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Brooks Reed
- Thread starter BSofA04
- Start date
The franshise tag, imo, is the wrong way to go. If the tag is $16 million that will mean his cap number will be $16 million. We need to sign him to a long term contract give him $16 million + guaranteed where we can pro-rate that over several years.
A creative GM can get it done, sign Foster, & bring in whatever FA we'll need.
But it's getting harder & harder to identify where our needs are, meaning we'll probably be looking to fill areas of depth.
I'm starting to think that Clay Matthews and not Brooks Reed is the great impersonator ? Matthews had one good season and right now in his third year in the league and has only 3 sacks, while Reed has 4 even though he's played far less in 2011 than the packers LB.
SAMURAITEXAN
All Pro
Things are changing here. Who would thought someone say something like this. I am enjoying every minute of our current situation. Let us take to the playoffs!!! Texans' fans deserve this.
Go Texans!!!
Yankee_In_TX
Dance Lindsay!
That would be nice, I just have a gut feeling there's going to be one palm too many out stretched in the off season. I hope I am wrong!
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
In a perfect world, we can keep Mario and pay Foster his big contract. In the same perfect world, I watch them both play for us while Jennifer Connelly rubs my feet and Scarlett Johansson feeds me grapes.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Again, You guys can say what you want, but those other guys simply aren't getting off with Reed like they were when mario was in there. & what's more is that we've hit a soft part of the schedule where that should've been more prevalent...It hasn't happened. Take what you will from that, but the evidence is there.
You guys actually think that we're going to let a proven talent like Mario go b/c a rookie has shown a few flashes? Get real.
#1... Mario's rookie contract was surprisingly cap friendly for a #1 overall pick which is how he got into the picture for #1 overall in 2006 in the 1st place. So why then would you guys think he wouldn't sign another cap-friendly contract with him coming off a season ending injury where he has 0 leverage?
#2, Mario's a team guy & always has been. In fact, coming out of college this was 1 of the pluses about him...he'll do what you ask him to do...
If Reed continues to excel & we're unable to justify keeping him off the field, the more likely scenario is that Mario will be resigned with a cap friendly contract, he'll go back down on the line @ DE & a few other less significant guys will be let go of to compensate. I'm thinking Cody & or Smith could be the odd guys out. Hell even Meco could be at risk considering his lessened role on the defense & the fact that sharpton has steadily improved & was coming on before his injury. Come the draft in 2012, we draft mostly for depth.
But this is ONLY if Reed comes on like gangbusters. i'm talking 12 sacks gangbusters. What he's doing now is cool, but it's not to the point where it justifies inserting him into the starting lineup over Mario imo.
You guys actually think that we're going to let a proven talent like Mario go b/c a rookie has shown a few flashes? Get real.
#1... Mario's rookie contract was surprisingly cap friendly for a #1 overall pick which is how he got into the picture for #1 overall in 2006 in the 1st place. So why then would you guys think he wouldn't sign another cap-friendly contract with him coming off a season ending injury where he has 0 leverage?
#2, Mario's a team guy & always has been. In fact, coming out of college this was 1 of the pluses about him...he'll do what you ask him to do...
If Reed continues to excel & we're unable to justify keeping him off the field, the more likely scenario is that Mario will be resigned with a cap friendly contract, he'll go back down on the line @ DE & a few other less significant guys will be let go of to compensate. I'm thinking Cody & or Smith could be the odd guys out. Hell even Meco could be at risk considering his lessened role on the defense & the fact that sharpton has steadily improved & was coming on before his injury. Come the draft in 2012, we draft mostly for depth.
But this is ONLY if Reed comes on like gangbusters. i'm talking 12 sacks gangbusters. What he's doing now is cool, but it's not to the point where it justifies inserting him into the starting lineup over Mario imo.
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
If time were to stop right now, you'd be absolutely 100% correct. But we've got 7+ games left to play. Young guys like Reed, Watt, Barwin... you haven't seen their best football yet & I think that's why people are so excited about them.
The fact is that Reed was drafted in the event that Mario couldn't make the transition, or that Barwin couldn't make the transition, or that Barwin wasn't ready to play, or that Mario got injured.
So if the front 5 continues to play like they did Sunday, progress & bring that kind of production against a quality opponent (Atlanta, Cincy, Carolina) then we won't be the only ones talking about Mario's value to this team.
Leach had value to this team, other teams had more value for him & what he brought..... that's just the way it goes sometime.
I like Mario... I've got 3 jerseys, red, white & blue.... I don't want to see him continue his production for another team.
But it is what it is. Regardless how good our pass rush looks without him, it will be better with him... so we'll always have room for him on the team. But if the team decides they can find better use of the money... oh well.
But personally, I think it's silly to be making that decision now.
edit After reading the rest of your post, it seems like we agree more than we disagree.
However, regardless of what Reed does, Barwin would be the odd man out, unless he's into double digit sacks as well.
Yankee_In_TX
Dance Lindsay!
I really don't think anyone would poo poo keeping Mario and Foster - but I think you are making a BIG assumption with that plausibility of that.
I haven't read the entire thread, but I hope people are saying Brooks is better than Mario right now today (injury aside).
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
Isn't the salary cap suppose to increase in 2013? Franchise Mario, give Arian a contract, then resign Mario the next offseason.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
I asked you this before - which of his seasons was that one good season? The ten sack season where he was runner up for DROY, or the 13.5 sack season where he was All Pro and an integral part of a Super Bowl winning defense?
You gotta a gotcha - I'd forgotten he had a double-digit sack total his rookie year ? OK, when I'm wrong (or mistaken) I'm wrong - it's a bit too early for him to be written off but what is his problem with this years low productivety ? Injuries ?
VTexan
Rookie
Why would you franchise Mario? 16 million for a player who is coming off a season ending injury? It is more likely that we will negotiate a contract with Mario (i'm thinking along the lines of 10-12 million a year) and then slap the franchise tag on Foster. Mario knows no team will pay him 16 million and I really do think he was enjoying this season under Wade. Being a 3-4 rushing OLB gives him more freedom than a 4-3 DE.
I´m not so sure that no other team would overpay him... what I would do is try to give Mario a contract with a nice base salary and heavy bonuses (playing x amount of games - a bonus for each sack...). You don`t just let Mario leave - he brings too much to the table...
But Brooks Reed might be the real deal. Clay had 10 sacks his rookie season - Reeds already has 4 in only 4 starts. I´m not saying he is gonna be at the same level, but he sure seems to be a force to be reckoned with. And with Barwin and hopefully Mario, that is one fine pass rush at OLB.
We sure got great production out of our 1st and 2nd round rookies this year. Now it`d be nice if Harris could show up as well...
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I keep seeing this here and hearing it on the radio. Foster will not be an unrestricted free agent this coming off-season. The franchise tag isn't going to be used on him. He doesn't have enough accrued NFL seasons to get beyond the other options.
I'm not sure that any team is going to shell out big bucks to sign Mario. He's had a pretty extensive injury history even though he's managed to play through most of them. I would love to see us work out a cap friendly deal that keeps him a Texan for the next 5-7 years. Brooks Reed has been an unexpected surprise, but just because he's played pretty well doesn't mean we should just let Mario walk. The ability to rotate Mario, Reed, and Barwin is something I would love to see next year. A year of off-season work and these guys will be absolute beasts a year from now in the defense.
I believe we can slap a restricted tender on him, but there is no way Foster shows up next year without a new contract. I applaud him for showing up and playing under the crappy contract he has now, but he's almost even said as much that it won't happen again next year.
YoungTexanFan
All Pro
Why is it only one or the other? The Giants win games because of their pass rush with a rotation of DEs (they play a 4-3) and the Patriots won with their pass rush with a rotation of LBs. Since when is having another pass rushing threat a bad thing? Rotate them. Let Phillips get creative w/a blitz using all three.
Now, none of us know if Reed or Barwin are the real deal. They have looked good so far, but it's halfway through their first season (significant season for Barwin at least). Reed still might hit the rookie wall. I'm a big supporter of his going back to his days at Arizona when I would fly out there twice a semester to visit my gf. But honestly, all three of our OLB options have question marks. I don't think Mario is going to get 16 million, but he's earned a good contract for his production over his career and the production he was having this year. The honest truth is that having all three guys is our best option.
Now, none of us know if Reed or Barwin are the real deal. They have looked good so far, but it's halfway through their first season (significant season for Barwin at least). Reed still might hit the rookie wall. I'm a big supporter of his going back to his days at Arizona when I would fly out there twice a semester to visit my gf. But honestly, all three of our OLB options have question marks. I don't think Mario is going to get 16 million, but he's earned a good contract for his production over his career and the production he was having this year. The honest truth is that having all three guys is our best option.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
What if we signed Lamar Woodley instead of Mario? Would you be happy with that? If we are going to spend big money at OLB, I'd rather spend it on a true OLB. Frankly, I'd be more gungho to keep Mario if we were considering moving him into the DLline rotation. I just don't think he makes sense at OLB at the price he'll command. Though, I do acknowledge, he was playing well early this season.
TimeKiller
Guest
Well, besides the obvious, it's the Browns...etc... it sure is nice to see these 2 2nd round guys Barwin and Reed showing up BIG in games. 3 sacks between them, a multitude of hits (boy Reed brings the WOOD) and countless other pressures. How many times did they slap McCoy on the back? Like every other play?
Mario's role is obvious now. If these 2 can keep it up, they've got a chance to mold something special into form. Mario's ability at OLB is nice but they have to see him at DE in the 3-4 base occasionally now. With Barwin and Reed outside, Smith and Mario inside give the QB fits AND it opens up the deception/Mario playing DE it doesn't matter that he's coming every down.
Mario's role is obvious now. If these 2 can keep it up, they've got a chance to mold something special into form. Mario's ability at OLB is nice but they have to see him at DE in the 3-4 base occasionally now. With Barwin and Reed outside, Smith and Mario inside give the QB fits AND it opens up the deception/Mario playing DE it doesn't matter that he's coming every down.
He has no noe opposite of him. Teams are truely focusing on stopping him from getting to the QB. All the "Mario is double teamed all the time" excuse makers should watch a green bay game and focus on CM3 to see what game planning against a particular player is really all about.
NitroGSXR
Super Sic #58
I knew it was going to be something like this but don't really understand what our options are with him? Tender?
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
I think the Panthers letting Julius Peppers become a UFA probably meets this criteria, but I agree, there's several things that could happen with Mario, and him becoming unrestricted is likely the last thing the Texans want to see.
Here is the list of things that could happen with Mario listed by my best guess at what the Texans order of preference would be.
1. Agree to a long term deal prior to the start of the 2012 off-season.
2. Franchise him, and negotiate a long-term deal prior to the start of the 2012 season.
3. Franchise him (non-exclusive) and match another teams contract offer (unlikely).
4. Franchise him and let him play the 2012 season under that guaranteed one year deal.
5. Franchise him (non-exclusive) and choose not to match another teams contract offer and get two first round draft picks (also unlikely).
6. Franchise him and trade him ala Jared Allen or Matt Cassel.
7. Let him become an unrestricted free agent.
I also believe the estimates of a $16 Million franchise tag amount may be a bit low. I know for a fact that the prior years salary that must be increased by 20% includes more than just the base salary (Pro-rata portion of any signing bonus as an example). I know Jim Trotter from SI has indicated it would be in excess of $20 Million. I don't know exactly how much it will be, and I'm not going to argue, I'm just going to say I believe it's possible it could be more than most on this board have indicated.
In spite of my questions about what the amount of the franchise tag will be, I will say that I believe if necessary (If item 1 from the above list fails to happen), the Texans will put the franchise tag on him regardless of the amount. The one thing we know for a fact is that whatever Mario's 2011 cap amount is, franchising him will increase that number by less than $4 Million for 2012. While $4 Million is admittedly a big number, I would ask you, if the Texans are willing to let him count anywhere from $15 to $18 Million against the 2011 cap, are they going to let him walk and get nothing in return beyond a possible late third round compensatory pick, when for less than that $4 Million amount, they can provide themselves several options that provide far more value than one late third round pick. Throw in the fact that there will be some sort of increase to the total cap next season, and I absolutely don't believe they will.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
There is no way the Texans can franchise him next season. It would put them over the cap and prevent them from signing Foster, extending Schaub, etc... I'm almost positive they will have to sign him to a long term deal or let him walk. Remember, though, that the Texans could get some compensation back for Mario if he walks, depending on how the rest of free agency goes (compensatory selections). Likely though, the Texans wouldn't get draft picks but would have some spending money for free agency.
Perhaps they could franchise him then trade him. However, they better have a deal in place, otherwise they could end up in a very sticky situation.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Huge difference in that signing Foster will not take up so much of your cap space. I like Mario but if we can save apprx $10-14 million in cap space plus get high picks why not? I think if we discuss any player being on team we need to consider the whole enchalada.
badboy
Hall of Fame
You do not have to franchise Foster. He is an exclusive rights player and no other team can negotiate with him without Texans permission. With Tate doing well (similar to Reed), Foster should sign a reasonable deal as he has little choice. Foster's longevity should increase with Tate on the team.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I believe badboy is correct and Foster is ERFA next year because his first year was not accrued. Worst case scenario he could be retained with an RFA high tender of around $1.5 mil.
You keep injecting Foster like it is a must do this coming off-season or we lose him and it just isn't true. Also Matt Schaub is signed for 2012.
I think Tate is a better runner than Foster, though Arian might be a better
pass-receiver. So I'd rather have Tate over the long-term because he
not only runs harder than Foster, but he's also a more dangerous long-threat. Now if we could get a high to mid second-rounder for Arian I'd move him, though even young vet backs like Arian aren't very marketable generally speaking.
badboy
Hall of Fame
FYI, Mario's current salary is $13.8m. That + 20% ($2.76m) = $16.56million. If that is the agreement for next season there is no bonus & that will be the cap hit. He does have one year of prorated money in this season and that's why the cap was a bit higher than just his base.
Errant Hothy
Hypermediocrity
I still think this defense needs a speed rusher opposite either Reed/Williams/Barwin. Reed and Williams (pre-injury) have both out played Barwin so far this season, but none of them have the explosiveness that defines the elite 34 pass rushers.
He's not going anywhere. He can not talk to other teams, he can not test the market.
The only thing he can do is hold out of camp like CJ2ypc did & force the Texans to give him more money.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Foster has to holdout if he doesn't get a deal. Plus, the Texans have promised him a new deal this season.
The Texans aren't going to go into Schaub's final season without an extension in place, I don't think.
I realize both are under Texans' control until after 2012 but circumstances demand things happen this off-season.
TexCanada
All Pro
Yes, and hopefully it is at least a couple of weeks shorter then we are used to.
Section516
Warrior
Not going to hijack thread
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
You can go over the cap with franchise tags or free agents, you just have to have your top 53 contracts equal to or less than the cap total a couple days before the first game.
badboy
Hall of Fame
He was signed as an undrafted free agent to a 3 year contract for just over $3 million. ALthough injured in his first season, he did play and I think that year was accrued. He is in is third season & under the four year requirement to achieve UFA status. As the new television deal begins in 2014, I could see him signing a cap friendly deal with nice bonus & heavy laden on back end. If Mario signs a long term deal, same with him.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
That's exactly what everyone said about Julius Peppers prior to the '09 season, yet he was franchised one final time in spite of everyone's belief that Carolina couldn't afford it.
Extending Schaub's contract could actually create room under the 2012 cap, and it's not like Mario's contract is zero against the cap - it's already anywhere from $15 - 18 Million. If they've made the judgement he's worth that much this season, it's tough to make be believe another $3.5 million (give or take) is going to put them in a position to let him go scott free. It may take a little juggling and creativity, but to say there's no way they can do it is silly - particularly since it's pretty much a given there will be some increase in the 2012 cap amount.
Also, thanks for reminding me that the Texans could get some compensatory picks if they did let him walk. The risk was high that in the period of time between when I wrote about it in my post, and you reminded me about it, I might have completely forgotten about that.
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
If he keeps playing like the last 4 games! Von Miller and Aldon Smith are bothing having great years too though.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
Yeah, but Texans win DROY. It's what they do.
True...
Demeco Ryans
Patrick Willis
Jerod Mayo
Brian Cushing
Brian Cushing
Ndamakung Suh
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
Von Miller has 31 tackles, 2 FF and 6.5 sacks through 8 games.
Aldon Smith has 13 tackles, 1 FF and 6.5 sacks through 8 games.
Brooks Reed has 25 tackles, 0 FF and 4 sacks through 9 games.
Reed is catching up, but he's behind a bit. 7 more games starting ought to give him ample opportunity to make a statement.
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
Yea, he'll be getting more snaps through the final 7 games than he did during the first 9, I bet. I think we'll see some forced fumbles along the way too. I love the way he comes in at times with the tomahawk chop at the QB.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Dutch,
That's the risk. What if the Texans franchise him in order to trade him and are $10 mil over the cap. If they can't trade him, they also can't recant the signed tag. Therefore, they have to clear $10 mil in cap space. That would be very, very ugly.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
Well, I don't think they will need to cut anyone to maintain their cap figure. They already have 14.8 million dedicated to him this year, so another ~2 million won't be hard to find. Cut Derrick Mason and you got it. He doesn't deserve 2.2 million next year anyways.
I don't want to see the Texans get stuck holding the bag of 17 million guaranteed for an OLB either, but they may be forced to do it. I don't think it's the right move, as I don't believe his market value is above 12 a year, but we shall see.
badboy
Hall of Fame
The prior club can rescind the offer on an type tag including the exclusive and unexclusive and the player immediately becomes an unresticted free agent and can negotiate with any team.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Badboy,
After it has been offered but before it has been signed. Once signed, the Texans are obligated to it. At least, that is my understanding.
VTexan
Rookie
I could even see JJ Watt lining up at DT in the future. We'd have Mario, Watt, Smith, Barwin, Cushing, Reed all rushing the qb on a blitz.