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Bush = match ups problems?
- Thread starter F-minus67
- Start date
Young played a terrible defense and touched the ball every playTXurias said:
Bush played a great defense and touched the ball like 17 times
lets use common sense.Everybody knew that UT's gameplan was to stop Reggie Bush. If we knew that dont you think Pete Carroll knew it. UT put more DB's on the field to contain bush's speed. So what would you do run Bush to the outside or run White up the middle. Also I dont want to hear about Bush trying to lateral the ball because Young did the same thing and got lucky by a bad call by the ref.
Can someone explain to me when 170 yards and 1 TD became a bad game. Ill be waiting for my anwser.
That is too funny. VY one game and he's the Savior. Not saying he won't be good maybe even great but QB is the least of our needs. Carr had a bad season and so did the rest of the team. Some say these are excuses but when your top WR and RB play maybe 6 games together due to injuries and and a terrible offensive scheme.....oh and did I mention that we let go our best DB and LB go in the offseason.Bubbajwp said:
If you know what I mean.
AustinJB
Rookie
Bubbajwp said:Young played a terrible defense and touched the ball every play
Bush played a great defense and touched the ball like 17 times
Everybody knew that UT's gameplan was to stop Reggie Bush. If we knew that dont you think Pete Carroll knew it. UT put more DB's on the field to contain bush's speed. So what would you do run Bush to the outside or run White up the middle. Also I dont want to hear about Bush trying to lateral the ball because Young did the same thing and got lucky by a bad call by the ref.
Can someone explain to me when 170 yards and 1 TD became a bad game. Ill be waiting for my anwser.
It's a bad game when....the most hyped player ever and Sportscenter's proclaimed "god" of football ONLY had 170 yds and 1 TD in the biggest game of the year and probably his career to date.
Add to that that USC's three-headed monster was outplayed by UT's ONE star (no, VY didn't do it by himself, but he did outplay USC's three.) Hmmmm....Heisman winner has 170 yds and 1 TD.....runner-up has 267 passing, 200 rushing and 3 TD. C'mon, if it was the other way around and VY had 170 yds, etc. and Bush had 467 total, etc. ya'll would be giving VY hell (many are anyway)....as is evidenced by the A&M game comments (and that game wasn't even as big as the RB.)
Yeah, why don't we use common sense.
I won't even get into the USC gameplanned for VY too except it didn't matter, or if Bush was held in check b/c Texas put fast people on the field what will he do against an NFL defense. Almost sounds like you're making my point for me.
http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/000_stats/2005/HTML/plyr0092.htmstevo3883 said:
Maybe im reading it wrong correct me if I am. please.
Im not question the fact the Young had a great game. But saying Bush got shutdown is just stupid. He touched the ball 19 times and had 177 yards which is about 9.31 yards every time he touched the ball. How is that possibly getting shutdown. That is your team not giving you the ball.AustinJB said:It's a bad game when....the most hyped player ever and Sportscenter's proclaimed "god" of football ONLY had 170 yds and 1 TD in the biggest game of the year and probably his career to date.
Add to that that USC's three-headed monster was outplayed by UT's ONE star (no, VY didn't do it by himself, but he did outplay USC's three.) Hmmmm....Heisman winner has 170 yds and 1 TD.....runner-up has 267 passing, 200 rushing and 3 TD. C'mon, if it was the other way around and VY had 170 yds, etc. and Bush had 467 total, etc. ya'll would be giving VY hell (many are anyway)....as is evidenced by the A&M game comments (and that game wasn't even as big as the RB.)
Yeah, why don't we use common sense.
I won't even get into the USC gameplanned for VY too except it didn't matter, or if Bush was held in check b/c Texas put fast people on the field what will he do against an NFL defense. Almost sounds like you're making my point for me.
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=41375Bubbajwp said:
check out this site and let me know what u think about our 3rd and 4th pick.
I think if we can get Byrd at with the 4th that would be great or maybe Thomas/Fassano in 5th.
AustinJB
Rookie
Bubbajwp said:
See....THAT is my point. Why was his team not giving him the ball? Pete is a great coach....he didn't make a bad decision. He just put the person in the game that was playing better...White. If the Texas defense can limit Bush's success and has problems w/ White, that makes me think that White is a better pro prospect.
Here is the way I see it.AustinJB said:
If there is five seconds left in a basketball game and on one side you have Tracy McGrady and on other side you have David Wesly. The defense is obviously going to make Wesly be the one to beat them by double teaming McGrady or somthing. Here is the question do you try and fake out the defense by giving the ball to Wesly or do you give the ball to your best and most trusted player McGrady. Personally im giving the ball to McGrady.
AustinJB
Rookie
Bubbajwp said:
Are you agreeing w/ me or trying to make a point against me??
I'd give the ball to McGrady too....that is what Pete did b/c White was the "McGrady" in that game. White was the one coming up big all day....not Bush. Which, again...makes me wonder who will be better in the NFL.
IMO Pete made White the McGrady in that game before the game ever started.AustinJB said:Are you agreeing w/ me or trying to make a point against me??
I'd give the ball to McGrady too....that is what Pete did b/c White was the "McGrady" in that game. White was the one coming up big all day....not Bush. Which, again...makes me wonder who will be better in the NFL.
AustinJB
Rookie
Bubbajwp said:
I respectfully disagree....I think it was the fact that White was running right through the middle of the Texas defense and getting huge chunks of yds and Bush was less than spectacular.
Even if he did, you must ask yourself why such a good coach would make such a decision...maybe he knew that many of Bush's weapons were negated if he was playing a fast defense. After all, Texas had to worry about Bush catching the ball too...as well as running it...he was a double threat in that game but Texas' speed could contain it. What makes you think that NFL defenses won't be able to stop it just b/c he's a double threat?
IMO Pete had a couple of questionable calls like the timeout during the 2 point conversion.
The only thing I can say about NFL defense stopping Bush's outside running game is that RB's in the NFL can make it to the outside and most of them are not as fast or quick as Bush. Also on a side note IMO if defenses are worried about bush getting to the outside then it should be easier for him to run up the middle. Also if we do draft bush I want to see alot of misdirection plays and screens.
The only thing I can say about NFL defense stopping Bush's outside running game is that RB's in the NFL can make it to the outside and most of them are not as fast or quick as Bush. Also on a side note IMO if defenses are worried about bush getting to the outside then it should be easier for him to run up the middle. Also if we do draft bush I want to see alot of misdirection plays and screens.
Bubbajwp said:
In this case, you'd want your second best player on the field to at-least be a decoy.......
for USC, I'd have to assume that was Jarrette, 'cause Reggie wasn't there.
Bubbajwp said:
the only thing questionable about the two calls, is WTF was Pete Caroll thinking. On this one, maybe he was thinking Texas would take one, and try for another touchdown to wint he game.... he didn't do the math and realize that two plus a field goal would win the game. He must have thought Texas was going to try an onside after getting the PAT, and try for another touchdown.
With Reggie on the sideline....... he just tought he was tougher than Texas, and he was going to Ram it home..... he must not have noticed the change of personel on the Texas side. Putting Reggie in the backfield as a decoy may have enabled LenDale to pick up that first.......
.... but we'll never know.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Bamboo said:
C'mon folks have a little objectivity. On the clip Bush is running to a spot where a ball already in the air will land. It isn't going to serve any purpose at that point for him to turn on the burners and out run the ball as well as the LB.
infantrycak said:
Kelson was on bush the entire game.
Kelson isnt some ordinary LB, he was the #1 safety recruit in the nation out of lamar HS and is about 215. not exactly your everyday lb in that he can run a 4.45. He played VERY impressively and was mainly responsible for Bush's small impact in the game
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
stevo3883 said:
Geez, I am not commenting on Kelson at all or taking anything away from him, but that clip doesn't show anything about Bush's speed as he is clearly waiting up for a ball. Heck Kelson could have out run that ball it appears.
TreWardTxn
Waterboy
Everybody wants to talk about the matchup problems that Bush could command for an offense. Well, we saw in that one play, against an LB with NFL potential (at the LB spot) sending Bush deep will not be the money play we all hope it will be. I've been a Broncos fan for years, and I have seen a lot more PA passes to the FB than the RB, and that is because the RB commands the attention of the D due to his running ability. Unless Kubiak has some new wrinkles he has never quite displayed, then I doubt that would be a HUGE part of the offense. But lets talk about the matchup problems a tall, aware, strong bodied, ultra-mobile QB would possess. If the offense can get just 3 yds on 1st and 2 on 2nd down, that puts them at 3 and 5. Please tell me, what defensive coordinator in the league would NOT SPY on that QB, effectively eliminating one (or more if in zone) of his defenders from the play. I would remind people that in this offense, any motioning of the RB out the backfield signals pass, whereas the dual threat of the QB keeps the D guessing, creating matchup difficulties across the field. Whether people like guys like Vick, McNabb, and others or not, they're ability to pick up the first down when the called play doesn't work as planned leads to extra plays, which wears down defenses, which makes teams more likely to be scored on and keeps their D off the field, a quick fix for a bad defense. I like that set of matchups too...
TreWardTxn said:
Not only that, but your Safety is going to be frozen for an extra second to make sure the ball will come out of the QBs hands....
DRAMA
Rookie
Reggie Bush is now no faster than avg LB's in college? It has definitely sunk to 'stupid' proportions now. VY vrs Bush was actually, at one time, a pretty good debate but when people say he's no better than some scrub linebacker? Come on. These arguments hurt your cause alot. So I guess since Deion wasn't intercepting passes that means was not shutting down an entire side of the field and that he sucked? Right?
Spin it however you like but here's the fact of the matter - Bush is LIGHTNING quick and fast, he has great vision, is a HARD worker from what every person has said and he understands the game at such a high level. Defensive Co's WILL scheme to stop this guy - period! I wish people would stop saying that they won't. (Yes - I like Vince...had to throw that in for the Reggie-blinder people). Like the other poster said, why would Reggie outrun the ball? To show he's faster than some scrub? NFL or not - there's NO linebacker in the country that is as fast or quick as Bush. There is no argument there.
He poses matchup problems. You draft him because he CAN one-step CUT, because he ALREADY has better hands and runs better routes than most WR's (At least on our team), because he DOES pick up blocks, because he CAN run through arm tacklers, because he CAN line up wide, because he CAN return kicks if need be, because he CAN be a decoy, because he CAN be a leader, because he IS marketable, because he WILL start on day 1, because he is compared to the greatest who've ever played at the COLLEGE (I know...) level, because IMHO, he WILL make others better......AND.....
....because HE ACTUALLY MAY take it to the house. I mean, other teams schemed for Mathis as a freaking returner. Just think how excited we were, or at least I was, every time they kicked off to Mathis. I just loved watching what MAY happen. With Bush, and Young to some degree, it will be like almost every down of the game. I like Vince but I don't believe in running QB's - scrmabling QB's but NOT running QB's. He may indeed prove me totally wrong but as for scheming against a player, defenses will do that against BUSH from play 1 of the 2006-7 season.
Spin it however you like but here's the fact of the matter - Bush is LIGHTNING quick and fast, he has great vision, is a HARD worker from what every person has said and he understands the game at such a high level. Defensive Co's WILL scheme to stop this guy - period! I wish people would stop saying that they won't. (Yes - I like Vince...had to throw that in for the Reggie-blinder people). Like the other poster said, why would Reggie outrun the ball? To show he's faster than some scrub? NFL or not - there's NO linebacker in the country that is as fast or quick as Bush. There is no argument there.
He poses matchup problems. You draft him because he CAN one-step CUT, because he ALREADY has better hands and runs better routes than most WR's (At least on our team), because he DOES pick up blocks, because he CAN run through arm tacklers, because he CAN line up wide, because he CAN return kicks if need be, because he CAN be a decoy, because he CAN be a leader, because he IS marketable, because he WILL start on day 1, because he is compared to the greatest who've ever played at the COLLEGE (I know...) level, because IMHO, he WILL make others better......AND.....
....because HE ACTUALLY MAY take it to the house. I mean, other teams schemed for Mathis as a freaking returner. Just think how excited we were, or at least I was, every time they kicked off to Mathis. I just loved watching what MAY happen. With Bush, and Young to some degree, it will be like almost every down of the game. I like Vince but I don't believe in running QB's - scrmabling QB's but NOT running QB's. He may indeed prove me totally wrong but as for scheming against a player, defenses will do that against BUSH from play 1 of the 2006-7 season.
Wow Drama............ why all the drama........
I agree that Bush is faster now, than most LBs.... but he's got to get past them first. If he's trying to get to the corner, LBs have the advantage of picking the angle they attack him at....... and getting past them isn't the same as getting past a LB at the College level. You don't have to be as fast as Reggie if he's moving towards the sideline, you just have to be fast enough not to let him turn it upfield.
But..... I'm not like those guys, I think his game will translate well to the pros....... i just don't think RB is a need on this team. I can make a better argument for needing a QB, than I can a RB.
I agree that Bush is faster now, than most LBs.... but he's got to get past them first. If he's trying to get to the corner, LBs have the advantage of picking the angle they attack him at....... and getting past them isn't the same as getting past a LB at the College level. You don't have to be as fast as Reggie if he's moving towards the sideline, you just have to be fast enough not to let him turn it upfield.
But..... I'm not like those guys, I think his game will translate well to the pros....... i just don't think RB is a need on this team. I can make a better argument for needing a QB, than I can a RB.
TreWardTxn
Waterboy
DRAMA said:
Read the post right young man, it doesn't say Bush doesn't have breakaway speed, it says that you won't be able to simply line him up and bomb the ball out there consistently. Bush has way too much developing to do as an in-between the tackles runner to become a perennial deep threat, that's what the whole "money play" thing was about. Second of all, Kelson will be playing on Sunday's, so he is far from scrub, u just didn't know his name before Jan 3. Now, if you want to talk about marketability, fanfare, and leadership then the QB has your guy beat in a landslide (leaders DO NOT sit on the sideline during the biggest play of the year, PERIOD). If you want to talk X's O's; all i'm saying is, I'd rather have the guy who reconfigures the defense everytime he is on the field, and last I checked the QB is there 100%, rather than a guy who might be on the field for 15-20 plays...
michaelm
vox nihili
thunderkyss said:
We all should agree that there are running backs in the NFL and in college that have the ability to get around the corner against NFL talent.
If that's the case, then RB can do it too. He is at least as fast as just about every back in the league, and faster than the vast majority.
The argumant about his speed not translating to the next level is just silly. Silly.
Following is a statement of fact...
Reggie Bush has more speed and quickness than just about every single back currently in the league.
Refute that at your leisure and please provide me a list of current NFL RBs that are either faster or quicker than Bush. And then those that are both...
*edit*
I edited this to clarify that I am not speaking directly to you when referring to Reggie's speed not translating to the next level. You cleary said that you think it will.
That particular statement is aimed at the other posters who make the claim that his speed won't translate well.
bigTEXan8
Rookie
I'm excited to see Reggie Bush play this upcoming season, whether it's with us, or with another team. He has the ability to become a very popular, dominant player. I'm all for draftiing Bush, even though I'd rather trade down. I think Bush is going to work well in this system. With the background of running the ball that Kubiak brings to the Texans, Bush could flourish more with counters and stretchesrather than toss and sweeps. JM
DRAMA
Rookie
thunderkyss said:
It's Friday and I'm not going out tonight....
Someone's got to take the brunt of it......I guess the Reggie/VY is taking it's toll. I'm gonna look like JVG by mid-April.
To 3rdward - I understand that VY is marketable and such in Houston but Reggie is much more hyped around the country. For every time someone here says Bush should've been in there on that play, 10 football guys will say Carroll made a HUGE mistake by not having him in there. Can't blame that on Reggie. Also, if Quinn was coming out this year, VY would be 3rd behind him and Leinart. All I'm saying is this - make no mistake - Bush is the consensus number 1 pick in the nation whereas VY is not a guaranteed top 2 QB simply based on talk that other teams may trade up to get Cutler AHEAD of Vince.
Look, I like Vince ALOT! I like Bush ALOT as well. It comes down to my patience. Now, if we trade Carr for a high pick and let Vince start day 1, I may be more inclined to go VY...MAYBE.....but I certainly do not want to wait for him to play for 2 years. I truly believe this - we can be competitive next year. IMHO, Bush gives us that chance. Whether it be with DD in the backfield when Reggie's in slot, whatever.
However, here's one thing that you can literally bet the house on - Bush will not be on the field for 15 plays. Reggie Bush will be on the field for every single offensive play that the Texans run. I'll give him an occasional breather but for every legitimate play, Bush will be IN on that play.
michaelm said:
Good, because I was about to say....
To me, that's just media talk.... media Hype.... Everybody thought Ricky Williams would go number one, or the first RB at least. didn't happen. If the Texans don't draft Reggie........let's say they hypothetically take D'Brick at the #1 spot(I know it don't make sense) Reggie would drop to #4. If we take Vince @ 1, he drops to 3. and Our RB is better than theirs, and our QB isn't far from theirs.DRAMA said:It's Friday and I'm not going out tonight....
All I'm saying is this - make no mistake - Bush is the consensus number 1 pick in the nation whereas VY is not a guaranteed top 2 QB simply based on talk that other teams may trade up to get Cutler AHEAD of Vince.
We'll be competitive with our current RB lineup......... adding Reggie Bush doesn't change that. our problems are not directly addressed by adding Bush to our lineup. Trade down, get your OL talent, use the extra pick to find you a tightend, or a deffensive starter..... that makes a whole lot more sense than adding a 4th running back to our stable.DRAMA said:
Bamboo said:
If you look at the begining of that play, The Linebacker you talked about wasn't even up on the line or anywhere 10 yards of the line. If he had "decent" speed he could have been stride to stride with anyone, Even Hester or Moss.
Can't even compare this tape, because if Bush cut off his route and Linehart just dish it to him on this play he could have got 15 yards easily, I don't know what down it was or how much they had to go though.
DRAMA
Rookie
I agree with trading down before I pick up a QB. The thing is DD is a good, solid back, Morency may or not be an avg to good back, Wells is a solid backup and a great special teams player, Hollings is a DB.
Bush is going to be a special back IMHO - someone who can do it all. I understand media hype but these guys understand that this kid is something that hasn't happened before. DD, a fourth rounder from OSU, and Wells are not Bush. We can ask ourselves this - would any team in the league trade Reggie Bush to us for those backs? There's a reason IMHO that it would take a Hersel Walker deal to get us to NOT take Reggie. I doubt anyone will even make an offer - that's how much this kid brings to the table. VY is nowhere near the hype outside of Houston other than asking whether or not we're going to take him with our pick.
Lendale White's last carry as a collegiate player gets 3 yards....and uhh.....
Bush is going to be a special back IMHO - someone who can do it all. I understand media hype but these guys understand that this kid is something that hasn't happened before. DD, a fourth rounder from OSU, and Wells are not Bush. We can ask ourselves this - would any team in the league trade Reggie Bush to us for those backs? There's a reason IMHO that it would take a Hersel Walker deal to get us to NOT take Reggie. I doubt anyone will even make an offer - that's how much this kid brings to the table. VY is nowhere near the hype outside of Houston other than asking whether or not we're going to take him with our pick.
Lendale White's last carry as a collegiate player gets 3 yards....and uhh.....
Tom Brady was a 7th round pick, Rod Smith wasn't even drafted, I don't see what you are getting atDRAMA said:
there were a few folks in Pasedena about a month ago saying the same things about Vince. You're crazy, if you can't see that. As soon as the SB is over, the rage will continue, and you'll see it's not just people in Houston............. I'm not in Houston.DRAMA said:
& if frogs had wings........... point is, that's the way the game is played. you don't have to match speed for speed to scheme against it. If Reggie were to cut off his route, is the LB fast enough to get there & break up the pass?? I don't know.... maybe...Daonly said:If you look at the begining of that play, The Linebacker you talked about wasn't even up on the line or anywhere 10 yards of the line. If he had "decent" speed he could have been stride to stride with anyone, Even Hester or Moss.
Can't even compare this tape, because if Bush cut off his route and Linehart just dish it to him on this play he could have got 15 yards easily, I don't know what down it was or how much they had to go though.
TreWardTxn
Waterboy
DRAMA said:It's Friday and I'm not going out tonight....
Someone's got to take the brunt of it......I guess the Reggie/VY is taking it's toll. I'm gonna look like JVG by mid-April.
To 3rdward - I understand that VY is marketable and such in Houston but Reggie is much more hyped around the country. For every time someone here says Bush should've been in there on that play, 10 football guys will say Carroll made a HUGE mistake by not having him in there. Can't blame that on Reggie. Also, if Quinn was coming out this year, VY would be 3rd behind him and Leinart. All I'm saying is this - make no mistake - Bush is the consensus number 1 pick in the nation whereas VY is not a guaranteed top 2 QB simply based on talk that other teams may trade up to get Cutler AHEAD of Vince.
Look, I like Vince ALOT! I like Bush ALOT as well. It comes down to my patience. Now, if we trade Carr for a high pick and let Vince start day 1, I may be more inclined to go VY...MAYBE.....but I certainly do not want to wait for him to play for 2 years. I truly believe this - we can be competitive next year. IMHO, Bush gives us that chance. Whether it be with DD in the backfield when Reggie's in slot, whatever.
However, here's one thing that you can literally bet the house on - Bush will not be on the field for 15 plays. Reggie Bush will be on the field for every single offensive play that the Texans run. I'll give him an occasional breather but for every legitimate play, Bush will be IN on that play.
There is no doubt about whether Reggie Bush would be a top back as far as speed and quickness are concerned. The concern is with his running style and his tendency to want to beat people with speed, rather than read blocks, set them up, and hit holes between the tackles. I'm sorry, but that is a legitimate concern. Also is the concern about his durability, 6'0'' 200 is lightweight for an NFL back, DeAngelo Williams goes 5'10'' 215. If a guy did not carry the load week in and out in college, then how can you say he will do it in the pros? It is proven that he was not the best short yardage back on his own college team, and the same would be true if he came to the Texans next year, so in short yardage sets (arguably the most important downs, as football is a "game of inches") he would likely not be the first or second option (Domanick/Wells or AJ w/the quick hit).
