According to Justice, Troy Aikman May Help Carr This Summer

[Mr. White]

relax!!! it's only an expression...

I get you and I'm not as pi$$ed as I was yesterday when I posted that. My main point of that posting is that it just leads to a bad place. For example, the "Brokeback Mountain 2" thread in another area, a poster saying that VY's supporters "just want to get into his pants."

I'll admit that I got kinda bent. But, I said my piece and I'm done. I'll leave it up to the Mod Squad to regulate it when it goes too far.

No bad blood on my end....

 

[kbourda]

O Jezzy Chreezy. Now we are going to bring race into this. Give me a friggin break. Enough hatred, racism and he said she said cause they are white, black, brown, yellow, red, purple, pocka dotted and stripped, goes on in everyday life. We dont need to bring it here to the MB. If you will sit there and say Vince is being cast in any negative way cause he is a black QB then you would have to agree with Rush on ESPN on how McNabb only gets the spot light and publicity cause he is black. Nothing to do with the athletes physical skills. You cant have it both ways.

How is Vince being cast in an unfair light? He is going thru just as much as any other top rated athlete coming out in the draft. So please dont point your finger at me and say I am a racist just cause I want to keep Carr. Yes at this point I do feel you are saying somthing to me personally b/c I am a hard core Carr supporter. Besides if that were true than people would be screaming for Lienart. Remember him? The best QB in the draft.

I think most of the Carr supporting camp feels that Carr has never been givin a fair shot and has paid his dues. If anything positive is going to happen with this franchise Carr deserves to be apart of that.

Now can we get back to the Anti Justice campaign that I am trying to spearhead?

Did I say you were racist? For that matter did I call anyone a racist? All I said was I feel VY is a victim of the stigma placed on "Black QB's". If you read into anything more than maybe you might have something to really say. I just made a mention that I happened to agree with Porky's original statement earlier in the thread because someone tried to make a mockery of it. I just want that person to know there are people that think like that( a Black QB can't succeed in the NFL). Accept it or not. I'm of the opinion if a player is good, he's good. If he's wack, he's wack. If you people don't see or choose not to see what the reality is, you're kidding yourselves. I'm not about to sit on a message board trying to make people see something that is as clear as the light of day.

 

[kbourda]

okay everyone. Rub your ears and say woosaw. C'mon......woosaw, woosaw....I hate Richard Justice.......woosaw.......

Ok, so why do you "Hate" Richard Justice?

 

[kbourda]

I am not saying this did not happen, but I don't think the racism was as wide-spread as you make it sound.

True but I don't think equality is as wide-spread as you make it sound.

 

[TEXANRED]

Ok, so why do you "Hate" Richard Justice?

Cause he is white.

No kidding, joking. That was funny there, I dont care who you are.

 

[Texans_Chick]

1. I do not like the form of journalism that impugns players without getting into specific situations or naming names. "Some say Carr is a loner" blah blah blah. That may be true or not true, but there is no way to say for sure whether it is true or spin because you don't have a sense of the quality of the source. R. Justice does a lot of that in his columns.

2. If the Texans felt that Carr set a bad example for the team, they should have said that to him explicitly. Often, it is easier to see the problems in other people than it is to see your own problems--especially with someone's first big job.

3. Carr might be unaware of his weakness or perceived weakness in this regard as he was considered a good leader in college. See e.g.: David Carr draft notes

"Very composed under pressure, in the Brett Favre mold … Mature and confident field leader who is well-respected by teammates and very competitive with the opposition … Tactful in his actions, but will not hesitate to "correct" a teammate when needed"

"Has emerged as the premier quarterback in the nation … After being selected second-team All-WAC in 2000 -- despite working with an injury-riddled offense -- David took his leadership skills to a higher level in 2001"

4. I think that this controversy regarding leadership--whether real or spin--may end up helping Carr. If he stays, one would think he would be supermotivated to work on this area and perception. As it is, Kubiak says that it is up to both David and him to work harder to improve:

“I’ve been fortunate to be around two Hall of Famers in John Elway and Steve Young and watching them learn how to get there. It took John 14 years to win a championship but he kept fighting. Jake Plummer came to us from Arizona and a lot of people didn’t think that he could get it done. But you surround him with good people who work hard and he came close. He’s going to get better.

“David has all the skills that those players have. David has to do his part and I have to do my part in getting him ready to play, but I promise you I’ll find a way to make him successful because it’s in him. We have to get the people around him to help him out."

Kubiak quotes found in a Florida blog--as an aside, they took that quote to mean that Carr ain't gonna be a Dolphin.




I personally believe that 1. Carr will be back and 2. the Texans will not draft VY to get more tools around DC. It may be that the off-season VY draft commotion and anonymous and vague insults of Carr's work ethic may get him to work even harder than he was at both being a better QB and a better leader.

New boss, fresh start.

You just never know how stuff ends up working out in ways that you originally did not intend.

 

[TEXANRED]

Did I say you were racist? For that matter did I call anyone a racist? All I said was I feel VY is a victim of the stigma placed on "Black QB's". If you read into anything more than maybe you might have something to really say. I just made a mention that I happened to agree with Porky's original statement earlier in the thread because someone tried to make a mockery of it. I just want that person to know there are people that think like that( a Black QB can't succeed in the NFL). Accept it or not. I'm of the opinion if a player is good, he's good. If he's wack, he's wack. If you people don't see or choose not to see what the reality is, you're kidding yourselves. I'm not about to sit on a message board trying to make people see something that is as clear as the light of day.

What stigma? Maybe I'm blind or just confused. Or maybe its just to easy to use the race card when critisizing a QB's play. Right now who are the biggest names QB wise? McNabb, Vick, Gary Cole...I mean uh Leftwich, Culpepper, even Gerrard-a back up-all widely celebrated.

I will say it again. Its to easy to play the race card. Like in an ealier post you had mentioned you were tired of seeing Dilfer and Ferotte continue to get chance after chance. Why? Cause of the color of their skin? Hate to tell you Rodney Peat was in the League nearly 20 years, Charlie Batch has a Super Bowl ring, Tony Banks plays for the Texans, Cunningham was in construction building marble countertops when he was brought back in to serve a second stint and play for the Vikings, Moon just didnt know when to quit, Carter was given chance after chance after chance until his drug habit took him out of the league.

Do you see what I mean when I say it is to easy to play the race card? It is an insult to any of the QB's that I had mentioned to have to name them off b/c of the color of their skin. I shouldnt have to catagorize them as the black NFL QB. They should just be mentioned as an NFL QB without any racial catagorizing.

But thats just the way I feel about it.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Mission Accomplished.

This just means you have no argument. Defense mechanism: I was just stirring the pot (ie, I had no argument in the first place and was called on it).



Carry on.

 

[Porky]

This just means you have no argument. Defense mechanism: I was just stirring the pot (ie, I had no argument in the first place and was called on it).



Carry on.

Hey, it's the offseason. I'm bored. What can I say. I don't post stuff that I don't feel has some basis in fact, but once in a while, I may exagerrate something for emphasis or to foster debate. Read into that what you wish in reagards to my statements in this thread.

 

[kbourda]

What stigma? Maybe I'm blind or just confused. Or maybe its just to easy to use the race card when critisizing a QB's play. Right now who are the biggest names QB wise? McNabb, Vick, Gary Cole...I mean uh Leftwich, Culpepper, even Gerrard-a back up-all widely celebrated.

I will say it again. Its to easy to play the race card. Like in an ealier post you had mentioned you were tired of seeing Dilfer and Ferotte continue to get chance after chance. Why? Cause of the color of their skin? Hate to tell you Rodney Peat was in the League nearly 20 years, Charlie Batch has a Super Bowl ring, Tony Banks plays for the Texans, Cunningham was in construction building marble countertops when he was brought back in to serve a second stint and play for the Vikings, Moon just didnt know when to quit, Carter was given chance after chance after chance until his drug habit took him out of the league.

Do you see what I mean when I say it is to easy to play the race card? It is an insult to any of the QB's that I had mentioned to have to name them off b/c of the color of their skin. I shouldnt have to catagorize them as the black NFL QB. They should just be mentioned as an NFL QB without any racial catagorizing.

But thats just the way I feel about it.

Peete? Most of those twenty have been in the backup role. As with Batch, Banks, and King the same case. So bad comparison. I'm talking starter. Really, you making attempts to cover up this blatant bias is disturbing. It almost sounds as if you are trying to convince me that it isn't the case. It may be or not, I have no real way of knowing. But then again, neither do you. Like it or not. Choose to accept it or not. There is a world outside of your window. There are ugly truths and pretty lies everywhere. All I was simply doing was saying that I happened to agree with Porky's statement that he was (in a typical manner) basically laughed off as being ridiculous. I am full aware as to where I am posting. This is a message board where most on here are of the opinion that the world is a perfect nirvana. Well, i'm of the opinion that it isn't. I don't shoot down anyone's beliefs or thoughts. So why make attempts to shoot down mine?

 

[Jack Bauer]

Peete? Most of those twenty have been in the backup role. As with Batch, Banks, and King the same case. So bad comparison. I'm talking starter. Really, you making attempts to cover up this blatant bias is disturbing.

HUH??? Every single QB you just mentioned was a bonafide starter at some point in their career. It seems to me that you tend to make the facts fit your argument. At least that is what I see.

There is no bias against "black" QBs today. Vince Young will be selected in the top 3 of the entire NFL draft. How is he suffering; because he is not going to be the number 1 pick? How shallow is that?

How many "black" starting QBs do we have today? Let's see:

McNabb
Culpepper
Vick
McNair
Brooks (not at the end of the season)
Leftwich (Garrard could start for many teams)

This was off the top of my head. I might have missed a few because I don't typically think, this QB is "white" or this QB is "black".

Which "black" QBs out there today who do not currently have jobs would you think could win a starting job right now? This has been asked of you once before, but you did not answer.

By the way, I am not sure why this thread turned into an everyone is biased against "black" QBs thread.

 

[eagleputt]

Carr will be traded if Kubiak has thought about his future as the Texan's coach. His options: (1) Take Bush: Young becomes a superstar for any other team; coach fired. (2) Take Young: Young flops; coach did his best and stays as Texan's coach.
It's a no brainer...Kubiak's takes Young to solidify his coaching future.

 

[jerek]

107 posts so far on Justice's flip choice of words "attempt to explain the role of a QB." Brilliant--NOT.

If anything involving Aikman ever happened at all, the odds of that being the stated purpose by anyone is exactly 0. Jeez, talk about stupid overanalysis.

Pretty much.

Besides, if Justice or someone else in the paper/news/[insert questionable, highly-senationalized source] said it, it has to be true, doesn't it?

 

[Jack Bauer]

107 posts so far on Justice's flip choice of words "attempt to explain the role of a QB." Brilliant--NOT.

If anything involving Aikman ever happened at all, the odds of that being the stated purpose by anyone is exactly 0. Jeez, talk about stupid overanalysis.

Reading the thread, actually very little of the thread has anything to do with the title...

 

[thunderkyss]

HUH??? Every single QB you just mentioned was a bonafide starter at some point in their career. It seems to me that you tend to make the facts fit your argument. At least that is what I see.

There is no bias against "black" QBs today. Vince Young will be selected in the top 3 of the entire NFL draft. How is he suffering; because he is not going to be the number 1 pick? How shallow is that?

How many "black" starting QBs do we have today? Let's see:

McNabb
Culpepper
Vick
McNair
Brooks (not at the end of the season)
Leftwich (Garrard could start for many teams)

This was off the top of my head. I might have missed a few because I don't typically think, this QB is "white" or this QB is "black".

Which "black" QBs out there today who do not currently have jobs would you think could win a starting job right now? This has been asked of you once before, but you did not answer.

By the way, I am not sure why this thread turned into an everyone is biased against "black" QBs thread.

Wow, I missed a lot on this thread.
1) there is a bias against Black QBs in this league..... It's not as prevalent as it used to be, because for the most part, teams have decided they want to win above all else. So for the most part, and as far as the Texans are concerned, I don't think it exists, or that it is much of a problem.
2) I doubt seriously that a black QB would have the same free ride David Carr has had......... I honestly don't think any QB Black, White, Puerto Rican.... would have been given the free ride David Carr has had....
3) I don't really know that it is a free ride. Dude has been sacked quite a bit, and he doesn't really complain like we've seen many an NFL athlete has. Now, I'm of the opinion that many of those sacks were either avoidable, or David's own doing...... once more people see it this way, David's ride will be over.
4) Quincy Carter wasn't given a fair shot by anyone(most fans) because he is black. the drug thing bailed most of the Quincy haters out. He had a very good season in 2003. Looked like he was making strides in his game, and he was saying all the right things. But they still wanted him out, even though he took the team to their first playoff game, in almost a decade. Mark it down, there will never be a black QB in Dallas, that will be supported by the fans, Vince Young or not...
5) McNabb, Vick, Cullpepper, won't win a SuperBowl. Untill they do, there will be a stigma against all running QBs, black or white. Even though I try to put Ben Rothlisburger into this group, he isn't.

 

[TEXANRED]

Peete? Most of those twenty have been in the backup role. As with Batch, Banks, and King the same case. So bad comparison. I'm talking starter. Really, you making attempts to cover up this blatant bias is disturbing. It almost sounds as if you are trying to convince me that it isn't the case. It may be or not, I have no real way of knowing. But then again, neither do you. Like it or not. Choose to accept it or not. There is a world outside of your window. There are ugly truths and pretty lies everywhere. All I was simply doing was saying that I happened to agree with Porky's statement that he was (in a typical manner) basically laughed off as being ridiculous. I am full aware as to where I am posting. This is a message board where most on here are of the opinion that the world is a perfect nirvana. Well, i'm of the opinion that it isn't. I don't shoot down anyone's beliefs or thoughts. So why make attempts to shoot down mine?

First I would like to start out by saying that I am not trying to shoot you down. I apologize if you feel that way. I am however disturbed that you would have the opinion that any critisizim that is handed down about Vince would be racialy driven. Why? Have we become so conditioned in this country that anything negative written or stated about a black athlete has to b/c of his color. All athletes are put under a microscope in any sport regardless of race, sex, or religion. What makes Vince any better than any one else?

My comparisons of Batch and Banks are the same as your Dilfer and Ferotte. Unless I am missunderstanding you, Batch, Banks, king, Carter, and Stewart's talents are at a much higher level than that of Dilfer and Ferotte and warented draft picks for trades and or high dollar contracts to thrown at them. Not like the Dolphins and Browns are keeping Dilfer and Ferotte and making them the corner stone of there franchise. These guys are career backups who fell into a starting role this last season.

I am trying to convince you there is no blatent bias. There is no conspiracy and the man is not coming to get you. I understand there is a world outside my window, I also understand its the NFL and the best athlete gets the job. The NFL gains nothing by holding back an athlete that puts butts in the seat.

I just dont understand your point of view so that is why we are discussing this on the MB.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Wow, I missed a lot on this thread.
1) there is a bias against Black QBs in this league..... It's not as prevalent as it used to be, because for the most part, teams have decided they want to win above all else. So for the most part, and as far as the Texans are concerned, I don't think it exists, or that it is much of a problem.
2) I doubt seriously that a black QB would have the same free ride David Carr has had......... I honestly don't think any QB Black, White, Puerto Rican.... would have been given the free ride David Carr has had....
3) I don't really know that it is a free ride. Dude has been sacked quite a bit, and he doesn't really complain like we've seen many an NFL athlete has. Now, I'm of the opinion that many of those sacks were either avoidable, or David's own doing...... once more people see it this way, David's ride will be over.
4) Quincy Carter wasn't given a fair shot by anyone(most fans) because he is black. the drug thing bailed most of the Quincy haters out. He had a very good season in 2003. Looked like he was making strides in his game, and he was saying all the right things. But they still wanted him out, even though he took the team to their first playoff game, in almost a decade. Mark it down, there will never be a black QB in Dallas, that will be supported by the fans, Vince Young or not...
5) McNabb, Vick, Cullpepper, won't win a SuperBowl. Untill they do, there will be a stigma against all running QBs, black or white. Even though I try to put Ben Rothlisburger into this group, he isn't.

The whole response is mind-boggling. Did you just pick a post to respond to or is this actually a response to my post. I find that the statement that I highlighted to be totally unsubstantiated and would ask that you offer some proof? Why would Dallas not support a black QB??? Regarding Quincy, the Jets picked him up and didn't think he was talented enough to keep ahead of Kliff Kingsbury.

 

[TEXANRED]

Wow, I missed a lot on this thread.
1) there is a bias against Black QBs in this league.....
2) I doubt seriously that a black QB would have the same free ride David Carr has had......... I honestly don't think any QB Black, White, Puerto Rican.... would have been given the free ride David Carr has had....
4) Quincy Carter wasn't given a fair shot by anyone(most fans) because he is black. the drug thing bailed most of the Quincy haters out. He had a very good season in 2003. Looked like he was making strides in his game, and he was saying all the right things. But they still wanted him out, even though he took the team to their first playoff game, in almost a decade. Mark it down, there will never be a black QB in Dallas, that will be supported by the fans, Vince Young or not...
5) McNabb, Vick, Cullpepper, won't win a SuperBowl. Untill they do, there will be a stigma against all running QBs, black or white. Even though I try to put Ben Rothlisburger into this group, he isn't.

I dont understand how there can be a bias against black QB's? I just dont. If you are a coach whos job it is to win and produce and the best athlete is black, why would he pass on him when its his job on the line?

Warren Moon took four years to get the Oilers to there first playoff game so I dont see where you get David is getting any more of a free ride than Moon and last I checked Moon is black. (I know that is a little sarcastic but I couldnt help it)

Carter was a terrible QB. You wanna talk about a free ride. Wasent he a third stringer for his college team? Dont forget what got the Cowboys to there playoff game-1) NFC team where 8-8 gets you in 2) Cowboys had the #1 D that year.

Why cant Vick, McNabb, Cullpepper win a Superbowl?

 

[thunderkyss]

The whole response is mind-boggling. Did you just pick a post to respond to or is this actually a response to my post. I find that the statement that I highlighted to be totally unsubstantiated and would ask that you offer some proof? Why would Dallas not support a black QB??? Regarding Quincy, the Jets picked him up and didn't think he was talented enough to keep ahead of Kliff Kingsbury.

No, not to you in particular, yours was the last in this line fo the thread before I decided to respond.

There is no proof to substantiate my beliefe. But I have no doubt. would love to be proven wrong.


to the other posters....


Quincy, I got kicked off the jets, because he popped positive again.... that was when I stopped defending him.

Warren Moon.................. I only caught the tail end of his carreer. If you're telling me his numbers were on par with Carr for his first four years, I'll admit I was wrong.

 

[thunderkyss]

eason Team(s) Games Passing Rushing Fumbles Total
Points
Comp Att Comp % Yds Yds/Att TD Int Pass
Rating Rush Yds Avg TD
1984 HOU 16 259 450 57.6 3,338 7.42 12 14 76.9 58 211 3.6 1 17 6
1985 HOU 14 200 377 53.1 2,709 7.19 15 19 68.5 39 130 3.3 0 12 0
1986 HOU 15 256 488 52.5 3,489 7.15 13 26 62.3 42 157 3.7 2 11 12
1987 HOU 12 184 368 50.0 2,806 7.63 21 18 74.2 34 112 3.3 3 8 18
1988 HOU 11 160 294 54.4 2,327 7.91 17 8 88.4 33 88 2.7 5 8 30
1989 HOU 16 280 464 60.3 3,631 7.83 23 14 88.9 70 268 3.8 4 11 24


Comparable.... But his worse year, he threw for 2,327 yards in 11 games... wow. Okay, I was wrong about that. and i could be wrong about everything else......

 

[Runner]

There is no proof to substantiate my beliefe. But I have no doubt. would love to be proven wrong.

Too bad it is impossible to prove a negative.

 

[Double Barrel]

yikes.....can someone please give me back the last 30 minutes of my life that I just spent reading this thread?

So...Aikman wants to tutor Carr. The most I can muster is an apathetic hope to see some results come August...

The majority of this thread is speculative off-season nonsense...a whole lotta'

anyway, carry on. Looks like y'all are having fun with it.

 

[NFLforher]

If that was the case, then Carr's father would still be allowed at practices.

Not true.

Yeah, the Trojans lost the big one this year but Pete has been letting the player's families come to practices for years.

 

[WWJD]

I remember when I was in Dallas and Troy had some tough times reading an DMN article in which he said he called Dan Marino sometimes for advice of just being an NFL QB...that was Troy's hero. Roger also helped him out too.

I'd be very glad to have Troy's imput with David...it cannot be a bad thing to get advice from him. He's been there and done that. And if he's willing to help great!

 

[powerfuldragon]

yikes.....can someone please give me back the last 30 minutes of my life that I just spent reading this thread?

So...Aikman wants to tutor Carr. The most I can muster is an apathetic hope to see some results come August...

The majority of this thread is speculative off-season nonsense...a whole lotta'

anyway, carry on. Looks like y'all are having fun with it.

couldn't have said it any better, myself.

 

[thunderkyss]

I remember when I was in Dallas and Troy had some tough times reading an DMN article in which he said he called Dan Marino sometimes for advice of just being an NFL QB...that was Troy's hero. Roger also helped him out too.

I'd be very glad to have Troy's imput with David...it cannot be a bad thing to get advice from him. He's been there and done that. And if he's willing to help great!

The thing I find most intrigueing about the whole deal, is that someone else is bringing Troy in to mentor David(well that's the rumor anyway) I'd have felt much better, had we found out that David took the initiative himself to get the help he obviously needs......... of course, since he was given the job with no competition, has never had his job threatened, and wasn't given any coaching, maybe he doesn't think he has done anything wrong, and doesn't need improving.

 

[WWJD]

Troy has said many times that he didn't start excelling until he got great coaching under Turner and Zampese....he had the tools to succeed but needed the know how.

Perhaps David and Troy are friends and speak on the phone..perhaps that's how this all came about.

Even the most accomplished person in the world needs a helping hand sometimes.

If Troy is willing to help David and David is open to his advice it can only help. Personally I already believe Kubiak will fill in alot of gaps in David's game.

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

Troy is Carrs' NFL idol a far as modern day QB's go. He said so when he was asked about why he chose #8. Maybe thats why someone statred this thread about him getting tutored by Troy.