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Banks on Schaub

xtruroyaltyx said:
lol...

:ok:


If you guys say so...

I still think Kubiak is just as good as working with QB's...I really don't see the his title being tainted...

but...oooooook
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Mark this down then, if Schaub doesn't live up to expectations, the place they are going to start on Kubiak's QB failures as the Texans HC, will be Carr and how that carried over to Schaub.

You guys are sweeping everything under the rug regarding Carr and Kubiak's responsbility in that matter.

He has a huge hand in the matter.

Oh, thanks hadaad!
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
lol...

:ok:


If you guys say so...

I still think Kubiak is just as good as working with QB's...I really don't see the his title being tainted...

but...oooooook
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Like I said, I don't think I go quite as far as HT does but look at the interviews after the games last year. "That's on us as coaches. We have to get him ready to play." He says it himself.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
lol...

:ok:


If you guys say so...

I still think Kubiak is just as good as working with QB's...I really don't see the his title being tainted...

but...oooooook
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I'm right there with you on this matter. It's blasphemous blaming Kubiak for the Carr debacle.

Now I'm sure there were several times on gameday that he might have made a mistake or two. Which I'm sure he's learned from.:texflag:

xtruroyaltyx said:
Sorry...

That was just a long way of agreeing with you...
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That's cool. It just made me reread your post a few times wondering where the disagreement was. lol:)
 
hadaad said:
Like I said, I don't think I go quite as far as HT does but look at the interviews after the games last year. "That's on us as coaches. We have to get him ready to play." He says it himself.
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What did you want him to say? "Aw Carr sucks! He'll never learn".

I think we all need to just agree to disagree on this subject. lol :cool:
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Responsible for what ? Carr sucking, or for giving Carr the bonus ? Neither are his fault...



I don't understand the logic...
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There is no spoon.

xtruroyaltyx said:
This has gotta just be an Aggie thing...
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There is a spoon!

hollywood_texan said:
He has a huge hand in the matter.
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"huge hand"? Now you're back out on the ledge! :gun:

If Carr was still here in Kubiak's second season, I'd tend to agree with you. Otherwise, I think you are just failing to grasp front office power structure under noob owner.

Give props to Kubiak for trying to fix DC and letting him go when it could not be done.

I bet you take your broken car (no pun intended) to a mechanic and blame him that it's broken...

But yeah, like HOU-TEX mentioned, it's time to agree to disagree. :victory:
 
HOU-TEX said:
What did you want him to say? "Aw Carr sucks! He'll never learn".

I think we all need to just agree to disagree on this subject. lol :cool:
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Fair enough.

I don't think Kubiak should be fired or anything. And I think he's got way more positives than negatives in his history as far as QBs but, like HT, I hope he learns from last season.

As far as what Kubiak should have said, people around here have praised him for his no-nonsense approach to media relations but all I got last year was that he didn't adequately prepare his quarterback to play football. Maybe he shouldn't have said anything at all. Maybe he should have said "We need to get better play out of the quarterback position".
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Responsible for what ? Carr sucking, or for giving Carr the bonus ? Neither are his fault...



I don't understand the logic...

Every coach that was interviewed said they can fix David...SO in essence we would have gotten someone in here with the mindset that they were going to fix David regardless of who was hired...Would you have rather gotten a coach that would have stuck with David after last year or a head coach that was bold enough to move on ? Unless you think David is a stud and Kubiak just did a poor coaching job, I don't understand your argument...

Any coach we would have gotten would have kept David...What aren't you understanding about that ?



Yes, he misjudged something....You called him out on that...I guess you want props? :um: Kudos maybe? :confused:

We're all humans and we all make mistakes...What real live human being really expected Kubiak or any other human walking this earth to be perfect ? Maybe you just had unrealistic expectations....

He is not the QB coach, he is the head coach...

Since he's come aboard he has improved the team as a whole...The guys seem to have a better mindset, we have more depth, and we have some good looking young players...Not to mention he has hired, what seems to be, a very competent staff...Quit your bishin'....

:texflag:
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...excellent post-my thoughts exactly!! It's simple. How many times do you get offered the 'brass ring' in life? And, most of the time--if not always-there is 'baggage' that goes with it, usually marginal employee(s) or a request of some nature from the 'powers' to be...sometimes it all works out sometimes not.

I learned from watching others before me that the 'high' road was the best way to go, because the bottom line is to make it work And, when it does, nobody remembers the 'BS' at the beginning. If it doesn't, try something else, but--if you say no--you may never get the chance again...

People like HT need to try the 'list' method-1 list for all Gary's bad, 1 list for don't know yet, and 1 for the good. We all have our own opinions, and I'm going to list a few good--

1) team accountability for all
2) support your team mates/the organiztion/and the fans
3) upgraded where possible w/new personnel and getting Texan players to
elevate their play
4) stressed competition
5) flexible (unlike Capers) in his decision making--i,e. some players are
excused for 1 practice in 2 a-days

With Carr, Kubiak had one of those decisions we've all faced where--will we wonder years from now, what if? In this case, he gave David a chance...that was smart and it's over with now- Carr is someone elses headache...

In my management career, I was taught there are 3 types of decisions--right/wrong/ and none. Right-that's great. Wrong?-can be corrected...but NONE is the worse...leaves everyone hanging/no direction/leads to failure.


Bottom line-in my opinion- Kubiak had to make 2 decisions about DC. First, he kept him and taught him the best he knew how and, second, he realzed that Carr wasn't going to get better, so he let him go.

IMO, we will be a better team because of these decisions and all the other changes that Gary has made...HT you've got a defeatist attitude in that all decisions must be the right ones from the get go...don't think that exist anywhere...
 
hollywood_texan said:
I never said that I would have rather have had a QB coach that believed he could salvage Carr as the head coach. If you really think about what I am saying, I am advocating something very opposite of that.

I am talking about Kubiak specifically and his errors with Carr, which includes his responsibility. If he really believed Carr was not worth fixing, he should have taken care of that sooner, rather than later.

You guys are reading way too much into my comments.

Kubiak made big mistakes in the handling the Carr situation, therefore he is responsible and hopefully learns from it and doesn't make the same mistakes again.
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Hey.

If blaming the YKW fiasco completely on Kubiak helps you sleep better at night way out there on the Left Coast, so be it.

Just don't expect those of us who were closer to the situation to buy into it.

Whatever floats your boat.
 
It's truly interesting to see how Carr haunted us while he was here............and to now see how he still continues to be all-consuming of our energy...........haunting us to this very day
 
hollywood_texan said:
I never said that I would have rather have had a QB coach that believed he could salvage Carr as the head coach. If you really think about what I am saying, I am advocating something very opposite of that.

I am talking about Kubiak specifically and his errors with Carr, which includes his responsibility. If he really believed Carr was not worth fixing, he should have taken care of that sooner, rather than later.
You guys are reading way too much into my comments.

Kubiak made big mistakes in the handling the Carr situation, therefore he is responsible and hopefully learns from it and doesn't make the same mistakes again.
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I now think 5 other people have made the same point that I made yesterday to you and it never seems to register and I think the point will never end. Xtru tried to spell it out bit by bit. I understand your stance but you don't seem to really fathom that Carr would be here no matter what scenario you try to draw up. CARR would have been here last year no matter the coach. It was the owners decision. There was no convinceing him otherwise with Charlie sitting there still and Reeves around. Carr was already tainted. So if it wasn't Kubes, it would be some other schmuck that, as you put it yesterday, was the yes man for the owner. Not every good coach can fix every player if they don't have the skills or the want to change. Kubes could do nothing "earlier" but not take the job. What he did was the right thing though. He rode out a bad thing and then made his own decisions. It isn't a black spot because he got to the point where we needed to be by the next year. A young, up and coming QB and Carr moved along.
 
hadaad said:
As far as what Kubiak should have said, people around here have praised him for his no-nonsense approach to media relations but all I got last year was that he didn't adequately prepare his quarterback to play football. Maybe he shouldn't have said anything at all. Maybe he should have said "We need to get better play out of the quarterback position".
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I don't get the sense that Carr wasn't adequately prepared...I get the sense that Carr was what he was and it was just obvious that making a move to get rid of him was the only way to go forward after half a season. It doesn't matter how much you coach up Gifford Neilson....he is still Gifford Neilson and isn't going to be Tom Brady no matter how much better coaching he gets.
 
Actually, what I have said over and over, is that I am presenting a certain perspective. I am not trying to change your mind, just showing you a different way to look at this situation.

I never said Kubiak should be fired, we should have had a winning season in 2006, and on and on.

I am merely evaluating Kubiak in a certain area. It's like a QB that has had a perfect season all the way to the last play of the year in the Super Bowl. On that last play, he makes a mistake and throws an interception to lose the game. In other words, it's his fault. Therefore, you grade the mistake regardless of the year he has had. That doesn't mean he gets cut from the team or anything else. It's just an evaluation of that specific situation, it's that simple.

You 5 guys (as houston frog put's it) have your perspective, and I have mine.

Neither is really right or wrong. You guys seem to either think I am wrong or crazy. Well, I have news for you, I was treated this exact same way when dicussing in a Moulds thread a year ago that we overpaid for that guy.

I understand the perspective of giving Kubiak a free pass on Carr for the many reasons stated over and over.

However, in life, in my opinion, you gotta take the bad with the good. Sometimes not making a decision is making a decision. Therefore, I believe Kubiak is responsible for the $8 million signing bonuse and his release less than one year later.

Those are my last words in this thread. I have said more than enough already, and thanks for listening. Hopefully I explained things so you understand where I am coming from. If I didn't, it's my fault. See my consistency here?
 
hollywood_texan said:
Therefore, I believe Kubiak is responsible for the $8 million signing bonuse and his release less than one year later.
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Eureka!

Finally got it out of ya'.....



Not sure how or why you think Kubiak is responsible for the bonus...I just don't get that aspect of your argument...

If you wanna give him credit for the release, then more power to him :texflag:
 
hollywood_texan said:
I am talking about Kubiak specifically and his errors with Carr, which includes his responsibility. If he really believed Carr was not worth fixing, he should have taken care of that sooner, rather than later.
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maybe some answered this and maybe I am not understand some of HT's comments..

but how could Kubiak fix him sooner? It was not known what Carr could or couldn't due under Kubiak's system(which was NOT in place yet). Better yet all Kubiak could do is go by gamefilm on Carr in a different offensive system. It was a variable that hadn't been figured out yet and couldn't get figured out until the season started.

I would understand this logic if we still had Carr this season and was still going with him at starting QB.
 
hollywood_texan said:
Actually, what I have said over and over, is that I am presenting a certain perspective. I am not trying to change your mind, just showing you a different way to look at this situation.

I never said Kubiak should be fired, we should have had a winning season in 2006, and on and on.

I am merely evaluating Kubiak in a certain area. It's like a QB that has had a perfect season all the way to the last play of the year in the Super Bowl. On that last play, he makes a mistake and throws an interception to lose the game. In other words, it's his fault. Therefore, you grade the mistake regardless of the year he has had. That doesn't mean he gets cut from the team or anything else. It's just an evaluation of that specific situation, it's that simple.

You 5 guys (as houston frog put's it) have your perspective, and I have mine.

Neither is really right or wrong. You guys seem to either think I am wrong or crazy. Well, I have news for you, I was treated this exact same way when dicussing in a Moulds thread a year ago that we overpaid for that guy.

I understand the perspective of giving Kubiak a free pass on Carr for the many reasons stated over and over.

However, in life, in my opinion, you gotta take the bad with the good. Sometimes not making a decision is making a decision. Therefore, I believe Kubiak is responsible for the $8 million signing bonuse and his release less than one year later.

Those are my last words in this thread. I have said more than enough already, and thanks for listening. Hopefully I explained things so you understand where I am coming from. If I didn't, it's my fault. See my consistency here?
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I never said there was right or wrong. I just happen to think your reasoning is misplaced since much of your argument revolved around this notion that Carr could have been gone before last season due to a coach pushing an agenda or some outside force that allows teams to just get rid of people "earlier.". That is really where it all begins. Since Kubiak doesn't write the checks I will say your wrong. But I enjoy the talks and thank you for the good football banter. :shades:
 
HOU-TEX said:
IMHO, Kubiak didn't have a choice in the matter. Carr was going to be here no matter who the coach was.
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I think you are exactly right.

This one goes as a reminder to McNair not to be a Daniel Snyder or a Jerry Jones.

Kubiak, because he is a quarterback guy, found that the best move was to continue without Carr and found his own guy.

Schaub will be on Kubiak, but keeping Carr is on McNair.
 
Carr is on McNair. He has even admitted as much himself. Drafting Mario is on McNair vis a vis the decision to resign Carr (thus passing on VY) and passing on Bush vis a vis the pre-draft signability issue and the off field reports of NCAA improprieties/dishonesty by the Bush camp.

Schaub is on Kubiak and Smith. That much is for sure. Schaub and Kube deserve this year and the beginning of the 2nd year to make things work or the seat will be getting hot for both. It's the nature of the game. 5 year windows were unheard of in the NFL before McNair bought the Texans. Hopefully they become a thing of the past now that the Carr debacle is over. I will remain an optimist until I see otherwise. He hasn't even taken a snap yet for us.

GO TEXANS!
 
hollywood_texan said:
DB, all your points are not going make Schaub an elite QB. Schaub will have to do that on his own on the field.

Time will tell if Kubiak/Smith made the right decision.

Thus far, which is my point, Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.
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you DO realize that you made two contractory statements in that post, right?

in your first statement you say its the player's job to prove himself on the field.

in your last sentence you say its Kubiak's fault for not making Carr a good QB.
Which is it: The player's responsibility or the coach's????
You need to be consistent.
Pick one.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Not sure how or why you think Kubiak is responsible for the bonus...I just don't get that aspect of your argument...
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http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=2310

Gary Kubiak has made his share of difficult decisions in his coaching career. Today’s decision wasn’t one of them.

Owner Bob McNair, general manager Charley Casserly and Kubiak announced during a press conference Friday (transcript) that the team has exercised its option to extend quarterback David Carr’s contract for three more years.

“This was an easy decision for me, and I think everybody has known that from the start,” said Kubiak, who has studied film on Carr since the fourth-year pro starred at Fresno State. “He’s a fine football player and he possesses everything you’re looking for in a quarterback to be successful in this league.”

Kubiak says it was an easy "decision". Although later in the article we hear...the rest of the story.

McNair always has maintained that Carr is the quarterback who he believes can lead the Texans to the Super Bowl. He and Casserly have worked diligently to discover the formula that will help Carr be successful, and they seem pleased with what they’ve come up with.

“We’ve made a commitment to (David) and he’s made a commitment to us,” McNair said. “We’re going to work hard to give him the resources and protection he needs to perform, and he’s going to do everything he can in performing his job.

“We’re delighted to announce (his extension), and also delighted that we’ve got Gary Kubiak here as our head coach and as the person who is really going to have a tremendous influence on David.”

It seems that McNair and Casserly were trying to salvage Carr, and Kubiak was part of the "formula".

Did Kubiak really make a decision or was the decision made for him?

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=2309

Bob McNair:

"As you know early on this year when we were talking about what we were doing in the organization, we indicated that the first thing that we had to do was select our coach, which we’re delighted to have Gary Kubiak with us, and he’d be putting his staff together and after that he’d be evaluating our team.

“The quarterback is a key position and they’ve been evaluating that, and they have come to the same conclusion that we have and that many others have: David Carr is the person who can take us to the Super Bowl."

It sounds like Kubiak really did make a decision.

Gary Kubiak:

"This is an easy decision for me and I think everybody has known that from the start. I knew a lot about David before I even came to Houston. I studied him coming out of college, I’ve studied him throughout his career and I’ve continued to study him over these past few weeks. I’ve come to the same conclusion that I really had all along: I know he’s a fine football player and he possesses everything you’re looking for in a quarterback to be successful in this league. Along with that, he has the desire to be as good as he can be and to lead this football team, and that’s all you could really ask of a young man.

“I’ve been so impressed with him in my short time here as I’ve visited with him. But as I look at him over the past four years with this organization, the thing that really has impressed me is how this kid has continued to battle for this franchise. He’s been through four years now. He’s been through some good times, some really tough times, but he’s been there every week for everybody, battling and trying to do the best job that he can do. Now it’s time for me to help everything around him get better. All you have to do is look around this league. It doesn’t matter who the quarterback is, if you don’t surround him with good people and you don’t put him in a good system, a good environment, there are not many of them that are going to be successful. And that’s my job; to provide that system, to provide that environment and to put in the work necessary to make him successful and the Texans successful."

Am I saying that Kubiak is a bad coach? No. I think Kubiak came in here knowing that he had to work with Carr. He asked for Carr to work, and maybe Carr didn't. Otherwise, I have to agree that Kubiak does not seem to be a great evaluator based on that last quote from him, and in that respect I would agree with Hollywood. I think it's a bit ugly that he was clearly hired for the purpose of improving Carr, and now Carr is gone after one year. Therefore, I agree with Hollywood that Kubiak has little wiggle room left on Schaub.
 
hollywood_texan said:
Could it be changing the way he did things earlier is admitting some mistake?
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You could say it like that. Or you could say that he learned from an unsuccessful experience. How one decides to phrase an observation says as much about the person as about what the person saw.

hollywood_texan said:
I am not ignoring anything, I am merely providing a different perspective.
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Fair enough. ...albeit an accusatory perspective.

hollywood_texan said:
You guys seem to be advocating some group hug or something. I know I am streching things here, but that is what you guys are doing with my comments, see below.

I have no agenda, if someone screws something up, including myself, I call it like I see it.
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I would hope we all would. I know I try too. I suppose when you say, "Kubiak is using up his chances due to David Carr's failure" I must disagree. It was David Carr that ran out of chances. And as such, it is he who is gone.

hollywood_texan said:
My point isn't to advocate VY or some other QB.

Regardless of the draft last year, it was mistake to keep Carr! That mistake just carried over into the draft decision making process.
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You'll get no argument from me on that point. First, there's no way the QB of a 2-14 team should have been given an extension. That has never made sense to me. UNLESS, the owner foresaw that with Vince/Matt/Jay available in the upcoming draft the hew & cry of the masses to usurp young David would ring mightily throughout the TexansLand. And he thought, "well, if I give Prince David an extension, the masses won't possibly expect me to draft a replacement" ...but that's conspiracy theorist :cool:talk...

back to topic

Second, even given the impending arrival of Kubiak, "World Renowned QB Sensei" there's no way an extension should have been granted until the end of the season - (a) just to see how well the lessons took and (b) to serve as additional incentive for Carr to improve.

So yes, signing Carr to that extension was at best, premature and as it turned out a colossal mistake.

And I guess that's the crux of this discussion.

hollywood_texan said:
I think we can all agree that the $8 million roster bonuse for Carr was a mistake last year.

You guys appear to give a Kubiak a free pass on that decision. I don't give him a free pass and hold him responsbile.

I think we can all agree the handling of Carr from the roster bonus forward has made things more difficult for Kubiak. He shares reponsbility in that issue.
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That much is true. I said as much above.

You wish to place the blame for all of last seasons screwups at the feet of Kubiak.

I believe that you're placing the blame one step too low.

Let me put it this way, if I were Bob McNair, knowing that I painted the man into a corner when I hired him, there's no way I could, in good conscience, blame Kubiak for giving Carr that extension so soon or not for drafting smarter.

Obviously, you're the kind of person who can.
 
People underestimate the power of the owner and overestimate the power of head coaches.

Case in point: look no further than the Cowboys. Legendary HC Bill Parcells did not want Terrell Owens, but guess what? Jerry Jones overrode his head coach. TO is still a Cowboy and the Tuna is gone.

Now does someone really believe that Kubiak had the power and leverage to TELL and DEMAND to Mr. McNair how he's going to run his own franchise?

Yeah, I can hear it now: "Thank you for the offer, Mr. McNair. It is a position that I feel prepared for and one that I have worked towards my entire career. However, before I accept...."

yeah, riiiiiiiiiiiight... :ok:

I guess he could have told him to take a leap, and that would be the only thing that got him off of the hook with some folks. Not like it matters. He's still here and Carr is gone, with the owner publicly accepting responsibility.

It's history, water under the bridge, and pointless to hold it against Kubiak at this point.

Gary Kubiak will not be judged by his first year with David Carr. He will be judged by what happens with Matt Schaub. Period.
 
Double Barrel said:
Gary Kubiak will not be judged by his first year with David Carr. He will be judged by what happens with Matt Schaub.
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Actually, he will also be judged by his first year with Carr. The difference between the first year and this year is there are no excuses. Period.
 
Double Barrel said:
I guess he could have told him to take a leap, and that would be the only thing that got him off of the hook with some folks. Not like it matters. He's still here and Carr is gone, with the owner publicly accepting responsibility.

It's history, water under the bridge, and pointless to hold it against Kubiak at this point.

Gary Kubiak will not be judged by his first year with David Carr. He will be judged by what happens with Matt Schaub. Period.
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Thanks again for talking sense. Most people out there consider Smith and Kubiak's first real decision to be Schaub and it is on that move that their jobs will be judged. I have faith!This is the crossroads.
 
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