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3-4 defense

beerlover

beerlover

Hall of Fame
ITS NOT WORKING. Decimated against the Colts, first Walker (sprained ankle) Payne (agrravated knee???) then Robaire Smith. Coaching has to adjust to their players strength, we need to shift to a 4-3. If they continue to run this formation without the BIG 3 the results will be the same. This being stated it means the Texans will be forced to draft a DT with the first pick next year, hopefully they will make the WRIGHT choice.
 
Pittsburgh, San Diego, and New England seem to do well with it. It's not the 3-4 scheme. We are just a .500 team and most of you guys don't see it.
 
beerlover said:
ITS NOT WORKING. Decimated against the Colts, first Walker (sprained ankle) Payne (agrravated knee???) then Robaire Smith. Coaching has to adjust to their players strength, we need to shift to a 4-3. If they continue to run this formation without the BIG 3 the results will be the same. This being stated it means the Texans will be forced to draft a DT with the first pick next year, hopefully they will make the WRIGHT choice.
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Manning is shreading everyone this year, but the chargers, Steelers, and Patriots all run the 3-4..pretty good teams...the scheme is not the problem and Roderick Wright is not that good
 
Vinny said:
Pittsburgh, San Diego, and New England seem to do well with it. It's not the 3-4 scheme. We are just a .500 team and most of you guys don't see it.
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you missed the point (I'm sure your just as pissed as the rest of us). With the injurys to the BIG 3 Cappers has to adjust his defense accordingly. The 3-4 is only successful if you have the personel to run it!
 
I agree with beerlover. We don't have the talent to play a 3-4. Pittsburgh and New England do. It hasn't worked for 3 years.
 
The Wal-Mart said:
I agree with beerlover. We don't have the talent to play a 3-4. Pittsburgh and New England do. It hasn't worked for 3 years.
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We have been an expansion team for three years. Perhaps you missed that little point.

It's not the scheme. We just don't have as much talent or are too young in some positions. We are starting three rookies on defense. Remember what our offense looked like when we started that many rookies?
 
It doesn't matter that we have been an expansion team. That excuse is getting old. It is the scheme. Our 3 man d-line and blitzers rarely breaks the o-line and how many times have the linebackers been burned when covering WRs and TEs, this season alone.
 
Vinny said:
We have been an expansion team for three years. Perhaps you missed that little point.

It's not the scheme. We just don't have as much talent or are too young in some positions. We are starting three rookies on defense. Remember what our offense looked like when we started that many rookies?
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none....none of those THREE STARTING ROOKIES are defensive lineman. The little point is for the 3-4 to be successful is that the Defensive Tackles engage greater number of lineman, thus freeing the rest of the defense to make the plays. Sorry but its not happening without the pressure.
 
The Wal-Mart said:
It doesn't matter that we have been an expansion team. That excuse is getting old. It is the scheme. Our 3 man d-line and blitzers rarely breaks the o-line and how many times have the linebackers been burned when covering WRs and TEs, this season alone.
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So the scheme missed all those tackles...brilliant
 
beerlover said:
none....none of those THREE STARTING ROOKIES are defensive lineman. The little point is for the 3-4 to be successful if that the Defensive Tackles engage greater number of lineman, thus freeing the rest of the defense to make the plays. Sorry but its not happening without the pressure.
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We have three rookies starting and a below average ILB in Foreman. We have more pressing needs than Payne, Walker and Smith if you ask me.
 
The Wal-Mart said:
It doesn't matter that we have been an expansion team. That excuse is getting old. It is the scheme. Our 3 man d-line and blitzers rarely breaks the o-line and how many times have the linebackers been burned when covering WRs and TEs, this season alone.
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Yes it does. We built a team from scratch. This stuff takes time. We drafted for Offense the first two years. You just have to build a team over a number of years. You just can't clap your hands and poof, playoff team.
 
We need the rookies to mature and we also need to upgrade our linebackers. I doubt a rookie nose tackle can beat out Payne but I'd look at one too, but we have solid starting down linemen. The Texans just need to upgrade a couple of positions and get some experience.

You were the guy who argued with me last year about drafting a linebacker. You had at least 20 posts in that one thread telling me there is NO way we take one...and we moved up in the first round and took one.
 
Vinny said:
We need the rookies to mature and we also need to upgrade our linebackers. I doubt a rookie nose tackle can beat out Payne but I'd look at one too, but we have solid starting down linemen. The Texans just need to upgrade a couple of positions and get some experience.

You were the guy who argued with me last year about drafting a linebacker. You had at least 20 posts in that one thread telling me there is NO way we take one...and we moved up in the first round and took one.
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exactly, most of us wanted a stud defensive tackle like Wilfork. I'll stand by that fact (despite that you where correct that the Texans would take a linebacker) I must have forgotten that you pegged Babin and that the Texans would trade up (2nd, 3rd & 4th round picks) :rofl:

Vinny, the point is the coaching staff seems incapable of adjusting to what transpires during the game, I mean you lose all three of your starting tackles (none whom are rookies) and you do not adjust your scheme?

Oh yeah Dominack Davis scores thanks to Aaron Glen's interception.
 
We still need another starting linebacker before we take a reserve DL. It's hard to make too many adjustments when you are the thinnest team in the league talent wise. Our starters can compete with the rest of the league, but our reserves are still expansion thin.
 
The best OLB in the draft for the Texans in the 3-4 is Pollack out of Georgia. The best MLB in the draft is Derrick Johnson Texas. I'll admit that I would not be crushed if either fell to the Texans. What I've been resoning would be the premier pick however (not a defensive tackle) is the Strong Safety from Georgia Thomas Davis, move Earl to FS and Coleman back to CB. But I digress. Based upon the last two games performance & Cappers insistance on the 3-4 that the Texans select the top DT in the draft (of course he has to declare first) is Rodrique Wright (that was a pun in the first post just in case you missed the little thing).

This topic will be surely revisited as the season continues. I just hope & pray that Gary Walker, Seth Payne & Robarie Smith will bounce back.
 
Yeah, we can agree on much of that and I will also agree that we need a youngster to groom for the DL. Building units from scratch is a tough task and takes time in this league. 22 starters and 22 quality reserves just don't happen in a couple of years.
 
So a switch the 4-3 is supposed to cure our "attitude" ??? What happens if one of your linebackers in the 4-3 get injured, do we switch to a 3-3-5? Oh this is laughable. Going to Indy with the one of the highest rated QB's in NFL history is one thing is a tough thing. If you want to blame someone or something, then blame the players for having no heart in this game, and blame the coaches for not using enough blitzing schemes. Then there is the offensive line and blah blah blah. It aint all the 3-4.
 
SESupergenius said:
So a switch the 4-3 is supposed to cure our "attitude" ??? What happens if one of your linebackers in the 4-3 get injured, do we switch to a 3-3-5? Oh this is laughable. Going to Indy with the one of the highest rated QB's in NFL history is one thing is a tough thing sonny. If you want to blame someone or something, then blame the players for having no heart in this game, and blame the coaches for not using enough blitzing schemes. Then there is the offensive line and blah blah blah. It aint all the 3-4.
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All we are talking about here is the 3-4 so whats your point. Its equally laughable to blame the Texans for "having no heart" or "blame the coaches for not using enough blitzing schemes".

We are not addressing the offensive line or any other aspect of the Texans game planning only the effectivness of the 3-4 defense given the BIG 3 up front hurt or playing hurt against the "highest rated QB's in NFL history". Try to keep focused to subject the 3-4 defense.
 
ok, watch some more football. Rant and rave all you want about the 3-4 (which is what you are *****ing about in the 1st place), but you can't deny the success of the scheme in the last few years. Care to explain why the Patriots use it? If it's the personnel you are questioniing then question them, not the scheme. So we put 1 man on the front line with Deloach and take out Foreman, wow, yea, that makes all the difference. My point is that you have no idea what your are talking about, especially going through 8-9 threads now of your reaching for excuses. Why don't you thow in the kitchen sink, that seems to be the problem with our team too. Guys just aren't getting the needed water from the kitchen sink.
 
On the post game show, it was mentioned that Walker is no where close to being the player he was 2 yrs ago. It was also said that Paine and Smith are not highly regarded as pass rushers; their strength is in stopping the run.

The 34 demands that the DL put pressure on the QB from up the middle. Our first round pick next year should address this area of weakness.

I agree with Vinny that we need to address our LB's. Use our second round pick to address this need, but it all starts up front.
 
Your pass rush is supposed to come from the Linebackers in this scheme. As an example, Gary Walker went to the probowl with 6 sacks in this very same 3-4 defense.

3-4 linemen are supposed to create push up the middle and take up blockers.

3-4 linemen are all 2-gap players. 2-gap players don't get many sacks.
 
Vinny said:
Your pass rush is supposed to come from the Linebackers in this scheme. As an example, Gary Walker went to the probowl with 6 sacks in this very same 3-4 defense.

3-4 linemen are supposed to create push up the middle and take up blockers.

3-4 linemen are all 2-gap players. 2-gap players don't get many sacks.
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Actually, the linemen need to collapse the pocket and bring some heat up the middle for the 3-4 defense to work. The LB's get the big sack numbers, but that is at least partly due to the QB getting flushed out of the pocket by the DL's and the LB's finishing him off.

Back to the original theme of this thread, it would be incredibly stupid to try to switch to a 4-3 in the middle of the season. The Texans have the personnel for a 3-4 and it would take at least one offseason full of change (and probably more) to successfully switch to a 4-3. Then expect a full season of players adjusting to a new role and to playing with new teammates.

It hasn't been the scheme, it has been the execution of the scheme. Playing against the Colts today was a bad time to have poor execution, because Manning can carve up a defense like few other QB's in the history of the game. In fact, Manning is probably playing better right now than any QB has ever played. By comparison, playing next week against Favre might be like a walk in the park after playing against Manning. I certainly hope so.

Lastly, Rod Wright will not be declaring for the draft. He has been hampered by a bad ankle all year and has not had a chance to show just how good he can be. Also, Longhorns don't leave early.
 
here comes my two cents for the day on the linebackers. Foreman got smoked in coverage quite a bit today. Babin played pretty well, and had a good play on the tightend on that out route and tackled him for no gain. Sharper is fine. Wong may have been a little off of his usual, but he did alright. Peek came in and played well, he kept contain and made a tackle at the line on james' cut back inside the 10, he had a couple good coverages, and he made a great pick in coverage. I think that he has shown that he could play more than the 4th quarter. i think something, especially in games like today where the offense stunk, capers and teh coaches need to learn from other teams and rotate players. Maybe our LB's get burnt cuz we do not rotate them at all during the game. Complain all you want that the LBs arent doing well or whatever, especially all the people who are peek critics on stopping the run (which he did today, and in his pass rush he closed the pocket without being up field), but maybe we have some talent that is being hindered by lack of playing time, and lack of breaks for the starters. Our linebackers are gonna get burnt sometime if they are playing every down and dropping into coverage so much against these passing teams.
 
SESupergenius said:
ok, watch some more football. Rant and rave all you want about the 3-4 (which is what you are *****ing about in the 1st place), but you can't deny the success of the scheme in the last few years. Care to explain why the Patriots use it? If it's the personnel you are questioniing then question them, not the scheme. So we put 1 man on the front line with Deloach and take out Foreman, wow, yea, that makes all the difference. My point is that you have no idea what your are talking about, especially going through 8-9 threads now of your reaching for excuses. Why don't you thow in the kitchen sink, that seems to be the problem with our team too. Guys just aren't getting the needed water from the kitchen sink.
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I mean whats up with Why don't you thow in the kitchen sink, that seems to be the problem with our team too. Guys just aren't getting the needed water from the kitchen sink :hmmm:

In reponse to other intelligent posts (thankyou) it would be silly to change in mid season to the 4-3 you are absolutley correct. Nor am I advocating abandonment of the 3-4 just the re-tooling. But while the Texans re-tool why not adjust to the hand thats been dealt. Move to the 4-3 with Babin on the line & Peek as the OLB. Use all the tools available to try and win games. Thats all I'm saying.

The point about Wright is well taken Born. I don't doubt at all what you said is the truth, what seems apparent though is the ineffectivness of the current personel (coaching, schemes, injurys etc....) to stop opposing offenses. Maybe Indy is a juggernaut but the Broncos? Oh yeah I think this is called venting :listening
 
First you say Posted
beerlover said:
Coaching has to adjust to their players strength, we need to shift to a 4-3.
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Then you say

beerlover said:
Nor am I advocating abandonment of the 3-4 just the re-tooling. But while the Texans re-tool why not adjust to the hand thats been dealt. Move to the 4-3 with Babin on the line & Peek as the OLB. Use all the tools available to try and win games. Thats all I'm saying.
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That is the best impersonation of John Kerry I have ever seen. Classic.

So lets say you fix all of this, can we still beat the Colts by only scoring 14 points?? Is it just me or are you grasping at anything that moves.
 
We have the tools to have a dominate 3-4 defense all we need is a few more playmakers.
DL- a young stud dt that can stop the run and get after the passer.
NT- a big run stuffer who is also quick enough to be effective on passing downs.
Middle linebacker- Jamie sharper deserves to play with someone as fast and good as him, such as a ahmad brooks or derrick johnson.

With the new people on the d-line it will make it alot easier for the olb to show how good they really are.
 
If our linemen are not pressuring the QB and our line backers are
having to drop back in pass coverage, where is the pressure on the QB
going to come from? Also, how is it every team we play can pressure our
QB SO MUCH but we can't return the same?,,,just wondering :hmmm:
 
In this game in particular we just were not blitzing on 3rd down. I have no reason for that but it seems that in several games when we don't have a good blitzing scheme on 3rd down the other team converts them. And those 3rd down conversions were killer for us today.
 
Different linebackers drop into coverage depending on the call. In the 3-4 opposing teams don't know where the 4th pass rusher is coming from, as contrasted to a 4-3 where you have all 4 down lineman coming on each play.
 
exactly, the scheme is fine, its just how the team played. The DBs werent covering anyone so they couldnt blitz, we had to drop LBs back into coverage a lot. Honestly, i think they did pretty well in coverage and many times you would see them chasing down the wideouts that burned the DBs all the way to the endzone. Wheres the safetys and CBs?
 
The Texans are too predictable, thats why the game planning agaisnt us has been so successful, I'm not sure why its become so obvious (could be all the injurys on the line) but you have to admit they are taking full advantage of it each week.
 
I'm not a big fan of running the 3-4 fulltime. NE runs all kinds of formations. They are not a 3-4 only team. I prefer a 4-3, and not all of my preference is based on stuff happening on the field, or the scheme itself. It just seems to me you have to make too many "projections" in the college draft. Some guys can't make the convversion. The 3-4 is also a more complicated scheme. LEt's face it, most of these guys aren't brain surgeons. I think there are maybe 1-2 colleges employing the 3-4, so you end up churning draft picks looking for one Kevin Greene. I would rather us move to a 4-3. Peek could be a pass rush specialst in the mold of Freeney. And Babin is good enough to hold up as an every down lineman. Take away the coverage responsibilties from these guys, and let them rush the passer.

Having said all that, it really doesn't matter what scheme they are running if people aren't hustling ala Deloach..
 
I also don't think it is the scheme, but the personal. Maybe it is time to look at Wong on the inside, and try Peek (this should make GWashington happy, or Anderson at the outside). I know Peek struggled against the run in preseason, but maybe with more PT, he'll learn to step up. I know Wong is having a pretty good year on the right side, but several people have said they thought he would be a step up for Foreman on the inside. Let's find out before the season ends, then we'll know more about what we have and what we need at LB for next years draft. :twocents:
 
Porky said:
I'm not a big fan of running the 3-4 fulltime. NE runs all kinds of formations. They are not a 3-4 only team. I prefer a 4-3, and not all of my preference is based on stuff happening on the field, or the scheme itself. It just seems to me you have to make too many "projections" in the college draft. Some guys can't make the convversion. The 3-4 is also a more complicated scheme. LEt's face it, most of these guys aren't brain surgeons. I think there are maybe 1-2 colleges employing the 3-4, so you end up churning draft picks looking for one Kevin Greene. I would rather us move to a 4-3. Peek could be a pass rush specialst in the mold of Freeney. And Babin is good enough to hold up as an every down lineman. Take away the coverage responsibilties from these guys, and let them rush the passer.

Having said all that, it really doesn't matter what scheme they are running if people aren't hustling ala Deloach..
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well said Porky!

"NE runs all kinds of formations" that was my point. The fact the Texans are thin when ever the Big 3 are out (at one point in yesterdays game all of them where hurting, lucky they all returned but I'm not sure they had a choice or how effective they were) screams for making adjustments, meaning maybe abandoning the 3-4 UNTIL the players who can run it return.
 
V Man said:
I also don't think it is the scheme, but the personal. Maybe it is time to look at Wong on the inside, and try Peek (this should make GWashington happy, or Anderson at the outside). I know Peek struggled against the run in preseason, but maybe with more PT, he'll learn to step up. I know Wong is having a pretty good year on the right side, but several people have said they thought he would be a step up for Foreman on the inside. Let's find out before the season ends, then we'll know more about what we have and what we need at LB for next years draft. :twocents:
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that would make me happy, i would be happy if they at least did that one or two series a game. There isnt a need for a drastic switch of everything right away, but i think peek showed yesterday he has gotten better at the run and in the pass. Wong was a good MLB at minn. so why not use it to at least get some fresh legs out there. Plus the need for this team is not LBs if we could get wong backin teh middle. And does anyone else notice that our Dline seems to have one person get hurt every series?
 
There hasn't been a 4-3 or 3-4 yet that has stopped the Colts offense. It's very myopic to think that it's just the Texans' 3-4 scheme that is the problem. No 4-3 scheme has limited that offense to less than 24 points. Sure we gave up 35 points their offense, but so did KC, Oakland, and Greenbay. You don't see those teams complaining about the 4-3. This is just unreal. People graping at straws, creating utter mayhem and calling for complete changes midstream. Must be the same people that expected us in the playoffs this year.
 
beerlover said:
well said Porky!

"NE runs all kinds of formations" that was my point. The fact the Texans are thin when ever the Big 3 are out (at one point in yesterdays game all of them where hurting, lucky they all returned but I'm not sure they had a choice or how effective they were) screams for making adjustments, meaning maybe abandoning the 3-4 UNTIL the players who can run it return.
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We were in 4-3 looks in many times in the game. We ran out of the 3-3-5 for most of it to be honest. It's not the flippin alignment, its the players and the execution (coaching). If you look at the game again you will see us in multiple formations. You just have to look.
 
Vinny said:
We were in 4-3 looks in many times in the game. We ran out of the 3-3-5 for most of it to be honest. It's not the flippin alignment, its the players and the execution (coaching). If you look at the game again you will see us in multiple formations. You just have to look.
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point well taken. Can you explain why after the last two weeks the defense has looked so, for lack of better verbage ineffective? Seemed like the Texans defense was pretty good against Jacksonville & 1st half of the season. Did the personel change? Are there significant injurys? What changed?

what changed in my opinion is that teams have figured out how to take advantage of our defensive schemes. Opening the secondary like a can of Cambells soup. Yes I did notice the 4-3 look as you stated but there was still no pass rush, even when Payton stayed in late in the 4th quarter because they had to drop back into coverage, the Colts killed us with their tightends, just as Denver did last week. If its not the flippen alignment its the players & exectuion its because its out of balance not centered.
 
I donno BL. We put way too many 250 pound linebackers in iso coverage. I find it amazing that I rewind the game and I find Foreman isolated on Stokley and Harrison on different plays. I find it amazing that when I look at the game again I see simple square out patterns on isolated LB's ripping us to shreds. We run way, way, way too much linebacker isolation coverages and are caught in mismatches over and over.
 
I agree with that Vinny. So is it personel or the scheme?

In beer layman's terms is the glass half full or half empty? I agree that the Texans need to draft a playmaker on defense in the 1st round to make the 3-4 work. What I was hoping for (as it seems you where as well) was a lb/ss/cb but after viewing the Texans inability to even lay a hand on Manning a stud DT is #1 priorty. I'm just not sold on any of them however, which begs the question do they take the best defensive playmaker in the draft that fits the 3-4 or go in another direction?
 
beerlover said:
I agree with that Vinny. So is it personel or the scheme?

In beer layman's terms is the glass half full or half empty? I agree that the Texans need to draft a playmaker on defense in the 1st round to make the 3-4 work. What I was hoping for (as it seems you where as well) was a lb/ss/cb but after viewing the Texans inability to even lay a hand on Manning a stud DT is #1 priorty. I'm just not sold on any of them however, which begs the question do they take the best defensive playmaker in the draft that fits the 3-4 or go in another direction?
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If the past has been any indication, the priority will de on defensive play makers, but if there is a offensive guy that is a better player that is who the Texans will draft. Think the team has 8 picks, assuming that there are no trades I expect 5 or 6 defensive players out of that mix. Remember though this maybe the first year that the first round pick does not immediately walk into a starting job with the Texans.
 
What we need is someone teams have to scheme around. We need an Andre Johnson type of difference maker on defense. A guy teams have to adjust to right off the bat. Right now we just don't have that guy. Our 3 down linemen do well, but we have weak reserves behind them and most of them are decent players but nothing special. Sharper is all over but gets little to no help from Foreman, so that almost negates Sharper. Wong has had good games but he isn't Willie McGinnest. Speaking of Pats, Babin looks like Mike Vrabel. Solid, developing player, but not a superstar. We need one impact player. We just don't have it. People want to point fingers and blame the coaches or the scheme, but our rookies will play like rookies for the rest of the year and we don't have a true superstar that can take another team out of what they do well.
 
ArlingtonTexan said:
Think the team has 8 picks, assuming that there are no trades I expect 5 or 6 defensive players out of that mix.
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And that is a huge and risky assumption with Casserly at the controls. With
his wheeler-dealer mentality, he may do something real stupid like use the
2, 3, & 4 pick on some yocal from someplace like West Central Montana State A&M or some similar place. Wish he would have used a couple of those
picks in the last draft on a couple interior linemen. They would have come in real handy yesterday. No, I'm sure if O line wasn't a high priority in the 2005
draft, it became that in the last 2 weeks.
 
Correct on all of that Vinny, but we also need to turn up the intensity level. We seem to passive. More a react to what is hapenning defense rather than a, make it happen defense. That may just be a function of the quality of players we are fielding, but I suspect it is more a function of the coaching. Our coaching staff is a very passive "student of the game" type of staff and it seems to be reflected in the intensity level of the players. A lot of skill defenciency can be covered over by a higher level of intensity of play. In the games we have lost most people have refered to us as being "Flat" and I see that as a function of the coaching staffs prep of the team.
 
edo783 said:
Correct on all of that Vinny, but we also need to turn up the intensity level. We seem to passive. More a react to what is hapenning defense rather than a, make it happen defense.
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That was Fangio's knock at Indy. The scheme was so complex that it made the players look passive. Too much thinking, not enough seek and destroy.
 
i agree with the not enough seek and destroy, maybe it is a few players missing here or there, but there are some athletes taht need to be unleashed onto the opponents. Where is the 7 or 8 man blitz that would surely get quick pressure on the qb, which would allow the dbs to not have to cover for 6 secs. on one play. Where are more blitzes from duanta who has definately gotten into the back field on almost all of his blitzes this year. but once again i think that all goes somewhat back to the personel on the field. What happened to the experiment in preseason where wong moves to the middle with peek and babin on the outsides. Thats a pass rush that could be scary, thats three lineman going up the middle with the possibility of any of the four LBs coming as well. it would be rememiscent of the days of Clevelands UFO defense where they were all over and didnt know who was comiing or going. THe defense needs something original that hasnt been seen from the texans yet. they need to use what they have.
 
Vinny said:
That was Fangio's knock at Indy. The scheme was so complex that it made the players look passive. Too much thinking, not enough seek and destroy.
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I know early in the year i though Babin was really thinking a lot. I have not focused on him as much latley, but he has yet to display explosiveness, so he may still be. Possibiliy is this keeping Peek of the field. That said, Dunta did not seem to have to advst as much.

My big coaching staff issue on defense is that the team does seem to play better when blitzing a ton or forcing issues.
 
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