Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Y'all do a really good job and the only folks who would disagree are the folks who want this to be their personal blog or diary .
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Blake Bortles
- Thread starter Texian
- Start date
Y'all do a really good job and the only folks who would disagree are the folks who want this to be their personal blog or diary .
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I am not going to get back into what started this little sidetrack. I will make one observation - if you don't want opinions about yourself, don't ask questions about yourself.
Here is what it looks like -
Here is what it looks like -
I feel smited. LOL
I think I-Cak does a great job moderating this MB and we don't agree on hardly anything.
Great job and keep up the good work CAK.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Agreed, great job by all moderators, and I've definitely argued various subjects with nearly all of them.
Did you see him in the Bowl game this year vs Baylor ? He was off target so many times on so many short to medium range passes, it was embarrassing.
Any QB takin with our 1.1 will be expected to start very soon, no later than the second half of this season.
He definiitely wasn't on his game to start, but he finished extremely well. I think that's what he means about battling.
You mean THIS game that they were expected to get blown out of?
20 of 31 for 301 3 TDS 2 INT 64.5 cmp %
8 rush for 93 Yds w/ 1 TD
Sure, I saw a bad pass or two, I also saw at least three drops. If you're going to dog on Bortles, this is a poor example.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Steve McNair. Drafted 3rd overall. Started 2 games his first year and 4 games his second before starting all of the games his 3rd year.
Chad Pennington and Aaron Rodgers sat for a couple of years before getting onto the field, as well. But they weren't taken in the top 10.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Phillip Rivers.
Aaron Rodgers was going to be the #1 draft pick, but slid towards the back of the first. He could have easily been a top 10 pick though. He sat for several years. QB's don't sit as long as they used to now days, but it used to be the norm. It wouldn't be a bad thing at all if it were to happen. Most likely would be one year max though.
jradMIT
Veteran
Different NFL nowadays, 1st round picks especially early ones are expected if not needed to make an immediate impact.
Texian
Hall of Fame
In addition Baylor DBs were called for grabbing and holding 6-8 times in that game. As if they were coached to NOT let Bortles beat them deep.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
You clearly have an agenda to spew some stuff like that about his bowl game. He was not off target all night long at all. He had a pretty stellar game and most things came easy for him. It was a bunch of easy zone read plays that were executed pretty well. He wasn't asked to make all types of versatile throws for the most part and their offense didn't need it. You are making things up to call his performance embarrassing. They put up over 40 points and got around 50 or something like that when they were favored to lose.
He didn't watch that game.
I have no such agenda against Bortles, I'm basically indifferent about him, except that he did stink it up in the bowl game this year because his accuracy was terrible for a big part of the game, enough so that he clearly looked more like an NFL QB project than a real NFL prospect worthy of a high first Draft pick.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
But is it?
In the 10 or so years prior to the rookie salary cap, you were paying your upper first round QB more than the best vets in the league. If you are sinking that much money into the position, you need to get an immediate return on your investment.
But with the salary cap as it is, these guys are no longer that much of a drain on your cap resources. So maybe it's changing back to the way it was.
Granted, we still have that expectation of our first and second rounders -- to have them immediately produce -- but it's no longer as financially necessary as it was.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Forgot about Rivers.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
You clearly seem to be reaching to make that claim. At no point in time did he "struggle." He wasn't even asked to make tons of dynamic throws, but he did make two beautiful deep ball throws in that game. You'd be the first person I've ever seen talk about a QB struggling when his offense put up 50 points or close to it in a big bowl game. Evidence simply doesn't support your assertion and it makes it seem like your agenda is to make Bortles look bad because you don't like him as a prospect.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Must be nice to throw a 1 yard pass and have your WR's take it for 50+ ... and then you become a prospect on par with Luck and Big Ben.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/...s-flashes-but-not-flawless-in-fiesta-bowl-win
Nice game but far from 'stellar'
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/...s-flashes-but-not-flawless-in-fiesta-bowl-win
Nice game but far from 'stellar'
From what I saw of Bortles he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with his short to intermediate range passes, which made me wonder about his feasibility as an NFL QB. On the other hand, he was accurate on his longer passes down the field, which I found very curious ?
But if you really think Bortles could be our "franchise QB", I can only hope you are in fact a real expert on QB play because we need a QB and if Bortles fills that need, as a staunce Texans's fan I'd be thrilled that we found our guy. So no matter my take on Bortles from the game I saw, I hope you got this one right on the money Texecutioner. Fair enough ?
I thought that was because they were getting paid so much. I believe Sam Bradford came into the league making more than 3 time Super Bowl Champ Tom Brady.
But now, the money isn't as big an issue.
Then again, when head-coaches are getting the axe after just one year, I can see the trend continuing.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Some of this may surprise some people:
With respect to quarterbacks in the draft, youll always hear pundits make observations such as, this QB has a great deep ball or he always folds when hes under pressure in the pocket. But how do you know those are true and not bias from a small sample of observed snaps? The simple answer is that you dont. What Ive aimed to do this year (and in years past) is to quantify those observations in an effort complement film study and analysis of draft prospects. Instead of guessing about the potency of Manziels deep ball, you can pull up the legitimate statistic.
To do that, Ive hand charted every one of Teddy Bridgewater, Derek Carr, Johnny Manziel, and Blake Bortles attempts this year on everything from pass distance to throws against the blitz. The data here cant render an opinion for you, but it can provide an effective complement to your knowledge on a prospect.
Where Did They Throw the Ball?
The zones in the chart represent where the QB threw the ball on the field, that is exactly the spot the receiver caught the ball. This is to make sure yards after the catch dont influence our opinion on the QBs.
- Most notable for Bridgewater is the lack of screens incorporated in the offense. Some have said that Bridgewater throws a high quantity of short passes, however the screens a QB normally utilizes have become short throws so that Bridgewater throws 53% of his passes in the 1-10 yard zones.
- Derek Carr is the complete opposite, throwing 33% of his passes behind the line of scrimmage, but few in the 1-10 yard range. The high number of short attempts means that he throws the deep ball less than average 11.35% of the time. In addition he throws to the important intermediate zone (11-20 yards) 18.3% of the time which means overall he pushes the ball down the field less than normal.
- Similar to Carr, Bortles doesnt throw the deep ball as much as average, but makes up for it by hitting intermediate routes more often - throwing from 6-20 yards 40% of the time.
- In an era of screen passes, Manziel threw the deep ball far more than the other QBs hes compared to here. Manziel targeted his WRs nearly 19% of the time on passes deeper than 20 yards and still went to his intermediate targets 19% of the time.
How Accurate Were They?
This requires a bit of explaining. The chart below represents each QBs accuracy in the individual target zones when adjusting for drops by their receivers. The colors represent how that accuracy compares to the Average QB, green is better than average, yellow average, red is below-average. Lets get to it.
- Its pretty clear that Bridgewater cleans up in every zone except the deep ball. Hes excellent throwing the short ball where hes about 6-7% above average for the two zones. Some have criticized Bridgewaters deep ball, and while not bad - his completion percentage of about 51% is about average.
- Having a big arm is a trait that every scout desires, but that doesnt matter if its not particularly effective. Derek Carrs accuracy on 20+ yard throws is poor, coming in nearly 7% below-average. In addition, his accuracy on NFL type throws (11-20 yards) is just about as expected at 64%. His only redeeming category is in the 6-10 yard range where he is slightly above average.
- There's an interesting dichotomy in Bortles throw ability. His 55% completion percentage on deep throws is extremely positive, but hes only average on the intermediate throws hitting 64% of his total targets. However, hes above average in the 6-10 range as well, so its likely that hitting that intermediate zone is just a matter of getting the touch down.
- For all the criticism Manziel gets, hes extremely good at hitting his targets downfield. His NFL type throws in the 11-20 yard range is the highest in the top 8 QBs in this class at 70.5% and hes slightly better than Bortles at hitting the 20+ yard throws.
- Before we start getting into the debates about Manziel scrambling around the heaving it up for Mike Evans his accuracy was similar when throwing solely from the pocket, hitting 67% of his 11-20 yard passes and 59% of his 20+ yard passes
How Do They Do Under Pressure?
THE REST OF THE STORY
That reminds me... he was tearing it up on the ground, well he had a couple of really good runs, which isn't really his game. Maybe that screwed him up in the first half. But you're right, overall a very solid game.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Actually the data show Bortles was tops on intermediate throws:
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2306521#post2306521
Not me.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Actually the data show Bortles was tops on intermediate throws:
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2306521#post2306521
Not me.
If you were going by the chart,tb is a no brainer. Even his bad is 50% on deep ball which is the going rate. Everything else,he's top shelf .
TexansFTW
Veteran
I don't agree w/ IDEX, but I don't agree w/ yall either. If you're going to highlight that box score and say 'great stats' you should be aware that 2 of those TDs were little 5 yard screens taken to the house by playmakers for close to 90ish yards.
I like Bortles and think he does what it takes to win games, but just quoting the box score doesn't tell the full picture.
I posted before I read you basically said the same thing, good stuff.
Texian
Hall of Fame
All well and good but if you're going to make excuses for the screen TDs then you should give credit for recognizing and executing. EVEN MORE IMPORTANT is acknowledging the fact that Baylor defenders were man handling UCF WRs. Time and again Baylor DBs were called numerous times for for holding and PI. It was pretty clear that Baylor DBs were coached to not let Blake Bortles beat you deep. Baylor had 17 penalties for 135 yards. Sounds like the Baylor coaches knew that they couldn't contain or stop Bortles and their only chance was to mug the UCF WRs..........UCF was the largest underdog in Bowl history, UCF did put up 52 points and beat #5 Baylor.......and now you know the rest of the story.
jradMIT
Veteran
I think he had a good not great game, but what can you expect after the lay off and such, he seemed rusty in the first half, but by the end he was in control. He was helped out by some YAC, but that just means he didn't take care of business. He struggled with accuracy at times, but what he really did exceptionally well was moving with in the pocket. His passing numbers look better than he performed, but he ran for 100+ yds.
bah007
Hall of Fame
Bortles' game against Baylor wasn't as bad or as good as some of you are trying to make out. As usual around here it was somewhere in the middle. This board can be like Congress at times. You always have two groups with opposing viewpoints and neither is willing to admit that they could possibly be even a little bit wrong. It was far from his worst game and far from his best game as well.
The bad:
- Bortles started out ugly (as he tends to consistently do)
- His stats look better than his performance actually was because his WRs did get a ton of YAC on screens and short throws
The good:
- When he calmed down Bortles was pretty much unstoppable
- He found Baylor's weaknesses and attacked them relentlessly, whether that be with his arm or legs
- He came out of the hole that he dug and carried his team to a win
The bad:
- Bortles started out ugly (as he tends to consistently do)
- His stats look better than his performance actually was because his WRs did get a ton of YAC on screens and short throws
The good:
- When he calmed down Bortles was pretty much unstoppable
- He found Baylor's weaknesses and attacked them relentlessly, whether that be with his arm or legs
- He came out of the hole that he dug and carried his team to a win
The thing for me about Bortles is that even in a overall good performance against Baylor, he still looked downright awful at times during that game. From rewatching a lot of his tape this seems true for all of the games I have seen from him in 2013. In the Baylor game he made a couple decisions/throws in the first half that just blew my mind; outside of the back to back interceptions, he missed terribly on a few of his first throws, and then also nearly threw another pair of INTs when attempting to throw screens to Storm Johnson while he was 100% covered by multiple.
He seems to make a handful of bad decisions and even worse throws every game, and sometimes it's those plays that make him have to perform the come backs that Texian praises him for.
Now, please Texian, don't take this as a another assassination of your opinions, because I do respect what you have to say about Bortles and you have opened my eyes on a couple things for him.
However, like I said he just looks so bad at times that it's hard for me to love him even when one quarter later he is throwing great and bringing his team back to a win. To me, consistency is a very underrated attribute in QBs, especially young prospects.
He seems to make a handful of bad decisions and even worse throws every game, and sometimes it's those plays that make him have to perform the come backs that Texian praises him for.
Now, please Texian, don't take this as a another assassination of your opinions, because I do respect what you have to say about Bortles and you have opened my eyes on a couple things for him.
However, like I said he just looks so bad at times that it's hard for me to love him even when one quarter later he is throwing great and bringing his team back to a win. To me, consistency is a very underrated attribute in QBs, especially young prospects.
bah007
Hall of Fame
Because coaches and GMs have a shorter leash than ever before and they are not given the proper amount of time to build a long term plan unless they have immediate success. So they throw all their eggs into one basket and make short sighted decisions because they don't want to get fired.
You're making an investment for the future. That's why you don't draft Bortles unless you are sure that he can be a franchise QB.
I'm not saying what will happen, only what should happen if we want what's best for the long term instead of being short sighted. These guys are so raw coming out of college that all but the elite would benefit from a redshirt year to catch up mentally. How often does a true freshman QB have great success at the college level? I imagine that it happens but I would bet that redshirt freshman have more success. Moving from college to the pros is a jump just like going from high school to college is. I am consistently confused as to why people don't treat it as such.
I would be willing to bet that 1st round QBs who sit for a year or two have more success than 1st round QBs who are thrown straight into the fire.
I would only make exceptions for QBs who are very pro ready, but they are extremely rare. Luck and Russell Wilson were. I believe that Bridgewater is as well.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Sure. Definitely fair.
I'm not saying he'll be some top flight QB either for the record. I just like his ability to come back against teams and keep fighting. I think that is a huge asset. I agree that he isn't a "prolific" passer at the moment, but I don't think he is a bad passer by any stretch. I don't think that Big Ben was better than he was when he first hit the league either. I like his ability to run and scramble and his strength to break tackles from blitz attackers. I don't expect that he'll be an elite passer probably ever, but I see a lot of Big Ben in him which I'll take all day long especially since he has the "clutch" gene which is one of the most important things a QB needs to have when most playoff games are decided with who has the ball last. Maybe he shouldn't be the #1 pick, but that doesn't mean he can't be or that it was be a bad #1 pick. If the franchise feels that he'll be a winner and that he'll be a guy that can lead a team very far consistently, then I don't see why it would be a bad pick at #1 at all despite the fact that he doesn't look as good as a lot of other previous #1 picks on paper.
Now is my response fair?
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
How many college QB's do you hear this about?
Texian
Hall of Fame
This ability you speak of is the same ability that Bill Walsh and Bill Belichick discuss and say was the primary reason why Walsh drafted Montana and Belichick drafted Brady. Like Montana and Brady, Bortles has done it time and again. Like Montana and Brady, Bortles also does it cool, calm and collected.
Somewhat amazed at how many folks don't want to acknowledge this ability and would rather dismiss or make excuses for all the comebacks and game winning drives. I on the other hand yield to Bill Walsh and his comments, "Believe what your eyes are telling you."
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infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I haven't watched Bortles enough to judge this, but some of the comments I have seen are not absurd on their face. I did watch VY and there was legitimate concern with him that many of his comebacks were products of his own prior poor play. Not saying it applies to Bortles but it can be a reason to discount coming from behind some.
Blake
MMQB
Stop dismissing Bortles greatness.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Great, I did everything I could to not step in front of the Bortles bus and you come along and shove me under it.
jradMIT
Veteran
I guess I am one of those analytics who believe that comebacks don't matter, in manner of speaking there an illusion. First quarter points matter just as much as 4th qtr points, it's not like its family feud. You can win a game in the first or any other quarter, not just the 4th. It's good to play well down the stretch, but not better than jumping on a team early. From a strategy stand point you could argue scoring earlier is better but I digress.
Some players are inherently streaky, and give a wide variation in play over the game.
Some players are inherently streaky, and give a wide variation in play over the game.
Blake
MMQB
Great, I did everything I could to not step in front of the Bortles bus and you come along and shove me under it.
lol Sorry. I just couldnt resist.
My general stance is that comebacks are nice and all, but its just a part of the puzzle of being a good QB and should be viewed as so. Its right up there with "he's just a winner!"
bah007
Hall of Fame
After studying Bortles I can assure you that, yes indeed, Bortles OFTEN dug holes for his team with poor play in the first half of games, only to catch fire late and bring them back for the win.
IMO, Bortles best quality is his ability to remain calm and collected in the heat of the moment when everything is on the line. His worst quality is that he is a lazy QB when there is no pressure or nothing to play for.
You have to measure which guy you are going to get. In the NFL can he knock it off with the piss poor first quarter play? Because if he can't then those fourth quarter moments that he shines in won't be there.
He's not just a moderator he's a fan and a regular poster here too. I call BS on him bullying anyone. He responds as a fan and poster unless you do break a rule. Just because he calls people out for not getting their facts right and or ignorant post doesn't mean he's bullying anyone. I've had MANY disagreements with him and he's never made it personal or threatened me as a moderator.
It's thin skinned people like you who love to mouth off but cry when responded to negatively that go around giving negative reps. You act as if people are doing you wrong or treating you badly because they don't like your (not) well thought out, immature, homophobic posts. Well guess what, act like a turd on here and you will get treated like one. That's not bullying, that's getting called out for posting trash.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Au contraire, CAK quite regularly engages in name calling and the use of abusive language consistent with that of a Bully and that is often his exact intent. Cak is the Soup Nazi. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVqBzP0xdKk
badboy
Hall of Fame
On Bortles, any Qb can get behind & it is a positive if he can maintain his and teams composure and pull out a win. My concern is if coaches can improve the things that lead to getting behind. As it was reported that O'brien watched Garoppolo today's pro day, I am going to research him more. I did not watch him play but his bowl appearances were impressive.
I really liked the way JFF kept it together, calmed his teammates, & pulled out that win against Duke.
That was a heck of a game.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Agree! I'm not sure the Aggies were a .500 ball club the last two years without JFF.
PapaL
Loose Screw
The mark of a great QB is that even when you're having a bad game (very rare) you are able to turn it around in the 4th and lead your team to a win. All of the greats have had this quality.
Staubach/Montana/Elway/Bradshaw/Brady. Think about how many times Peyton has played poorly against the Texans and still lead the Colts back to victory. Rosencopter anyone? Bortles appears to have some of these qualities.
Staubach/Montana/Elway/Bradshaw/Brady. Think about how many times Peyton has played poorly against the Texans and still lead the Colts back to victory. Rosencopter anyone? Bortles appears to have some of these qualities.