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A Trade that makes Sense
- Thread starter Texian
- Start date
W
whiskeyrbl
Guest
The only thing wrong here is in a few mocks on othr websites , some experts say that the Jets would take VY NO would take Lienart,and Tenn would take D'Brick, now if that was the case would you take Bush #4 ?
Tex-fan0604
Practice Squad
bigTEXan8 said:
Thats a good point I actually think that would benefit us better than drafting BUsh or VY.Getting two players that can help you team get better right away is better than just one.
cadahnic
Rookie
It is because he is the best LT in the draft, last year there was a small pocket of individuals that wanted Alex Barron. D'Brick is the best LT in the draft and he may also be able to play LG, but he is not the most complete Tackle in the draft that honor goes to Eric Winston. My basis for the ranking is speed, strength, toughness, nasty streak, FIQ, and ability to play multiple positions.
MorKnolle
All Pro
kbourda said:
He is the best LT prospect in the draft and OLine is definitely a need of ours, but I'd still prefer the more versatile Eric Winston which we could probably get in the 2nd round at #33.
As for the trade, I don't think that is quite fair value according to the charts, I think we should get the #4, their 2nd this year, and 2nd next year in addition to Abraham, although if you decide that trading down is your top choice and you'd rather do that and get whatever you can out of it then your proposed trade would be fine. I don't know exactly how much the Jets would give up, but I think somewhere at least in between what I had and what you posted would work.
If we did make that trade, I'm quite sure that the Jets would take Bush. Curtis Martin is getting old, there is still some confidence in New York that Pennington is their guy, and it sounded like the Jets would be quite excited about getting Reggie, and Reggie had earlier mentioned that he'd like NY. That would leave us D'Brick or Mario Williams at #4, while Abraham solidifies one DE, I would probably prefer to take Mario at #4 to have two great DEs anchoring our DLine, then take Eric Winston at #33 to help our OLine, and if it looks like he'll be gone by #33 we can trade that and one other later pick (after trading with the Jets, we should have either another 2nd or 3rd rounder to offer) to move up a bit and grab him.
If the Jets do take Vince or Leinart, then the Saints would take the other QB, the Titans would take D'Brick, and we could grab Reggie at #4, pay him less money than we would have at #1, and we have additional draft pick(s) out of it.
BuffSoldier
Veteran
cadahnic said:
Right now. But I think in a year or two, under an NFL training regiment and coaching, it wont even be close.
That is why I personally like Ferguson/Lawson better than Williams/Winston. Feguson is faster, quicker and more athletic than any LT to enter the NFL draft in recent history. He can be taught better run blocking technique... he can get stronger , but Winston will never learn athleticism. When Brick gets stronger and learns to run block better he will be in another class of LT as Winston.
W
whiskeyrbl
Guest
MORK if that scenario happens we have #4 And D,Brick and Bush are gone,I agree Take Mario,now at #33 if Winston is gone what about Colledge,and if we got a nother @nd from NY use it to take Blue S,and use #65 On Joseph CB,#66 on Mangold C.
kbourda:
I don't get it either. He's quick, has good technique to the outside, but gets beat sometimes when his guy moves back inside, usually when his guy makes a power move to the inside. He is not a huge guy, but he does have long arms. That said, he can get into you on the pass rush but it is common knowledge that he isn't a dominant run blocker, and can occasionally be Bull-rushed by the larger DE's in College, not to mention the NFL. If I draft a top five lineman he better have the whole packege, no questions asked, or forget it.
Personally, I like the kid from Miami better, provided he's healthy. He's a beast and will never get pushed around. He can run block with the best. He is definately not as quick as D'brick but then again he's 6'8" and you have to run farther to get around him.
That said, our Tackles aren't our major problem. Our biggest problem is our pocket collapsing from the inside, not from the outside. McKinney can't hold back a 10 year old girl. He gets absolutely abused by the larger defensive tackles in the league. Fix his spot and make sure Wade doesn't get isolated against above average pass rushers and you would have a substantial line improvement with minimal personall changes. That is what you want because there definately is something to be said about cohesion. If we do draft a LT, I would move Pitts to RT, or let the rookie play RT, but then we would still have the problem of having no pocket for our QB to step-up into so that he can, well, step into his throws properly, off his front foot, instead of having to sling it with his body going every which way.
This is why I advocate getting skill help in the first round. There will be some nasty Guards available in the second and third because this is a banner year for tackles. Also, this is a good year for TE's and we should be able to get a credible threat in the second or third.
I'm telling you, with those changes, in addition to an actual NFL scheme our entire offensive dynamic can be vastly improved *this year*. We can be good on offense right away with just those simple changes. Defense is a different story...
I don't get it either. He's quick, has good technique to the outside, but gets beat sometimes when his guy moves back inside, usually when his guy makes a power move to the inside. He is not a huge guy, but he does have long arms. That said, he can get into you on the pass rush but it is common knowledge that he isn't a dominant run blocker, and can occasionally be Bull-rushed by the larger DE's in College, not to mention the NFL. If I draft a top five lineman he better have the whole packege, no questions asked, or forget it.
Personally, I like the kid from Miami better, provided he's healthy. He's a beast and will never get pushed around. He can run block with the best. He is definately not as quick as D'brick but then again he's 6'8" and you have to run farther to get around him.
That said, our Tackles aren't our major problem. Our biggest problem is our pocket collapsing from the inside, not from the outside. McKinney can't hold back a 10 year old girl. He gets absolutely abused by the larger defensive tackles in the league. Fix his spot and make sure Wade doesn't get isolated against above average pass rushers and you would have a substantial line improvement with minimal personall changes. That is what you want because there definately is something to be said about cohesion. If we do draft a LT, I would move Pitts to RT, or let the rookie play RT, but then we would still have the problem of having no pocket for our QB to step-up into so that he can, well, step into his throws properly, off his front foot, instead of having to sling it with his body going every which way.
This is why I advocate getting skill help in the first round. There will be some nasty Guards available in the second and third because this is a banner year for tackles. Also, this is a good year for TE's and we should be able to get a credible threat in the second or third.
I'm telling you, with those changes, in addition to an actual NFL scheme our entire offensive dynamic can be vastly improved *this year*. We can be good on offense right away with just those simple changes. Defense is a different story...
cadahnic
Rookie
BuffSoldier said:Right now. But I think in a year or two, under an NFL training regiment and coaching, it wont even be close.
That is why I personally like Ferguson/Lawson better than Williams/Winston. Feguson is faster, quicker and more athletic than any LT to enter the NFL draft in recent history. He can be taught better run blocking technique... he can get stronger , but Winston will never learn athleticism. When Brick gets stronger and learns to run block better he will be in another class of LT as Winston.
Do you think Ferguson is a better LT prospect than Gallery coming out. Gallery was the full package and he would be the LT if Sims wasnt so solid. I understand your point and think it would be great if it ended up that way. I just think the talent difference between Williams and Lawson is pretty large and the talent difference between Ferguson and Winston(who was the best prospect before the injury) is much smaller. I also have a tendency to want the better on defense than on offense. Also, to Bradk10 yeah i watched Winston this year and other than his game against FS he was solid. He gave up less sacks than Ferguson and won the ACC Top Lineman award over him. That is a pretty impressive feat because the ACC has some linemen.
kbourda
Veteran
BradK10 said:
See, that was about to be my second point I was about to make. Because I saw what you saw. He had an up and down year this past year plus he had injuries. So i'm starting to believe most people are actually going off of what is being read and said rather than just seeing for yourself. Don't get me wrong D'Brick is good but I think you can get McNeil from Auburn just the same.
cadahnic
Rookie
KBourda I am going of actual game film of the top OTs. Not the tv film but full span game film. D'Brick was knicked up this year, mainly due to his size and the amount of power rushers he saw during the year. McNeil is a RT and that would not upset me if you are confident in Pitts at LT, I am not but I like him at RT, but I think him and Winston would be interchangeable with Winston being the more athletic of the two. I am not sure what you saw when you watched the game film, but I would be interested to know.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
I'll take both, but I like Winston. He is mean, he is versatile, he is one year off the injury and will gain more quickness and confidence with each passing day. He also at this point seems to be the best value depending on what mock you look at.
Who fits better in a zone blocking scheme?
Who fits better in a zone blocking scheme?
MorKnolle
All Pro
Kaiser Toro said:
As an OT, zone blocking doesn't make a whole lot of difference as long as your are reasonably athletic, but Fergusons' run blocking is a decent bit worse than Winston, and I have to assume Kubiak is going to build his offense and passing game off of the run and play action, so Winston would be a much better fit in run blocking.
Texans Horror
All Pro
I think Winston has more to offer. His knee injury is what really did him in. For that reason, IMO, he will be one of the last of the high-end tackles to go this year. I don't think he'll be a first-rounder. There is too much at stake for a tackle with a knee problem.
However, the Texans would make a good move if they took him in the second or third round. It's a good move because I don't see Eric Winston as being on the line all that much during year one. Maybe he just plays field goal unit. I want that knee to have more time to heal, and give him time to learn the offense. Next year, when Wade's cap impact is less, you cut him and insert your new RT.
However, the Texans would make a good move if they took him in the second or third round. It's a good move because I don't see Eric Winston as being on the line all that much during year one. Maybe he just plays field goal unit. I want that knee to have more time to heal, and give him time to learn the offense. Next year, when Wade's cap impact is less, you cut him and insert your new RT.
kbourda
Veteran
cadahnic said:
I'm not saying that D'Brick isn't good. I just watch a ton of football, period. If talent in the ACC (which is a tough conference) is causing you to get knicked up, wait til you get to the NFL. I'm not completely sold on Pitts but he is better at LT than he is at LG. And another this is how can we make assumptions on how this guy or that guy will perform with the whole coaching staff from last year fired. We really don't know what we have. It's just a wait and see. lt makes me wonder why some are of the opinion that coaching can improve Carr's performance but nothing else about the team. That's all.
Texian
Hall of Fame
The difference in #1 (3000) and #4 (1800) is 1200 points. Abraham was the 13th pick in the 2000 draft, value of 1050. If you include a 3rd RD pick from the Jets, value of 230 you will be close to fair value.MorKnolle said:
This is similar to the trade between the Falcons #5 and the Chargers #1 when they switched positions in the 2001 draft.
1. Michael Vick, QB Virginia Tech (1) (from SD)
1. (5) Traded choice, WR Tim Dwight, third round choice and second round choice in 2002 to San Diego for first round pick
The difference in value is Abraham was selected in the 1st RD the 13th pick and Dwight selected in the 4th RD the 114th pick.
TreWardTxn
Waterboy
Texian said:
I wouldn't mind getting Abraham, but I don't like trading for him after he has been franchised, that would demand the Texans be responsible for getting him resigned just a year later. A sign-and-trade deal is the only way to consider any dealing with NYJ
However, I honestly believe if Bush or Young pans out to be the talent that all the "experts" believe they will be, the franchise has to use that number one pick to get one of them and build the team around them through subsequent drafting and FA. There will be other good OLs and DEs, these guys are supposedly generational talents...
MorKnolle
All Pro
Texian said:
You don't necessarily go by what pick he was drafted at, I would look more at what value he currently has. I think he could possibly go to the Chiefs for the #20 or the Broncos at #22, so that is the most value I'd give him since that is about the maximum I think they could get out of him on their own, plus since he's a free agent and they are going to be way over the cap, the likelihood is that they won't be able to resign him anyway, so that will drop his value some and at least if he is involved in a trade like this they are getting some return value on his departure (they could franchise him and trade him so it won't cost anything against their cap, otherwise he's likely gone in free agency since they probably can't afford to keep him).
MorKnolle
All Pro
TreWardTxn said:
The idea of franchising a player then trading him would be that the recipient team resigns him to a long term deal as soon as he gets there so they would not have to pay him the franchise tag amount that first year, and by franchising him the team giving him up is not paying him any signing bonus so nothing will go against their cap for trading him. The Jets aren't going to sign him to a long-term deal with a signing bonus and then trade him to have that dead cap space, and he's not going to sign a long-term deal with no guaranteed money. Either way if he is signed to a long deal before he is traded, then he will still get just as much money as if we signed him to a new deal right after he gets here, only after the trade we are negotiating how much we are wanting to pay him rather than having an opposing team negotiate the amount of money that we will pay him.
S
SESupergenius
Guest
I am of the opinion that Carr can improve his performance because of coaching due to the fact that the offense isn't about 1 player, it's about a game plan that includes several players being on the same page. It amazes me how much stock people are throwing into the whole QB position by itself. Steve Young was in just as bad a situation as Carr and yet not a single persone would have predicted Young to be as successful as he was in his final year with the Bucs. Even more recently take Jake Plummer, unless you watched how Plummer had potential when he was with the Cards, you wouldn't have guessed he'd make it to the Pro-Bowl someday, especially after watching the Cards stink it up.kbourda said:
