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Blake Bortles

Texian said:
It is what it is. It would've taken me less than 5 minutes to completely deconstruct your silly belligerent post. Since it was a troll post I didn't waste my time. It's possible that you're just a Jackwagon and that's the way your personality is wired. If that is the case then I apologize for calling you a troll.

The reason it's a troll post is no reasonable person would try to make a connection of DE stats to and with QB stats. Unfortunately it appears they may be a few who've been sucked in by your BAD INTELL and BAD ANAYLSIS due to your belligerence. I expect most will see though it.

You did bring to the for front that Teddy Bridgewater is the King QB of the Sister Janes of the Weak Sisterhood. Regardless I think you and I are done here.
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I'm confused. Are you saying that DE's should be judged by their stats but QB's shouldn't?
 
mussop said:
I'm confused. Are you saying that DE's should be judged by their stats but QB's shouldn't?
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I'm not surprised by your confusion, one is an apple and one is orange and in essence why the bad intell and bad analysis. Like I said, we're done here!
 
Texian said:
I'm not surprised by your confusion, one is an apple and one is orange and in essence why the bad intell and bad analysis. Like I said, we're done here!
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He is not the only one confused. Why do stats matter more for DEs than they do for QBs?
 
rmartin65 said:
He is not the only one confused. Why do stats matter more for DEs than they do for QBs?
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I'm going to take a stab at it.... & this is just for me, I have no idea what Texian is talking about.

A QBs stats usually has more to do with whether the game is won or lost. More so than any other position. I can look at a QBs stats, & think, "I can win a game with that dude."

Looking at a DEs stats... not so much. At best I can say, "He'll help my defense slow down an offense & make a game winnable for my QB."

If I had a DE put up one of the best seasons in NFL history, it wouldn't be far fetched to think we could still lose three of our last five games. If I had a QB put up one of the best seasons in NFL history it's not likely that we would lose three games in any 5 game stretch.

Another thing. 31 TDs & 4 Interceptions is great, but that doesn't make 29 TDs & 9 Ints horrible. Or Bortles passer rating, or completion percentage.

I don't have a problem with JaDaveon Clowney's production. I'm looking for a prospect & though his stats don't say he's the best, everything else does. The eyeball, his measurables, his combine, his attitude... I like everything about the kid. You won't hear me complain if you were to say he was the best prospect in this draft.

But his stats don't say that... not even close & I think you all agree, otherwise you wouldn't be making excuses... or rationalizing his poor stats.
 
thunderkyss said:
Do you have any real concerns about Bortles?
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Yes I do, (2) matter of fact. I am concerned about his fumbles, he needs to take better care of the football. To Bortles credit most of his fumbles occur when his eyes are down field but the ball still needs to have better security to avoid turnovers. Secondly I am concerned about his INTs. However when you analyze his numbers, his INTs are in the neighborhood of most others. Actually TB has more INTs in his college career. Bortles still maintains almost a 3 to 1 TD to INT ratio which is respectable. The thing about the INTs is most come from Bortles trying to force the ball into tight coverage and it's only going to get tighter in the NFL. The bright spot is even with the INTs Bortles doesn't get fazed or rattled and has shown the propensity to recover well. Some say Bortles INTs cost UCF the S Carolina game. A valid argument. I say the halfback pass that ended in a pick six is what cost UCF the game. Regardless Bortles/UCF almost came back to win the game and Bortles showed excellent awareness and ability to avoid Clowney's pressure.

There was also a question of Bortles holding the ball to long and under throwing his WRs on deep patterns. Bortles seems to have answered those questions at his Pro Day throwing several 60 yd passes on a tight trajectory without any extra air underneath. Many of the talking heads at his Pro Day seem to agree.
 
thunderkyss said:
I'm going to take a stab at it.... & this is just for me, I have no idea what Texian is talking about.

A QBs stats usually has more to do with whether the game is won or lost. More so than any other position. I can look at a QBs stats, & think, "I can win a game with that dude."

Looking at a DEs stats... not so much. At best I can say, "He'll help my defense slow down an offense & make a game winnable for my QB."
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Keeping with that thought process, how many of the "greatest offensive teams" have won SB compared to the "greatest defensive teams"? I know you're only trying to translate what another poster is saying but it doesn't hold much weight when it comes to winning the big game. This year's SB and the Patriot's 18-1 are great examples of offensive juggernauts being handled by a superior defense.
 
PapaL said:
Keeping with that thought process, how many of the "greatest offensive teams" have won SB compared to the "greatest defensive teams"? I know you're only trying to translate what another poster is saying but it doesn't hold much weight when it comes to winning the big game. This year's SB and the Patriot's 18-1 are great examples of offensive juggernauts being handled by a superior defense.
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Does drafting a pass rusher with 3 sacks make you one of the "greatest defensive teams"?

Still, no one is saying that Clowney had to have the most dominant statistical performance of this year's class, which is what "they" are inferring with Bortles' stats. At least Bortles was in the ball park, statistically Aaron Donald eclipses JaDaveon Clowney.

Unlike Texian, I do not think that Donald is the best defensive prospect in this draft, nor do I think Bortles is the best QB prospect (I think he's barely a second rounder). But we're talking about using stats to back up our arguments.

Donald's stats compared to Clowney's Donald is clearly the better player. Statistically, Clowney isn't even in the conversation.

Bortles' stats are close enough to Bridgewater's to warrant the argument.
 
Texian said:
Yes I do, (2) matter of fact. I am concerned about his fumbles, he needs to take better care of the football. To Bortles credit most of his fumbles occur when his eyes are down field but the ball still needs to have better security to avoid turnovers.
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Fair and honest assessment.

Secondly I am concerned about his INTs. However when you analyze his numbers, his INTs are in the neighborhood of most others. Actually TB has more INTs in his college career.
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And this is why you have problems getting along around here. You just can't help yourself. The bolded is a totally disingenuous statement. Bridgewater has indeed thrown 5 more INTs in his career. He's also thrown 251 more passes.

It is a fact that Bortles has thrown less INTs. But he actually throws INTs at a slightly higher rate.

Bortles - 2.13%
Bridgewater - 2.10%

A miniscule difference. One that need not even be noted really, until you wrongly and intentionally tried to make it part of your argument for Bortles.

Bortles still maintains almost a 3 to 1 TD to INT ratio which is respectable. The thing about the INTs is most come from Bortles trying to force the ball into tight coverage and it's only going to get tighter in the NFL. The bright spot is even with the INTs Bortles doesn't get fazed or rattled and has shown the propensity to recover well. Some say Bortles INTs cost UCF the S Carolina game. A valid argument. I say the halfback pass that ended in a pick six is what cost UCF the game. Regardless Bortles/UCF almost came back to win the game and Bortles showed excellent awareness and ability to avoid Clowney's pressure.
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I agree with all of the above.

There was also a question of Bortles holding the ball to long and under throwing his WRs on deep patterns. Bortles seems to have answered those questions at his Pro Day throwing several 60 yd passes on a tight trajectory without any extra air underneath. Many of the talking heads at his Pro Day seem to agree.
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He has answered those questions as far as they pertain to wearing shorts and throwing against no defense. All we can do is wait to see if those questions have been answered in a real game scenario.

My biggest concern with Bortles has always been his poor starts. He consistently puts his team in a hole to start games by making bad decisions and poor throws. He does rise to the occasion in the fourth quarter, but I am concerned that in the NFL his poor starts will play his team out of games.
 
bah007 said:
Fair and honest assessment.



And this is why you have problems getting along around here. You just can't help yourself. The bolded is a totally disingenuous statement. Bridgewater has indeed thrown 5 more INTs in his career. He's also thrown 251 more passes.

It is a fact that Bortles has thrown less INTs. But he actually throws INTs at a slightly higher rate.

Bortles - 2.13%
Bridgewater - 2.10%

A miniscule difference. One that need not even be noted really, until you wrongly and intentionally tried to make it part of your argument for Bortles.



I agree with all of the above.



He has answered those questions as far as they pertain to wearing shorts and throwing against no defense. All we can do is wait to see if those questions have been answered in a real game scenario.

My biggest concern with Bortles has always been his poor starts. He consistently puts his team in a hole to start games by making bad decisions and poor throws. He does rise to the occasion in the fourth quarter, but I am concerned that in the NFL his poor starts will play his team out of games.
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A fair well reasoned discussion. The TB INT notation was not to jab the needle but rather to illustrate, that in comparison, the # of INTs was not that alarming. I don't think anyone has said that TB's INT were a real problem or a problem at all for that matter. I for one have not.
 
Just a posted in the clowney thread, I need to see great colege production from high picks. Ziggy Ansah didn't have great college production,but he's been playing football for 2 yrs. Dude got to byu on a track scholarship. People thought he was too raw in the mental game. During sr bowl practices, he was killing guys,blowing up plays, and sniffing out what the offense was trying to do. Clowney, has played 3 yrs cfb and if you watch him as a freshman,he hasn't gotten better. This has been my beef. Its like he was so much bigger and stronger,when he needs to have a better technique, he can't. I've watcheed his games as a freshman to a jr and he looks exactly the same. Its a speed rush,a undisciplined knife in move,or a bull rush. In the 20 something games I've watched, I've never seen such an athletic guy gets pushed by the qb because he can't drop his weight and turn the speed to power. I mean, maybe RAC and Kollar can teach him,who knows? I do know I've seen a lot of de/olbs in this draft that do it with ease.If martin,ford,smith,attachou,murphy can do it, why is it so hard for clowney to do it?
 
Trap_Star said:
what is misleading about it? according to their metric rating, he finished behind Manuel and ahead of Dalton.
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What is misleading about it, apparently to some, is a negative expectation because of the initial comparison. As illustrated by PapaL's comments. Not until after watching the video does one realize that these performances are some the very best. Something the headline doesn't indicate.
 
Texian said:
What is misleading about it, apparently to some, is a negative expectation because of the initial comparison. As illustrated by PapaL's comments. Not until after watching the video does one realize that these performances are some the very best. Something the headline doesn't indicate.
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did EJ Manuel not rank ahead of Blake?

"tops in 2014 draft" isn't positive enough for you?
 
Texian said:
Yes I do, (2) matter of fact. I am concerned about his fumbles, he needs to take better care of the football. To Bortles credit most of his fumbles occur when his eyes are down field but the ball still needs to have better security to avoid turnovers. Secondly I am concerned about his INTs. However when you analyze his numbers, his INTs are in the neighborhood of most others. Actually TB has more INTs in his college career. Bortles still maintains almost a 3 to 1 TD to INT ratio which is respectable. The thing about the INTs is most come from Bortles trying to force the ball into tight coverage and it's only going to get tighter in the NFL. The bright spot is even with the INTs Bortles doesn't get fazed or rattled and has shown the propensity to recover well. Some say Bortles INTs cost UCF the S Carolina game. A valid argument. I say the halfback pass that ended in a pick six is what cost UCF the game. Regardless Bortles/UCF almost came back to win the game and Bortles showed excellent awareness and ability to avoid Clowney's pressure.

There was also a question of Bortles holding the ball to long and under throwing his WRs on deep patterns. Bortles seems to have answered those questions at his Pro Day throwing several 60 yd passes on a tight trajectory without any extra air underneath. Many of the talking heads at his Pro Day seem to agree.
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Funny how you mention Blakes lesser INT amount, but forget to mention he throws more and more each season. Or take into account how his accuracy is inconsistent from year to year, and oh by the way, no one has disputed the fact that I have said Blake is inaccurate when throwing left or forced to make a 2nd and 3rd read. The guy is the most over rated player EVER imo.
 
amazing80 said:
Funny how you mention Blakes lesser INT amount, but forget to mention he throws more and more each season. Or take into account how his accuracy is inconsistent from year to year, and oh by the way, no one has disputed the fact that I have said Blake is inaccurate when throwing left or forced to make a 2nd and 3rd read. The guy is the most over rated player EVER imo.
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you have just unleashed the power of hell upon you sir. good luck
:overreact::hides::backsout:
 
Texian said:
Watch the video the headline is misleading.
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I see how it's so misleading:

E. J. Manuel, 2013 Round: 1 / Pick: 16
Andy Dalton, 2011 Round: 2 / Pick: 35

2e2pctv.png


But hey, at least he's tall and protypical:

Manuel: 6'5" 237 lb
Bortles: 6'5" 232 lb
Dalton: 6'2" 220 lb

Texian said:
What is misleading about it, apparently to some, is a negative expectation because of the initial comparison. As illustrated by PapaL's comments. Not until after watching the video does one realize that these performances are some the very best. Something the headline doesn't indicate.
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If some of "these performances are some the very best" how do you explain his score being lower than the worldly talent that is EJ Manuel? I mean he took the same performance tests to calculate his score. Maybe he scored really low in other aspects that weren't shown in the video or maybe it's just rigged to keep the white man down?
 
PapaL said:
I see how it's so misleading:

E. J. Manuel, 2013 Round: 1 / Pick: 16
Andy Dalton, 2011 Round: 2 / Pick: 35

2e2pctv.png


But hey, at least he's tall and protypical:

Manuel: 6'5" 237 lb
Bortles: 6'5" 232 lb
Dalton: 6'2" 220 lb



If some of "these performances are some the very best" how do you explain his score being lower than the worldly talent that is EJ Manuel? I mean he took the same performance tests to calculate his score. Maybe he scored really low in other aspects that weren't shown in the video or maybe it's just rigged to keep the white man down?
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1. I watched the video in it's entirety. 2. "some of the very best" doesn't mean "THE very best".
 
Gruden's takeaways on Bortles from QB Camp...
1. With Bortles, sometimes I see Ben Roethlisberger

Now, that doesn't mean he's going to have the same type of career. Bortles does have a similar build. He is big. He looks like a tight end, and he plays like a tight end at times. But if you remember, no one really wanted Ben Roethlisberger. He had to go to Miami of Ohio. And here you have Bortles, who nobody really wanted. He winds up at UCF.

I remember when we played the Steelers, we had to prepare for their offense. They had Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes, Heath Miller and a good run game. Then we played them, and we forgot just how big the quarterback was. We had to game plan for Roethlisberger's scrambling. He would run over people. When I watch Roethlisberger or when I watch Bortles, there is a line between giving up on a play and extending a play. Sometimes Bortles will take a horrible sack, and sometimes he'll get smashed, and sometimes he'll make the greatest play you'll ever see.

2. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here

I won't be shocked if the Houston Texans make Bortles the first overall pick, but let's be honest, we are not talking about a fifth-year senior or four-year starter along the lines of Russell Wilson or Andrew Luck.

With Bortles and Teddy Bridgewater and Johnny Manziel, these are underclassmen. They are missing training camp and they are missing a full regular season of strength and conditioning, of fundamental technique work and of playing. So, in some areas, they are like a blank canvas. They have not been exposed to all the different things that some of the others have been exposed to, and that affects how ready they are going to be. The potential is certainly there, but it's probably not realistic to think these guys are going to excel right away.

3. Playing in a pro-style offense helps Bortles

A lot of quarterbacks nowadays look over to the sideline and there's a picture telling them the formation and the play. I like watching Bortles and UCF because they are in the huddle and you don't know what is going to come out.

I like the different personnel groupings. He said they have 10 of them. I like seeing the quarterback under center. The offensive inventory is different when he's under center. A lot of people think tempo means you have to go up and snap it quick, but you have to have great tempo when you are coming out of the huddle, changing personnel and calling plays. The quarterback has to organize the troops. There is a lot of verbiage.

When I watch that offense, I see a lot of the New England Patriots. And when I see a quarterback who can make plays with his arms and legs at Bortles' size, and execute these plays and handle the nuances of pass protection, that is pretty exciting.

4. The QBs aren't the only high-risk players

Every player in the draft has question marks, not just the quarterbacks. I would want Blake Bortles, I would get him and I would start this process immediately. I would not be shocked if the Texans took him No. 1.

You are looking at a 6-foot-5, 232-pound, 22-year-old kid who can make plays. He can run over you, he is elusive and he has guts. And he has won some big games and put a football program that was totally obscure nationally into a New Year's Day bowl game -- and won it. So there is a lot of upside here.

5. Check back in a couple of years

Bortles has a release that is not typical, but the ball comes out quick and accurate. I think his base and his lower body have improved tremendously. He is working in concert with his feet and his legs, and I think his accuracy has improved.

He still has work to do in refining his fundamentals. There is no question. Remember, he is a junior, not a finished product. He has very good playing instincts, very good playing strength, and he has an interesting football background, having played in this pro system. I think you have to look a couple of years down the road to identify what you potentially have with him.
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Texian said:
Manuel and Bortles are SOME of the very best. Outside of that it does appear you're looking for an argument or you're arguing just for the sake of arguing.
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"SOME of the very best" what?!?

If you can't/won't answer the question, that's cool. No one is looking to start a fight. Some thing just are what they are. Some people rank Blake a 1-1 and some rank him being EJ Manuel. It's cool.
 
Blake Bortles raising concern over basic skills

That's the biggest concern for NFL coaches. Bortles is what we call a gripper – he squeezes the ball very hard as he works his delivery. It's difficult to turn it loose and rip the ball when you do that. Therefore, Bortles tends to push the ball rather than snap it and drive it. It shows up on throws that demand either velocity or distance, or both, and it is readily apparent on his deep balls. They hang in the air, and seemingly hit a wall the farther they get. There were far too many vertical throws in which his receiver had meaningful clearance from the defender, and Bortles significantly underthrew him. Some were complete, but that is not likely to happen in the NFL with better corners and safeties. The problem is exacerbated in cold weather.

Study the SMU game late in the season, in Dallas. It was 24 degrees, with the wind at 12 mph. Bortles had problems throwing the ball that day. It's something you must carefully evaluate if you're the Cleveland Browns or Minnesota Vikings (the Vikings will play the next two years outside at the University of Minnesota); not only their home games, but their divisional road opponents as well, which include cold weather cities like Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago and Green Bay.

Many have pointed to Bortles' inconsistencies with his lower body mechanics as the reason for his seeming inability to drive the ball. There are two schools of thought. The first focuses on the concept of sequencing, beginning with your legs, and working through to your hips, then your shoulders, and finally your arm. That approach postulates that if you fire the first three in proper sequence, your arm will follow, and the ball will come out with velocity. The second philosophy stipulates that throwing starts with your arm position, your hands and your shoulders. If you're fundamentally proficient in those areas, your hips and legs will automatically snap forward, giving you the necessary torque and weight transfer that is required to spin it. When you hear the phrase "he can sit on his back foot and drive the ball," it's the result of the shoulders, hands and arm being the main triggers, not the lower body.

Bortles will improve his lower body mechanics with more coaching and more refinement. The larger question is whether he can alter the way he grips the ball; if that does not change, he will continue to struggle to make the throws that demand velocity and distance. In the NFL, you do not get many opportunities in a given game to hit deep balls; you can't miss those throws if you expect to be a top quarterback.
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Trap_Star said:
Blake Bortles raising concern over basic skills
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I guess I just don't know what to look for. I see the same basic mechanics from Bortles that I see in....gasp...Peyton Manning. They have very similar throwing styles from what I see. Maybe the highlight reels I watch just don't show enough focus on the QB. And no, I don't thin Bortles is the next Manning, but I would seriously consider drafting him at 1.1 if I couldn't find a trade partner. My forced picks at 1.1 would be Bortles, Robinson, Jake Matthews, Gilbert, Clinton-Dix, Mack, Watkins.

I wouldn't be butt hurt over any of those picks. I would be very neutral over a JFF pick. Kind of hide and watch. He translates as equal to Vick, to me. Lot's of potential, but tucks and runs too soon to be as effective as scrambling QB's tend to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfqB80z8d24

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayD9_uCz4K0
 
DocBar said:
I guess I just don't know what to look for. I see the same basic mechanics from Bortles that I see in....gasp...Peyton Manning. They have very similar throwing styles from what I see. Maybe the highlight reels I watch just don't show enough focus on the QB. And no, I don't thin Bortles is the next Manning, but I would seriously consider drafting him at 1.1 if I couldn't find a trade partner. My forced picks at 1.1 would be Bortles, Robinson, Jake Matthews, Gilbert, Clinton-Dix, Mack, Watkins.

I wouldn't be butt hurt over any of those picks. I would be very neutral over a JFF pick. Kind of hide and watch. He translates as equal to Vick, to me. Lot's of potential, but tucks and runs too soon to be as effective as scrambling QB's tend to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfqB80z8d24

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayD9_uCz4K0
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i'd be pissed if we took clinton-dix at 1-1.

he's good, but he's not the second coming of ronnie lott or ed reed...even then i still wouldn't do it.
 
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