

[YoungnotBush]

Bottom line is does everyone think that David Carr can win a game down the stretch every weekend and be able to string together 4 wins in the playoffs. Yes or No?

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

Reggie Bush

15 carries 160 yards 10.7 ypc 3 TD's longest run 45 yards

LenDale White

10 carries 26 yards 2.6 ypc 1 TD longest run 8 yards

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=252880087

I don't know where you get your information from, but you are clearly misinformed.

Right you are but I have mentioned in these mb's that (in the ND game) when it was 4th and 9 and he wasn't the option and when they had the ball down on the goal line he wasn't even the option on 3rd or 4th down. They lose that game and the season is shot. Why? Just a mere oversight like Walter Payton in the Super Bowl or is it consistant with the way he's able to be used. I tend to think the latter, 4th and 1 in the UT game ring a bell, and I don't want to hear any crap about how Pete made a bad call, Lendale earned his spot in that moment of the game and Bush earned his spot on the sidelines in that momentof the game.

 

[LikeABoss]

Right you are but I have mentioned in these mb's that (in the ND game) when it was 4th and 9 and he wasn't the option and when they had the ball down on the goal line he wasn't even the option on 3rd or 4th down. They lose that game and the season is shot. Why? Just a mere oversight like Walter Payton in the Super Bowl or is it consistant with the way he's able to be used. I tend to think the latter, 4th and 1 in the UT game ring a bell, and I don't want to hear any crap about how Pete made a bad call, Lendale earned his spot in that moment of the game and Bush earned his spot on the sidelines in that momentof the game.

You claimed something was a fact and I proved you wrong. You can live in your little delusional world about Reggie Bush all you want, but i'm definately not about to sit up here and waste my time arguing against someone's biased, jaded opinion.

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

You claimed something was a fact and I proved you wrong. You can live in your little delusional world about Reggie Bush all you want, but i'm definately not about to sit up here and waste my time arguing against someone's biased, jaded opinion.

You did prove me wrong about something I claimed as fact (2 out of 3 ain't bad though, you should be proud though, wanna clarify the OU and UT national champioship games, kinda like Barry Bonds and his absense in playoff games). And as far as my "Delusional "World", I'm not the one with an RB avatar.

Bottom line is, you know and I know, Bush isn't gonna be an impact back/hybrid back in the NFL when it comes to scoring in the redzone. He'll get a million yrds all betwen the 20's but when it really matters (in the red zone or on 4th and short) he won't be an option, doesn't sit well on the stomachs of most of us Texans fans. Imagine we don't get in the endzone and Reggie is on te bench or only used as a decoy, all the fans are gonna boo horribly, or even worse, we give him the ball and he can't get in.....all that money.....the skipping of Vince or Leinert for that matter.

 

[thunderkyss]

Bottom line is, you know and I know, Bush isn't gonna be an impact back/hybrid back in the NFL when it comes to scoring in the redzone.

The thing about Reggie, from what I've seen, and according to all the hype I've heard, You can't just stick him on a team, and expect him to be an instant impact.

Everybody that wants him on our team, wants to run a 2 back Pro style offense.. even though we've never ran split backs, and to the best of my knowledge, neither has Denver. They want to split him out in the slot...... I can't remember the last time the Texans, or Denver done that. They want to make RB our #2 reciever.... I don't know when that has ever been successful...

Reggie needs to go to ST Louis... or Detroit, or Kansas City.. I can see Dick Vermiels eyes watering over Bush.... but he's gone. Will Herm do any of that with his Running Backs?? has he ever?? then he's probably got the best problem any NFL coach has right now, concerning Running Backs........ Holmes?? or Johnson??

I just don't think he fits what we want to be doing on offense.

 

[MorKnolle]

The thing about Reggie, from what I've seen, and according to all the hype I've heard, You can't just stick him on a team, and expect him to be an instant impact.

Everybody that wants him on our team, wants to run a 2 back Pro style offense.. even though we've never ran split backs, and to the best of my knowledge, neither has Denver. They want to split him out in the slot...... I can't remember the last time the Texans, or Denver done that. They want to make RB our #2 reciever.... I don't know when that has ever been successful...

Reggie needs to go to ST Louis... or Detroit, or Kansas City.. I can see Dick Vermiels eyes watering over Bush.... but he's gone. Will Herm do any of that with his Running Backs?? has he ever?? then he's probably got the best problem any NFL coach has right now, concerning Running Backs........ Holmes?? or Johnson??

I just don't think he fits what we want to be doing on offense.

What precisely are we wanting to do on offense? I, among most other people on this board, have been dying to know what our offense will look like and what we plan to do with it, so enlighten us on what the offense will be like since Bush doesn't fit it.

 

[tulexan]

The thing about Reggie, from what I've seen, and according to all the hype I've heard, You can't just stick him on a team, and expect him to be an instant impact.

Everybody that wants him on our team, wants to run a 2 back Pro style offense.. even though we've never ran split backs, and to the best of my knowledge, neither has Denver. They want to split him out in the slot...... I can't remember the last time the Texans, or Denver done that. They want to make RB our #2 reciever.... I don't know when that has ever been successful...

Reggie needs to go to ST Louis... or Detroit, or Kansas City.. I can see Dick Vermiels eyes watering over Bush.... but he's gone. Will Herm do any of that with his Running Backs?? has he ever?? then he's probably got the best problem any NFL coach has right now, concerning Running Backs........ Holmes?? or Johnson??

I just don't think he fits what we want to be doing on offense.

Bush isn't a typical RB. If he was, he wouldn't be projected to be the #1 pick. What makes him so valuable and why scouts are salivating over him is the very notion that he can be split out wide and be an effective WR.

 

[thunderkyss]

What precisely are we wanting to do on offense? I, among most other people on this board, have been dying to know what our offense will look like and what we plan to do with it, so enlighten us on what the offense will be like since Bush doesn't fit it.

I really imagine we'll be very much like Denver. If more people compared Reggie to Clinton, then I'd be more willing to accept the trade down, or Bush camp. But right now, I can't see it.

I expect detroit to be like the SuperBowl Rams.

 

[jerek]

I really imagine we'll be very much like Denver. If more people compared Reggie to Clinton, then I'd be more willing to accept the trade down, or Bush camp. But right now, I can't see it.

I expect detroit to be like the SuperBowl Rams.

Hm, a lot like Tatum Bell/Mike Anderson?

Yeesh, do you watch football?

 

[thunderkyss]

Hm, a lot like Tatum Bell/Mike Anderson?

Yeesh, do you watch football?

have you ever seen Tatum Bell and Mike Anderson in split in the backfield?? Ever see either of them split out as wide reciever??

Are you sure you read everything I wrote??

If more people compared Reggie Bush to Clinton Portis, I'd be all for drafting him, if I can't trade the pick. But since he is more of a Marshall Faulk, (who has done little pre/post Warner) I'll pass. I'd rather use the pick on my future quarterback.

 

[Hervoyel]

perfect example of how a certain group of people can do nothing but bash VY

Just as the original post in this thread demonstrates that a certain group of people can do nothing but try and find a reason why Reggie Bush cannot possibly be considered a good use of the first overall selection when Vince "The sun shines out of my backside" Young is available.

We're all just going to have to face the fact that 90% of all posts between now and the draft come with either a Bush or a Young agenda. It's entirely fair game to answer one with the other.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Bottom line is, you know and I know, Bush isn't gonna be an impact back/hybrid back in the NFL when it comes to scoring in the redzone. He'll get a million yrds all betwen the 20's but when it really matters (in the red zone or on 4th and short) he won't be an option, doesn't sit well on the stomachs of most of us Texans fans. Imagine we don't get in the endzone and Reggie is on te bench or only used as a decoy, all the fans are gonna boo horribly, or even worse, we give him the ball and he can't get in.....all that money.....the skipping of Vince or Leinert for that matter.

I remember back when Detroit fans used to mercilessly boo Barry Sanders because of his inability to convert 3rd and shorts, and for his red zone inaffectiveness. Who cares about the 60+ TD runs when he constantly got stopped for negative yardage.

 

[Hervoyel]

The thread author (me) never brought up VY.

Based on the subject matter and your signature I think you didn't need to bring up VY to make your point.

"Kubiak is no mechanic!
Trade in the Carr and go with a Young-er model!"

 

[MorKnolle]

I really imagine we'll be very much like Denver. If more people compared Reggie to Clinton, then I'd be more willing to accept the trade down, or Bush camp. But right now, I can't see it.

I expect detroit to be like the SuperBowl Rams.

My main point of that was none of us know for sure what Kubiak is going to want to do with the offense, so if he feels the best thing for our offense and team is Reggie Bush then so be it. If he thinks trading down and addressing OL, defense, and TE and not QB or RB is the best thing, so be it. If he thinks drafting Vince is the best thing, so be it, but I really don't see him coming to that conclusion at all.

 

[MorKnolle]

Just as the original post in this thread demonstrates that a certain group of people can do nothing but try and find a reason why Reggie Bush cannot possibly be considered a good use of the first overall selection when Vince "The sun shines out of my backside" Young is available.

We're all just going to have to face the fact that 90% of all posts between now and the draft come with either a Bush or a Young agenda. It's entirely fair game to answer one with the other.

I love that nickname for him, I might add it to my sig if you have no objection to me doing so.

 

[tulexan]

have you ever seen Tatum Bell and Mike Anderson in split in the backfield?? Ever see either of them split out as wide reciever??

Are you sure you read everything I wrote??

If more people compared Reggie Bush to Clinton Portis, I'd be all for drafting him, if I can't trade the pick. But since he is more of a Marshall Faulk, (who has done little pre/post Warner) I'll pass. I'd rather use the pick on my future quarterback.

Marshall Faulk hasn't done anything since Warner left because he is at the end of his career and is getting old. And he did win offensive player of the year on the Colts (No Warner), went to the pro bowl, and won pro bowl MVP. He has been plagued with injuries in the recent history and the team has moved more to Steven Jackson than Marshall Faulk. Just like Priest has had a lot of injuries recently and the team has moved to Larry Johnson.

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

Based on the subject matter and your signature I think you didn't need to bring up VY to make your point.

"Kubiak is no mechanic!
Trade in the Carr and go with a Young-er model!"

Oh yea, oops. The secret is out, I'm a VY lover, a Carr hater, a burnt orange Kool-Aide drinker, a burnt orange glasses wearer, a Carr salesman, etc....

Actually all the stuff about burnt orange is false, I cheer for the horns but I also cheer for all the other teams in Texas too, even Baylor and U of H.