I could still see it as OB going with Hoyer next season if the Texans end up in the playoffs.
But I honestly think Savage is the the one he's grooming to be starter. So I don't see him drafting a qb next year either.
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Bryan Hoyer Fan Club
- Thread starter Marshall
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But I honestly think Savage is the the one he's grooming to be starter. So I don't see him drafting a qb next year either.
I can try...
Both games against Pittsburgh, the first game against Baltimore, & the first game against Cincinnati his passer rating was over 90, he didn't throw any interceptions.
From our game on he had a passer rating over 62 once in the five games he was allowed to play.
That's the difference between Hoyer having a team around him & not. The numbers look different, but if you remember watching the games, he was ineffective when the game was on the line. The first half of those games, his numbers aren't any different than what they were in Cleveland.
If you're saying this is all part of the development of a 30 year old QB... maybe. If he can do what needs to be done to win this division, playing at a high level while the game is in contention, I'll buy in. Like I said, we're about to find out how good he is. So far, I haven't seen anything I didn't expect.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
Just curious - what are you basing this on?
I can't say right now. When draft time comes around & I actually get around to looking at the QBs in the draft... yeah, I'd be really hot if there's a guy within reach that we don't go get.
I was slightly perturbed when Teddy fell past 19 & we didn't make a move. Especially after the Browns took Manziel at 20. But... OB said he didn't see any difference between Teddy & Savage. That's a bit to swallow after what we've seen Bridgewater do & how we haven't seen much of Savage in the regular season.
But still... I need to get a good look at these guys "everyone" is talking about. I'm already high on Cook, from watching him last year. If he's there & we pass, I'll be upset.
Just a hunch really, but I think most of what I base it on is how he has handled the qb situation these past 2 years.
Now, I would be surprised he takes a qb within the first three rounds, but if he doesn't see much of a difference between Savage and what's available, he may just stick with what he has.
jradMIT
Veteran
I think this all comes down to the O-line and a lesser extent the receivers on the roster. This O-line if it can stay healthy, they might be special, (which sort of proves how bad Blue is but I digress). Any NFL quaterback and even back ups can look decent when given all day to throw. Part of the ineptitude of the early season was because of the unsolidified o-line situation and injuries. So let's not go crazy here every once in a while he'll make a good throw and move in the pocket like last game against the Saints in the TD to Griffin, but really he needs a really high tide to raise his boat. However if the O-line can continue to improve and control the LOS and give him tons of time, he can appear to be a QB capable of winning games. Its really up to everyone else on O to step up their game to cover up his shortcomings.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
What he said.
I hate how so many fans become complacent about mediocre QB play because the team picks up a few wins. The GM and HC should see better.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
What they said. Look, if some weird alchemy takes place this year and we're watching the Texans hoist a Lombardi at the end of it with Brian Hoyer under center (in a sort of Trent Dilfer "Yeah, I rode my defense all the way to a ring" thingy) then I'm still going to think we need a QB. That's not going to change and if the Texans go into 2016 thinking they don't need a QB they're a bunch of dumbasses who need a swift kick in the ass.
I'll be happy. I'll be very happy. I don't think Bucs fans dismiss their Super Bowl win because Brad Johnson was the QB and I don't see Ravens fans apologizing for their win with Dilfer taking the snaps so I'll be happier than a pig in **** and I'll forever have a soft spot in my heart for Brian Hoyer who was able to stay out of the way long enough to not cost us games. I just won't have a soft spot in my head and expect it to happen more than once.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Which is exactly what the Ravens thought and so dumped Dilfer.
I agree with all of the above and the posters you quoted.
Our defense is improving, but they are nowhere near at the levels of the 2000 Ravens and the 2002 Buccaneers. Those were some of the greatest defenses in NFL history and almost always two of the defenses in top 10 lists of all time. You NEVER saw those defenses down 41-0 and 42-0, much less in the same season. People are starting to respect the 2015 Texans defense. Teams were SCARED of those Bucs and Ravens defenses. Huge difference.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
Agreed, and the good news is there is precedent for moving on from a Super Bowl winning QB immediately or very shortly after winning that Super Bowl. Trent Dilfer was a Seattle Seahawk the season after the Ravens win, and Brad Johnson was benched for performance four games into the Bucs first season after the win, and never played for them again. The bad news is that Dilfer was replaced by Elvis Grbac, and Brad Johnson was replaced by Chris Simms/Brian Griese.
I look forward to seeing how the Texans deal with their post-Super Bowl dilemma.
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dream_team
Hall of Fame
I don't think anyone in here is complacent about mediocre QB play? I don't think anyone in here is saying we need to lock up Hoyer long-term to be our guy.
This is my official stance:
- Hoyer was an upgrade over Fitz
- Hoyer is playing as well (or better) as a 4mil QB should
- Hoyer + dominant defense can win SB
- I hope the FO has plans on improving the QB position in the offseason
I can get behind those two.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Pretty much..its an objective assessment of his play thus far...lord forbid that.......the fact that some of it is ACTUALLY complimentary though has some folks in here
.
Pretty much..its an objective assessment of his play thus far...lord forbid that.......the fact that some of it is ACTUALLY complimentary though has some folks in here
Hoyer's history, the thing that can be objectively analyzed, is stretches of consistent play punctuated by failure. Those critical are basing analysis on his history, not blind hope and optimistic faith.
It remains to be seen if better coaching and a better team can provide Hoyer with a foundation to avoid his own historical tendencies.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Not so much:
Russell Wilson was to have been paid $1.7 mil before Seattle extended him early.
Derek Carr - $1.2 mil
See the thing is a $4 mil FA QB ($5.25 actually) is ordinarily called backup or placeholder for a rookie. $4 mil starters should be on rookie contracts. Otherwise fans and HCs are invoking Dilfer.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
This point bears repeating. Being a "dominant" D as in one of the better ones in given year doesn't mean you can get by all the way to a SB with a Dilfer, Johnson...or Hoyer. Those were epic Ds, the JJ Watt’s of Ds - all time greats.
Ravens 10.3 ppg allowed (held 4 teams to 23 total pts in the playoffs)
Buccaneers 12.2 ppg (same avg in playoffs)
Texans 21.3 ppg - we aren't in that league.
Pretty much..its an objective assessment of his play thus far...lord forbid that.......the fact that some of it is ACTUALLY complimentary though has some folks in here
There's nothing objective about saying Hoyer is an upgrade over Fitz.
Nothing objective about saying he's playing as well as a $4M QB should be playing (especially when he's being paid more than $4M)
Nothing objective about saying you can win a Super Bowl with Hoyer & a dominant D (never been done before. Alex Smith is a better QB than Brian Hoyer & he's played with some pretty good defenses. Never made it to the Super Bowl).
All opinions.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
Sorry, 5.25mil QB. But that's my point, he's getting paid like a backup QB. He's playing at (or better) than that level IMO.
Totally off subject & very little bearing here, but the Texans have given up, on average, 8.73 ppg over the last 4 games (including games against the 4th, 7th, & 13th scoring offenses).
There's a big "if" included with the "Brian Hoyer can win a Super Bowl" camp & that "if" includes our team playing like that from here on out.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
I think we can all agree that at the beginning of the season, the defense was horrendous. But something happened since the Miami game and we've been looking pretty dominant. 8.75 ppg since then. That's against some good offenses too with the Saints & Bengals. To me, that's a dominant defense. If they can keep this up, well that's another question.
We've had two back ups come in & play just as well, imo, if not better than Brian Hoyer.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
Correct. Looks like we posted basically the same thing at the same time.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
Valid argument. We differ in opinions, that's fine. I prefer Hoyer over anyone else we've had in the past two season (except Savage maybe).
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Says the guy who thinks a guy that was sitting at home unemployed just 2-3 weeks ago is a better option to go with over Hoyer..that is if i'm interpreting your sig correctly.....
... But i'm not going to go round and round with you guys on this again.
The fact remains that he's been far from the achilles heel that everyone thought he'd be and as it turns out the guy everyone wanted to be the starter at the beginning of the season was more of a detriment to this team than Hoyer has been. I just don't get & won't ever get why everyone is so terrified of this guy having success here with this team...why it's imperative that he be given no credit for anything? I mean if the team is winning, who in the hell cares who's playing qb..or any positon for that matter?
I care who's playing QB. Winning a few games in spite of having the definition of mediocre at QB is far from a formula for success.
No one is stopping you from doing cartwheels at that formula though ... enjoy.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I think we can agree that having just 1 dominant or elite anything doesn't mean you can get by all the way to a SB if you're deficient in any other critical area. As much as Peyton has dominated the league over the last 20 years, his comparatively speaking lesser skilled down-syndrome looking brother has more rings than he does. His career otherwise has been largely forgettable.
Says the guy who thinks a guy that was sitting at home unemployed just 2-3 weeks ago is a better option to go with over Hoyer..that is if i'm interpreting your sig correctly.....
Well, to be honest, I think the only reason Hoyer is here is because of nepotism.
in that the rest of the team has had serious issues... yeah, you got me there. But the defense looks to have turnt around. The running game seems to be getting better. It won't be long before the bottleneck is at QB, just like it was last year.
& while Hoyer won't be losing any games for us, he's not winning any either. & that's fine. I've got no problem with that, as long as we call it what it is. To say he's good, great, better than anyone, the best we have at the moment... sorry, I'm going to balk.
I'm not asking for Yates or Weeden to start. My point, is that it does not matter. Hoyer isn't doing anything to give us an advantage over the other guys, unless you think they are turnover machines, which we don't know. Hoyer hasn't shown any mastery of any system as far as I know & he's played like crap against average defenses. He looked good~ okay against a historically bad defense, but that's it so far.
We're looking for a needle in a haystack. That needles been found before in a stack that backed up one of the greatest of all times. Look at Matt Hasselbeck. Not a great QB, but he had a few good years in Seattle. He was a solid starter.
Rarely has anyone ever found that needle in the stack that backed up one of the greatest of all times, then couldn't beat Charlie Batch out of a job, or unseat Ryan Lindley, or lost his job to Johnny Manziel.
So why look?
Terrified??? I'm begging for him to have some success. I'd love nothing more. Any other year, you'd be complaining that the Texans don't have a quality win. We beat the scrubs & lost to the good teams. That's all I'm saying about Hoyer.
Doing backflips because of Hoyer's garbage time prowess is like getting excited that Brian Cushing got a sack after the QB ran into him running away from Jj Watt.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
The formula for success is winning with a stout defense and complete team...contrary to popular belief elite qb play not necessarily needed So yeah, i'll take Eli & Joe Flacco's largely forgettable careers if it means my team gets rings during their tenure.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
You're arguing about which is better between pig crap or dog crap. No matter what, it's still crap.
http://www.texanstalk.com/posts/2555734/
Yes, a football team can win a Super Bowl IF there are things that fall into place, and epic things at that, with a Brian Hoyer or Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson. It took the greatest defense ever for Dilfer. Nobody is questioning that. The problem is thinking those QBs are good. They're not. Yes they can win with a great, and I mean GREAT team around them, but they are not good QBs.
You don't have to have an elite QB. You do need a good one though. The Texans do not have that. Haven't since 2012.
http://www.texanstalk.com/posts/2555734/
Yes, a football team can win a Super Bowl IF there are things that fall into place, and epic things at that, with a Brian Hoyer or Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson. It took the greatest defense ever for Dilfer. Nobody is questioning that. The problem is thinking those QBs are good. They're not. Yes they can win with a great, and I mean GREAT team around them, but they are not good QBs.
You don't have to have an elite QB. You do need a good one though. The Texans do not have that. Haven't since 2012.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Again with the false "elite QB" argument. Folks aren't talking elite, they're talking about having a top 3rd of the league, good Schaub or better level QB. Nobody is saying you have to have Brady or Rodgers.
Brian Hoyer just went 56/84 for 563 and 4 tds to 2 picks against Cincy, the Jets, and NO, in the regular season. And that seems to be a high water mark.
If you're holding out hope that he turns into 251/408 for 3,213 and 26 to 2 during postseason runs like those guys did, well, you continue to hope.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Context brother...dude wasn't given the chance to beat out any of those guys & we all know about the johnny manziel saga.
It's rare finding that needle in the haystack PERIOD is what you're missing.....elite or even good qb's don't have stamps on their forehead that say "im gonna be good". truth be told, history has shown that there's no rhyme or reason to finding those guys no matter what folks say & of course you know, they don't grow on trees & it takes a lot of luck.
The best franchise qb this town has ever had was brought over from the CFL..that hadn't happened before..The next franchise guy this team got was found backing up another franchise guy who was average at best as a qb & couldn't pass the ball for ****. Dallas found their current franchise guy undrafted & put him on the practice squad. NO found their guy coming off a career-threatening injury. The pats found their guy in the 6th round. Favre couldn't beat out billy joe tolliver in ATL before the Packers got him. The rams found their guy bagging groceries..etc..etc..
Just b/c it's never been done before doesn't mean that it can't happen.
What do you mean? The Stealers picked him up when Roethlisberger & then Byron Leftwhich got hurt. He practiced with them for a few weeks backing up Charlie Batch. Batch didn't play well at all, however when Ben was healthy, they ditched Hoyer, keeping Batch. If Hoyer showed any signs of being a starting QB in this league, they would have (or at least I would have) dropped Batch. Especially since Ben gets hurt so much.
Same thing in Arizona. After he got dropped by the Stealers, he was picked up in Arizona. Warner & Stanton got hurt & the Cardinals started Hoyer. They could have kept Hoyer instead of Lindley(sp) who I'm sure they don't think is the future, or Stanton. They went with Lindley's upside & Stanton, who is just better.
Cleveland does some crazy things. But I don't know if letting Hoyer go was one of them after the Steelers & the Cardinals (with injury prone QBs mind you) let him go as well.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
No, you need a qb/team playing well going into the playoffs is what you need. Eli, Flacco & Kapernick we're all guys that got into a groove going into the playoffs & rode that groove all the way to the SB..Eli and Flacco have been largely mediocore their entire careers apart from those runs...We see what Kapernick has turned into...
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
Well there's where the problem is. Defining what a good QB is. Kaepernick was never a good QB. Good athlete, hell, great athlete, but not a good QB. He had a TEAM around him.
If we're talking about ONE season, THIS season, yeah, if the Texans can keep up the defensive intensity they've had the last 4 games, which would be almost Raven-esque, then yes, they have just as good a shot as anyone, even with Hoyer.
If we're talking about being a factor year in and year out, you need a QB.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Both those teams had starters already in Ben & Warner/Palmer...Batch had been a back up there for umpteen years in Pitt..he knew the system & was the incumbent & there was no way they were gonna ditch him for Hoyer mainly b/c of those factors. He was only brought in b/c they needed someone who could spot start in case Batch also got hurt. Pretty much the same thing in AZ. yeah they could've kept him, but you said it yourself they went with what they deemed was the guy who had more upside in Stanton (a 2nd round pick to Det a few years earlier) & a guy they drafted themselves in Lindley who'd already been in the system. In both situations, he was fighting for a back up spot..like I said, no real chance to be a starter.
& if you think Cleveland fans wouldn't love to have Hoyer right now, you're kidding yourself. I'm not even sure any of their qbs have 2 wins credited to them on the season. They don't know what the hell is going on over there.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
I don't think anyone disagrees with you here.
You still need a QB that can make some plays (unless you have the rare historic defense, in which case it's just don't lose the game).
For instance, Flacco went on a run in the playoffs that tied a Joe Montana record (11 TD/0 INT). Eli and Kap were also clutch in their runs, as well. This is not an argument that they are "elite", but they have shown that they can be consistently good under pressure. This is where doubt about Hoyer comes into play. Being good over a four game stretch should not be a foundation for assumption that he can do it in December and January. He's got to prove it before many of us can believe in him.
How would you go about addressing the QB situation this offseason? I'm not being a smart ass. but I keep seeing members say this like any football team can just stroll on down to QB's-R-US and take their pick of the litter. That's simply not the case. So, tell me your answer.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
If the Texans would go to QBs-R-Us and actually walk out of the store with something in their cart for a change instead of trying to pick up one in the $5 QB bin at Wal-Mart, that would be a start.
No one has said finding a QB is easy. When you're not even trying, it's even harder. If they don't draft a QB this off-season, we play this same stupid game we've played for 3 years again next year with Hoyer, Cassel, Weeden, or whoever the scrub QB du jour is next year.
nope
Do you REALLY think O'Brien is suddenly going to change his stripes and go QB shopping in the next draft??
I don't.
So run to CostCo and get a pallet of pink soap because if Hoyer is the starter in just three more wins, he'll be back next season.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
The question was about Hoyer being as good as Alex Smith.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
He'll be back next year. Your not out on a limb there. But dont fool yourself on hoyer...he's a 2-3 year bandaid at best. If ob doesnt find or at least TRY to find a franchise qb in his 3rd year...i dunno, think i'll give up on him completely. Almost everyone in the city knew we needed a qb 2 years ago. Well, except for ob.
If we win the division, there's no way O'Brien is going to draft a QB in the first three rounds.
If we win a wild card spot,there's no way O'Brien is going to draft a QB in the first three rounds.
If we miss the playoffs on a tie breaker,there's no way O'Brien is going to draft a QB in the first three rounds.
If the season ended today,there's no way O'Brien is going to draft a QB in the first three rounds.
No. Instead we're going to compete in practice & get better at playing complimentary football. We've seen how we can win games playing good complimentary football. & until we're top 5 on defense, offense, & special teams, we're not drafting a QB in the first three rounds.
If we win a wild card spot,there's no way O'Brien is going to draft a QB in the first three rounds.
If we miss the playoffs on a tie breaker,there's no way O'Brien is going to draft a QB in the first three rounds.
If the season ended today,there's no way O'Brien is going to draft a QB in the first three rounds.
No. Instead we're going to compete in practice & get better at playing complimentary football. We've seen how we can win games playing good complimentary football. & until we're top 5 on defense, offense, & special teams, we're not drafting a QB in the first three rounds.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
Dear mods, please add a dislike option. Thanks.
Sounds just like that Kubiak guy.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Huh?
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Hoping is the operative word. Expecting it to go there would have been foolish.