False Start
On # 69
Gary Walker really had no reason to get on Carr IMO . He hasnt exactly been a warrior out there the past two seasons . Besides these last two games , I cant remember him doing anything spectacular .
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Argument on sideline???
- Thread starter GP
- Start date
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S
SESupergenius
Guest
How long would you give him then? On 3rd down and long you'd expect some pressure, just like we've gotten all game. I counted 2 seconds on the read to Andre. How many complain about Carr holding onto the ball and "locking on" to his recievers? Geez, you can't have it both ways. He on has fractions of a second to make decisions. Look at how awful the pass protection was breaking down with Wand in there. This is just so hindsight and it wasn't even Carrs fault.Honoring Earl 34 said:If a LB is with AJ its only for a blink . They have not invented a LB who can cover AJ .
I still consider AJ the best player we have on offense ... and on that note I agree with Vinny that I'd prefer losing with my best pitch . I will not complain though about the pass because it should have been caught .
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Vinny said:
After having looked back at again, IMO it is a function of the emphasis on getting the ball out quickly. Carr does look 1st at AJ--at that moment, one Jag has his hands on AJ still and is running right with him. AJ is running right to left and approaching the area of a LB. At that point, AJ is not wide open. Carr goes to his 2nd option finds Bradford open (and folks that want to talk about double coverage need to go buy some pie and stuff it in the appropriate spot--Deion Grant is so far out of the play it doesn't even count as double coverage--I would bench any QB who wasn't willing to throw into that coverage) and immediately takes his shot. If Carr had held his read on AJ another half second he would have seen AJ come open (which by the way it looks like the two Jags tangle on each other a little contributing to the opening), but how much has he been yelled at to get the ball out. His two seconds were already up when he went from reading AJ to Bradford. I can't see how this one play demonstrates below average QB play.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
Agreed, and this thread is about the argument (Argument on sideline??? is the thread title)...and the argument came right after that play. I think it's something that can be discussed amongst fans and without talking down to each other based on a difference of opinion. I'm not applying that to you, but this board is a board of fans talking about the game....and this thread was about that play. Discuss it if you want....don't touch it if you want to talk down to the posters for sharing their opinions.infantrycak said:
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
infantrycak said:
Fair observation, I will look at the play later.
Vinny said:
Good point. Here is my take on the argument to get back on track. I'm going to accept what previous posters have said it looked like the players were saying.
Previously the lip readers stated that Carr was saying something like "he wasn't open" in response to Pendry's coaching*. Anyway Carr and Pendry apparently bark at each other a while and Carr walks away from Pendry, at which point Walker steps in tells Carr something like "take the coaching". So that's why Carr and Walker got into it; we can each have our own opinion to the appropriateness of Walker's intervention between an offensive player and his coach.
However, I don't think Pendry was yelling at Carr about the final play. I think he was telling Carr he should have passed the ball on his last sack; to which Carr was saying "he wasn't open".
*Some people would call it Pendry's yelling; who would of thought that approach would wear thin so fast?
Texans Horror
All Pro
Runner said:
Carr should not be arguing with his Offensive Coordinator. Irregardless of whether or not you agree with the coaching (and btw - I don't; I think Pendry was more of a problem than Palmer), you are not getting paid millions of dollars to fight with management, especially not on the sidelines. It's very unprofessional. You should be a team player and do what you're told. Walker, like Payne, is just trying to keep the team motivated and moving forward. This reminds me of Young's time in San Fran when Mariuci benched him. Young exploded on the sidelines, then took the Niners to the Superbowl.
mean mark8
Waterboy
Runner said:
I agree that the argument was more likely about the 2 fumbles/sacks Carr had on our last drive. I don't see Pendry arguing with Carr for hitting an open man at the 5-yard line in the hands. As for Bradford, and all of the other receivers, quit diving for the freaking ball. Diving guarantees that you are going to hit something, either a defender or the ground, and it slows you down. Run through the ball and you will maintain your speed, have a chance of making yards after the catch, and not have the ground cause you to drop one. Bradford loves to dive for balls and let the ground break-up the catch for him. It's been proven that diving for a ball slows the receiver down because he is not continuing the running motion. How many 100 meter sprinters do you see dive for the tape?
S
SESupergenius
Guest
And somehow it would still be David Carr's fault.Vinny said:
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
oso said:
I agree with you up until the professional level and even then most of the time, but at some point I want the QB to step up and be a leader. That includes telling a coach he is wrong, underutilizing players, whatever. I don't want a bunch of open or media fighting, but I certainly don't mind a QB disagreeing with a coach who hasn't even had the benefit of game tape yet to say whether a WR was open. Pendry should have saved that for a less emotional moment like say in the game tape review session--exactly what it is for.
infantrycak said:
In addition, they are all adults. Yelling and swearing and stuff is OK for emphasis, but if it's your primary mode of communication I think you end up with pretty low bandwidth.
For instance I think Capers should try some screaming and stomping around, and Pendry should back off some.
This is my interpretation from 50 yards away, so it could be all wrong, but:
Next time you're at the game watch Pendry draw up plays or go over photos with the players - he has a lot of fire and brimstone, but it looks like one way communication to me. I rarely see a player try to make it two way communication, point out things on the paper for discussion, etc.
run-david-run
All Pro
He did not make a bad throw, AJ went one way whille Carr thought he was gonna go the other way. Seeing as AJ has been hurt and out of practice, that is very understandable... just so happned with the game on the line...Vinny said:
THEFUTURE
Rookie
anyone that can look back at that throw sees it goes right into Bradfords hands and he drops it.. double coverage, sure.. but they were both behind him. Carr put the ball exactly where it needed to be. if Bradford made that catch, no one would be saying a thing about that throw. it was a play that most receivers make, that Bradford can't... as for Walker, let him worry about his defense... cuz it needs help too. It needed more help yesterday than the offense did.
CajunTexan
Waterboy
run-david-run said:
In Richard Justices article in the Chronicle today, he quotes AJ as saying (paraphrasing)" I was winded. I looked back and didn't see him so I let up. Then I turned around and saw the ball in the air."
Who can blame him. How many times does a receiver look back and NOT SEE DC BECAUSE HE IS LAYING ON HIS BACK! Anyway, those things will happen with AJ having been out. I think that DC did a good job in the 610 interview of not putting that miss on AJ after AJ went on record that it was his bad.
HoustonFan
Veteran
Bottomline, both offense and defense ran out of gas in the 4th., and injuries REALLY hurt us. G-Funk is right to be fired up against losing to his old team. Carr just needs to be ready for battle when they come to town in the upcoming weeks - nothing like stealing their chance at a playoff run again.
GP
Go Texans!
Any updates?
As I sift through the posts, this is what I am gathering (tell me differently if I'm wrong):
-------------------
The argument on the sideline, after the 4th down drop by Bradford, was less about Carr throwing to Bradford and more about the previous bungled plays(sacks and fumbles).
The main players in the argument were Pendry and Carr with Carr possibly getting hammered by Pendry for taking a sack, to which Carr responded to Pendry that a WR "wasn't open.." on that play.
Seeing Carr's response to Pendry, Gary Walker tells Carr to "...take the coaching" or something to that effect, meaning that Gary didn't appreciate Carr arguing with Pendry.
-------------------
This is a plausible scenario. In the past few weeks, we've had Seth Payne step up and verbally challenge the team...and now it appears Gary Walker is attempting to also rally the team and lead them after a tough loss by reprimanding Carr for openly arguing with Pendry instead of just taking the same coaching that everyone else is getting.
Whether you like Carr or not, I think we all agree that he's not very good at getting in people's faces (in a DIRECT manner) to challenge them when they fail to execute on either easy plays or crucial plays. He seems to try and take a high road and not point fingers, at least not in an overly direct and personal manner. Perhaps Gary's motive was to let David know that sometimes being a man or a leader on a team or anywhere else means you have to let go of "what people think of you" and throw caution to the wind by challenging someone up front and in their face?
I know that Bradford scooped David away from the situation...I saw Bradford wrap his arm around Carr and drag him out of it while Carr was still engaged in the moment with Pendry/Walker. I think it's ironic that the guy who dropped the ball is rescuing the guy who threw the ball, as if maybe Bradford was taking the blame 100% and was not going to let Carr get caught up in something that was his (Bradford's) fault and less Carr's fault.
Heat of the moment? Most likely it was. All I know is that I'm glad to see a few players actually make a connection, in terms of providing some fireworks amongst each other, rather than isolating and building walls around themselves after tough losses. The mundane and consistently mournful attitude of these players up until this game was what was killing me the most...as if it was just another day, another dollar.
If anybody has any updates, or any correction to "how" it took place and "what exactly took place," let us know.
As I sift through the posts, this is what I am gathering (tell me differently if I'm wrong):
-------------------
The argument on the sideline, after the 4th down drop by Bradford, was less about Carr throwing to Bradford and more about the previous bungled plays(sacks and fumbles).
The main players in the argument were Pendry and Carr with Carr possibly getting hammered by Pendry for taking a sack, to which Carr responded to Pendry that a WR "wasn't open.." on that play.
Seeing Carr's response to Pendry, Gary Walker tells Carr to "...take the coaching" or something to that effect, meaning that Gary didn't appreciate Carr arguing with Pendry.
-------------------
This is a plausible scenario. In the past few weeks, we've had Seth Payne step up and verbally challenge the team...and now it appears Gary Walker is attempting to also rally the team and lead them after a tough loss by reprimanding Carr for openly arguing with Pendry instead of just taking the same coaching that everyone else is getting.
Whether you like Carr or not, I think we all agree that he's not very good at getting in people's faces (in a DIRECT manner) to challenge them when they fail to execute on either easy plays or crucial plays. He seems to try and take a high road and not point fingers, at least not in an overly direct and personal manner. Perhaps Gary's motive was to let David know that sometimes being a man or a leader on a team or anywhere else means you have to let go of "what people think of you" and throw caution to the wind by challenging someone up front and in their face?
I know that Bradford scooped David away from the situation...I saw Bradford wrap his arm around Carr and drag him out of it while Carr was still engaged in the moment with Pendry/Walker. I think it's ironic that the guy who dropped the ball is rescuing the guy who threw the ball, as if maybe Bradford was taking the blame 100% and was not going to let Carr get caught up in something that was his (Bradford's) fault and less Carr's fault.
Heat of the moment? Most likely it was. All I know is that I'm glad to see a few players actually make a connection, in terms of providing some fireworks amongst each other, rather than isolating and building walls around themselves after tough losses. The mundane and consistently mournful attitude of these players up until this game was what was killing me the most...as if it was just another day, another dollar.
If anybody has any updates, or any correction to "how" it took place and "what exactly took place," let us know.
The only thing I could tell that was different from the tape I watched yesterday is David had the LAST word. When the teams were greeting each other on the field after the game David was the one being restrained by somebody and he was not happy. You could tell he was being very loud and Walker just walked away with another man taking the tape off his hand. With a big scowl on his face BTW.
What I saw yesterday was Walker getting in David's face and David not really saying anything. That was before the game was over.
One of the local stations showed the footage but I don't remember which one.
What I saw yesterday was Walker getting in David's face and David not really saying anything. That was before the game was over.
One of the local stations showed the footage but I don't remember which one.
Texans Horror
All Pro
nice post, gpshafer
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I heard Carr picked up a ball and was going to hit Walker with it kinda like in the Longest Yard ... but would'nt you know it he held it too long and Walker planted him into the Altel turf .
GP
Go Texans!
(Updated portion is the last paragraph, contributed by WWJD):
---------------------
The argument on the sideline, after the 4th down drop by Bradford, was less about Carr throwing to Bradford and more about the previous bungled plays(sacks and fumbles).
The main players in the argument were Pendry and Carr with Carr possibly getting hammered by Pendry for taking a sack, to which Carr responded to Pendry that a WR "wasn't open.." on that play.
Seeing Carr's response to Pendry, Gary Walker tells Carr to "...take the coaching" or something to that effect, meaning that Gary didn't appreciate Carr arguing with Pendry.
The argument on the sideline, after the 4th down drop by Bradford, was less about Carr throwing to Bradford and more about the previous bungled plays(sacks and fumbles).
The main players in the argument were Pendry and Carr with Carr possibly getting hammered by Pendry for taking a sack, to which Carr responded to Pendry that a WR "wasn't open.." on that play.
by WWJD: David had the LAST word. When the teams were greeting each other on the field after the game David was the one being restrained by somebody and he was not happy. You could tell he was being very loud and Walker just walked away with another man taking the tape off Walker's hand. And Walker had a big scowl on his face, by the way.
--------------------
---------------------
The argument on the sideline, after the 4th down drop by Bradford, was less about Carr throwing to Bradford and more about the previous bungled plays(sacks and fumbles).
The main players in the argument were Pendry and Carr with Carr possibly getting hammered by Pendry for taking a sack, to which Carr responded to Pendry that a WR "wasn't open.." on that play.
Seeing Carr's response to Pendry, Gary Walker tells Carr to "...take the coaching" or something to that effect, meaning that Gary didn't appreciate Carr arguing with Pendry.
The argument on the sideline, after the 4th down drop by Bradford, was less about Carr throwing to Bradford and more about the previous bungled plays(sacks and fumbles).
The main players in the argument were Pendry and Carr with Carr possibly getting hammered by Pendry for taking a sack, to which Carr responded to Pendry that a WR "wasn't open.." on that play.
by WWJD: David had the LAST word. When the teams were greeting each other on the field after the game David was the one being restrained by somebody and he was not happy. You could tell he was being very loud and Walker just walked away with another man taking the tape off Walker's hand. And Walker had a big scowl on his face, by the way.
--------------------
S
SESupergenius
Guest
If that is the case then I'm ok with him being yelled at. Not that he really could do much about it, but certainly nobody shoud be getting his face for that beauty of a pass to Bradford.
I would have got into carr's face also his decision making at points of the year is horrible, im one of david carrs biggest fans but no one can argue the fact that he sometime makes stupid decisions, there have been countless number of times this year and even in that jacksonville game that carr should have thrown the ball away, stop trying to be a hero and throw the ball to the sidelines. If i was Gary Walker i would have yacked some more, i want to see Dom get mad at someone, you dont go 1-7 and then not blame ur starting qb a little bit :brickwall oh well the phrase "theres always next year" is getting a bit repetitive..... Fire Casserly, Fire Dom, Draft - Reggie Bush- (da new playmaker!)
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
gpshafer_1976 said:
I finally found out the real scoop on profootballtalk.com / rumor mill.
Texans QB David Carr and DE Gary Walker got into an argument on the way to the locker room after Sunday's loss to the Jacksonville (said Carr to Walker, "I've been hit by bigger men than you . . . lots of them . . . lots of times . . . what's my name again?")....
Posted only for comic relief from the strain of losing games.
Use link only if you must.
You will have to scroll down to find it, not worth the trouble though, nothing new.
cac:
Nov 7 Texans quarterback David Carr and defensive end Gary Walker had to be separated by vice president of communications Tony Wyllie, during a heated exchange following Sunday's loss to the Jaguars, the Houston Chronicle reports. The squabble was the by-product of an opportunity lost after a 14-7 lead heading into the fourth quarter vanished. "I knew you guys were going to make a bigger thing out of it than it is," Walker told the Chronicle. "I'll get with David. We'll take care of it. It's not a big deal." Carr addressed the situation saying, "That's going to happen. It's like brothers fighting. He's so competitive. And so am I. And when you put us in the situation where he's playing his old team and I am playing a team I can't stand and we come up short on the last play, we might have some words."
Views: The Texans hardly need problems in the locker room as it's obvious they have plenty problems on the field. This is likely just a result of a disappointing loss and shouldn't have any long-term affect on the team's ability to compete.
Views: The Texans hardly need problems in the locker room as it's obvious they have plenty problems on the field. This is likely just a result of a disappointing loss and shouldn't have any long-term affect on the team's ability to compete.
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
aj. said:
You may have something there. Any spark of life at this stage of the season should be appreciated though.
cac:
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
aj. said:
Do not doubt it at 1-7. I am sure lines are being drawn and knots being tied for multiple nooses. The day of reckoning is upon them and sides are being taken.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Walker was one of the players who did not think Carr's Pa should be hangin around the players . I guess he has other opinions also .
U4ikrob
Guitar Junky
gpshafer_1976 said:
This piece was in this mornings Chronicle and should end most of the debate about what the arguement was on.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3448216
"Bradford, who dropped Carr's long fourth-down pass that turned out to be the Texans' last play, told 790 AM that offensive coordinator Joe Pendry had chastised the quarterback for not throwing over the middle to Andre Johnson, who was open.
Advice from veteran
Carr responded to Pendry by explaining that he threw to Bradford because Bradford had one-on-one coverage with cornerback Kenny Wright and added something like, "Did you see that pass?"
Walker heard Carr fire back at Pendry and questioned the quarterback's ability to accept coaching. Then Carr got into it with Walker, and they had to be separated."
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
U4ikrob said:
We should fire Pendry right away for not agreeing with most of the posters on this message board that David should have thrown to Bradford.
Kaiser Toro said:
Or fire Carr for agreeing with them?
Apparently this play isn't all that cut and dried, if coach and QB disagree.
I've said before and I'll say again, either pass was OK with me, but I preferred the one that was thrown because it was aggressive. There are good arguments on both sides about if 4th down was the place to take the risk, but many people on this board have been looking for us to be less conservative. Less conservative means some shots at big plays won't work.
TheOgre
All Pro
I actually agree with Pendry, and I said such earlier in this thread. Despite throwing a perfect pass to Bradford, it was a mistake. On 4th down with sufficient time left to score, Carr needs to be going for the high percentage play to keep the drive alive and live to fight another play.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3448216
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3448216
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
TheOgre said:
May be a case of cranial flatulence, but can you remind me of when the Texans have successfully moved 30+ yds in 45 seconds to finish the game with a TD when they had to have a TD?
In the 2003 Jags game they scored on the last play of the game, but they took 2:40 to move 40 yds and didn't need the TD.
We got the ball on the Jets 27 with 1:04 in 2003 and couldn't get the ball in.
TheOgre
All Pro
infantrycak said:
I don't have a problem if that play is 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd down. The problem is that play is a low percentage one on 4th down. That is probably a 30% chance of making that play AT BEST. You don't convert and it is game over. That means there is a 70%+ chance that the game is over on that play.
Whereas Carr throws a 10 yard pass for a first it has approximately a 55 percent chance of completion. It might even be higher for a defense playing the prevent. So the game is only over about 45% of the time after that play. If you complete it across the middle (I think we were out of timeouts, but I cannot remember), you can run up and kill the clock. That gives you at least 3 pass plays from around the 20-25 with about 30 seconds left. Personally, I prefer those odds to the route Carr took.
Hey Carr has to begin to show some 4th quarter mojo soon or he won't be playing in the NFL for long. Just because he has failed in the past, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to win the smart way. If he continues to be inept in the clutch, then we find someone who can win the close ones. The difference in 4-5 wins a season can be these nail biters.
It doesn't really matter, we still lost. Despite what some of you guys think, Carr had a decent game, not great but good. He's out there with a patched up O-Line. No QB would be winning with us right now. His confidence is shot. I don't know if he will ever get it back. But we need O-Line for sure, and a different coaching staff all together. They all suck. We have a good RB, a good #1 Wr, and a good Db. That's about it.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
TheOgre said:
Here is my problem with that analysis. Yeah, the Bradford option was the lower % pass when the play was called. Everyone knew that, which it is why it was the 2nd read. IMO people are analyzing this completely wrong though--the option Carr had was not AJ or Bradford. IMO AJ was covered during the time period Carr was looking at him. The critical decision by Carr was not throw to Bradford or AJ but continue looking at AJ (read 1) to see if he comes open OR look to Bradford (read 2) to see if he is open--once Carr looks to see if Bradford is open, is anyone really going to argue Carr should have ignored the open receiver and looked back to see if AJ was open?--thereby losing the Bradford option (running out of space and safety on his way). Read 2 is there for a reason and Carr has been hammered here and by the coaching staff to make his reads quickly and get the ball in the air. The option wasn't between two open receivers, it was whether to continuing to look at his primary (sometimes called staring down the WR) or quickly go to his next read.
The other problem I have with your 30% is it is static. The option to Bradford may have only had a 30% chance in the huddle, but after he came wide open it had a 60% chance (when Carr made the decision to throw) and after Carr made a solid throw it had a 90% chance--the odds change as the play unfolds.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
metalmike said:
In the context of a conversation about going for the more difficult game winning option vs. the safe option, that comment seems a little odd.
S
SESupergenius
Guest
I think it's pretty clear from all of the level headed analysis and 2nd looks in this thread that the Carr Bashers have shown what tunnel vision they clearly do have and have lost a bit of creditibility after the guy did what they always complain about. He went through his progressions, made a play with is reads and accuracy and stayed in the pocket. After the ball leaves his hand and into anothers, its out of his control.
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