A Theory About The Run Blocking

[tsip]

TK, I'm trying to understand your logic about our run game that avg 3.2 ypc vs our opp that avg 4.7 ypc-we have 1 rushing TD (by our QB)/opp has 5 rushing TDs.

Generally, I would think if you ran the ball on 1st/2nd/3rd downs you would at least want your ypc to avg enough yds to get you a first down.

I'm assuming that you think if we run the ball more our results will be better,right?...and you know that because_______________

 

[texan279]

TK, I'm trying to understand your logic about our run game that avg 3.2 ypc vs our opp that avg 4.7 ypc-we have 1 rushing TD (by our QB)/opp has 5 rushing TDs.

Generally, I would think if you ran the ball on 1st/2nd/3rd downs you would at least want your ypc to avg enough yds to get you a first down.

I'm assuming that you think if we run the ball more our results will be better,right?...and you know that because_______________

That is exactly what he thinks. I guess instead of 20 carries for 60 yards, 30 for 90 yards would be much better.

 

[thunderkyss]

Then why are you complaining about us having only 5 carries in the second half against Philly, you know we were behind in that game as well...were we supposed to run the ball 20 times in the second half playing from behind? And why are you complaining about us only getting 23 carries per game? You know we have been playing from behind a lot this season, are we supposed to run the ball 40 times a game while playing from behind?

When we got the ball in the second half, we were down by 11. We ran the ball 3 times..... 3 yards, 2 yards(first down) & 11 yards(first down). After that last first down, we went to three straight passes. A short 4 yard pass to Lundy, an incomplete pass, short right, then a 10 yard sack. we had to punt.

we should have ran the ball more....

Our defense forced a punt. Still, we are down by 11.

Again, we go with three straight passes, 5 yards to Andre, sack, incomplete to Owen.

Again, should have ran the ball more

Our defense holds the Eagles to a field goal. We get the ball back 12:41 remaining in the 4th Qtr, down by 14. We pass, 7 yard run, pass, pass, pass, pass(david scrambles for the 1st), pass 4 yard run, pass, pass (scramble for 2), pass

Down by 14, with dang near 13 minutes in the 4th Qtr is not the time to abandon the run game.

& I'm not compaining about the 23 carries per game, I'm poinint out we don't have many yards compared to other teams, because we haven't been running the ball as much as we should have. We are not running the ball as much, because we were behind (Against Indy 27-3 to start the third Qtr with 8:07 left in the Qtr, Against Washington, we are down 21-7 to start the third, go 3 & out, allow a touchdown, and are down 28-7 with 5:29 left in the third), & not because of poor run production.

 

[thunderkyss]

TK, I'm trying to understand your logic about our run game that avg 3.2 ypc vs our opp that avg 4.7 ypc-we have 1 rushing TD (by our QB)/opp has 5 rushing TDs.

Generally, I would think if you ran the ball on 1st/2nd/3rd downs you would at least want your ypc to avg enough yds to get you a first down.

I'm assuming that you think if we run the ball more our results will be better,right?...and you know that because_______________

Philly:
1st half
33 snaps 11 runs (18 yards ) 22 passing plays.

2nd half
22 snaps 5 runs (25 yards)

I want us to run more often, when we are avg'ing 5 yards per carry, this was our first game as a team, we are doing something different. Or passing game did in fact open the run.

Indy
1st half
27 snaps 13 runs (51 yards) 14 passing plays

2nd half
26 snaps 7 runs (46 yards) 19 passing plays

3.9 ypc in the first........ 6.5 ypc in the second... 4.85 ypc the entire game. Our avg ypc would have got the first down, running on 1st, 2nd, & 3rd down.

Poor running is not why we stopped running against Indy.

Washington
1st half
28 plays 10 runs (38 yards) 18 passing plays

2nd half
23 plays 5 runs (20 yards) 18 passing plays

3.8 ypc in the first, 4 ypc in the second, 3.86 ypc combined. Our avg ypc would have got us the first down, if we ran on 1st, 2nd, & 3rd down.

Poor running was not the reason we stopped running against Washington.

Miami was really, really bad, and ruined our numbers. Even though it is only one game.

 

[HOU-TEX]

I want us to run more often, when we are avg'ing 5 yards per carry, this was our first game as a team, we are doing something different. Or passing game did in fact open the run.

3.9 ypc in the first........ 6.5 ypc in the second... 4.85 ypc the entire game. Our avg ypc would have got the first down, running on 1st, 2nd, & 3rd down.

Poor running is not why we stopped running against Indy.


3.8 ypc in the first, 4 ypc in the second, 3.86 ypc combined. Our avg ypc would have got us the first down, if we ran on 1st, 2nd, & 3rd down.

Poor running was not the reason we stopped running against Washington.

Miami was really, really bad, and ruined our numbers. Even though it is only one game.

Are you typing to yourself? LOL!

 

[texan279]

we should have ran the ball more....


Again, should have ran the ball more



Down by 14, with dang near 13 minutes in the 4th Qtr is not the time to abandon the run game.

& I'm not compaining about the 23 carries per game, I'm poinint out we don't have many yards compared to other teams, because we haven't been running the ball as much as we should have. We are not running the ball as much, because we were behind (Against Indy 27-3 to start the third Qtr with 8:07 left in the Qtr, Against Washington, we are down 21-7 to start the third, go 3 & out, allow a touchdown, and are down 28-7 with 5:29 left in the third), & not because of poor run production.

Down by 14 against Philly with 13 minutes left in the game you can't just run the ball against a team with the #1 offense in the NFL and hope to catch up. You said yourself teams do not run as much when they are down, yet everything you pointed out we were down by 2 scores and you are complaing that we didn't run the ball enough.

 

[thunderkyss]

Down by 14 against Philly with 13 minutes left in the game you can't just run the ball against a team with the #1 offense in the NFL and hope to catch up. You said yourself teams do not run as much when they are down, yet everything you pointed out we were down by 2 scores and you are complaing that we didn't run the ball enough.

.

I'm not complaining that we didn't run the ball enough. Against Indy & Washington, it's understandable that we had to get away from the run game. As far as those two are concerned, the avg rushing yards per game is going to look bad. Not because we couldn't run, but because we didn't. & that's okay. I understand.

Against Philly, we didn't run the ball enough. I'm complaining about that.

Miami, we sucked.

 

[infantrycak]

Philly vs. Texans--3.5 ypc vs. everyone else 3.75 ypc
Indy vs. Texans--4.7 ypc vs. everyone else 5.3 ypc
Washington vs. Texans--3.4 ypc vs. everyone else 3.5 ypc
Miami vs. Texans--2.0 ypc vs. everyone else 3.1 ypc

The Texans have underperformed against every single team they have faced this season compared to what those same D's have given up to other teams.

 

[thunderkyss]

Philly vs. Texans--3.5 ypc vs. everyone else 3.75 ypc
Indy vs. Texans--4.7 ypc vs. everyone else 5.3 ypc
Washington vs. Texans--3.4 ypc vs. everyone else 3.5 ypc
Miami vs. Texans--2.0 ypc vs. everyone else 3.1 ypc

The Texans have underperformed against every single team they have faced this season compared to what those same D's have given up to other teams.

yeah, that settles it. We suck.

0.25 yards worse than every other team that has played the Eagles. The Cowboys, The Giants, they need to get rid of their running backs, and start over. Get rid of the Oline.... those guys aren't worth crap.

0.6 yards/carry worse than every other team that played Indy...... doesn't matter that our guy was only with our team for 9 days. TikiBarber & FredTaylor, bums..... those OLines, worthless.

0.10 yards worse than every team that's played Washington in '07. FredTaylor, & Julius Jones should be hitting the waiver list soon, but why would we want those bums if they can't perform against Washington.

1.1 yards less than anyone against Miami..... yes, that is a cause for concern. We need to look at that game, and see what the problem is.

 

[texan279]

yeah, that settles it. We suck.

0.25 yards worse than every other team that has played the Eagles. The Cowboys, The Giants, they need to get rid of their running backs, and start over. Get rid of the Oline.... those guys aren't worth crap.

0.6 yards/carry worse than every other team that played Indy...... doesn't matter that our guy was only with our team for 9 days. TikiBarber & FredTaylor, bums..... those OLines, worthless.

0.10 yards worse than every team that's played Washington in '07. FredTaylor, & Julius Jones should be hitting the waiver list soon, but why would we want those bums if they can't perform against Washington.

1.1 yards less than anyone against Miami..... yes, that is a cause for concern. We need to look at that game, and see what the problem is.

I am so tired of hearing that excuse, if he wasn't ready he wouldn't have been on the field.

 

[tsip]

"when we are avg'ing 5 yards per carry"

This is a no-brainer that does not happen very often for any team, let alone the Texans. TK, you act like each team has a 'stat' machine in the press box that can tell them what play to run based upon the avg of previous plays in the same game.........at a moment notice.

Contradictions!! First, you say Kubiak is the 'man.' Second, Kubiak says-in effect-the run sucks. Third, you say the run game is great, just need to do it more.

I'm begining to think you pick out 'trains of thought' that you know will be 'confrontational' so you can post over and over and over and over-did I say over-again till no one but you is left 'standing'!:brickwall

 

[thunderkyss]

I am so tired of hearing that excuse, if he wasn't ready he wouldn't have been on the field.

0.6 ypc....... & it's still over 4 ypc...... he was ready.

 

[texan279]

0.6 ypc....... & it's still over 4 ypc...... he was ready.

Then why are you saying he was only here 9 days?

 

[thunderkyss]

"when we are avg'ing 5 yards per carry"

This is a no-brainer that does not happen very often for any team, let alone the Texans. TK, you act like each team has a 'stat' machine in the press box that can tell them what play to run based upon the avg of previous plays in the same game.........at a moment notice.

Contradictions!! First, you say Kubiak is the 'man.' Second, Kubiak says-in effect-the run sucks. Third, you say the run game is great, just need to do it more.

I'm begining to think you pick out 'trains of thought' that you know will be 'confrontational' so you can post over and over and over and over-did I say over-again to no one but you is left 'standing'!:brickwall

even the first half stats aren't bad enough to abandon the run, when we are only down by 11 with 11:28 seconds to go in the 3rd Qtr. On that possesion, we run the ball 3 times for 16 yards. & only run the ball 2 other times for the remainder of the half.

We all say Kubiak is the man, & alot of people are upset with him for all kinds of things. Wand, Bedell, Pitts, Joppru, Taylor, running instead of passing, passing instead of running........

I just don't understand why he would say what he has said in reference to the run game, when the run game has been doing well(not great) in all but the Miami game.

& I don't see how we fans can say the problem is the running backs, when they have been doing well in all but the miami game.

 

[real]

The run game is not good....The run game sucks....BUT we still need to do it more...

 

[thunderkyss]

Then why are you saying he was only here 9 days?

Dayne only avg'd 3.3 ypc against Indy. it was the big run by Gado (27 yards) that helped that stat.

But Dayne got the bulk of the carries....... 11. & Lundy's 6 for 25 also boosted the stat.

 

[edo783]

Why am I thinking there is some sort of baseball nerd/stats geek/trading card discussion going on? All the stats are great, but our running game still sucks...........alot.

 

[Texans_Chick]

Why am I thinking there is some sort of baseball nerd/stats geek/trading card discussion going on? All the stats are great, but our running game still sucks...........alot.

I don't think there is not much real dispute about whether the running game is struggling. The stats say it and the coach says it. There are the obvious reasons that can look to the types of running backs we have and the infamous line gel etc. In the paper today, they are talking about thinking less and doing more. Any time you learn anything new physically, that is always going to be a concern.

But this thread was started to look at the macro issue of whether philosophically what Sherman is doing can work with what Kubiak's offense is designed to do.

I just keep thinking about the game film I watched of Denver in the offseason, and Kyle Shanahan talking about the way the blocking is supposed to work. And showing examples of how it could make Freeney look silly at times. And he talked about trying to get Gruden to change some of Tampa Bay's blocking schemes to get defense ends more confused, but Gruden didn't want to do it. (It is hard to explain the specific point without visuals).

My question ultimately is whether the fusion of the Green Bay style and the Denver style doing things is hindering the running game.

We might not get a good answer about this stuff this weekend, because the Cowboys really do not like to give up the run, but they can have some difficulties with covering good receivers--and I expect a similar game plan to what was used with Miami.

 

[real]

My question ultimately is whether the fusion of the Green Bay style and the Denver style doing things is hindering the running game.

I honestly don't think mixing two different styles has as much to do with our struggling running game as it does with not having the right type of back or backs to run the zone stretch....I keep hearing everyone talking about how we haven't been running ZBS as much....Well my question is: How do you know??? Im not saying you're wrong or anyone else is...but was this something you went back and looked at film, or was this something Kubes has said???

 

[dat_boy_yec]

Dayne only avg'd 3.3 ypc against Indy. it was the big run by Lundy (27 yards) that helped that stat.

But Dayne got the bulk of the carries....... 11. & Lundy's 6 for 25 also boosted the stat.

Lundy? For real, cuz I could have sworn that that long run was broken by Gado. Okay, we had one good run against a team that usually sucks against the run to boost up our YPC what does that tell you. Against Philly we avg. less than 3 yds. a game per carry. Washington was our only decent game before we reverted to our bad form in the Miami game. I could break down alot of things, but the point is our running game sucks. The coaching staff has to make it work.

 

[dat_boy_yec]

I honestly don't think mixing two different styles has as much to do with our struggling running game as it does with not having the right type of back or backs to run the zone stretch....I keep hearing everyone talking about how we haven't been running ZBS as much....Well my question is: How do you know??? Im not saying you're wrong or anyone else is...but was this something you went back and looked at film, or was this something Kubes has said???

I agree with this. I know we've seen some plays ran in the GB mold, but the thing is they're not being called at the same time. Each play has it's assigments so it's the lines job to know what they're to do and go through with it. From what I've seen we've run a ton of ZBS and you know how I know when I see it is the line moving in one direction. The other thing I've noticed is they open up huge holes when they do this, but our RB's just haven't been able to cut back to reach the hole. I've seen these holes when I'm at the game, and second guess myself until I re-watch the game at home and it doesn't change the holes are there, our RB's aren't running through them.

 

[ojthecat]

The bottom line is our running is bad not because of mixing of two systems but because of the personel. Can you name any team in the NFL that would trade their OL for ours? Or any team that would trade their RB's for ours?

We need better players... That is all.

 

[Buffi2]

But this thread was started to look at the macro issue of whether philosophically what Sherman is doing can work with what Kubiak's offense is designed to do.

My question ultimately is whether the fusion of the Green Bay style and the Denver style doing things is hindering the running game.

I think that we are looking for a relatively simple solution to a complex problem. Everyone's opinion on this subject is valid and it is probably some kind of combination of all of them that is causing the running game to be notgood.

You can't just say that the two philosophies can't/don't mesh - the question is can they mesh with the players we have? Or, are the players capable of the meshing but just ain't quite there yet. Or, all of the above plus any number of other combinations.

This could be a reason Kubiak spent last week reviewing the first four weeks - to try and answer - maybe not this question - but the general wtf is wrong with the running game question. A little time out while the smart coach guy attempts to find the problem(s) and then a solution. I hope he found them.

I think we will get at least an inkling of whether Kubiak found a key Sunday - a bit more to speculate about.

 

[sleepwalker]

Here's what I think:

1. Davis is gone and our O Line is average at best.

This is the problem and you can't polish a turd...It really doesnt matter what scheme or run philosophy they try to use.

 

[tsip]

Here's what I think:

1. Davis is gone and our O Line is average at best.

This is the problem and you can't polish a turd...It really doesnt matter what scheme or run philosophy they try to use.

...many posters questioned the status of (among other things) our RB and DB situation entering the season, and Kubiak said they were both fine/OK

 

[texan279]

Here's what I think:

1. Davis is gone and our O Line is average at best.

This is the problem and you can't polish a turd...It really doesnt matter what scheme or run philosophy they try to use.

Exactly. Davis was/is a good back, the last few years our running game has been good. Now we've got 2 below average backs and the running game has gotten worse.

 

[mexican_texan]

I hope Gado can pick up the ZBS here. He reportedly had a hard time learning it in GB.

 

[TK_Gamer]

Yeah, that Kubiak is one stubborn cuss.

The only time we came close to balancing our attack, we win the game.

Other than that, we've passed more than we've run the ball. & we've run the ball well, more times than not, except in the one win.

Philly:
1st half
33 snaps 11 runs (18 yards ) 22 passing plays.

2nd half
22 snaps 5 runs (25 yards)

Indy
1st half
27 snaps 13 runs (51 yards) 14 passing plays

2nd half
26 snaps 7 runs (46 yards) 19 passing plays

Washington
1st half
28 plays 10 runs (38 yards) 18 passing plays

2nd half
23 plays 5 runs (20 yards) 18 passing plays

Miami
1st Half
27 plays 12 runs (26 yards) 15 passing plays

2nd Half
37 plays 16 runs (26 yards) 21 passing plays.

ok so :

philly 16 runs for 42 yards = 2.6 yds per carry

indy 20 runs for 97 yards = 4.8 yds per carry

skins 15 runs for 58 yards = 3.86 yds per carry

miami 28 runs for 52 yards = 1.86 yds per carry

where do you see we ran the ball well besides indy? even if you call 3.8 ypc good thats only 2 out of 4 and does not constitute "more times than not" the indy and wash games we ran better because they losened up the defense to stop the pass, but we were so far behind it became a non issue because we had to throw the ball to try and catch up. IMHO we won the Miami game because we played good defense and had an adequate passing game. the run never mattered. the miami game showed we cannot run against a good run defense. phily and indy showed we cannot stop a good QB from scoring on us. and the skins game showed we cannot get to the QB without blitzing. I dont see any good news about our running game so far other than Carr can run for a touchdown with a good play fake. I think we made a mistake getting gado though, at least dayne showed he can make a cut and gain 3 to 4 yards with a guy on his back. we give up or fastest back and gain a strait ahead runner that cant see a hole right next to him. we have a long way to go. practice practice practice. at least seth wand could zone block.

 

[Texans_Chick]

I agree with this. I know we've seen some plays ran in the GB mold, but the thing is they're not being called at the same time. Each play has it's assigments so it's the lines job to know what they're to do and go through with it. From what I've seen we've run a ton of ZBS and you know how I know when I see it is the line moving in one direction. The other thing I've noticed is they open up huge holes when they do this, but our RB's just haven't been able to cut back to reach the hole. I've seen these holes when I'm at the game, and second guess myself until I re-watch the game at home and it doesn't change the holes are there, our RB's aren't running through them.

IIRC, at the time of the Denver game, Sherman was getting a little snippy about people saying that the Texans were running just a Denver ZBS. He said it was different.

As for the Green Bay plays, it does matter throwing those in there. The way that Denver did things, even the plays that didn't work were meant to set up the defense later in the game to bite on stuff. The Green Bay plays don't really do that, because they are straight up, we are going to run at you plays. And they require different skill sets to do correctly.

 

[real]

And they require different skill sets to do correctly.

BAM!!! theres your answer....We need different players that fit our scheme....It's not impossible to run the scheme we're running.....But thats where the coach has to decide whether he's going to stick with his scheme and find players that fit or if he is going to change his scheme to fit the players he has now.....Having observed Kubiak thus far....Im going to go with option #1....I think he is just going to get rid of the players that don't fit....It just depends on how you look at the problem...Not having lineman versatile enough to run both schemes...or....the scheme being too difficult.....

 

[Runner]

....the scheme being too difficult.....

As I understand it, the scheme is an easy one to run. That was one factor that helped us to our gaudy pre-season record - our less experienced 2nd/3rd string offensive players could execute the scheme effectively and handle the other team's 2nd/3rd string defenses.

 

[thunderkyss]

As I understand it, the scheme is an easy one to run. That was one factor that helped us to our gaudy pre-season record - our less experienced 2nd/3rd string offensive players could execute the scheme effectively and handle the other team's 2nd/3rd string defenses.

It's also why many colleges use it........

I think, however, that Kubiak said they were going to look at what formations worked, and what didn't. By formations, I think that might extend to blocking schemes.

I think what he was saying, was that they are going to streamline their offensive playbook. Making it more ZBS than Greenbay, or more Greenbay than ZBS.......

 

[nunusguy]

I hope Kubiak is not going "wobbly" in the knees with his commitment to
the WCO system featuring ZB that he knows and practiced when at Denver.
Though not directly related to the OL, his latest personel decision to bring in the big FB Leach is troubling.
Zone guys in the OL are small, quick and atheletic who move laterally and deeper into the defense as opposed to the bulky, powerful behemoths who drive block staright ahead. Occasional you'll get a player who is both, but
as a policy you need to be commited to one or the other or you'll end up with a sytem that in general is staffed with players that is not capable of being real successful at either scheme.

 

[Texans_Chick]

I hope Kubiak is not going "wobbly" in the knees with his commitment to
the WCO system featuring ZB that he knows and practiced when at Denver.
Though not directly related to the OL, his latest personel decision to bring in the big FB Leach is troubling.
Zone guys in the OL are small, quick and atheletic who move laterally and deeper into the defense as opposed to the bulky, powerful behemoths who drive block staright ahead. Occasional you'll get a player who is both, but
as a policy you need to be commited to one or the other or you'll end up with a sytem that in general is staffed with players that is not capable of being real successful at either scheme.

I think the Leach signing is what they said it was. Too many TEs on the roster and not enough FBs.

Leach was available, Sherman was familiar with him, they had a need.

The types of pickups that you will be doing this time of year aren't necessarily the ideal pickups you would do in the offseason.

 

[Runner]

Too many TEs on the roster and not enough FBs.

True. When the team broke up into postion meetings at practice Bennie went the with fullbacks, not the tight ends. I think Kubiak liked what he saw in Bennie and tried to keep him but just couldn't make it work.

I still question if we'll keep two fullbacks on the roster when Wong and Mathis come off the PUP.