Wish to make a one time donation? Make it here.

2020 QB Tiers

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
O'Brien's offensive scheming is mediocre, at best. Which is why he had nothing during 51-7, even with a talented QB like Watson.

I simply cannot believe that someone like Andy Reid would have been caught so flat-footed if the roles had been reversed and he was working with Watson and the Texans roster.

Coaching matters. Players run the schemes demanded by the coach and adlib when the schemes fail to produce successful results. This was clear in the Bills comeback game.
What the buffalo playoff game showed was that tightening up your execution improves your performance dramatically. 1st half and pretty much most of the 3rd, the defense couldn't tackle & wrap up Josh Allen or Singletary to save their lives despite being in good position most of the times, sure handed guy like Nuk were fumbling the ball & DW4 looked like he was confused & didn't know what he was seeing. Hell the ST was even screwing up but got bailed out by "common sense" lol. Late 3rd they started tackling better, DW4 was much more decisive & accurate with his throws and you saw the result. Nothing at all changed about the playcalls or the scheme.
It aint the scheme that fails...The scheme has been around for decades and is proven. its the players failing in executing the scheme...


& Up until Reid secured perhaps the best young quarterback of this generation, he was known for coming up short in big moments. Just b/c Mahomes put on a heroic effort and saved him this past year doesn't mean those playoff failures he had in years prior where his offenses got effectively shut down go away.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Umm 2-14. You remember that year before BoB arrived right? Me thinks the o-line & team in general was crumbling well before BoB arrived. Look, we've been through this. "He" didn't "dismantle" anything. EXACTLY 1 guy from that o-line stated that he wanted no parts of BoB. But as even he later learned, alot that was going on with him at the time was being driven by an undiagnosed anxiety disorder. As for the others:

- 2 guys from that o-line were at the end of their rope .............evidenced by their subsequent retirements THE VERY NEXT YEAR.
- 1 guy's career was ended on a freak accidental play 2 years later
- 1 guy no longer wanted to be here ........but it had nothing to do with BoB......it was b/c he couldn't get an extension...and b/c he fell out with the then GM/Owners.

So unless you actually believe that BoB had some hand in 2 guys' retirements & he set up Derek Newton to tear both his ACL's against Denver, there's no way you can say he dismantled that line. The shuffling of o-linemen was in direct response to him & FO trying to find bandaid solutions while other needs were attempting to be addressed.

Last year's o'line wasn't marginally better. They were much better the 15 less sacks DW4 took last year is the easy go-to there.
Bro come on that 2-14 was not their true identity. The season before that they went 12-4 and 10-6 the season before that. It’s amazing to me on how you only key in on just that season.

No that line was not that much better. Much better is top 10 not top 20-20+
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
Of course partial blame of the personnel goes on the HC that goes without saying. That still doesn't take away the other half of the blame being on the players though & the problem with the way most on here tend to look at things is that very often the entirety of the blame is shifted to BoB, not partially as you say.
We are in agreement here. Players & coaches all share responsibility. I misinterpreted you, when you said "The players mostly determine whether the call is a success or not." It sounded like you were saying if a play fails, it's mostly on the players. I think it's an equal, shared responsibility between players & coaches.

Look at the post you made talking about the lack of production. Correct me if im misinterpreting, but the premise you were getting at is that the blame for the "lack of production" is the HC,his gameplans, playcall and schemes right? But let someone like myself offer up some of that blame on the players they like and root for.....say DW4, guys like Texanballer will pull out every excuse in the book to defend, downplay or outright skirt his or any other players' role in how those gameplans/playcalls and schemes are executed.
I am not a "ALL is BOB's fault" guy. Of course players screw things up as well. After 6 years, though, I think it's fair to question whether he's right for this team... for the simple fact we've never had a "successful" offense while he's been here.

As far as the other part of your post...why does it matter "who's making the personnel decisions"? The only reason why is b/c you're looking to place blame on someone other than the players themselves for why something isn't happening the way you think it should. Easy to criticize something from the outside when you don't have all the info.
None of us has all the info. When our team doesn't succeed, it's only natural we look for the cause. If Cal isn't looking for the cause, then we'll never improve!

BTW, I have no idea why you think I'm a "ALL is BOB's fault" guy? I think he should be replaced, but I'm not blaming everything on him.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Bro come on that 2-14 was not their true identity. The season before that they went 12-4 and 10-6 the season before that. It’s amazing to me on how you only key in on just that season.

No that line was not that much better. Much better is top 10 not top 20-20+
Their identity was running the ball with Arian Foster.................... and he only lasted for 1 season with BoB before his career was effectively over b/c of injuries. I'm not keying in on just the 1 season, i'm keying on the fact that that iteration of the team was for all intents and purposes DONE by the time BoB got here; Hell, they weren't even performing for the guy who built that team in 2013, let alone a guy who wasn't running the same system as Kubiak was.

As far as your last statement, I think DW4 would disagree with you.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
We are in agreement here. Players & coaches all share responsibility. I misinterpreted you, when you said "The players mostly determine whether the call is a success or not." It sounded like you were saying if a play fails, it's mostly on the players. I think it's an equal, shared responsibility between players & coaches.
Well that is largely how i feel b/c its the truth. Players get most of the glory when a play is made, why shouldn't they get most of the blame for when a play isn't successful?

I am not a "ALL is BOB's fault" guy. Of course players screw things up as well. After 6 years, though, I think it's fair to question whether he's right for this team... for the simple fact we've never had a "successful" offense while he's been here.
E
Depends on your definition of a "successful" offense. They've been well in the top half of the league in ppg for the last couple of years now. I would call that successful since that's what offenses are supposed to do, score as many points as possible. I think what you mean is an "explosive" offense in which case, we're not.
& Of course it's fair to question whether he's the right guy. But, it is in my experience that fans only think a HC is the right guy if he does what they want him to do......short of that.........

None of us has all the info. When our team doesn't succeed, it's only natural we look for the cause. If Cal isn't looking for the cause, then we'll never improve!

BTW, I have no idea why you think I'm a "ALL is BOB's fault" guy? I think he should be replaced, but I'm not blaming everything on him.
It's natural, but does it make sense to think in this manner when you know you don't have all the info? My bad on lumping you in the "all bob's fault" group.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
During Watson's rookie season, fans were happy with the direction of the offense and I don't think he was airing it out like KC. I think they were excited by the efficient offense, scoring, formations, motion and the execution of the offense.
During that season OB was taking advantage of Watson's natural talents and what he was good at because he didn't "Know OB's offense".
He should have left well enough alone and continued to do just that instead of trying to force that square peg into a round hole. Rather , he wants him to do just what defenses are playing him to do .... make decisions from the pocket which isn't his greatest asset.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
In 2014-2017 we had OBs hand picked Quarterbacks. So why are we classifying that as not having a quarterback
Those hand picked QB's were hand picked from the poo pile .... There just weren't any of those tier one or tier two QB's available ... They made lemonade with their lemons , at least from the QB perspective.



And I’m still wondering why it’s ok for Mahomes to hold the ball 2.8 seconds and not Watson. Oh never mind Pat had an elite line.

I think there's a lot of factors that play into Mahomes getting away with that and Watson doesn't ... Part of it is Mahomes release being much quicker , part of it is the scheme and part of it is the players around them.

Watson's as physically gifted as any QB in the game .... and so is Mahomes , but Mahomes is just a damn savant and it doesn't hurt to have Andy helping him along.

I don't think there is any argument to be had about which is the better QB .... and that's no knock on Watson - Mahomes is just that good.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Well that is largely how i feel b/c its the truth. Players get most of the glory when a play is made, why shouldn't they get most of the blame for when a play isn't successful?


E
Depends on your definition of a "successful" offense. They've been well in the top half of the league in ppg for the last couple of years now. I would call that successful since that's what offenses are supposed to do, score as many points as possible. I think what you mean is an "explosive" offense in which case, we're not.
& Of course it's fair to question whether he's the right guy. But, it is in my experience that fans only think a HC is the right guy if he does what they want him to do......short of that.........



It's natural, but does it make sense to think in this manner when you know you don't have all the info? My bad on lumping you in the "all bob's fault" group.
Umm Bill O’Brien has gotten praised a lot around here when he calls a great play design or game.

And when these players messes up they are getting called out on it as well.
 

DocBar

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
If I were drawing up an offense for Watson , about half the passing plays would have him getting outside the pocket.
His ability to take off would put so much pressure on the defense that they'd have to change how they play him.
This stand in the pocket until fit hits the shan .... is stupid.
I keep daydreaming of Watson in Kubiak's offense or, better yet, Baby Shanny's. Perfect offenses for the skill set Watson brings to the table.
Leave it to OB to try and fit a triangle through a round hole.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I keep daydreaming of Watson in Kubiak's offense or, better yet, Baby Shanny's. Perfect offenses for the skill set Watson brings to the table.
Leave it to OB to try and fit a triangle through a round hole.
You dont know this.

Accuracy is the greatest atribute in a WCO. (Montana/Schaub etc...) DW4's not known for being very accurate. (Let's not turn this into a DW4 debate.)

The WCO isn't the panacea some try to make it on this MB for all QB's.
 

DocBar

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
You dont know this.

Accuracy is the greatest atribute in a WCO. (Montana/Schaub etc...) DW4's not known for being very accurate. (Let's not turn this into a DW4 debate.)

The WCO isn't the panacea some try to make it on this MB for all QB's.
You're suggesting that a career 66.8% completion percentage isn't accurate enough for the WCO? Noodle-arm Schaub has a 64.2% career completion percentage. Montana has a 63.2% career completion percentage.
Once again, the obvious axe you have to grind clouds your judgement. The WCO, as Kubiak and Baby Shanny run it, is tailor made for the skillset Deshaun Watson brings to the table.



 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
You dont know this.

Accuracy is the greatest atribute in a WCO. (Montana/Schaub etc...) DW4's not known for being very accurate. (Let's not turn this into a DW4 debate.)
Watson's plenty accurate to excel in the WCO.

The best thing is it simplifies the decision making process for him ...


The WCO isn't the panacea some try to make it on this MB for all QB's.
Yes .... It is.
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
Is Brady too low.. just right?
Are Rodgers/Brees a little too high?
Should the reigning MVP be a Tier 1?
Is Jimmy G maybe closer to a Tier 2?
Is Carson Wentz maybe higher in the Tier 2?
Should we just name Tier 3 the Cousins Tier?

So many debate points for nfl fans besides the one that's been absolutely obliterated on this site..
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
There
You're suggesting that a career 66.8% completion percentage isn't accurate enough for the WCO? Noodle-arm Schaub has a 64.2% career completion percentage. Montana has a 63.2% career completion percentage.
Once again, the obvious axe you have to grind clouds your judgement. The WCO, as Kubiak and Baby Shanny run it, is tailor made for the skillset Deshaun Watson brings to the table.



There's a big difference between accuracy and completion percentage.
 

SnakeEyes

Waterboy
What is the difference between Watson holding onto the ball for 2.8 seconds to Mahomas holding it for the same amount of time?

To become a good pocket passer don’t these quarterbacks need pretty good protection? And should receivers be open as well as run the correct routes?
Because Mahomes is more gifted and even if he holds it too long he will still produce something most of the time. Watson is not at that level and not many are. Brady, Rogers, Brees are 3 that are smart and get rid of it or make something happen more times than not.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Because Mahomes is more gifted and even if he holds it too long he will still produce something most of the time. Watson is not at that level and not many are. Brady, Rogers, Brees are 3 that are smart and get rid of it or make something happen more times than not.
Well ok thanks for the explanation. Watson isn’t gifted enough.

I hear something new on here all the times.
 

Double Barrel

Moderator / Admin
Staff member
Contributor's Club
What the buffalo playoff game showed was that tightening up your execution improves your performance dramatically. 1st half and pretty much most of the 3rd, the defense couldn't tackle & wrap up Josh Allen or Singletary to save their lives despite being in good position most of the times, sure handed guy like Nuk were fumbling the ball & DW4 looked like he was confused & didn't know what he was seeing. Hell the ST was even screwing up but got bailed out by "common sense" lol. Late 3rd they started tackling better, DW4 was much more decisive & accurate with his throws and you saw the result. Nothing at all changed about the playcalls or the scheme.
It aint the scheme that fails...The scheme has been around for decades and is proven. its the players failing in executing the scheme...


& Up until Reid secured perhaps the best young quarterback of this generation, he was known for coming up short in big moments. Just b/c Mahomes put on a heroic effort and saved him this past year doesn't mean those playoff failures he had in years prior where his offenses got effectively shut down go away.
Well said and fair enough.

But, I would point out that schemes do fail when they are not matched with the right talent to run those schemes. Reid has a solid career to look back on, including four straight trips to the NFC title game and a SB appearance before he arrived in KC. Let's not get carried away trying to put O'Brien in the same category when he has not accomplished anything significant in 6 seasons.

There are no 100% fool-proof schemes. For instance, having Tom Brady run an option-based scheme would most likely produce failure. But, having Lamar Jackson run it, and you see an MVP performance. These players are not interchangeable, especially at the QB position.

I don't want to get too down on O'Brien. I'm not a huge fan at this point in his career, but as a Texans fan, I do want to give him yet another benefit of the doubt. New season = renewed hope and all that jazz.

I just don't believe his schemes are the best fit for Watson's skillset. JMO, obviously, and hopefully I'm wrong this season. I don't see the willingness to adapt, update, and rethink his system in order to maximize the potential talent in Watson. I see him trying to slam that square peg into a round hole. It's in his M.O.
 

Double Barrel

Moderator / Admin
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Is Brady too low.. just right?
Are Rodgers/Brees a little too high?
Should the reigning MVP be a Tier 1?
Is Jimmy G maybe closer to a Tier 2?
Is Carson Wentz maybe higher in the Tier 2?
Should we just name Tier 3 the Cousins Tier?

So many debate points for nfl fans besides the one that's been absolutely obliterated on this site..
I'd say Brady is in the right place for this point in his career. He's clearly been tier 1 for most of his career, but with age comes a diminished skillset, so I'm good with him there. I feel the exact same way about Brees, too. There were some long balls that he doesn't have the same control of that he did earlier in his career.

I think Rodgers is still tier 1. Obviously Mahomes and Russell Wilson are in the right spots.

Jackson fits the description of tier 2 as described. I think he's an amazing talent, but still has some growing to do. And I'm curious to see his transition as a passer once his running skills start to diminish (inevitable with time in the NFL, especially as defenses prepare for him).

Beyond that, I really think they did a solid job of ranking these QBs based on the criteria. I could nitpick some of the lower ranks, but a lot of that is just my perception based on recollected highlights but not watching them week in and week out. For instance, Kyler Murray that high? I'd probably put Jimmy G higher than him.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Well said and fair enough.

But, I would point out that schemes do fail when they are not matched with the right talent to run those schemes. Reid has a solid career to look back on, including four straight trips to the NFC title game and a SB appearance before he arrived in KC. Let's not get carried away trying to put O'Brien in the same category when he has not accomplished anything significant in 6 seasons.

There are no 100% fool-proof schemes. For instance, having Tom Brady run an option-based scheme would most likely produce failure. But, having Lamar Jackson run it, and you see an MVP performance. These players are not interchangeable, especially at the QB position.

I don't want to get too down on O'Brien. I'm not a huge fan at this point in his career, but as a Texans fan, I do want to give him yet another benefit of the doubt. New season = renewed hope and all that jazz.

I just don't believe his schemes are the best fit for Watson's skillset. JMO, obviously, and hopefully I'm wrong this season. I don't see the willingness to adapt, update, and rethink his system in order to maximize the potential talent in Watson. I see him trying to slam that square peg into a round hole. It's in his M.O.
What system would best fit his talents. The Clemson offense obviously would fit talents best. Or running a modified Ravens offense. You cant ask him to do the things Mahomes can do.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
What system would best fit his talents. The Clemson offense obviously would fit talents best. Or running a modified Ravens offense. You cant ask him to do the things Mahomes can do.
That Ravens offense is about as close to the WCO as you can get .... while running out of a pistol / RPO set. The concepts they run are distinctly WCO.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Let him run it then.

I dont see the same blocking scheme. But I could be wrong.
The blocking scheme doesn't define the offense in general.
You can run a power scheme or a zone scheme out of the WCO or the Coryell ... What defines it is what concepts are applied to attacking the defense.
 

banned1976

All Pro
Before “tier 1, 2, 3,” there’s tier A. As in:

A.
1. Mahomes
2. Wilson?
3. Rodgers?
There is room for debate underneath “A”. But there’s no question who letter A is...

A. Watson

As for the coaching tiers, Beli is still letter A and O’Brien falls somewhere underneath letter Z. He’s down there with the retired Jeff Fisher.

How about GM, where’s BoB? Skip waaaay down the list for Matt Millen on the all-time GM rankings and that’s where you’ll find O’Brien.
 

KoolAid Sipper

Waterboy
By the description of the Tiers, I think Dak should be in Tier 3. I also don't think the Tier 3 inclusion of "A lower-volume dropback passing offense suits him best." fits for Kyler Murray and probably not Sam Darnold.
 

DocBar

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
There

There's a big difference between accuracy and completion percentage.
I agree that there is a difference, but I don't think it's that big of one. An accurate passer will generally have a higher completion percentage than an inaccurate passer. The thing with Watson is that he has exceptional accuracy as a downfield passer, whereas Montana and Schaub used a short to intermediate range in the passing game.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I agree that there is a difference, but I don't think it's that big of one. An accurate passer will generally have a higher completion percentage than an inaccurate passer. The thing with Watson is that he has exceptional accuracy as a downfield passer, whereas Montana and Schaub used a short to intermediate range in the passing game.
Disagree with the first part. I think there's a big difference.

Montana was like Brady, he was accurate on short and long throws. Agreed about Schaub.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
What system would best fit his talents. The Clemson offense obviously would fit talents best. Or running a modified Ravens offense. You cant ask him to do the things Mahomes can do.
This offense fits him as well. Coaching just has to get better meaning stop it with these long drawn out plays and give the kid and this offense a chance. The offensive line play has to get 100% better. Not this 10% crap people tend highlight as an improvement.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
This offense fits him as well. Coaching just has to get better meaning stop it with these long drawn out plays and give the kid and this offense a chance. The offensive line play has to get 100% better. Not this 10% crap people tend highlight as an improvement.
His strength is throwing the long ball. Those plays take longer to develop and put the ol under more stress. Are you saying they shouldn't run plays that fit DW4'S strengths?
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
His strength is throwing the long ball. Those plays take longer to develop and put the ol under more stress. Are you saying they shouldn't run plays that fit DW4'S strengths?
In his rookie year he was getting the ball out almost as quick as Brady. That’s when the route concept wasn’t long and drawn out. He was very effective with the short routes. The threat of him taking off opened those things up. In New England when Brady had the personnel he went deep and was very accurate as well. When he didn’t they went with these quick routes . The Texans should have the best of both worlds. With this type of speed the intermediate routes should be killa.
 

Double Barrel

Moderator / Admin
Staff member
Contributor's Club
What system would best fit his talents. The Clemson offense obviously would fit talents best. Or running a modified Ravens offense. You cant ask him to do the things Mahomes can do.
I think Kubiak's offense would have been a great match.

With regards to Mahomes, the difference is Andy Reid's ability to adapt and implement schemes based on his available talent. He's not forcing his QBs to run his strict system, but rather uses a flexible approach to maximize the potential of his QBs. I doubt he would be forcing a Watson-type talent into a system originally learned from Tom Brady & NE.

Jimmy G would probably have been a great fit for O'Brien's system, all things considered. The inherent Texans FO disconnect is where a fundamental problem lies when the coach was unable to acquire the talent that he really coveted.
 


Top