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Bounding in Optimism for 2011 (sorry, soapers)

GP said:
I didn't stray from the topic. I was addressing free agency and you are talking about draft picks. Similar, yet vastly different.

You're trying to point to draft picks as proof of something so I'll go with the flow for a second here. I think it's possible that those draft picks that were made over the past 5 years, for the defense, were likely Gary and/or Rick's doing and not as much a result of the d-coord. In short: I think Gary and Rick were living vicariously though their d-coords in terms of acquiring defensive talent, with Gary and Rick ultimately using their bully pulpit to influence who Richard Smith and later on Frank Bush would ultimately select as their picks on defense. Not that the d-coord had "zero" say in the matter, but I think Gary and/or Rick would do their best to either narrow the field to the guys THEY felt were the best picks in a round or at a position of need on defense, and in some way Smithiak would find a way to get the d-coord to get the guy Smithiak wanted all along.

I can see Kubiak's success at building a good offense bleeding over into other areas, whereby he now uses his success on offense to be a bully pulpit so that he can influence his two past d-coords into trusting what Gary says about the matters on defense. In essence, our HC was trying to be responsible for the whole thing. He saw it as his duty to oversee and manage offense AND defense, with the coordinators serving mostly as assistants to him (Gary). This is certainly true on offense, and it doesn't take much imagination to think it could be extended to the defense as well. I'm not saying that Kubiak was calling defensive plays. I'm saying that the overall structure and the acquisitions were likely something that Kubiak had a huge hand in building.

I say this because the 5-year drought was marked by Kubiak giving HIS d-coordinators time to do their work, which is why Kubiak was so gosh-darned supportive of his d-coords (because Gary was truly the one running the show!!!) and then all of a sudden BAM! here's a McNair hiring (Wade Phillips) which breaks from the 5-year tradition we've had going on with Kubiak's methods. We now have, theoritically, a Senate and a House and McNair in the Executive branch--Checks and balances that I don't think were there before. It was Kubiak's ship on both sides of the ball. Those defensive draft picks, those defensive free agent acquisitions, and that overall defensive philosophy was Smithiak through and through. Their little experiment and dabbling in the defense is (or maybe I should say "should be" since I will believe it when I see it) over and done with.

We have a guy in place (Wade) who SHOULD be his own self-sufficient and self-governing entity and get whatever he wants and do whatever he wants. That's how it appears. I have learned that appearances can be deceiving. Intentions are funny little creatures. McNair might intend for it to play out a certain way, but when the real bullets start flying (as opposed to the Texans P.R. division's simulated war games) all roads paved by good intentions might lead straight to hell.

I think Kubiak's tenure is two-fold: It's marked by (a) creating a very efficient and potent offense, but is also marked by (b) stubborn "control" issues pertaining to the defense that wasted five years of said offense mastery.

It doesn't matter if the guy made a great offense. Football is a game of offens AND defense. Have we found a solution? Maybe. It's up to Kubiak and his ego, though.

THEREFORE, in reply to your statement that Kubiak has been "trying to address the problem" I say this: He never should have been trying to do something he's certainly and obviously unqualified to do, but he tried it anyway and it has cost us for 5 years. That makes me mad, TK. Mad at McNair for not stepping in and doing this 5 years ago like he should have. Mad at Kubiak, if my theory is right, for not being man enough to tell McNair he needs the best d-coord he could get his hands on (and I seriously doubt Richard Smith was that man at the time. Gene Chizik was available and went on to coach at Iowa State...but he was available at the time we hired Richard Smith. Such is life, though). The frustration level is deserved. The lack of trust some fans have, as well as the borderline "crazy conspiracy theory" mentality some of us have, is also deserved because of the epic failures of Gary Kubiak, Rick Smith, and Bob McNair on the defense side of the ball. Total fail. Not even 1% win, IMO.
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Strong argument. I don't agree with some of it but you have me reconsidering some things.

Did you hear the rumor that Rick Smith was furious after Richard Smith was fired because he was wanting a group of candidates interviewed but Kubiak refused to interview and immediately settled on Bush?

Anyway, I am hopeful that all of these guys have seen how their formula was a failure and they have shifted the way they do things.
 
"Optimism - the doctrine or belief that everything is beautiful, including what is ugly." ~ Ambrose Bierce :truck:
 
dalemurphy said:
Strong argument. I don't agree with some of it but you have me reconsidering some things.

Did you hear the rumor that Rick Smith was furious after Richard Smith was fired because he was wanting a group of candidates interviewed but Kubiak refused to interview and immediately settled on Bush?

Anyway, I am hopeful that all of these guys have seen how their formula was a failure and they have shifted the way they do things.
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Since the jettisoning of David Carr, I started paying a lot more attention to Smithiaknair than I had before. I was a guy who thought the Texans were on top of things and that it was just pure bad luck that we hadn't become better over the first few years of our existence.

Well, what did it for me was when people on here connected the dots about how Kubiak said "I can rebuild David Carr" and then one year later he's as gone as that last slice of pizza at a teenage slumber party. GONE.

That's when I said, "OK, I think there is a bit of a shell game going on here." That's when I knew that I had to be more critical of the Texans than I had been up to that point. Why would McNair force David Carr upon the new HC? Why would the potential new HC blatantly lie and say "OK, sure thing boss" and then have us sit here and think that he wouldn't also eat crap and grin about other things within the system? You steal once, it becomes easier to steal again. You say a little white lie, and it's easier to tell a bit bigger fib the next time. These things gain momentum. I bet one of Gary Kubiak's biggest regrets is that he went with the flow on keeping Carr. I bet he wished he had made an ultimatum to McNair and said he wouldn't take the job if he wasn't allowed to study film and cut the kid right away if he needed to. because as foolish as this sounds, I don't think Kubiak has been all that genuine about a lot of other situations. He strikes me as the employee who would eat crap for 30 years if it meant going with the flow and getting that pension at the end. Some people call that "loyalty and duty" but I call it "sad and paralyzing."

How can this guy promote himself as being a top-ranked head coach in the NFL if he can't say "Rick, cut that Carr kid loose or damn sure try to get something for him before I start my first practices with my new team"? As well as "Rick, get out there and find me a kicker by the end of Wednesday. Kris Brown is benched until further notice, and cut loose the other Brown kid while you're at it. He's getting nowhere and he's using up a roster spot." As well as "Mr. McNair, I can't do everything right now. I'm coming in to build an offense and I need someone who is my equivalent on defense. I won't take the job unless you go get me the VERY best d-coord out there that we think can be the 'kubiak version" on defense. I can't promise anything on Carr, and i need your promise that we'll get the d-coord that will make us better NOW."

I just generally don't trust Kubiak. I think he says all the right things, like the guy who will say anything in the interview to get the job...and worry about the facts and how it all works out later on down the road. This, to me, has directly translated to what we see on the field: Unprepared, sloppy, fly by the seat of their pants guys who are making it up as they go along. Hey, it worked the first time...let's keep going back to that well. In the end, we always revert back to what's most natural. It's human nature.

I used to not be critical like this. I was the guy who thought everything Texans was awesome and it was juuuust a matter of time for us. I now have to be mindful of not being the guy who thinks everything Texans is suckiness. "Living in the ditches, instead of in the middle of the road" so to speak. But man, it's dang hard to live in the middle of the road. You're confined to staying within a few feet of roadway and going straight ahead. And if the direction you're headed (while staying firmly in the middle of the road) is the wrong direction, then you're at fault for having not gotten off the highway and seeking a different route to the final destination.

I WANT us to win. With every fiber of my being. I stuck with the Rockets through all those years of us getting smashed in the playoffs by Karl Malone and John Stockton, and then by the Suns and their squad of goons, and every year we had some team beating us down when we should have went on to win the whole thing. Well, here I am again...hoping that this team gets its act together and shocks the world. I WANT it, just like you guys do.
 
GP said:
Since the jettisoning of David Carr, I started paying a lot more attention to Smithiaknair than I had before. I was a guy who thought the Texans were on top of things and that it was just pure bad luck that we hadn't become better over the first few years of our existence.

Well, what did it for me was when people on here connected the dots about how Kubiak said "I can rebuild David Carr" and then one year later he's as gone as that last slice of pizza at a teenage slumber party. GONE.

That's when I said, "OK, I think there is a bit of a shell game going on here." That's when I knew that I had to be more critical of the Texans than I had been up to that point. Why would McNair force David Carr upon the new HC? Why would the potential new HC blatantly lie and say "OK, sure thing boss" and then have us sit here and think that he wouldn't also eat crap and grin about other things within the system? You steal once, it becomes easier to steal again. You say a little white lie, and it's easier to tell a bit bigger fib the next time. These things gain momentum. I bet one of Gary Kubiak's biggest regrets is that he went with the flow on keeping Carr. I bet he wished he had made an ultimatum to McNair and said he wouldn't take the job if he wasn't allowed to study film and cut the kid right away if he needed to. because as foolish as this sounds, I don't think Kubiak has been all that genuine about a lot of other situations. He strikes me as the employee who would eat crap for 30 years if it meant going with the flow and getting that pension at the end. Some people call that "loyalty and duty" but I call it "sad and paralyzing."

How can this guy promote himself as being a top-ranked head coach in the NFL if he can't say "Rick, cut that Carr kid loose or damn sure try to get something for him before I start my first practices with my new team"? As well as "Rick, get out there and find me a kicker by the end of Wednesday. Kris Brown is benched until further notice, and cut loose the other Brown kid while you're at it. He's getting nowhere and he's using up a roster spot." As well as "Mr. McNair, I can't do everything right now. I'm coming in to build an offense and I need someone who is my equivalent on defense. I won't take the job unless you go get me the VERY best d-coord out there that we think can be the 'kubiak version" on defense. I can't promise anything on Carr, and i need your promise that we'll get the d-coord that will make us better NOW."

I just generally don't trust Kubiak. I think he says all the right things, like the guy who will say anything in the interview to get the job...and worry about the facts and how it all works out later on down the road. This, to me, has directly translated to what we see on the field: Unprepared, sloppy, fly by the seat of their pants guys who are making it up as they go along. Hey, it worked the first time...let's keep going back to that well. In the end, we always revert back to what's most natural. It's human nature.

I used to not be critical like this. I was the guy who thought everything Texans was awesome and it was juuuust a matter of time for us. I now have to be mindful of not being the guy who thinks everything Texans is suckiness. "Living in the ditches, instead of in the middle of the road" so to speak. But man, it's dang hard to live in the middle of the road. You're confined to staying within a few feet of roadway and going straight ahead. And if the direction you're headed (while staying firmly in the middle of the road) is the wrong direction, then you're at fault for having not gotten off the highway and seeking a different route to the final destination.

I WANT us to win. With every fiber of my being. I stuck with the Rockets through all those years of us getting smashed in the playoffs by Karl Malone and John Stockton, and then by the Suns and their squad of goons, and every year we had some team beating us down when we should have went on to win the whole thing. Well, here I am again...hoping that this team gets its act together and shocks the world. I WANT it, just like you guys do.
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I don't really get your point here.

You lost faith in the Texans when Kubiak said he could fix Carr and then a year later, dumped him without trying to get something in return? And you think he's a liar telling McNair what he wants to hear so that he can keep his job and that lack of responsibility is leaking down to the players? Or... what?

When it comes to Carr, if you remember the Baldinger tape from back in the day, I think anyone looking at Carr's mistakes would think it would be easy to fix and only after working with him would it become obvious that he wasn't going to change. Three other teams have thought that Carr was fixable. I don't think there was any subterfuge on Kubiak's side on that and when it came time to make the change, they pulled the trigger on that. I think us not getting anything in return for Carr was more a failure on McNair's side who was trying to "do good" by Carr by allowing him to walk and sign on with any team that he wanted to play for and not force him to go to whoever we could work out a trade to.

On the defensive coordinator side, I think that Kubiak was trying to give some guys their chance. Every defensive coordinator has to come from somewhere. I think Kubiak tried to give these inexperienced guys that he liked their shot and it didn't work out. And if it was me, I would have fired him for that mistake. There's no way that any of us could say that Smithiak was forcing players down Smith and Bush's throats that they didn't want. I personally doubt that happened. I think that Smith and Bush (and their position coaches) had input on what players we chose.

I think that Phillips is a step in the right direction and if Phillips can construct a good defense, I think this team could be very, very good.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
Three other teams have thought that Carr was fixable. I don't think there was any subterfuge on Kubiak's side on that and when it came time to make the change, they pulled the trigger on that. I think us not getting anything in return for Carr was more a failure on McNair's side who was trying to "do good" by Carr by allowing him to walk and sign on with any team that he wanted to play for and not force him to go to whoever we could work out a trade to.
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What other teams were these? There was never a hot market for Carr ever. And don't even think about mentioning teams like Carolina, NY, and San Fran because none of those teams brought Carr over there to be the starter or to even compete for being the starter. He was brought over there to be a back up QB and nothing more. Outside of the Texans there has never been any other QB's job being threatened because of David Carr's arrival.

The Pencil Neck said:
On the defensive coordinator side, I think that Kubiak was trying to give some guys their chance. Every defensive coordinator has to come from somewhere. I think Kubiak tried to give these inexperienced guys that he liked their shot and it didn't work out. And if it was me, I would have fired him for that mistake. There's no way that any of us could say that Smithiak was forcing players down Smith and Bush's throats that they didn't want. I personally doubt that happened. I think that Smith and Bush (and their position coaches) had input on what players we chose.
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Kubiak's ineptitude in finding a DC that knew what the hell he was doing should have had him canned. No other franchise in this league gives a HC that many chances to fail especially when the people he chose in the first place looked like failed experiments before they ever even started. Kubiak seems to think that he's got an entire decade to get things figured out before he'll ever be held accountable and Mcnair has a lot of blame for giving him that kind of mind set. Kubiak's never had a sense of urgency to become a dominant team since he's been there. He has the total "Tortus" mentality. "Slow and steady."
 
Texecutioner said:
What other teams were these? There was never a hot market for Carr ever. And don't even think about mentioning teams like Carolina, NY, and San Fran because none of those teams brought Carr over there to be the starter or to even compete for being the starter. He was brought over there to be a back up QB and nothing more. Outside of the Texans there has never been any other QB's job being threatened because of David Carr's arrival.
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Straw man, much?

Did I say there was a hot market for Carr? No. Did I say that any team brought Carr in to be a starter? No.

The OCs and QB Coaches at Carolina, NY, and San Fran ALL said that Carr could be salvaged. When Carr went to Carolina, they said that Carr just needed to decompress for a year and be behind a line that would protect him and he would be able to live up to his 1st round draft status. In NY and San Fran, he was seen as a guy that just needed a chance to get his head on straight.

And all those guys were wrong.

Texecutioner said:
Kubiak's ineptitude in finding a DC that knew what the hell he was doing should have had him canned. No other franchise in this league gives a HC that many chances to fail especially when the people he chose in the first place looked like failed experiments before they ever even started. Kubiak seems to think that he's got an entire decade to get things figured out before he'll ever be held accountable and Mcnair has a lot of blame for giving him that kind of mind set. Kubiak's never had a sense of urgency to become a dominant team since he's been there. He has the total "Tortus" mentality. "Slow and steady."
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Like I said, the inability of this team to field a decent defense is Kubiak's fault. He's had two DCs that were both his hand picked guys and they both failed miserably. Because of that, Kubiak should have been fired.

I don't mind the "slow and steady" mentality as long as it gets you results. And so far all Kubiak has done is build a great offense but no defense and that's a failure. This team should have been in the playoffs last year. Any other result is failure.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
Straw man, much?

Did I say there was a hot market for Carr? No. Did I say that any team brought Carr in to be a starter? No.

The OCs and QB Coaches at Carolina, NY, and San Fran ALL said that Carr could be salvaged. When Carr went to Carolina, they said that Carr just needed to decompress for a year and be behind a line that would protect him and he would be able to live up to his 1st round draft status. In NY and San Fran, he was seen as a guy that just needed a chance to get his head on straight.

And all those guys were wrong.
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Carr was never brought into any of those teams as a potential future. At the time that the Panthers brought him in JD had been playing some of the best football of his career. They weren't thinking of replacing him with Carr. They needed a back up and they took a 5 year starter that failed and it wasn't the worst option since a lot of back ups are previous starters that failed. Then when they saw him play they realized that he was much worse than even they could have imagined.

NY had Eli Manning there, end of story. They didn't even consider Carr for even a second.

And San Fran didn't even hardly give him a sniff over Smith when the season started when Smith was awful for years as well. Carr had already been exposed long enough for them to know better. Carr was never brought over there with optimism of anything other than being just a body at the back up position. The Niners were screwed at the QB position no matter who took the snaps.

So again, Carr was never considered by any 3 teams. Kubiak was the only HC that came out and said he thought he could build a winner with Carr. Those were his words and his thoughts when he came here. No other organization has attempted that mistake other than Kubiak since Capers was fired. They just brought Carr in to compete for the back up position and being the pro bowl practice player that he was always advertised as while here he could play well enough at practice to keep the back up position. There weren't ever any 3 teams interested in Carr though. That's like saying the Texans were interested in Rex Grossman just because we needed a back up and he looked like one of the better options out there considering his experience and short term successes he was capable of. Sure he was okay to be a back up at the time, but there was never any potential chance that he was going to end up as our future where he would take Schaub's job and that wouldn't have qualified as us being interested. Back ups are back ups and there are only a hand full of teams like 5 that have back up QB's that could possibly compete as quality NFL starters.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
I don't really get your point here.

You lost faith in the Texans when Kubiak said he could fix Carr and then a year later, dumped him without trying to get something in return? And you think he's a liar telling McNair what he wants to hear so that he can keep his job and that lack of responsibility is leaking down to the players? Or... what?

When it comes to Carr, if you remember the Baldinger tape from back in the day, I think anyone looking at Carr's mistakes would think it would be easy to fix and only after working with him would it become obvious that he wasn't going to change. Three other teams have thought that Carr was fixable. I don't think there was any subterfuge on Kubiak's side on that and when it came time to make the change, they pulled the trigger on that. I think us not getting anything in return for Carr was more a failure on McNair's side who was trying to "do good" by Carr by allowing him to walk and sign on with any team that he wanted to play for and not force him to go to whoever we could work out a trade to.

On the defensive coordinator side, I think that Kubiak was trying to give some guys their chance. Every defensive coordinator has to come from somewhere. I think Kubiak tried to give these inexperienced guys that he liked their shot and it didn't work out. And if it was me, I would have fired him for that mistake. There's no way that any of us could say that Smithiak was forcing players down Smith and Bush's throats that they didn't want. I personally doubt that happened. I think that Smith and Bush (and their position coaches) had input on what players we chose.

I think that Phillips is a step in the right direction and if Phillips can construct a good defense, I think this team could be very, very good.
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I didn't lose complete faith when we dumped Carr. It was just the first few steps of the 5-year-long Keep Hope Alive marathon, and I hit the wall and surrendered to the pain two years ago after our epic MNF loss to the Titans (in our own house, due to shanktastic Kris Brown and an inability to keep Vy and CJ locked down--We fell victim to the OPTION RUN play? Multiple times? Seriously?!?!? Aarggh!).

THAT was the final straw, as it was for many on here. It has been a comedy of errors since that time. Like watching the movie Groundhog Day, over and over. I can repeat every line, from every scene, as it happens on the screen.

This will be the last year of having to watch Groundhog Day, one way or another. Either they swim or they sink.
 
Texecutioner said:
Carr was never brought into any of those teams as a potential future. At the time that the Panthers brought him in JD had been playing some of the best football of his career. They weren't thinking of replacing him with Carr. They needed a back up and they took a 5 year starter that failed and it wasn't the worst option since a lot of back ups are previous starters that failed. Then when they saw him play they realized that he was much worse than even they could have imagined.

NY had Eli Manning there, end of story. They didn't even consider Carr for even a second.

And San Fran didn't even hardly give him a sniff over Smith when the season started when Smith was awful for years as well. Carr had already been exposed long enough for them to know better. Carr was never brought over there with optimism of anything other than being just a body at the back up position. The Niners were screwed at the QB position no matter who took the snaps.

So again, Carr was never considered by any 3 teams. Kubiak was the only HC that came out and said he thought he could build a winner with Carr. Those were his words and his thoughts when he came here. No other organization has attempted that mistake other than Kubiak since Capers was fired. They just brought Carr in to compete for the back up position and being the pro bowl practice player that he was always advertised as while here he could play well enough at practice to keep the back up position. There weren't ever any 3 teams interested in Carr though. That's like saying the Texans were interested in Rex Grossman just because we needed a back up and he looked like one of the better options out there considering his experience and short term successes he was capable of. Sure he was okay to be a back up at the time, but there was never any potential chance that he was going to end up as our future where he would take Schaub's job and that wouldn't have qualified as us being interested. Back ups are back ups and there are only a hand full of teams like 5 that have back up QB's that could possibly compete as quality NFL starters.
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That ^^^ was a great post.

I don't see anything out of whack with it. Carr was JAG when he left here. And has been, as such, with every other team he's been lucky enough to land upon.

That guy won life's lottery. How to trim the deficit? Should have made all those teams Carr's been on pay the money to the government instead--It was gonna' get wasted either way.
 
Texecutioner said:
Carr was never brought into any of those teams as a potential future. At the time that the Panthers brought him in JD had been playing some of the best football of his career. They weren't thinking of replacing him with Carr. They needed a back up and they took a 5 year starter that failed and it wasn't the worst option since a lot of back ups are previous starters that failed. Then when they saw him play they realized that he was much worse than even they could have imagined.

NY had Eli Manning there, end of story. They didn't even consider Carr for even a second.

And San Fran didn't even hardly give him a sniff over Smith when the season started when Smith was awful for years as well. Carr had already been exposed long enough for them to know better. Carr was never brought over there with optimism of anything other than being just a body at the back up position. The Niners were screwed at the QB position no matter who took the snaps.

So again, Carr was never considered by any 3 teams. Kubiak was the only HC that came out and said he thought he could build a winner with Carr. Those were his words and his thoughts when he came here. No other organization has attempted that mistake other than Kubiak since Capers was fired. They just brought Carr in to compete for the back up position and being the pro bowl practice player that he was always advertised as while here he could play well enough at practice to keep the back up position. There weren't ever any 3 teams interested in Carr though. That's like saying the Texans were interested in Rex Grossman just because we needed a back up and he looked like one of the better options out there considering his experience and short term successes he was capable of. Sure he was okay to be a back up at the time, but there was never any potential chance that he was going to end up as our future where he would take Schaub's job and that wouldn't have qualified as us being interested. Back ups are back ups and there are only a hand full of teams like 5 that have back up QB's that could possibly compete as quality NFL starters.
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In my original post, I said that three teams thought that Carr was fixable. When did "fixable" translate to "competing for the starter's spot"? You're arguing with me over something that I never said. I never said that any of those teams expected Carr to compete with their starters for a starting spot.

But I do disagree with you over Carr's intended role with the Panthers. The Panthers knew that Delhomme was on his last legs and they wanted to have someone to groom to be his replacement. They thought that Carr might be that guy. In the interviews at the time, they said that Carr just needed to decompress and be behind a line that would protect him (as opposed to what he had to deal with in Houston.) Then Delhomme went down that season and Carr came in and totally stank up the place and they had to pull in Testaverde off his couch to try to salvage something of the season. And that's when they realized that Carr really was that bad.
 
GP said:
This will be the last year of having to watch Groundhog Day, one way or another. Either they swim or they sink.
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You shouldn't really say that. It's bad Karma.

No one knows what McNair is going to do. If we go 8-8 and miss the playoffs, McNair might keep Kubiak. Especially if there are injuries or something that can be used as an excuse. And then it will be Groundhog Day all over again.
 
GP said:
That ^^^ was a great post.
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Except he changed the argument. TPN said two other coaches said they could fix Carr.

Texecutioner, in his quest to be right, has changed the argument to "no other coach said they could build a winner with Carr."

TPN never said such a thing.

Carr will most likely be out of the league in 2011, now everyone should know he is worthless. The Panthers thought they could do something with him. They put him on the field, found out they were wrong. The Giants took 2 years to figure out what Kubiak & the Panthers found out in 1 year. The 49ers found out in 1 year.

But they all thought they could make something out of him. That's why they gave him a spot on the roster.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
You shouldn't really say that. It's bad Karma.

No one knows what McNair is going to do. If we go 8-8 and miss the playoffs, McNair might keep Kubiak. Especially if there are injuries or something that can be used as an excuse. And then it will be Groundhog Day all over again.
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You know, I really did sort of cringe when I hit the submit button on that.

I had that moment of pause, where I stared at it...and tried to convince myself that it was OK to post that.

I think the two things that will bring about the firing of Kubiak are: (1) 2012 is last year of contract, and (2) Wade Phillips is in the house. Seems like the math is too simple, but I really think McNair knows he simply bought Kubiak one more chance. Wade Phillips is that chance.

Maybe, just maybe, Kubiak would be back for a final year IF the defense made no real progress under Wade in 2011. But if the defense shows inspired effort all season long, and Kubiak's offense still fails to play a full game consistently...I can see McNair rolling the dice on Wade.
 
thunderkyss said:
Except he changed the argument. TPN said two other coaches said they could fix Carr.
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I didn't change anything. He said that 3 teams thought Carr was fixable. That to me says that he's able to be brought in and fine tuned into being their starter. Bringing in a guy as a back up is not thinking he's fixable. It's bringing in a guy to run the offense in case your main guy goes down. Most teams know that if their head starter goes down for a long amount of time that's a very good QB, it means their season is most likely over if it's early in the season. Teams picked up Carr because most back ups are pretty bad and he fit the mold of being just good enough to be a back up and he was even horrible at that. Carr was never some top highly touted back up QB commodity though anywhere. You ever care to even ponder about why he's been a back up on 3 different teams since being released from the Texans or did that just confuse you? When you can't even stay on a team as back up, you're not being brought in to other teams because they think they can fix you. That's just silly.

thunderkyss said:
Texecutioner, in his quest to be right, has changed the argument to "no other coach said they could build a winner with Carr."
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I posted the facts with Carr. Everyone knew he was garbage after the Texans were done with him. If you think differently then this sounds like your typical Spin efforts for Kubes that your very famous around here for.



thunderkyss said:
Carr will most likely be out of the league in 2011, now everyone should know he is worthless. The Panthers thought they could do something with him. They put him on the field, found out they were wrong. The Giants took 2 years to figure out what Kubiak & the Panthers found out in 1 year. The 49ers found out in 1 year.

But they all thought they could make something out of him. That's why they gave him a spot on the roster.
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None of what you just posted was the case or accurate at all.
 
Texecutioner said:
I didn't change anything. He said that 3 teams thought Carr was fixable. That to me says that he's able to be brought in and fine tuned into being their starter. Bringing in a guy as a back up is not thinking he's fixable. It's bringing in a guy to run the offense in case your main guy goes down. Most teams know that if their head starter goes down for a long amount of time that's a very good QB, it means their season is most likely over if it's early in the season.
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That's not what fixable means to me. Fixable to me means capable of playing in the NFL, even if it's only at a backup level.

I do think that the Panthers thought that he could be groomed into a starter in the future and they were hoping that in a year or two, he'd take over the starting spot from Delhomme. They made all sorts of comments about how he just needed to decompress and be surrounded by the right guys. But then when push came to shove, they found out they were wrong.

I think the Giants and Niners knew he was at best just a veteran backup who they thought could come in and hand the ball off and maybe throw a pass or two and manage the game after they worked with him and got rid of the bad habits he'd picked up from his previous stops. And then they realized they were wrong.

I don't think any of the teams realized just how bad he was.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
I do think that the Panthers thought that he could be groomed into a starter in the future and they were hoping that in a year or two, he'd take over the starting spot from Delhomme.

I think the Giants and Niners knew he was at best just a veteran backup who they thought could come in and hand the ball off and maybe throw a pass or two and manage the game after they worked with him and got rid of the bad habits he'd picked up from his previous stops. And then they realized they were wrong.

I don't think any of the teams realized just how bad he was.
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I thought the Panthers wanted a strong insurance policy in the event DelHomme played poorly. I'll have to check, but I think he was coming off a pretty bad year. The Panthers thought they had a team, with a question mark at QB.

I don't have a clue what the Giants were thinking.

I think the 49ers wanted someone to push Alex & that other guy.... If they thought DC was a back-up at best, that would be akin to pushing a boulder uphill with a rope.
 
thunderkyss said:
I thought the Panthers wanted a strong insurance policy in the event DelHomme played poorly. I'll have to check, but I think he was coming off a pretty bad year. The Panthers thought they had a team, with a question mark at QB.
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Delhomme had not been playing as well as previously. 2006 QB rating 82.6 v. Carr 2006 82.1.
 
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