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3-4 defense

I will always compare and contrast the Steelers 3-4 to ours. When you look at the Steelers 3-4 they have at least 3 guys in the linebacker corps with high motors. Too much in one to get himself kicked out, but at least he has fire. Peek reminds me so much of Porter that next year I seem in starting at the ROLB spot. He just needs a little more seasoning and Wong can move to the Buc spot. I think our line is better than theirs but we are just not calling the right mix of blitzes. I don't think I say 1 corner blitz yesterday. The mentality of lets bend don't break on several of these games leaves me to believe that in those cases our defense was more on it heals in a read and react mode more than taking over a game. There is plenty of share to go around. I pin this more on the offense than the defense. Because if you look at it, in all of the Colts losses the other team had to score more than 24 points. We only got 14. From the get go both sides of the ball came out without any fire. I saw a glimse of it from the offense when we were moving the ball until the interception intended for AJ.
 
Vinny said:
Pittsburgh, San Diego, and New England seem to do well with it. It's not the 3-4 scheme. We are just a .500 team and most of you guys don't see it.
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:coolb: exactly don't you guys wish you had steve foley now that he has 6 sacks and has been a terror on defense for us with several big hits. I'd like to personally thank the texans GM for letting steve foley go so we could sign him. :banana: :heh:

You guys need to focus on bringing in guys that want to play smashmouth football. Not neccesarily big names just good football players like foley randall godfrey etc..... It's working for the Chargers it has worked for the patriots and even last years bengals improved because of it they just have carson palmer slowing them down this year
 
SDBoltz said:
:coolb: exactly don't you guys wish you had steve foley now that he has 6 sacks and has been a terror on defense for us with several big hits. I'd like to personally thank the texans GM for letting steve foley go so we could sign him. :banana: :heh:
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It's deja vu/Jeff Possey all over again. If the Texans can't identitfy the best players on their team (or formerly on their team), no wonder they are struggling so with some of their assessments of college talent as potential draft picks.
 
SInce we're discussing defence's and all that; is it my imagination (deleted teh Tivo copy of the game, so I can't check this for sure) that the few blitzes we run are very simple blitzes and not the complex ones that give teh opposing O-line fits (see teh Sharper/Babin? crossing blitz against the Raiders). Nad I don't think blitzing a CB is all that comple these days.
 
the 3-4 gives you great options in the blitz game. For us in the beginning of the year our blitz schemes were simple because it is our first year in the system. Now we are mixing it up and really disguising our blitzes well
 
steve foley was released because of the other two young OLB's the texans have. The real shame was that the bengals released him after he was a starter, and now they dont ahve any linebackers healthy. And i agree peek may be starting next year with wong having to move one more time to ILB, but if the season doesnt turn around soon i would make the move soon. And corner back blitzes. Dunta has had a few of them and i believe he has applied a lot of pressure on them if not getting a sack, he is a gamer and he has the speed and power to do it, so let him loose three times a game. the beauty of the scheme is that with the others rushing they wouldnt see the cb blitz coming so it works. and i agree with the comment about hte lack of mixing up the blitz. Shoot i would almost have all the linebackers off the line and have them blitz in all different directions instead of straight up. like i said in another post, if they did that it would be hard to know whos doing what and the oline wouldnt be able to make as easy reads on whos blocking who, just like the old UFO defense the browns ran for a year.
 
this has been an informative post (for me at least) searching for answears to the demise of what seemed at seasons mid point to at least be an capable defense. Also this thread was started during the game I believe still in the 3rd quater so I was obviously upset & some of it may have been just venting. I apologise to anyone I may have offended (supergenius).

I've been terrible @ predicting scores, not even close on a single game (losing the easy ones, winning the difficult ones-forget about the last two) I really thought the Texans defense would improve as the season wore on as the rookies matured and the players already in place would master the 3-4. This is not an excuse because there is none. Its planely obvious I don't understand how the 3-4 works because it sure seems we do have the personel to run it.

the consensous from all your posts seems to be one of lack of exacution & not the scheme itself. Fine, maybe we are getting somewhere now why are the Texans suddenly not exacuting the 3-4? I can understand its a five year plan and the Texans are a couple playmakers short on the defensive side but still I expect them to compete and hang in the games & not totally get blown out week after week.
 
of course its not the scheme, it works for many teams. i have started to come around and blame the use of the scheme by the coaches a little bit more though. I think that the players we have can be used in other ways that would make this defense much more effective. I think that they need to open things up with blitzes, and stop dropping everyone back (the LBs) into coverage so much. say what we want about the pass rush but sending four guys isnt going to get much done against an oline that is decent. if other teams only sent four guys against us, we would expect carr to never get a grass stain on him (but not necessarily with our oline). We need to get the players in situations where they can make more happen. I think earl will provide more excitement with a few more games of actually playing, duanta is doing well, sharper is going to always produce if he gets a little help, and i still want to see the LB set up sometime with wong in the middle for foreman and peek and babin on the outside.
 
Trust me we were all shocked yesterday at the play of the whole team. And I still like Beer ;) I've just watched the game again and I saw several instances of us dropping LB's that shouldn't be dropped that far. As Vinny has noted, Foreman dropping back into coverage is insane. Did you see his coverage on that TD?? It was like oops there's the ball. They totally exploited us on many plays that involved Foreman playing 5-10 yards back. I saw Sharper apply pressure up the middle and flush out Manning, but it seem to have been too few times his number was called to do so. The defensive plan was just waaaaaay to timid and not aggressive. I'd rather lose by trying to create plays on defense than be passive as Manning can pick and choose his targets. Like I said before, I think this game rests on the shoulders of many and all. Even Kris Brown!!!!
 
Vinny said:
We still need another starting linebacker before we take a reserve DL. It's hard to make too many adjustments when you are the thinnest team in the league talent wise. Our starters can compete with the rest of the league, but our reserves are still expansion thin.
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In this day and age of free agency it doesn't take 5 years to aquire depth. If this was the 70's or 80's yes. Capers didn't do a great job in the expansion draft. He also signed some questionable free agents for big money that haven't produced like they should. The draft has been our only saving grace.
I still want someone to tell me what our measuring stick is for our 5 year plan. You can't just get to the end of 5 years and then decide whether or not its working without ever evaluating the plan along the way. That's bad business. The Texans played better last year with a lot more injuries. They don't have the same passion. The only good team we have beaten this year is Jacksonville. Last year we played alot of great teams to the wire with less talent on the field.
 
The team played a lot more conservatively last year. Davis also ran better. This season the running game is gone and we have gotten a little too pass happy. We need to run the ball more to shorten the game and help cover the deficiencies of our defense. The longer the defense is on the field, the more likely our opponents can exploit their plethora of weaknesses.
 
bckey said:
In this day and age of free agency it doesn't take 5 years to aquire depth. If this was the 70's or 80's yes. Capers didn't do a great job in the expansion draft. He also signed some questionable free agents for big money that haven't produced like they should. The draft has been our only saving grace.
I still want someone to tell me what our measuring stick is for our 5 year plan. You can't just get to the end of 5 years and then decide whether or not its working without ever evaluating the plan along the way. That's bad business. The Texans played better last year with a lot more injuries. They don't have the same passion. The only good team we have beaten this year is Jacksonville. Last year we played alot of great teams to the wire with less talent on the field.
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Casserly did great in the expansion draft. You can't name anyone worth much of anything from the Browns expansion draft. The only players on those lists were insane salary guys, old guys and bottom of the roster players. To find as many real players and create a core team with an expansion draft is something that isn't easy to do.

The Texans have signed solid players and they have singned a few guys that are not going to do much. Just like any other team, and yes, it takes several years to build a team from air. You cannot fill a team with a deep and talented roster in two years.
 
bckey said:
I still want someone to tell me what our measuring stick is for our 5 year plan. You can't just get to the end of 5 years and then decide whether or not its working without ever evaluating the plan along the way. That's bad business. The Texans played better last year with a lot more injuries. They don't have the same passion. The only good team we have beaten this year is Jacksonville. Last year we played alot of great teams to the wire with less talent on the field.
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First, I'm not going to comment on the thread topic. I feel it's been thoroughly debunked.

FWIW, Casserly is on record as saying that there is no 5 year plan. I think everyone has their own benchmark in determining the team's progress. Bob McNair's measurement is the one that counts.

Regarding the "passion" displayed by the team, I think a lot of it has to do with expectations. Nothing was expected from the injury riddled team of '03 except effort. And effort was enough to play some close games with some good teams. Now, the players, coaches, & fans expect more. And with those expectations comes a certain amount of pressure. That's just human nature. As the younger players mature and the overall talent level rises, the team will learn to play up to those expectations.

Losing to Denver & Indy on the road does not surprise me. They have better teams and they were better prepared to win. Those losses shouldn't keep the Texans from handling their business at home and picking up a couple of road wins. That was the toughest part of the schedule, now the team has the opportunity to learn from those games and apply those lessons to the rest of the season. The Texans are a better team than they've shown the past 2 weeks and I still think that finishing the season at a 5-2 clip would not be shocking.
 
bckey said:
The Texans played better last year with a lot more injuries. They don't have the same passion. The only good team we have beaten this year is Jacksonville. Last year we played alot of great teams to the wire with less talent on the field.
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I think it was a big accomplishment(s) for us to beat KC & Tennessee @ their
stadiums, but aside from that, I gotta agree our efforts & passion were more
intense last year. That's troubling, but we "let up" (I won't use the Q word),
well before the Denver & Indy games ended."
 
As I said in the preseason - the problem is not the backers on this defense. It is the defensive line and the secondary. Where is Robier Smith?
 
Here is an interesting fact I came across on packerchatters.com:

It will be interesting to see how the Packers’ offense (4th in yards) attacks the Texans’ scheme. The strength of the Packers’ offensive line will be tested but they will have to show the ability to quickly adjust to the speed of the blitzing linebackers. The last time the Packers faced a 3-4 scheme was against the Atlanta Falcons in their only home playoff loss in team history back in 2002.
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Packerchatters.com
 
32nd in the league in sacks.

begs the question are sacks even necassary in a 3-4 scheme? is this just a underperforming 3-4 scheme? what scheme leads the league in sacks?
 
beerlover said:
32nd in the league in sacks.

begs the question are sacks even necassary in a 3-4 scheme? is this just a underperforming 3-4 scheme? what scheme leads the league in sacks?
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I dunno who leads in sacks, but Baltimore, New England, and Pittsburgh all have twice as many sacks as us. BTW Oakland and San Diego also have more sacks than us. Of teams that run the 3-4 we are last in sacks. :loser

Just looked it up and Baltimore, Pittsburgh, and Philly all lead with 28 sacks. 2 of the three run 3-4.
 
wags, one might surmise then that for a 3-4 defense to be successful it is absolutely imperative to sack the QB on a consistant basis. This is not happening, hence the 3-4 is not working. one could argue the Texans don't have the tools, a playmaker short of making the scheme effective.

after reviewing all these posts for the past week since the Colts game the problem stems from the game planning & predictabilty of the coaching staff also on the shoulders of the personel & their reads in the 3-4 scheme. The opposition is doing a better job preparing offenses to exploit holes in the Texans defense. The defensive coaches must find a way to stay aggressive & in this weeks match-up focus on shutting Farve down, The Texans Must Sack Farve to be effective.

its going to have to start with the CB's more in isolation man to man coverage. At least one (Babin) if not two (Peek) need to be unleshed on Farve from the LB's. The Big three MUST engage 1 & 1/2 per. thus freeing Babin & Peek plus sometime bringing in Sharper & his speed to pursue Farve when he breaks containment.

obviously everyone in the Texans organiaztion needs to be passionate & efforting 110% a total team effort will be required to beat the Farve & the Pack. Until the offenese gets untracked the defense needs to show up this week and not allow Farve free movement in & out of the pocket it will be the job of the 3-4 scheme, its players and coaching staff.
 
I just saw an interesting fact. The top three teams in pass protection are: Denver, Indianapolis, and Green Bay.

Oddly enough, those are our last three opponents. I think Brett Favre has only been sacked 5 times this year so far.
 
beerlover said:
wags, one might surmise then that for a 3-4 defense to be successful it is absolutely imperative to sack the QB on a consistant basis. This is not happening, hence the 3-4 is not working...
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Isn't it just as "absolutely imperative" for a 43 defense to sack the QB in order to be successful? The Texan defense isn't working, but I haven't seen evidence presented that the failures are formation related.

There are varying reasons as to why the Pats, Ravens, and Steelers get more pressure on the QB than the Texans do. The Pats get a better push up front from their D-line. Their linemen have 8.5 sacks compared to 3.5 from Payne, Smith, & Walker. The Ravens take more chances with the blitz. The Baltimore secondary has 8.5 sacks this year, compared to 1 by Houston's Kenny Wright. The Steelers get more pressure from different places. Steelers' ILB's have 6 sacks between them. DE Aaron Smith has 6 sacks (a big number for a 34 D-lineman). CB Deshea Townsend has 4 sacks (unbelievable for a corner).

It's not like the Pats, Ravens, and Steelers don't have excellent OLB pass rushers (McGinest, Suggs, & Porter respectively). Their common thread is that none of these teams rely solely on their OLB's to get to QB. Like these teams have, the Texans must find other means to get pressure.
 
here are the head to head match-ups, notice the Texans are defiecient to the Packer's in every category except punting-

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/headToHeadTeamResults?statsId1=9&statsId2=34&

that being said, we need Babin & Peek to sack Farve or a better bull rush from the Big 3 in the middle to be successful. We need our best covers doing exactly that blanketing the talented GB WR's not in some kind of zone that the Pakers can assimilate into swiss cheese.
 
In order to have a successful defense using the 3-4 you have to be able to merge into the 4-3 when your personnel are not making the grade. The 3-4 is a high octane defense, it requires high octane players and coaches to manage it. If pone piece is missing in this defense it collapses faster tan any other.

It is very difficult to maintain the 3-4 for an entire season due to injuries. The 3-4 is the best defense in the league IMO, but a DC has to know when to use it and when to lose it. The 3-4 is best under perfect conditions, when the conditions are not, you have to go to the 4-3. Ok I wanted to get that off my chest before I started reading this thread.
 
Jagsbch said:
The 3-4 is a high octane defense, it requires high octane players and coaches to manage it. If pone piece is missing in this defense it collapses faster tan any other.
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Would you mind elaborating as to why the 34 defense requires better players & coaches than the 43 defense? Why does it collapse faster than the 43 due to injuries? It may seem obvious to you, but it's not apparent to me.
 
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