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Argument on sideline???

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SESupergenius said:
I think it's pretty clear from all of the level headed analysis and 2nd looks in this thread that the Carr Bashers have shown what tunnel vision they clearly do have and have lost a bit of credit after the guy did what they always complain about. He went through his progressions, made a play with is reads and accuracy and stayed in the pocket. After the ball leaves his hand and into anothers, its out of his control.
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Yes, he made a touchdown read and delivered the ball. As Madden would say, the receiver has to catch the ball in that situation. To throw to AJ under the coverage is a loosers mentality when the TD is their for the asking. AJ's hands have been questionable at times to. Their is no certainty to the catch. I will admit, however, that Bradford is very unlikely to catch the ball. I still think we would have been better off keeping Starling, but that's just my opinion. Same speed, but a lot better hands.
 
infantrycak said:
In the context of a conversation about going for the more difficult game winning option vs. the safe option, that comment seems a little odd.
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That throw was all balls and it looks like his confidence is starting to rise. Plays like that wont always be dropped and they will get the hook up eventually.
 
Texan281 said:
We're already 1-7, the season is lost. I'd definitely say it's fair to bench Carr and see what else we have at the QB position. It's not like things would get worse, now would they?
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I think the Texans already know what they have in the other two QB's. Ragone is a guy not in their long term plans and Banks is at this point a backup, no better than that. Neither one will be on this team next year.
 
infantrycak said:
In the context of a conversation about going for the more difficult game winning option vs. the safe option, that comment seems a little odd.
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That throw was all balls and it looks like his confidence is starting to rise. Plays like that wont always be dropped and they will get the hook up eventually.
 
BigBull17 said:
That throw was all balls and it looks like his confidence is starting to rise. Plays like that wont always be dropped and they will get the hook up eventually.
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Good thing Pendry immediately stepped in to knock it down a couple of notches!
 
SESupergenius said:
After the ball leaves his hand and into anothers, its out of his control.
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You are correct with this last statment, the other part is debatable which many are indeed doing.

The bashers as I see them come from many different viewpoints. Some talk about locking in, leadership, decision making, etc. So it is difficult to lump every Carr basher together. Just as OLine bashers all have their own ideas to improve the lot.

I have no problem agreeing with people that Carr played one of his best games. The Carr bashers, as I suppose I am lumped into, see things that give us hesitation to annoint him as the future QB with the prospective price tag that is afforded mid range to top tier QB's. There have been two plays late in the game against the Browns and Jags that warrant questions about his decision making - the running out of bounds vs the Browns and this pass against the Jags. If he continues to make these decisions we may have another Jeff George on our hands minus the attitude.

It would be helpful that everyone understand that most people on this board want to desperatley win and even show marked improvement. We come to this board to exchange ideas and express opinions. To say anyone is right or wrong is ludicrous. Only the 50+ people in the locker room, staff and front office really know what is going on. The fans are left with nothing but speculation and innuendo and therefore live in a tunnel.
 
Show me results, what have you done for me lately thats what i have to say about Carr as it's evident he's gone 1-7 this year, he's the leader of this team supposidely he has every right to be blamed a little bit, now i'm not saying all the blame but some.........the o line sucks thats managements fault, there line backing core sucks, thats managements fault, and they have an inconsistant secondary unit, again management (carr had nothing to do with some of the offseason moves well i hope not if he did than that gives me more to bash about..) you cant really pick out that many bright spots on this team, this is just a horrible football team any coach that comes to houston next year or gm has a task at hand its going to take some time to get this ship turned around......:tv: hey atleast we have a team to watch though.....
 
That pass was out of pure wanting to win rather than stay out of the redzone and set our selves up for another sack.
 
infantrycak said:
The other problem I have with your 30% is it is static. The option to Bradford may have only had a 30% chance in the huddle, but after he came wide open it had a 60% chance (when Carr made the decision to throw) and after Carr made a solid throw it had a 90% chance--the odds change as the play unfolds.
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Your argument lost credibility when you said a long pass to Bradford has a 90% chance. I don't think a 1 yard flat pass has a 90% chance with Bradford.

He wasn't so open that this play had a 60% chance BEFORE Carr threw it. The corner was right behind him, and the safety was still in a position to come over the top. If the pass isn't perfect, it is game over. Even if it is a perfect pass, which it was, there are a ton of variables that will result in a negative outcome. Obviously we saw one of those key variables, Bradford's hands.

IMO Carr made an athletic play, but the wrong decision under those circumstances. That has characterized his career to date. There really isn't anything you can say that would sway my opinion on that. Again, if it were any other down than 4th, I would have a different opinion on the play.
 
It's not like a FG would have tied the game, we needed a TD. Going for the win was the right call.
 
SESupergenius said:
It's not like a FG would have tied the game, we needed a TD. Going for the win was the right call.
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I don't know. Maybe the conservative thing to do was not go for it on 4th down at all. We could have kicked the field goal and tried to win the field position battle on the ensuing kick-off. Even if it didn't work, we would have played it very closely to the end. We would have been within 4 points!
 
They should have gone for the field goal cause that would have made it a better loss, and we wouldn't have had a four-day argument about the sidelines. I think Walker and Carr have probably settled their differences about it by now and are sipping pina coladas and are singing Karaoke, but we're still arguing it...
 
Well, I'm feeling left out...11 pages long already without my take! :heh:

Good pass, WR screwed up. Simple as that, happens every week in the NFL. If Bradford is good enough to be on an NFL team and is good enough for coaches to play him, then I don't blame the QB for throwing to him when he's open. idonno:

Now, the term "good enough" could be subject to review, but you'll have to ask Coach Capers & Co. about that particular decision, not DC.
 
Double Barrel said:
Well, I'm feeling left out...11 pages long already without my take! :heh:

Good pass, WR screwed up. Simple as that, happens every week in the NFL. If Bradford is good enough to be on an NFL team and is good enough for coaches to play him, then I don't blame the QB for throwing to him when he's open. idonno:

Now, the term "good enough" could be subject to review, but you'll have to ask Coach Capers & Co. about that particular decision, not DC.
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See DB, 11 pages long and you bumped the 12th!
! I just think it's funny that who ever is to BLAME, everyone here has just a little different way of changing the same concept!
 
TheOgre said:
IMO Carr made an athletic play, but the wrong decision under those circumstances. That has characterized his career to date. There really isn't anything you can say that would sway my opinion on that. Again, if it were any other down than 4th, I would have a different opinion on the play.
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Thanks for addressing the 90% number at the end or the post instead of the meat of the post--90% by the wa is clearly in the range of reason for a BAD NFL WR--put the ball in their hands, even bad NFL WR's catch it in the 90% range. Great ones are 3-5% droppers. Bad NFL WR's are 8-12% droppers.

How about addressing the whole point that the decision wasn't do I throw to Bradford or AJ?--that simply wasn't the QB choice, the choice was do I keep looking at AJ or go to my 2nd read.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
The Carr bashers, as I suppose I am lumped into, see things that give us hesitation to annoint him as the future QB with the prospective price tag that is afforded mid range to top tier QB's.
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Money is by far my biggest concern and Carr certainly has not played to his contract so far or to the amount he will be paid for the option. The question is what are the alternatives. I personally don't like the idea of using a top 5 pick on Leinert or any other QB likely to be out this year so that leaves a yeoman FA. I can certainly see the argument that the Texans would be better off with Kitna at $2 mil per year than Carr at $8 mil. But, there is no need for the slanted, interpret everything against Carr attitude of some around here.

There have been two plays late in the game against the Browns and Jags that warrant questions about his decision making - the running out of bounds vs the Browns and this pass against the Jags. ... Only the 50+ people in the locker room, staff and front office really know what is going on.
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True only the staff and team really knows. For example, many folks around here did criticize Carr for running out of bounds at 3:03 on 2nd & 5 in the Cleveland game, but here is something to consider--the basic game plan there was developed by the coaching staff. They called a passing play which might have had a completion, but wouldn't have eaten much clock or an incompletion which wouldn't eat much and would stop the clock. What Carr did was effectively the same as an incompletion since he ran out at the LOS--it may have gone down as a sack, but that stat alone is meaningless as a difference in the game. The staff could have, as they oh so many other times have, called a running play which would have kept the clock running. Instead they called a passing play then, and then went back and called a passing play again on 3rd & 5. It is fair to critique Carr for not sliding in bounds, but if you do, you should also be on the coaches for not running the ball--something we didn't hear from a single person.
 
Alright, after reading that article, I'd have to say that Pendry should have been in Bradford's grill for dropping the pass. Would Pendry have chastised DC if he had thrown an incomplete to AJ while Bradford was open?

You've got to trust your QB's field judgement. The throw was there, the catch was not.

Walker should have been in his defensive teammates' faces for allowing 21 points. Can you imagine Carr getting in a Texans defender's face after blowing a big play?

They should ALL be in Pendry's face for the pathetic protection (or lack thereof) given to our QB.

This is a sign of a lost franchise. We've seen it before on other Houston teams.
 
mean mark8 said:
The official word on the argument is that it was about not throwing to AJ. Here is a link to an article by John McClain about it. Don't know if it's already been posted, if so, sorry about the duplication.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3448216
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That's what I thought early on...but everyone jumped me. Go figure.

Bradford, who dropped Carr's long fourth-down pass that turned out to be the Texans' last play, told 790 AM that offensive coordinator Joe Pendry had chastised the quarterback for not throwing over the middle to Andre Johnson, who was open.

Advice from veteran

Carr responded to Pendry by explaining that he threw to Bradford because Bradford had one-on-one coverage with cornerback Kenny Wright and added something like, "Did you see that pass?"

Walker heard Carr fire back at Pendry and questioned the quarterback's ability to accept coaching. Then Carr got into it with Walker, and they had to be separated.
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I am sorry, but really aside from any Carr debate is this the most pathetic purported quotation ever:

Bradford, who dropped Carr's long fourth-down pass that turned out to be the Texans' last play, told 790 AM that offensive coordinator Joe Pendry had chastised the quarterback for not throwing over the middle to Andre Johnson, who was open.
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So Bradford is defending himself by saying "Pendry knew you shouldn't pass to me"--whatever, pathetic @#$#@. Waive Bradford yesterday, send Dunta out on 4 WR sets if necessary.
 
Double Barrel said:
Alright, after reading that article, I'd have to say that Pendry should have been in Bradford's grill for dropping the pass. Would Pendry have chastised DC if he had thrown an incomplete to AJ while Bradford was open?

You've got to trust your QB's field judgement. The throw was there, the catch was not.

Walker should have been in his defensive teammates' faces for allowing 21 points. Can you imagine Carr getting in a Texans defender's face after blowing a big play?

They should ALL be in Pendry's face for the pathetic protection (or lack thereof) given to our QB.

This is a sign of a lost franchise. We've seen it before on other Houston teams.
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As I have said for oh so long, its a coaching problem and players, fans and owners are all suffering................................
 
The first sign of someone who should not be on your team is the guy who blames someone else when it was his fault. Get rid of this jack-@#$
 
I dont think Bradford was assigning blame, he just told everyone what the arguement was about. He never said "Carr should have thrown it to AJ and not me." He said that Pendry was on Carr's case and Carr said something that Walker didnt take nicely.

Bradford wasnt blaming Carr..
 
Was Bradford trying to push off blame or just explaining what Carr/Walker were arguing about?

Edit - Haha, that's what I get for letting my message sit while I talk on aim. Damn you Fiddy
 
On 2nd thought I think I'm going to be even more blunt based on what it is being said. Carr finally had some you know what, saw an opening, put the ball in the receiver's hands for what should have been a TD. Vinny and others have long critized him for not having vision. I suspect he had great vision on this play and did what a good QB should do. BUT REMEMBER IT WASN'T THE OC's PLAN. REMEMBER YOU DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE TOLD AND DON'T DEVIATE OR YOU WILL GET THE AXE. What a bunch of loosers these coaches are. Its pure and simple. Manning would have been in BRADFORD's face and the OC's face would be cherry red if that statement was made to Manning. I'm beginning to think Carr has been in a heck of a position and he has always been a company man. That's the way he has always been. I think he tried to make Palmer's system work, but it just couldn't happen because of Capers and his staff. Remember, the O-line was Pendrys in part. I bet he dominated and it was really his and he should have the blame. Hmm, wasn't it Pendry who wanted to run the ZONE BLOCKING SCHEME. Bet the real problem is he really doesn't know how to run it...............
 
Fiddy said:
I dont think Bradford was assigning blame, he just told everyone what the arguement was about. He never said "Carr should have thrown it to AJ and not me." He said that Pendry was on Carr's case and Carr said something that Walker didnt take nicely.

Bradford wasnt blaming Carr..
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Not only did he not blame Carr, he blamed himself. Although I'm not too hipped on Bradford he did have the guts to accept responsibility for that incomplete pass. Then again, no game is ever decided on one play only so... :)
 
The coaching staff's iron-fisted policy is to blame.

They act as if the players are on a TV screen, and the coaches hold PlayStation controllers....dictating every call, every decision, down to the very idea of who should get the ball as a play develops.

If Pendry indeed chastised Carr for going to Bradford rather than AJ...then it only proves this notion all the more.

I couldn't figure out what was wrong with Carr this year, but now I know: He's the victim of a schizophrenic, paranoid, control-freak coaching staff that treats the players like a bunch of junior high first-timers who can't lace up their cleats without a coach's assistance.

Can any one of us blame the players for not having any fire in their bellies after 3 1/2 years of being treated like this? Day in and day out, you get spoken to like children, and on game day you're afraid to try and make plays when you get the opportunity because you might make a decision that goes against the way you "think" the coach would react?

Amateur hour in coachville. :cool:

Beautiful pass. Dropped ball. Almost no time on the clock. You get the idea that for Capers and Pendry, taking baby steps is the only way to win.

Get those guys into retirement so they can baby their great grandchildren.

I always said in my Carr hating posts (earlier this season) that I am very confused about whether Carr is a bust or if it was something else...always going back and forth in my head as to what's really going on. Well, I've made up MY mind for good: This coaching staff has squandered Carr, and probably even more talent (Babin?) due to their inability to coach today's NFL talent. Might have worked 20 years ago, but Capers and Pendry are as old as last week's meatloaf.

I feel sorry for all the players on our team. They deserve better than this. Even Phyllis Buchanon, which says a lot right now.
 
MorKnolle said:
I have heard such rumors too but I have to believe the Saints would be most likely to get moved permanently since New Orleans was already an unprofitable city and the team can't even play there for at least another year.
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At the Super Dome, every other seat is a different color so it looks from a distance that it's not empty, not like if they all were the same color.

bobby 119C
 
Mark Breuner on 93.7 today stated that he was very happy to see Carr make that throw to Bradford - going for the win, confidence, great chance to score, etc.

I tried to call in and ask him if he knew it was 4th down, but they wouldn't take my call.
 
Runner said:
I tried to call in and ask him if he knew it was 4th down, but they wouldn't take my call.
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Ha ha ha, they knew better than to do that, they knew what you were going to ask and they didn't want you to embarass Bruener.

I say, there's nothing like a loss to the Jags to get things stirred up, is there?
 
Here's a piece from Richard Justice's article on Carr's dad getting booted out of practices, that indicates the Pendry/Carr argument was about the play previous to the Bradford drop on 4th down.
Rodger surely would admit that Pendry has been good for David. He's tough and demanding. When David screws up, he hears about it. He wouldn't think of asking Pendry to tone it down.

Pendry got in David's face after he took a sack on the final drive of Sunday's loss to Jacksonville. Pendry was fuming about it three days later.

"We're taking too many," he said. "I'm not pinning it on one guy. There's just no excuse for it."
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So who's accurate about what the argument was about. Justice (via Pendry) or McClain (via Bradford through 790 am)? Was Bradford even around when Pendry & Carr were going at it? Makes a lot more sense to me that Pendry would be more upset over the sack on 3rd down than trying to hit a pass that would put the Texans in position to tie the game. Either way, it's just another example of the Chronic's inability to get their facts straight on a story.
 
Lucky said:
Here's a piece from Richard Justice's article on Carr's dad getting booted out of practices, that indicates the Pendry/Carr argument was about the play previous to the Bradford drop on 4th down.

So who's accurate about what the argument was about. Justice (via Pendry) or McClain (via Bradford through 790 am)? Was Bradford even around when Pendry & Carr were going at it? Makes a lot more sense to me that Pendry would be more upset over the sack on 3rd down than trying to hit a pass that would put the Texans in position to tie the game. Either way, it's just another example of the Chronic's inability to get their facts straight on a story.
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Did it ever occur to you that they could have touched on multiple topics?
 
just looked like he lightly touched on it and it wasn't the main focus of his piece...it hasn't been a big deal except on message boards.
 
Vinny said:
just looked like he lightly touched on it and it wasn't the main focus of his piece...it hasn't been a big deal except on message boards.
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Justice got a quote out of Pendry. Either Pendry was being misleading or that was what the argument was about. Looks pretty cut & dried, too me.
 
Lucky said:
Justice got a quote out of Pendry. Either Pendry was being misleading or that was what the argument was about. Looks pretty cut & dried, too me.
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Here is the quote...it sure doesn't look like they break down the argument to me. They just touch on Carr getting lit up for poor play.

Pendry got in David's face after he took a sack on the final drive of Sunday's loss to Jacksonville. Pendry was fuming about it three days later.

"We're taking too many," he said. "I'm not pinning it on one guy. There's just no excuse for it."
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The argument is referenced in "Pendry got into Carr's face after he took a sack on the team's final drive...".

I realize the Chronic can be difficult to read at times, but I think I got that right. Unless Justice has deliberatly taken Pendry's quote out of context, Pendry is saying the argument on the sidelines was over the 3rd down sack.
 
I don't even care about the content of the Carr - Pendry argument really...but I'm not going to make broad assumptions based on loose information. I'm just glad someone is jumping Carr for making mistakes now. The whole point of that piece was that some feel Carr was being handled with Kid gloves. His play has no doubt gotten better since they stopped coddling him.
 
Vinny said:
I don't even care about the content of the Carr - Pendry argument really...but I'm not going to make broad assumptions based on loose information. I'm just glad someone is jumping Carr for making mistakes now. The whole point of that piece was that some feel Carr was being handled with Kid gloves. His play has no doubt gotten better since they stopped coddling him.
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It is still interesting to note that what came out of Bradford's mouth (after his foot) and what Pendry told Justice don't seem to mesh too well.

That said, I agree with Vin...ANYTHING that'll help Carr's decision-making and progress as an NFL QB is nothing to sneeze at! :texflag:
 
There have been a lot of broad assumptions made in this thread, like the Texans coaches wanted Carr to go to AJ rather than Bradford on that 4th down pass. I've never seen a quote from a Texans' coach indicating that was accurate. But I have now seen a quote that points out that they were upset over the sack on the prior play. Which assumption is larger? The one with a Texan coach quoted or the one without? And this thread about this very argument is 200+ posts long, so some people care (or did). I thought sharing some info to get to the bottom of the story might be helpful.

Should Pendry get in Carr's face to make a point? Sure, Carr needs coaching like any other player. I don't think it would help guys like Wand or Bradford become better players, but I believe coaches need to know whose buttons can be pushed and whose can't.
 
Lucky said:
There have been a lot of broad assumptions made in this thread...
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so, you will just add more then huh? I made some comments early and as facts came out I just sat and watched. I'm not fueling this goofy stuf...but feel free...by all means.
 
Way too much on an argument or disagreement. Some of you guys make like voices never get raised or disagreement expressed on your jobs.
 
:slap: It does'nt matter about what they argued about or that they booted Carr's Daddy ( not Peyton ) . These are symptoms of a train off its tracks . I think both should have been done on day 1 .
I drop in once in awhile and watch my son's practice in High School . Why its his business if he's got a problem he''ll tell me .
You ever have that guy that when you stop off with the fellows ... has to bring his wife . Over time they don't tell him that their stopping .
 
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