His observation in that paragraph is my fear.
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15932040&BRD=1675&PAG=461&dept_id=18170&rfi=6
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Another outsiders view of the Texans situation
- Thread starter Hookem Horns
- Start date
His observation in that paragraph is my fear.
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15932040&BRD=1675&PAG=461&dept_id=18170&rfi=6
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Man you really dug into the depths of hell to find that article, I've never heard of that site nor that writer before.
MorKnolle said:
I have a newsgrabber on TexansTalk.com that finds new stories all over the net on the Texans and their rivals every hour. It's interesting seeing how writers across the nation view our situation. Delcotimes is a site for a local Philly newspaper.
Grid said:
That's exactly what he said.
S
SESupergenius
Guest
He'll be a totally different QB in a west coast style offense.
Hookem Horns said:
eh.. in that paragraph he said that nothing Carr did fooled any NFL team.. which is true.. but its true of every aspect of the team, not just Carr.. and that falls on the coaches. I dont think thats a viable reason to say we must get VY.. unless he is also saying we MUST get A.J. Hawk, Hlatoi Ngata, Dbrickashaw Ferguson, Reggie Bush, Ko Simpson, Jimmy Williams..etc..etc.. to replace all the other players who didnt fool anybody.
S
SESupergenius
Guest
Stop....you're scaring me. Quit it.kbourda said:
The Article said:
Based on this statement from the article, we should not draft Young or Bush, but rather Mario Williams!! (or maybe A.J. Hawk?)
I've always said we'd need a defensive lineman before a QB. That's always the order of importance....right?
kbourda
Veteran
SESupergenius said:
I don't mean to. Since people are quick to say scrambling QB's don't last in the NFL, you can say the same thing about a QB learning the West Coast Offense. It's not the easiest offense to pick up. But if they do pass on Young and keep Carr, I hope he can be the exception rather than the rule.
S
SESupergenius
Guest
yea I guess you are right, the coaches we had a pretty good offensive system. Carr should have been league MVP under that system.aj. said:
Flash forward yourself to Steve Young from his days with the lowly Bucs or maybe flashforward yourself to Matt Hasselbeck when in his 4th year he threw for 15 TD's and 10 int's (Carr had 14 and 11.)
run-david-run
All Pro
one can only hope....also, if we do switch to a west coast, VY would have just as much if not more trouble picking it up. obviously this is not an argument that can be made for those in favour of VY/against Carr...
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
run-david-run said:
I don't think this is a very valid argument. I'm not a VY honk but considering the West Coast offense consists of shorter throws, quick releases, etc I'd think VY would excel. Jack Pardee was on the other day and said he needs to be in an offense like the Colts where they spread it and let him throw those quick passes. I know theirs isn't the prototypical but it is a version.
SESupergenius said:
If I recall, people were trying this bit before the season with Aikmen or someone.
chuckm
Veteran
Double Barrel said:Based on this statement from the article, we should not draft Young or Bush, but rather Mario Williams!! (or maybe A.J. Hawk?)
I've always said we'd need a defensive lineman before a QB. That's always the order of importance....right?
noooo you've got it all wrong ..... he need to build (or buy) a time machine, go forward in time to about 2012 and see how all these guys have worked out ... then come back and draft .... imagine Tagliabue's face when he reads the card ... with the first pick in the 2006 NFL Draft the Houston Texans select ... from Ohio State University, Linebacker, AJ Hawk .....
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
Hookem Horns said:
Just a quick observation a little off the topic.
Alternative history is an interest of mine. Who knows if Julius Peppers would have excelled coming to an expansion NFL team?
There are few players who are so good that they shine on a bad team. We've have had a few. But you will never know.
chuckm
Veteran
Texans_Chick said:
I've also considered this but in a different way ... imagine if Carr was drafted by the Steelers and Roethlisberger drafted by the Texans .... I'm not saying that Carr would have been as successful but I would bet my mortgage that Roethlisberger would be even more shell-shocked than Carr because he's less mobile ....
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
chuckm said:
I'm not sure about this. You are talking about the course of a franchise. Sometimes drafts and FAs are added depending on the players and their development. Roethlisberger was a strong armed leader coming out of college and he may have handled the situation differently. We will never know. Depending on how he handles it might have changed what personnel we got. I just don't think people can mix and match and say a certain person would have done or not done this or that. If you did that you could say that every bust might have made it in a different system when in reality, some guys just aren't made for the pros.
I think the point being made is that we arent an established team.. we are lacking in certain key areas... and Carr hasnt gotten a fair assessment.
I honestly dont understand how anyone can say that Carr sucks.. I can understand people saying that they arent sure about him.. but saying he sucks is just odd to me. How can you say that with any kind of conviction when you step back and look at the whole picture?
I honestly dont understand how anyone can say that Carr sucks.. I can understand people saying that they arent sure about him.. but saying he sucks is just odd to me. How can you say that with any kind of conviction when you step back and look at the whole picture?
Napa Auto Parts
Veteran
Well the writer does have it right i doubt even the greatest Carr homer Would say he was a better pick than J.Peppers thats who i wanted all along even but no one listens to the fans. look at us now four years later Peppers Is a Proven Great DE and our Carr Is on the right track to make tim couch look like a superstar.:brickwall
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
chuckm said:
I know, I just meant to say that I'm not sure if I could imagine what would happen personnel wise if say he threw for more TDs or if the team won more games and we went with more defense in drafts, etc. Just the fact that certain guys and how they affect the team could have affected the three subsequent drafts.
Carr has gotten more than a fair assessment by me, and he SUCKS. How many years is it gonna take before we get to be 'an established team'? Are we lacking in certain KEY areas? Yep, Quaterback being one of those Key Areas.
When I step back and look at the whole picture, it excuses some of the reasons WHY he sucks, but it doesn't excuse the fact that he quite simply on a personal playing level, SUCKS.
what I find confusing is how some of the same members who tout the Carr hasn't been given a fair chance, and its a team effort are the same one's who are able to analyze Matt Stevens playing, or Marcus Colemans, or any other team member, on an individual level, yet for some insane, blind homer reason are unable to do so with our current Sucky QB, Carr.
ccdude730
Veteran
thegr8fan said:
im glad kubiak and reeves are workin on their own assessments.
you really want to know where else we are getting killed? TE, WR, C, T, G, NT, ILB, CB, FS, K
football is a team effort, and so is winning.
we had an OC who yelled at him for taking a shot on a deep ball instead of a small pass. is it his fault the WR dropped it? coaching and this line has hurt alot of his potential. without football, there would be no next year
when? Honestly WHEN did Carr ever show a flash of his potential. For one whole half of a QTR? please. For one game last season against Minn? please. Those weren't flash's of PROMISE, they were flukes of nature. An anomoly. A lucky bounce of the NFL dice.
Show me what Carr has CONSISTANTLY shown as promise/potential.
but it is ok to pay big bucks for a player who is playing his utmost best game and yet still SUCKS? Carr is playing his heart out and it is still substandard NFL quality play. That is deemed a BUST. It is only a matter of time till the label gets applied permanently, IMHO. I am patient enough to wait for that time, but I am not patient enough to excuse his poor individual playing effort.
thegr8fan said:
In 2004 he was better than Matt Hasselback, Byron Leftwich, and Carson Palmer.
in 2005, despite a poor effort by everyone, he was comparable to Chris Simms and Steve McNair
sucks is a strong word, and not a fair assessment of what Carr has done with ALOT less to work with.
this is pointless though.. youve made up your mind and no amount of logic or fact is gonna make you change your opinion, bad as it is.
Why cant people just be fair with their assessment of players? Why does it have to be "they are a god" or "they are the worst player ever"? There is a little gray area that 99% of the players in the NFL fall into, ya know?
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
thegr8fan said:
The '03 Jacksonville game is the only flash of potential Carr greatness I remember ever seeing. He talked Capers and Palmer into going for it on 4th down with seconds left. DC showed brass as he dived over the Jax D into the end zone and I thought the team was headed for the next level.
Take this post at face value. Thanks to Houstonprofootball.com for the reminder.
Grid said:
Tony Banks has also shown promise at times behind the same offensive line. He has had some real good games and actually won them. Maybe with Bush in the lineup we will also be able to finally see what Tony Banks can do on a consistant basis. BTW, why isn't McNair throwing him $8 million also?
I just asked you for facts and you gave me nothing. I ask you to state where Carr has shown his potential, nada, from you. I ask where it was that you saw Carr consistantly play at an NFL level, nothing from you.
Please enlighten me and bring out some of these facts. Bring to me some logic as to how you see Carr as being able to 'walk on water without getting his pant legs wet'. I eagerly await for you to show me some kind of facts that support the argument that Carr does in fact 'cut the mustard' at an NFL level.
Please don't muddy the water with all the discrepancy's of the team itself. Lets keep this on an individual level and here is your chance to WOW me with your logic and facts. Bring them forth and PROVE how Carr is a starting NFL quaterback.
I eagerly await these logical facts on Carr.
trust me I am quite capable of changing my mind. I used to think Wells couldn't run his way out of a wet paper sack with a razor sharp machete, and a 'cut here' sign on the side. I now think after last season he could do it without the sign. He will still need the machete, but he did improve last year, I will readily admit that. So my opinions are not inflexible. They are pretty accurate though, if you bother to actually look at 'logic and facts'.
I think cause what you see is what you get with Banks.. hes been around the block and this is the player he is..no better no worse. And while Banks has had some good games.. he has also had some bad games.. and I wouldnt say that he has looked head and shoulders better than Carr at any time.
Carr still has room to grow into a better QB.. which is why I think he is being considered for the big paycheck..and not Banks.
Carr still has room to grow into a better QB.. which is why I think he is being considered for the big paycheck..and not Banks.
the fact he had to talk the Head Coach and Offensive Coordinator into letting him do that should tell you how much confidence either of those 2 guys had in Carr.
Don't get me wrong, gutsy move on David's part, but the defense keep us in that game, not Carr matching the Jags scoreing or running away with the game with his brilliant offensive playing.
Jack Bauer
Rookie
thegr8fan said:
Yeah, like Dungy in the game yesterday? Peyton just ignored the coach's decision.
thegr8fan said:
Eh.. no you are not capable of changing your mind..not on carr anyway.. not until you see more of him.
comments like this are why im not going to bother trying to dig up statistics from his games for the last 4 years. Didnt I just say that there is a gray area where 99% of NFL players fall? You are still stuck in the "hes a god or hes pure ****" mindframe. Carr has had good games.. he has been impressive at times... as someone mentioned, the Jacksonville game. I remember the other Jacksonville game where Banks broke his hand and Carr came in with an injured shoulder and ran the ball for like 20 yards... I remember the Patriots game in overtime.. the Minnesota game in overtime.. I can recall a few sweet TD passes to AJ and Bradford.. The Cardinals game this past season where, even though it was only one half, it was the only time Carr has had full control of the offense. But why should I bother to look all this up when I have to convince you that Carr is Jesus? I dont even beleive that Carr is that good.. I do beleive that he could be a good QB still.. and I beleive that it is POSSIBLE that he could become a great QB.. but I also see that he may never get better and could even get worse.
But we are making the right moves by bringing in Kubiak..and hopefully the Denver OL coach... if they can fix our line, and give Carr some proper coaching.. I think he will be in the right position to elevate his game. if he cant elevate his game.. then I will be right there with you saying we need to replace him. This just isnt the time.
and btw..
... thats just silly. this is a team sport ya know?
Why dont you tell me how great Vince Young is without mentioning the words great, leader, houston, hometown, running, passing, pocket, play, playmaker, makes plays, arm, strength, good, really good, awesome, future, hall, of, fame, a, the, superbowl, texas, UT...
etc..etc..etc.. you get the point. You arent asking for a fair assessment if you start off the debate with huge restrictions on what is allowed to be mentioned.
Jack Bauer
Rookie
thegr8fan said:not sure how this apply's to the price of tea in china
It applies like this: (take a deep breath, take it slow, hey its okay to exhale, you are turning blue!
) Peyton is a two-time league MVP, but Dungy is going to punt with 5:34 left in the game. Does the fact he is going to punt mean he doesn't have confidence in Peyton? No.then on this we may agree for the most part. However I do NOT believe he will EVER get better. If you gave him the 85 Bears Defense and the 2005 Colts offense could he POSSIBLY win a Superbowl, yeah, its possible.
But on his Potential, I sorely disagree with you.
and your wrong on my 'gray area' take on Carr. I do actually think that with a very large part of the Team upgraded significantly, he could be a 'servicable' (ala Trent Dilfer) QB who could learn how to not lose a game. If Fiedler with Miami can do it, then I have to believe Carr can eventually learn how to not lose a game for his team. But I don't believe he will ever take control and win a game on his back either.
Well I can understand that. I think he could become good enough to take a good team to the superbowl.. not a GREAT team..but a good team 
. Like Roethlisberger with the Steelers, or Plummer with the Broncos, or Hasselback with the Seahawks.. I think Carr could rise to that level. I dont think he will ever be the decision maker and consistent QB that Delhomme is.. I think Carr will always have that "chance" that he could throw an interception at a bad time, or just have a bad series, hanging over his head.
But I can understand your point of view that he is not going to reach that point.
. Like Roethlisberger with the Steelers, or Plummer with the Broncos, or Hasselback with the Seahawks.. I think Carr could rise to that level. I dont think he will ever be the decision maker and consistent QB that Delhomme is.. I think Carr will always have that "chance" that he could throw an interception at a bad time, or just have a bad series, hanging over his head.But I can understand your point of view that he is not going to reach that point.
S
SESupergenius
Guest
No I think I am comfortable asking you to flashforward to a point from a earlier point in time. If you are already flashed back, do I ask you to flashback to a new point in time??aj. said:
Anyhow, I'm sure you were thinking that Plummer would be in the AFC title game one day when he went 3-13 in his 4th year in the league.
HardKnockTexan
Rookie
SESupergenius said:
mmhmm.. that's what im talkin bout!