abc13 - peyton wants to be a texan coming up in sports

[thunderkyss]

True or false?

The Texans would've beaten the Ravens with Schaub?

It all depends on how the man handles pressure. Not the in your face pressure of the pass rush, Tj wasn't sacked at all in that game.

But the pressure of having the ball in your hand with a play-off game on the line.

Matt hasn't played in a game of that magnitude in a.. well, ever. He hasn't played extremely well with the game on the line & the ball in his hands since... well, it's been a long time. I personally question if he could do it again.

Yeah, the defense has let him down several times. I'm not denying that. But the last time Schaub faced the Ravens he didn't do enough to get us the win (not just him, several others as well, but Matt was there). Even the time before that, the last mistake of that game was made by Matt Schaub.

So, if Schaub was healthy playing that game.... the Homer in me says we would have won it. The realist in me says, this team (now) is strong enough to handle a little QB controversy. Instead of bringing someone in to push Tj, let's bring someone in to push both of them.

 

[GP]

True or false?

The Texans would've beaten the Ravens with Schaub?

True. MAYBE.

I have to think the Owen Daniels hand injury prohibited him from playing the sort of role he normally plays for his QB, and Schaub loves to go to OD every game with that huge seam-splitting route and the across-the-field routes that leave OD on an island.

And I have to wonder how Schaub would have dealt with Ed Reed and that whole dynamic. Probably would've been smarter about it than Yates was, but still...I could see Schaub failing to read Ed Reed properly on a few throws that might have also ended up as picks.

But yeah, I think we found a wall for Yates to run into...which, IMO, was his mini version of his sophomore slump--The part where a guy has spent all his money and has to find new ways to pay the bills. I happen to think Yates can have a great 2012 if he runs with the 1's in OTAs, camp, etc. He needs a full regimen of QB1 duties. And with the Schaub injury, I think he'll get that.

 

[2012Champs]

True. MAYBE.

I have to think the Owen Daniels hand injury prohibited him from playing the sort of role he normally plays for his QB, and Schaub loves to go to OD every game with that huge seam-splitting route and the across-the-field routes that leave OD on an island.

And I have to wonder how Schaub would have dealt with Ed Reed and that whole dynamic. Probably would've been smarter about it than Yates was, but still...I could see Schaub failing to read Ed Reed properly on a few throws that might have also ended up as picks.

But yeah, I think we found a wall for Yates to run into...which, IMO, was his mini version of his sophomore slump--The part where a guy has spent all his money and has to find new ways to pay the bills. I happen to think Yates can have a great 2012 if he runs with the 1's in OTAs, camp, etc. He needs a full regimen of QB1 duties. And with the Schaub injury, I think he'll get that.

Yates didnt hit a wall in balt, his wall was only scoring 16ppg

 

[GP]

Yates didnt hit a wall in balt, his wall was only scoring 16ppg

Not sure I agree with that.

He found ways to make plays...see both the Bengals game, one of which was on the road and he clinched the game with a last-second throw that he easily could have choked away, the other was a playoff game where he played solidly all day.

In the Baltimore game, he looked like he was out of his element and he couldn't string together a consistent drive to save his life. IMO, it was this game that it all caught up to him. Some think he had previously been playing over his head, but I think he hit a wall in terms of the overall lack of preparation he had been given (due to running scout team and not running with the 1's, plus not having a full off-season due to the lockout). Give the guy a full off-season, OTAs, and camp as the QB1 and I think he makes a leap forward in 2012.

BUT...it would sure be nice if he has Foster AND Tate to lean on while testing those sophomore waters.

 

[ckhouston]

True or false?

The Texans would've beaten the Ravens with Schaub?

Or you could pose the same T/F scenario by saying we would have beat them if JJ wasn't on the team. That play changed the momentum, and complexion of the game completely. Of course we will never know how either scenario would have played out.

 

[2012Champs]

Not sure I agree with that.

He found ways to make plays...see both the Bengals game, one of which was on the road and he clinched the game with a last-second throw that he easily could have choked away, the other was a playoff game where he played solidly all day.

In the Baltimore game, he looked like he was out of his element and he couldn't string together a consistent drive to save his life. IMO, it was this game that it all caught up to him. Some think he had previously been playing over his head, but I think he hit a wall in terms of the overall lack of preparation he had been given (due to running scout team and not running with the 1's, plus not having a full off-season due to the lockout). Give the guy a full off-season, OTAs, and camp as the QB1 and I think he makes a leap forward in 2012.

BUT...it would sure be nice if he has Foster AND Tate to lean on while testing those sophomore waters.

Really? You dont agree that scoring on avg 16 points wasnt our problem with Yates? Funny I think Schaub was avg 27 ppg. I think too many people over look Yates and his rookie way because he picked up some early wins but the kid had breaks along the way. 3 ints in balt was just the start because balt dropped another 2-3, he a couple more easy pics dropped before that game, one pic 6 called back etc. All that said 16 ppg isnt going to cut it

 

[2012Champs]

Or you could pose the same T/F scenario by saying we would have beat them if JJ wasn't on the team. That play changed the momentum, and complexion of the game completely. Of course we will never know how either scenario would have played out.

Yeah 5 min into the game we were smashed and lost all momentum being down 4 points with no hope of recovering

 

[Texan_Bill]

Or you could pose the same T/F scenario by saying we would have beat them if JJ wasn't on the team. That play changed the momentum, and complexion of the game completely. Of course we will never know how either scenario would have played out.

I was just getting that taste out of my mouth, and there you go forcefeeding me a **** sandwich.

 

[HOU-TEX]

Or you could pose the same T/F scenario by saying we would have beat them if JJ wasn't on the team. That play changed the momentum, and complexion of the game completely. Of course we will never know how either scenario would have played out.

Changed the momentum of the game on the Ravens 1st possession of the game? Doubtful, but your point is semi-valid

However, 2 of Yates' INTs were huge for the Ravens. Throwing a pick on 1st down from your own 23 to AJ, who was quadruple covered. And an INT from the Ravens 38, which iced the game for the Ravens.

Now, without getting into a painful debate over that game, I think Schaub would've led us to a W. But you're right, it's all speculation. I don't consider myself a Schaub hater or lover (whatever the term is), but even with his token bonehead play in big games we get the W IMO.

 

[GP]

Really? You dont agree that scoring on avg 16 points wasnt our problem with Yates? Funny I think Schaub was avg 27 ppg. I think too many people over look Yates and his rookie way because he picked up some early wins but the kid had breaks along the way. 3 ints in balt was just the start because balt dropped another 2-3, he a couple more easy pics dropped before that game, one pic 6 called back etc. All that said 16 ppg isnt going to cut it

Two HUGE factors going on with the 16 ppg stat.

1. Yates is obviously not Hall of Fame material right now. Duh. Let's keep it in proper perspective about where he was then, and where he can be in 2012. A lot of this can be washed away if Yates is given more time with the 1's as I state over and over. You can't just enter an NFL game and rattle off 27 ppg and win every game including the Super Bowl as a rookie in the NFL who didn't even get into the starter's role until 3/4ths of the season had been played already. It doesn't happen. Looking at all that he was up against, he wasn't as bad as his 16 ppg is made out to be.

2. After the AFC South clinching win vs. Bengals on the road, the team as a whole looked like hammered dog crap. Lackluster vs. Indy (with help from the refs, btw). Lackluster vs. Carolina. Pulled starters vs. Titans and Yates wasn't even in that game past the second or 3rd possession of the 1st quarter, IIRC.

I can't grade Yates fairly just because he flopped in the Ravens playoff game. I think some people are so disappointed in the outcome of that game that they are soured on Yates. I haven't said anything to the degree of him being the next best thing and a sure-fire HOF'er. I have said that based on what we went through, and what we're up against with Schaub coming back from an injury that has historically not seen a successful comeback by other NFL players who had this severity of LisFranc injury, that Yates has the potential to use a full off-season, a full camp, and all of it as QB1 which means he gets reps. And reps are needed, with the 1's, to see what we got in Yates.

I don't think the Yates we saw in the loss to Balt is the real Yates. I think it was a bad day that he was going to have. Had he played like a monster vs. Ravens, and we had won, he might have had that bad day vs. Patriots in the AFC Championship game. You just never know. I happen to think it will benefit him MORE in the long run to have had that bad day THIS year so that he has motivation and clarity on what is expected and required to go all the way in 2012. Sometimes a setback like his is what a guy needs to make a leap. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Texan_Bill]

Changed the momentum of the game on the Ravens 1st possession of the game? Doubtful, but your point is semi-valid

I think it's extremely valid. With a rookie QB you need to play with a lead (because he will throw picks). JJ singlehandedly spotted the Ravens a 7-0 lead after the defense went out and did their job on the opening series.

 

[2012Champs]

Two HUGE factors going on with the 16 ppg stat.

1. Yates is obviously not Hall of Fame material right now. Duh. Let's keep it in proper perspective about where he was then, and where he can be in 2012. A lot of this can be washed away if Yates is given more time with the 1's as I state over and over. You can't just enter an NFL game and rattle off 27 ppg and win every game including the Super Bowl as a rookie in the NFL who didn't even get into the starter's role until 3/4ths of the season had been played already. It doesn't happen. Looking at all that he was up against, he wasn't as bad as his 16 ppg is made out to be.

I hope yates does get better but his 16 ppg were big reason for our losses with him starting

2. After the AFC South clinching win vs. Bengals on the road, the team as a whole looked like hammered dog crap. Lackluster vs. Indy (with help from the refs, btw). Lackluster vs. Carolina. Pulled starters vs. Titans and Yates wasn't even in that game past the second or 3rd possession of the 1st quarter, IIRC.

Lackluster is a pretty good adj for the given situation

I can't grade Yates fairly just because he flopped in the Ravens playoff game. I think some people are so disappointed in the outcome of that game that they are soured on Yates. I haven't said anything to the degree of him being the next best thing and a sure-fire HOF'er. I have said that based on what we went through, and what we're up against with Schaub coming back from an injury that has historically not seen a successful comeback by other NFL players who had this severity of LisFranc injury, that Yates has the potential to use a full off-season, a full camp, and all of it as QB1 which means he gets reps. And reps are needed, with the 1's, to see what we got in Yates.

I don't think the Yates we saw in the loss to Balt is the real Yates. I think it was a bad day that he was going to have. Had he played like a monster vs. Ravens, and we had won, he might have had that bad day vs. Patriots in the AFC Championship game. You just never know. I happen to think it will benefit him MORE in the long run to have had that bad day THIS year so that he has motivation and clarity on what is expected and required to go all the way in 2012. Sometimes a setback like his is what a guy needs to make a leap. That's all I'm saying.

Yates played very rookie like in more than just the ravens game and thats to be expected really because he was one after all.

 

[2012Champs]

I think it's extremely valid. With a rookie QB you need to play with a lead (because he will throw picks). JJ singlehandedly spotted the Ravens a 7-0 lead after the defense went out and did their job on the opening series.

The lead was not 7-0 and being down 4 points after 5 mins shoudnt stop you from winning. Our defense gave us every chance to win, Yates just couldnt pull it off

 

[HOU-TEX]

I think it's extremely valid. With a rookie QB you need to play with a lead (because he will throw picks). JJ singlehandedly spotted the Ravens a 7-0 lead after the defense went out and did their job on the opening series.

Don't get me wrong, it was a huge play in the game, no doubt.

My point is Schaub could've easily overcome the boneheaded play of JJ, especially the way our D was playing. Schaub has his token 'Jacoby' type play every now and then, but does anyone think he would've thrown that ball to AJ with 4 defenders? Or throw to Walter in double, almost triple coverage? Or throw deep to a double covered AJ on 1st down with 2 min to go? I don't

 

[Texan_Bill]

Don't get me wrong, it was a huge play in the game, no doubt.

My point is Schaub could've easily overcome the boneheaded play of JJ, especially the way our D was playing. Schaub has his token 'Jacoby' type play every now and then, but does anyone think he would've thrown that ball to AJ with 4 defenders? Or throw to Walter in double, almost triple coverage? Or throw deep to a double covered AJ on 1st down with 2 min to go? I don't

Oh, I gotcha!! No doubt. That mistake wouldn't have been nearly as detrimental with Schaub under center.

 

[HOU-TEX]

Oh, I gotcha!! No doubt. That mistake wouldn't have been nearly as detrimental with Schaub under center.

I probably wasn't very clear in what I was trying to say. My mind has been going every which way but loose lately.

 

[Texan_Bill]

I probably wasn't very clear in what I was trying to say. My mind has been going every which way but loose lately.

It gets worse, my friend. It gets worse.

 

[Double Barrel]

True or false?

The Texans would've beaten the Ravens with Schaub?

It's pure speculation, but my gut feeling is that we would have been in the AFC Championship game with Schaub. And seeing how the Patriots played, it's quite possible the Super Bowl.

 

[HOU-TEX]

It's pure speculation, but my gut feeling is that we would have been in the AFC Championship game with Schaub. And seeing how the Patriots played, it's quite possible the Super Bowl.

My thoughts exactly in a shorter and to the point post.

 

[thunderkyss]

It's pure speculation, but my gut feeling is that we would have been in the AFC Championship game with Schaub. And seeing how the Patriots played, it's quite possible the Super Bowl.

completely plausible.


So now, we go into another season hoping (praying for those that do) that Schaub can stay relatively healthy...... that our key (core) players stay relatively healthy.

However, if that doesn't happen, have you seen enough of Tj Yates to believe he will/will not finish what Schaub started if the opportunity repeats itself?

 

[Playoffs]

It's pure speculation, but my gut feeling is that we would have been in the AFC Championship game with Schaub. And seeing how the Patriots played, it's quite possible the Super Bowl.

Yup. Super Bowl, imo.

 

[Corrosion]

completely plausible.


So now, we go into another season hoping (praying for those that do) that Schaub can stay relatively healthy...... that our key (core) players stay relatively healthy.

However, if that doesn't happen, have you seen enough of Tj Yates to believe he will/will not finish what Schaub started if the opportunity repeats itself?

Thats a real good question ....

We have to consider that there was no training camp , OTA's or interaction otherwise between the coaches and players prior to ~two weeks before game one.

Given the above preperation time , one would expect a better performance from Yates.

Still , the learning curve for an NFL QB is steep .... I dont think Yates has come close to the peak of that curve. He's going to improve. Question is , how much and is it enough ?! At this juncture , I just dont know .... possible he could get the job doneif other things fell into place.

Post #21,000 (get a life)

 

[ObsiWan]

Schaub "organized" these workouts several weeks after Brees and Eli were getting national recognition for getting their teams together. Doesnt impress me.

Ummm... where's YOUR link that proves your timeline?? As I recall, Brees was the Saints rep to the negotiations so when did he have time to organize team workouts?

 

[welsh texan]

I think we may be wearing rose-tinted spectacles when we're thinking about how Schaub would have managed that Ravens game.

Schaub is undoubtedly the better QB (pre-lisfranc anyway), but don't forget that while Schaub likely wouldn't have thrown those INT's, he would quite likely have held on to the ball and our passing game may well have gone totally cold instead.

Thats what Schaub has shown me under pressure sometimes, so to say carte-blanche that Schaub would have won that game is a stretch.

 

[2012Champs]

I think we may be wearing rose-tinted spectacles when we're thinking about how Schaub would have managed that Ravens game.

Schaub is undoubtedly the better QB (pre-lisfranc anyway), but don't forget that while Schaub likely wouldn't have thrown those INT's, he would quite likely have held on to the ball and our passing game may well have gone totally cold instead.

Thats what Schaub has shown me under pressure sometimes, so to say carte-blanche that Schaub would have won that game is a stretch.

Schaub would have held on to the ball too long? Maybe that would cut down on the ints but Im certain Schaub was posting points a lot easier than Yates and its not like Yates did a lot better avoiding the sacks

 

[Rey]

Schaub would have held on to the ball too long? Maybe that would cut down on the ints but Im certain Schaub was posting points a lot easier than Yates and its not like Yates did a lot better avoiding the sacks

Yates was sacked 2 times in two play off games, and 0 of those was against the Ravens.

I'm not sold that Schaub alone gets it done for us either. I like our chances a lot better but I don't think it would have been a sure thing.

The first time we played Baltimore with Matt (granted, No Andre) we only put up 14 points.

 

[2012Champs]

Yates was sacked 2 times in two play off games, and 0 of those was against the Ravens.

I'm not sold that Schaub alone gets it done for us either. I like our chances a lot better but I don't think it would have been a sure thing.

this last season
Schaub was sacked 16 times in 10 games
Yates was sacked 17 times in 7.5 games

 

[GP]

However, if that doesn't happen, have you seen enough of Tj Yates to believe he will/will not finish what Schaub started if the opportunity repeats itself?

I know your question was aimed at DB, but I'll take a swing at it too.

It doesn't matter if we've seen enough of Yates, or not, to make a decision. That's what people are failing to understand. We have limited choices right now:

1. Sign a FA guy to compete in camp, to challenge Yates or be a replacement for Schaub if he can't return for a myriad of reasons.

2. Draft another QB, somewhere in some round of the draft, and have HIM compete with Yates and/or the FA QB we signed to compete with Schaub/Yates.

3. Name Yates the starter, by default, and roll with it through OTAs, camp, preseason, reg season opening games...biding time for Schaub to fully return and using Yates as a fallback option if Schaub can't return or stay on the field.

None of these scenarios involve Matt Schaub being the Day 1 QB1 when reg season begins because it's virtually impossible for him to have gained back all that he lost during post-op "rest period" AND be a QB1 right out of the gate by September. If he is, and if he remains and is frolicking around out on the field and winning games right and left all season long then he should be cloned because it means he's not a mortal man like Ty Law, Warrick Dunn, Glen Earl, Duce Staley, etc.

This means you got three options (listed above).

I think we'll add a camp arm or two or three, for sure. But I expect Kubiak to be loyal (as he always is) to the one he brought to the dance. He can't be loyal to Schaub, yet, due to circumstances, but he can be loyal to Yates. It's what has made the Texans the resilient team that they were in 2011--Because they all know that Kubiak has your back and he won't toss you to the trash can if you have a bad day or week or hell, even a bad season.

Nobody knows what we have in Yates, though the Ravens playoff game is being used by some as the ultimate proof of what we have in Yates. What makes 2012 so interesting, already, is that we DO get to see what Yates has or what Kubiak has planned if Yates isn't the QB1 after all.

If we sign all our guys back, with Foster being the chief weapon on offense we must re-sign, then whomever is QB is going to be the key decision for this team. Everything else runs like clockwork, but the QB decision will be paramount to the rest of the offense being able to function as its designed by Kubiak and Dennison.

I am not a Yates homer, but I think Kubiak rolls with him right out of the gate and adds camp arms to supplement Yates as insurance against Yates cratering early on or getting hurt. Leinart should not be on this roster, btw. I know you disagree, but the guy is hot garbage and it's time to cut him loose. The Jax game was all the proof I need to make that analysis, and Yates came in like a fireball and led the team VERTICALLY down the field before Kubiak handcuffed him (for good reason).

 

[Rey]

this last season
Schaub was sacked 16 times in 10 games
Yates was sacked 17 times in 7.5 games

I was responding about the Baltimore game (which is where this conversation originated) and our match up with them. Schaub took 4 sacks against them earlier in the year and Yates took 0 against them in the play-offs.

 

[Rey]

However, if that doesn't happen, have you seen enough of Tj Yates to believe he will/will not finish what Schaub started if the opportunity repeats itself?

I think Yates will develop into a solid starter...

If you look at Yates and Schaub's rookie years in comparison I think Yates had the better year. I don't remember what the Falcons situation was at that time, but Schaub wasn't all that...

As a rookie I thought Yates did a decent job. I expect him to get better in the years up coming...

They say the biggest jump for most players is year 1 to year 2, so it will be interesting to see Yates perform in the pre-season. IMO, we have two guys capable of starting and winning games.

 

[2012Champs]

I was responding about the Baltimore game (which is where this conversation originated) and our match up with them. Schaub took 4 sacks against them earlier in the year and Yates took 0 against them in the play-offs.

Well if you look at the post I had quoted it talks about Schaub's ability under pressure not just a single game.

 

[GP]

I just have a gut feeling that Gary Kubiak feels he can start Yates as Texans QB, improve the offense in this year's draft, re-sign our key guys on offense that need to be re-signed, and therefore Kubiak feels he will have as good a shot as anybody else of stacking up against opposing defenses in 2012. It's the sum of the whole, not JUST the QB position that this offense relies upon.

I genuinely think it's what he'll do, what his approach will be in terms of QB. He's going to think if he can get decent production from Yates...the rest will take care of itself.

Look, the first year or two Schaub was here...Schaub was making some bad choices and Kubiak was patient with him and probably focused on helping his QB understand how NOT to kill scoring opportunities so easily. He can do this with Yates, too, IMO. I was THE leading critic on here several years ago talking about how bad Schaub is and how he has no future and has nowhere to go but down, and all Kubiak did was stick with Schaub and create a really nice set of stats that proved me wrong every season since then. I think I've reached a point of trusting that Gary Kubiak will handle the QB position just fine...of course, the Matt Leinart scenario scares the hell outta' me in terms of knocking holes in my theory.

Even in recent seasons, Schaub has been known to brain fart a throw or two and it costs us...but then again, most of those games we still found a way to win. Kubiak of all people should know that a QB is never going to be flawless, and I think he has more patience for that position than any of us do. That's why I think he's thrilled with Yates thus far; he's going to get a chance to shape another QB like he did with Schaub. That's what a guy like GK lives for, actually: The selection, the shaping, and the end product of his starting QB.

We'll be OK at QB, it's the other FA signings we need to handle that is worrying me to death.

 

[Trail.Blazr]

This thread has surely gone off topic, but to chime in with a different viewpoint, I want to come to the defense of Schaub, and possibly tie it back to the Peyton topic...

I think most anyone would agree that Matt can improve in areas. He'd probably be at the front of the line of people to suggest so, which is testament to his leadership style. This guy is light years ahead of when #8 had a four letter word above it. He's easily a better QB than alot of past SB winners. In fact, I'd go so far as to put him in the Troy Aikman class, which seemed to work for many a Cowboy SB rings. My point is, pre-week 10 version of Schaub wouldn't warrant a change at QB for a couple of years, given his salary and the cost of improving the position comes with having to ignore other pressing needs on the roster. For that very reason, Peyton coming to Houston could be as detrimental to the team's ability to field a well rounded roster as it did the Colts. Why do you think the colts fell off the wagon? Too much invested in Petyon financially and when he wasn't on the field, they fell victim to that. Pity for Indy fans. It was a worthy risk, but in the end it cost them. But with a ring to show for it, my sympathy only goes so far.

Back on point... to feel angst about the how likely 2012 Schaub may or may not be able to play as effectively as before, is warranted. We do have potential for a QB issue. But for the very reasons that is a concern with Schaub it certainly wouldn't allow for a pass to be given to Peyton. The best possible scenario I can imagine is that Schaub is healthy enough to take the field come training camp and TJ's tutelage continues knowing he had a good healthy taste of the NFL to build upon his continued learning and growth.

The only way I'd be happy with the notion of Peyton coming in, would be if it's determined that Matt can't play prior to pre-season. And then 2 things are a must... Peyton would obviously have to prove he's got his velocity back. and he'd have to be willing to play for Schaub money + incentives of games played or something like that. No way you break the financial chemistry of the team to bring in the enemy.

But all this talk about Schaub not being a leader and questioning his play over the past couple of years to suggest he can't get us there shows a lack of loyalty to someone who was one of the key reasons the offense catapulted from obscurity to relevance. Even then, it was shadowed by poor defense or fluke injuries, yet I have NEVER heard him complain one time. Like a true leader, he often absorbs/shoulders the blame for the team and continually strives for improvement. Hall of Famer? Absolutely not... but I try not to paint him irrelevant. I'm pretty confident he embodies the kind of leader that McNair wants. So if Matt is able to go, we'll see #8 under center for another season... FACT

 

[thunderkyss]

I know your question was aimed at DB, but I'll take a swing at it too.

The question is for anyone who cares to respond. Thank you for adding your thoughts.

It doesn't matter if we've seen enough of Yates, or not, to make a decision. That's what people are failing to understand.

I beg to differ. How we answer this question, "Is Tj the heir apparent" will decide how we navigate our "limited choices"

We have limited choices right now:

1. Sign a FA guy to compete in camp

2. Draft another QB

3. Name Yates the starter​

Well, as unpopular as it may be, don't forget we have Leinart under contract. I know most don't appreciate "check down" Matt, but I guarantee you he "graded" highly for Coach Kubiak. He protected the ball, moved the chains & put points on the board.

Other than being left handed, there aren't many differences between Leinart & Schaub. I actually prefer Leinart because he does not & has not ever worn the number 8 (which is a QB number I just can't get past - I've tried).

Anyway... going by the bird in the hand rule, if Schaub isn't 100% by OTAs, Leinart & Yates compete for the job.

None of these scenarios involve Matt Schaub being the Day 1 QB1 when reg season begins because it's virtually impossible for him to have gained back all that he lost during post-op "rest period" AND be a QB1 right out of the gate by September.

I think we'll just let this play out. If he can play, he can play.

I think we'll add a camp arm or two or three, for sure.

I bet we at least bring a QB in for the practice squad, someone to run the scout team.

Leinart should not be on this roster, btw. I know you disagree, but the guy is hot garbage and it's time to cut him loose. The Jax game was all the proof I need to make that analysis, and Yates came in like a fireball and led the team VERTICALLY down the field before Kubiak handcuffed him (for good reason).

I hear ya..... just don't see it the same way. Yates got thrown in under a certain situation, we don't know how Leinart would have treated that 4 minute drill.

We do know how Yates handled a full game. We Avg'd 16 points with Yates pulling the trigger. We scored 17 with Leinart for less than a half.

Leinart looked a lot more like Schaub. Picking & choosing when to take risks, & hitting home runs when it mattered. We weren't throwing the ball 50 times.... or even 30 times when we put 41 points on Tennessee, or 30 vs Cleveland, or 37 vs Tampa Bay.

It's about efficiency, taking care of the ball, making good decisions.

 

[ckhouston]

someone who was one of the key reasons the offense catapulted from obscurity to relevance.

I would place more of that recognition on a much improved offensive line, and running game. Over the three years people keep bringing up that Schaubs "stats" were so glorious, you can break down key plays in losses and put those squarely on his shoulders. If not for Matt, we are a playoff team a couple of years earlier.

 

[ckhouston]

I just have a gut feeling that Gary Kubiak feels he can start Yates as Texans QB, improve the offense in this year's draft, re-sign our key guys on offense that need to be re-signed, and therefore Kubiak feels he will have as good a shot as anybody else of stacking up against opposing defenses in 2012. It's the sum of the whole, not JUST the QB position that this offense relies upon.

I genuinely think it's what he'll do, what his approach will be in terms of QB. He's going to think if he can get decent production from Yates...the rest will take care of itself.

Look, the first year or two Schaub was here...Schaub was making some bad choices and Kubiak was patient with him and probably focused on helping his QB understand how NOT to kill scoring opportunities so easily. He can do this with Yates, too, IMO. I was THE leading critic on here several years ago talking about how bad Schaub is and how he has no future and has nowhere to go but down, and all Kubiak did was stick with Schaub and create a really nice set of stats that proved me wrong every season since then. I think I've reached a point of trusting that Gary Kubiak will handle the QB position just fine...of course, the Matt Leinart scenario scares the hell outta' me in terms of knocking holes in my theory.

Even in recent seasons, Schaub has been known to brain fart a throw or two and it costs us...but then again, most of those games we still found a way to win. Kubiak of all people should know that a QB is never going to be flawless, and I think he has more patience for that position than any of us do. That's why I think he's thrilled with Yates thus far; he's going to get a chance to shape another QB like he did with Schaub. That's what a guy like GK lives for, actually: The selection, the shaping, and the end product of his starting QB.

We'll be OK at QB, it's the other FA signings we need to handle that is worrying me to death.

I tend to agree. I think Matt and possibly Smith will be cap casualties. Would hate to see it, but OD and Ryans could end up there too. Most important thing imho is getting the key producers signed (O-line, RB, Defense) and fill in around them the best you can with what is left. You can blame the Ravens loss on JJ, Yates, or play calling, but I believe if we keep running it down their throat and sub in fresh Tate for Foster and vice versa, I do not see us losing to them ... or the Pats. Giants defense would have given us a run for our money.

 

[Scooter]

I just have a gut feeling that Gary Kubiak feels he can start Yates as Texans QB, improve the offense in this year's draft, re-sign our key guys on offense that need to be re-signed, and therefore Kubiak feels he will have as good a shot as anybody else of stacking up against opposing defenses in 2012. It's the sum of the whole, not JUST the QB position that this offense relies upon.

I genuinely think it's what he'll do, what his approach will be in terms of QB. He's going to think if he can get decent production from Yates...the rest will take care of itself.

Look, the first year or two Schaub was here...Schaub was making some bad choices and Kubiak was patient with him and probably focused on helping his QB understand how NOT to kill scoring opportunities so easily. He can do this with Yates, too, IMO. I was THE leading critic on here several years ago talking about how bad Schaub is and how he has no future and has nowhere to go but down, and all Kubiak did was stick with Schaub and create a really nice set of stats that proved me wrong every season since then. I think I've reached a point of trusting that Gary Kubiak will handle the QB position just fine...of course, the Matt Leinart scenario scares the hell outta' me in terms of knocking holes in my theory.

Even in recent seasons, Schaub has been known to brain fart a throw or two and it costs us...but then again, most of those games we still found a way to win. Kubiak of all people should know that a QB is never going to be flawless, and I think he has more patience for that position than any of us do. That's why I think he's thrilled with Yates thus far; he's going to get a chance to shape another QB like he did with Schaub. That's what a guy like GK lives for, actually: The selection, the shaping, and the end product of his starting QB.

We'll be OK at QB, it's the other FA signings we need to handle that is worrying me to death.

i think yates has all of the tools as well as having "IT". i dont think he's ready and dont at all get the impression kubiak does either.

kubiak wants his quarterbacks to work blind. A, B, C, Dump with eyes closed. we run the same routes in exceptionally creative ways all game - but most are insanely simple reads for the quarterback in terms of vertical or split progressions. we traded two second round picks for a slow motion weak arm because he could do these things. unlike the projects we take on (orlovsky, leinart, and a few college spread offense studs) with the hopes of finding that mental acuity within a physical package, schaub was already there despite his warts. schaub makes his fair share of brain farts, but they're within the system and favor throws kubiak is ok with. yates isnt in that zip code yet.

we've got game tape on yates, and it's going to take him more time than this offseason to run a blindfolded offense. i can tell you that kubiak's not happy about having to design routes to free up one receiver for yates because he was unable to see #2. that's not an offseason fix. the poise and trust in the system showed a lot, but his play in kubiak's "denny's menu" wont have him higher than #2 going into next season - if that.

 

[Trail.Blazr]

I would place more of that recognition on a much improved offensive line, and running game.

In the last two years yes, I'll lean more toward the line and run game, but prior, he was just as instrumental as anyone. And his first few years as a Texan is the timeframe of obscurity to relevance I speak to. We went from HWNWNBM's 1:1 TD/INT ratio along with 40-50-70 sacks/yr to seeing much improved results virtually overnight, while we still had MAJOR line issues. Again, I'm not putting him in the HOF, just keeping him relevant in terms to this teams success on the offensive side of the ball since 2007.

Over the three years people keep bringing up that Schaubs "stats" were so glorious, you can break down key plays in losses and put those squarely on his shoulders.

That's football. Now, up until last year, when Houston hasn't been closer to the cellar, they have always been in the bottom half of the league in terms of points allowed per game. So when you read into key plays, chances are it's while the offense is scratching and clawing their way back to overcome a deficit. Losses will happen. Despite that, again, Matt would shoulder that and put it "squarely on his shoulders".

If not for Matt, we are a playoff team a couple of years earlier.

If not for Matt. true. If not for Kube's poor game decisions. If not for Kris Brown. If not for Sage. If not for KJax. If not for ... that list can go on and more than likely all would be true in their own way. Bottom line... Until we had a Defense that was ranked in the top half of the league in respect to points per game, we never made the playoffs... coincidence?

If I go back to the Cowboy's last glory years, it's the same story. Under Aikman, starting in 89, it wasn't until 91 until their D wasn't at the bottom of ppg till they made the playoffs. And 92, when their D hit the top 5 in that category they went to the Super Bowl. And at NO time during that run, did Aikman ever have a year as good, statistically, as any of Schaub's.

As already stated twice, I'm not putting Schaub in HOF class. Heck I'm not even one to try to "glorify" his stats. He's definitely upgradable/replaceable. But at a price that's hard to justify miss-directing $$$ better spent elsewhere on the team. And to spend that money on a Healthy Peyton would be tempting, but the way this offense works, Peyton has just as much risk/reward factor as a Healthy Schaub over the course of the season. I personally would take my chances with Matt, and spend my cap $$$ wisely, knowing Matt has the tools to get it done.

 

[ckhouston]

And to spend that money on a Healthy Peyton would be tempting, but the way this offense works, Peyton has just as much risk/reward factor as a Healthy Schaub over the course of the season

Actually if reports are true, there would be zero risk with Peyton. He wants no money guaranteed. Bring him in for nothing, if he blows you away in camp you start him and pay him based upon agreed incentives, if he doesn't you cut him. The injury he sustained is no longer a structural concern based on reports, just whether or not the nerve will heal to the extent to allow him to throw accurately and with velocity.

 

[ChampionTexan]

Actually if reports are true, there would be zero risk with Peyton. He wants no money guaranteed. Bring him in for nothing, if he blows you away in camp you start him and pay him based upon agreed incentives, if he doesn't you cut him. The injury he sustained is no longer a structural concern based on reports, just whether or not the nerve will heal to the extent to allow him to throw accurately and with velocity.

I don't believe he said he "wants" no guaranteed money, he said he'd be open to it, and that's not the same thing. All it takes is one team to decide to throw some real money at him (and I believe if/when he becomes available, there will be more than one team that falls into that category), and poof - you have risk.

 

[thunderkyss]

Actually if reports are true, there would be zero risk with Peyton. He wants no money guaranteed. Bring him in for nothing...

Regardless what he said, that's not the way it works. That statement only puts teams & GMs on notice, that he's not looking for a "big payday" & that he wants to play.

So starts the bidding war. If we're going to offer him a contract say $38 guaranteed, Washington can trump it with $45 guaranteed. & while we Texans' fans see a world of difference between the two teams because we made it to the play-offs & they didn't, it wouldn't take much of a GM to sell Peyton on the idea that he & Wayne (who they can guarantee to go after) can make the 'skins a play-off contender.

Then Tampa Bay or Miami can give him the same line & offer $55M & $60M...

So now Peyton is looking at playing for the Texans @ $38M or Miami @ $60M.....

It may not be about the money for Peyton, but GMs are going to be throwing it at him if he can prove he is healthy.

 

[2012Champs]

Regardless what he said, that's not the way it works. That statement only puts teams & GMs on notice, that he's not looking for a "big payday" & that he wants to play.

So starts the bidding war. If we're going to offer him a contract say $38 guaranteed, Washington can trump it with $45 guaranteed. & while we Texans' fans see a world of difference between the two teams because we made it to the play-offs & they didn't, it wouldn't take much of a GM to sell Peyton on the idea that he & Wayne (who they can guarantee to go after) can make the 'skins a play-off contender.

Then Tampa Bay or Miami can give him the same line & offer $55M & $60M...

So now Peyton is looking at playing for the Texans @ $38M or Miami @ $60M.....

It may not be about the money for Peyton, but GMs are going to be throwing it at him if he can prove he is healthy.

Im not sure he will see guaranteed money anywhere in the area you are throwing around

 

[GP]

i think yates has all of the tools as well as having "IT". i dont think he's ready and dont at all get the impression kubiak does either.

kubiak wants his quarterbacks to work blind. A, B, C, Dump with eyes closed. we run the same routes in exceptionally creative ways all game - but most are insanely simple reads for the quarterback in terms of vertical or split progressions. we traded two second round picks for a slow motion weak arm because he could do these things. unlike the projects we take on (orlovsky, leinart, and a few college spread offense studs) with the hopes of finding that mental acuity within a physical package, schaub was already there despite his warts. schaub makes his fair share of brain farts, but they're within the system and favor throws kubiak is ok with. yates isnt in that zip code yet.

we've got game tape on yates, and it's going to take him more time than this offseason to run a blindfolded offense. i can tell you that kubiak's not happy about having to design routes to free up one receiver for yates because he was unable to see #2. that's not an offseason fix. the poise and trust in the system showed a lot, but his play in kubiak's "denny's menu" wont have him higher than #2 going into next season - if that.

I don't think he's ready either, and Kubiak probably feels that way to.

But being ready is not a luxury we have right now. He will have to GET ready in OTAs, camp, preseason, etc., which is something Yates did not have the opportunity to do in 2011.

It feels like I'm a broken record here, but I'll say it again:

1. TJ Yates did not have an off-season to prepare as a Texans QB.

2. He did not have OTAs here.

3. He did not have a camp here, or at least not one that really mattered much since he was QB3 (and a a rookie, too) and was running scout team while Schaub and Leinart ran with the 1's and 2's respectively.

4.He didn't have any regular season reps with the 1's and was thrown into the Jax game out of nowhere.

Considering all that he was up against, he did as much as a guy in that position could be expected to do.

Now think about what could happen if he gets to have a full off-season, full OTAs, full camp, and preseason games as QB1. That's like 100 years of experience compared to what he got in 2011. It's possible that he could take the hard knocks from 2011, including the bad playoff game in Baltimore, bundle it up with the wealth of preparation he's going to gain from off-season, OTAs, camp, and preseason, and grow leaps and bounds with it.

Don't know if he will, but I think people are underestimating the possibility of him flying really low under the radar just like the rest of the Texans did the year prior.

Considering the odds Schaub is up against, TJ Yates is pretty much our Luke Skywalker right now. Raw, young, and has a lot of Jedi training to undergo. But you can sense the force is strong in him. LOL.

 

[ckhouston]

Im not sure he will see guaranteed money anywhere in the area you are throwing around

Not even close.

He will sign a league minimum deal with crazy incentives.

He will choose the team with the best chance to win.

This guy wont go out like Namath and Montana, he is a winner and will not play for a loser for more money.

 

[Trail.Blazr]

Im not sure he will see guaranteed money anywhere in the area you are throwing around

From the Texans... I would be inclined to agree.

I suppose, only key people in Peyton's camp would be sure.

But to speculate a bit... What is the going rate for a probable 1st ballot HOF'r who puts more of a priority on playing out his final season(s) than making blockbuster money?

I don't think there is any question that teams can be found who'd be willing to break the bank to have a healthy Manning under center. His health may have been in question over the past year or two, but certainly not his talent level. Healthy, he's still among the best in the league, hands down.

I can see where he may have little need for guaranteed money, but he simply won't play for nothing. He's too smart for that. He'll likely play for what he feels he can command from whatever situation he feels is best.

 

[ckhouston]

From the Texans... I would be inclined to agree.

I suppose, only key people in Peyton's camp would be sure.

But to speculate a bit... What is the going rate for a probable 1st ballot HOF'r who puts more of a priority on playing out his final season(s) than making blockbuster money?

I don't think there is any question that teams can be found who'd be willing to break the bank to have a healthy Manning under center. His health may have been in question over the past year or two, but certainly not his talent level. Healthy, he's still among the best in the league, hands down.

I can see where he may have little need for guaranteed money, but he simply won't play for nothing. He's too smart for that. He'll likely play for what he feels he can command from whatever situation he feels is best.

He will only play for a contender. Who else is a QB away from a ring? Us and the Jets, maybe the 49'ers? So it will then come to who is in a position to offer him the best three year deal, year one based on incentives, and first and foremost who he wants to play with and for. I think having AJ and the TE core would be very attractive to him, plus he wouldn't have all the pressure on him because our ground game is our nucleus. All players have expressed that playing for Kubes is great. I think in this case, money will be the least important factor.

 

[Trail.Blazr]

He will only play for a contender. Who else is a QB away from a ring? Us and the Jets, maybe the 49'ers? So it will then come to who is in a position to offer him the best three year deal, year one based on incentives, and first and foremost who he wants to play with and for. I think having AJ and the TE core would be very attractive to him, plus he wouldn't have all the pressure on him because our ground game is our nucleus. All players have expressed that playing for Kubes is great. I think in this case, money will be the least important factor.

Arguably the Skins, the Dolphins, the Bears, Vikes, Broncos, Raiders and Cards. Some seemingly more stacked than the other, but certainly not out of the realm of possibility. 2011 Colts minus Manning shows the extreme drop, which inversely you could expect similar jump for any team in need of a QB to be able to make with him under center. I think I know what you are saying, but there are no absolutes in what is certainly an uncertain future for him.

If/when there is a choice to be made by Houston and Schaub looks doubtful to start the season, if healthy, I'd be happy as a clam to see Peyton in Texans uni. And in that case, I hope you are right, that money is least important. What a pleasant change that would be in the NFL we know today.

 

[thunderkyss]

He will only play for a contender. Who else is a QB away from a ring? Us and the Jets, maybe the 49'ers? So it will then come to who is in a position to offer him the best three year deal, year one based on incentives, and first and foremost who he wants to play with and for. I think having AJ and the TE core would be very attractive to him, plus he wouldn't have all the pressure on him because our ground game is our nucleus. All players have expressed that playing for Kubes is great. I think in this case, money will be the least important factor.

Seriously doubt it. If he's got a list of three teams, guaranteed money will become part of the conversation.

Team 1, "I'll offer you a league minimum salary, but you can earn $799M if you can throw for 18 TDs & a play-off appearance."

Team 2, "I'll offer you a league minimum salary, but you can earn $800M if you can throw for 3500 yards & get us into the play-offs.

Team 3, "I'll offer you $36M guaranteed over 3 years."

I'm going with team 3

 

[drs23]

Seriously doubt it. If he's got a list of three teams, guaranteed money will become part of the conversation.

Team 1, "I'll offer you a league minimum salary, but you can earn $799M if you can throw for 18 TDs & a play-off appearance."

Team 2, "I'll offer you a league minimum salary, but you can earn $800M if you can throw for 3500 yards & get us into the play-offs.

Team 3, "I'll offer you $36M guaranteed over 3 years."

I'm going with team 3

But TK, that's you, not the Forehead. He's got more money now than he, his wife and kid's kid's can spend. It's all about the ring.

He'll go for the ring, not the green.

Personally I don't see the nerve regeneration happening if it hasn't by now. Just from personal experience, though I've never been a top-flite athlete. (unless 12 oz. curls count)

I'm thinking we'll see Peyton either on the sidelines coaching or bumping someone behind the desk on Sunday morning.

Guess we'll all hafta hide-n-watch.

 

[Texan_Bill]

But TK, that's you, not the Forehead. He's got more money now than he, his wife and kid's kid's can spend. It's all about the ring.

You forgot one element before. What if one of his grandkids has a child with Allen Iverson??

Lesson? There is never enough money!