What is Sage's value?--Sage Frustrated

[Errant Hothy]

Has anyone given thought to the possibility that the FO is trying to establish a possible offer value for if they wish to resign Sage for the long term, possibly as a starter, depending on how the upsoming season shakes out?

Sure, but if Minnesota is going to offer a 3rd or better, then Sage's contract is below what his value might be (to a team like Minnesota). If I'm the Texans I don't even think about re-working his deal now...it would only lead to an increase in his cost against the cap. If Sage and his agent feel this way, he could be a camp hold-out (mad about either the money or missing a chance to truly compete for a starting gig).

 

[Nighthawk]

Yes we do.

Of the two QBs we have right now, we don't have a definitive starter.

We have two backups who are on the verge of being a starter. Schaub was not a starting QB with years of starting experience when we traded for him. People are PRETENDING that we acquired a starter in Matt Schaub. We didn't.

We speculated that he could start. A lot of Falcons fans tried to tell us he wouldn't be mobile enough...and we sorta' laughed them off. I see a guy who played the first game and looked sharp getting away from center--crisp steps, good footwork--and then he just began to slow down and the pass rush was on him wayyyy to quickly over the next few games.

Seeing Sage come in and rescue a season that was lloking to be flushed down the drain...well, it was a relief. The whole offense seemed to pick it up a step; there was a confidence in the huddle and on the field. Granted, Sage knows the offense and the players a lot better.

If anything makes me laugh, it's the "games" we play--and the games coaches play--when the proverbial "We don't have a QB controversy" comments start rolling out. As soon as THOSE comments start rolling out, then you absolutely 100% know you have a competition going on. You don't hear the words "QB controversy" in Indy or New England...it's not even in the dictionary in those two places.

When you have to openly "deny" that there's a QB controversy...there IS one. Period.

Geesh, I'd think that Texans fans wouldn't care WHO started as long as it was the MAN who deserved to have the gig. After 5 years of David Carr, we kinda' need to let go of this pipe dream of being able to pencil in a starter and defend him to no end. You guys do realize that you're doing the same thing with Schaub that a lot of us (including ME) did with David?

Sitting around trashing people like me who just want SOMEONE to win the job and do it consistently, and therefore defending a backup QB like Schaub as if he's been a starter for years, is puzzling.

I am a Texans fan. Not a Sage fan. Not a Schaub fan. I think they shold battle it out. And I think there's a lot of truth to what the Titans' Haynesworth said when he said "I bet Sage would have liked to have seen some of that starting money!" We rolled the dice on Schaub, and I supported it when it happened, but I'm retreating on it...I don't think Schaub is the guy for the long term. I just don't. Out of the two backup QBs we have, I'd say they're pretty even in the race for the starting job right now.

8-8 is a lot better than 2-14. Kubiak and Smith are doing a great job. I'm glad we have Sage-Schaub to argue about...and not who our next HC shold be and why our GM is such a moron. Thank God THOSE days are gone.

This is the best assessment of our situation I've read on the board. "Two backups" says it best, though it probably has to be said that the edge right now goes to Sage for being able to stay healthy.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

Sure, but if Minnesota is going to offer a 3rd or better, then Sage's contract is below what his value might be (to a team like Minnesota). If I'm the Texans I don't even think about re-working his deal now...it would only lead to an increase in his cost against the cap. If Sage and his agent feel this way, he could be a camp hold-out (mad about either the money or missing a chance to truly compete for a starting gig).

Not now......you missed my point, or I didn't make myself clear........I meant in order to establish some sort of bench mark for comparison to the time nearing the END of this season if his performance deems him as winnning out at starter.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

This is the best assessment of our situation I've read on the board. "Two backups" says it best, though it probably has to be said that the edge right now goes to Sage for being able to stay healthy.

Yeah, it was really great having Sage be able to come in and take over for Carr a couple of years ago.

Oh.

Wait.

Sage was injured and we had to pick up Bradlee Van Pelt.

Nevermind.

 

[dalemurphy]

Of all the NFL fans, I would think Texan fans could appreciate depth at a position. We've had so many injuries isn't it comforting to know that we have 2 qbs that we can win with? Believe me, I'm the first guy to lust after draft picks but I also understand how miserable it is to root for a team with poor QB play. With Sage and Schaub both here until after 2009, we are fairly certain to see at least solid QB play... If you take either of those guys out of the equation, you significantly change those odds- either due to injuries, regression of ability, or other unforseeable things.

 

[Thorn]

Of all the NFL fans, I would think Texan fans could appreciate depth at a position. We've had so many injuries isn't it comforting to know that we have 2 qbs that we can win with? Believe me, I'm the first guy to lust after draft picks but I also understand how miserable it is to root for a team with poor QB play. With Sage and Schaub both here until after 2009, we are fairly certain to see at least solid QB play... If you take either of those guys out of the equation, you significantly change those odds- either due to injuries, regression of ability, or other unforseeable things.

I completely agree. I can’t possibly image the Texans trading Sage. This deal is like chopping off your hands to trade them for better feet.

 

[Errant Hothy]

I have a question for all of those who are saying that Sage is too valuable to trade.

Do y'all think that the Texans will make the playoffs next season?

Becuase history shows that teams who make the playoffs, rely on their starter to get them their, not their back-up QBs.

 

[Thorn]

I have a question for all of those who are saying that Sage is too valuable to trade.

Do y'all think that the Texans will make the playoffs next season?

Becuase history shows that teams who make the playoffs, rely on their starter to get them their, not their back-up QBs.

Good point. But until our "starter" proves himself to be a reliable starter, then we need Sage. Just the way it is right now.

 

[bah007]

I completely agree. I can’t possibly image the Texans trading Sage. This deal is like chopping off your hands to trade them for better feet.

Its closer to trading your back-up pair of hands for body parts that you dont have.

 

[Thorn]

Its closer to trading your back-up pair of hands for body parts that you dont have.

Yeah, but those backup hands……no, I better not go down that road. This is a PG13 board.

As I’ve said before, if we trade Sage it has to be multiple high picks. We have to draft a decent QB and still get value. Losing Sage is losing a proven QB that can run our offense and score points.

 

[maddogmrb]

If they had equal time against the opposing 1st team Ds, and the coaches said that Sage was the better option..I would absolutly support him.

If the FO staff said that moving Sage for a draft pick was the best move for the team, would you support the move?

Well, if we could get 2, #2's and trade spots in round one.... yes.

 

[Errant Hothy]

Well, if we could get 2, #2's and trade spots in round one.... yes.

Please stop acting like there is no difference between a career, journeyman back-up and a young back-up who has potential to be a starter.

Several NFL anylast and Front Office personnal felt that Schaub had a chance to be a very good starter in this league; none feel that way about Sage. Even the Vikings are after him for cempetition/insurance reasons for a QB who lloks completly lost at times.

 

[maddogmrb]

Yes he is. A good back up to have but Schaub is our starter. If Minnesota is trading for him to be a back up to Jackson that should close the case.

Schaub and Sage would be backups to Jackson.

ObsiWan my point is that there are always VERY few backups worth what we gave up for Schaub and I don't know of any currently in the league.

Also, with as well as Sage has played, I wouldn't be surprised if the FO would trade Schaub back to the Falcons for exactly what we gave up for him. But, I'll bet ya Atlanta won't make that deal.

 

[Errant Hothy]

Schaub and Sage would be backups to Jackson.

ObsiWan my point is that there are always VERY few backups worth what we gave up for Schaub and I don't know of any currently in the league.

Also, with as well as Sage has played, I wouldn't be surprised if the FO would trade Schaub back to the Falcons for exactly what we gave up for him. But, I'll bet ya Atlanta won't make that deal.

Off the top of my head,and going back over the last 3 seasons; these are the QBs you would need "Schaub like" pakages to get dealt from their teams:

Aaron Rodgers
Tony Romo
Kevin Kolb
David Gerrard
Dereck Anderson or Brady Quinn (whomever winds up the back-up)
Phillip Rivers
Marc Bulger
Jake Delhomme
Matt Schaub

 

[Texan in Japan]

I never thought much of Sage and found it curious when Kubiak was so happy we signed him. Our coaches and scouts have done a great job of IDing under appreciated talent and getting the most out of their abilities. While I'm not foaming at the mouth to trade Sage, I do believe that his value is at its peak.

If we could bring in someone like Quinn Gray to be the new #2, then trading Sage now might be a smart way to cash in on his value and add a possible starter. It's a gamble on Schuab's health and a new back-up's capability, but one that could gain us a CB, LB, OL, etc.

 

[GP]

Are you still lobbying for Sage as the starter.

My god, give it a break. It's like Hulk75 trying to get us to beleive that Carr doesn't suck.

No, YOU guys are lobbying for David Carr II (Schaub), not I. LOL...I have seen a lot of backpeddling around here (on this thread) whereby a lot of posters are seemingly beginning to understand that we have TWO BACKUPS...not a backup and a proven starter, as a lot of you are trying to communicate. Schaub is no more a true starter than Sage.

If anything, Sage is running circles around Schaub--But that's only because he's been around this team and knows its system and the players' capabilities within the system...the best way to maximize EVERYONE'S talents and strengths during on-field play. Maybe Schaub needed a year under the belt, maybe he needed to get the first year over and done with. But I am still seeing some other qualities in Schaub that do not make me feel comfortable with him--And "No," hearing you guys repeat this mantra of "Schaub is the starter, Schaub is the starter, Schau is the starter" does not make those fears go away. It only makes me think of this: David Carr.

So the comparison you're trying to draw between me and Hulk75 is 180-degrees out of phase--It's YOU guys who are acting as if Matt Schaub (the NEW number 8 who got the big payday) can nevvvvver be criticized or held in any other view other than a glowing report.

I just want a true, bonafide open competition for the spot. There are three things that I think need to stop happening:

1. Playcalling that looks good on the opening drive and then fizzles to absolute predictable playcalling into the half and then no adjustments for the second half. How many of you sit there in the second quarter and you see the formation, down-and-distance, field position, and you KNOW what play is coming up? Exactly. And so does a veteran defensive coordinator.

2. No more of the "Wait until round 6 or 7 to find that 'diamond-in-the-rough running back'" which Shanahan and Kubiak think they can discover and pay cheaply for. Minnesota is proof positive that a great running back can help a bad or mildly average QB.

3. Here's the most frustrating thing that needs to STOP happening: The ridiculous and consistently failing approach by this team's upper management and coaching staff to think that we can tab a guy "the starter" and then that's just suddenly a magical cure to the QB problem here.

Sage would prolly flop if he were in a different system. Is it conceivable to you guys that *possibly* Sage has found the right system and players around him to fit his style of play? All the guy did was come in and save OUR season from being a losing season. Isn't that worth an open competition for once? Or will pride and contract dollars get in the way?

We have two backups. End of story. Use the words, the semantics, and whatever else you want...we don't have a starter. This is Frye-Anderson at the moment unless we pull a huge deal and go grab another "starting" QB somehow. Boyd, IMO, is someone who is intriguing...A Gerrard type of player who is mobile, strong, and waiting his turn. He moved the ball easily against us in the preseason game of 2007 vs. Arizona.

Anywho...I will lobby for the best backup to win the starting job.

 

[bah007]

This is Frye-Anderson at the moment unless we pull a huge deal and go grab another "starting" QB somehow.

Frye-Anderson isnt exactly failing for the Browns right now.

If one of our guys is a Derek Anderson then we are in good shape.

 

[Maddict5]

Its closer to trading your back-up pair of hands for body parts that you dont have.

i have the best body part analogy:

sage = a kidney

 

[HoustonFrog]

No, YOU guys are lobbying for David Carr II (Schaub), not I. LOL...I have seen a lot of backpeddling around here (on this thread) whereby a lot of posters are seemingly beginning to understand that we have TWO BACKUPS...not a backup and a proven starter, as a lot of you are trying to communicate. Schaub is no more a true starter than Sage.

If anything, Sage is running circles around Schaub--But that's only because he's been around this team and knows its system and the players' capabilities within the system...the best way to maximize EVERYONE'S talents and strengths during on-field play. Maybe Schaub needed a year under the belt, maybe he needed to get the first year over and done with. But I am still seeing some other qualities in Schaub that do not make me feel comfortable with him--And "No," hearing you guys repeat this mantra of "Schaub is the starter, Schaub is the starter, Schau is the starter" does not make those fears go away. It only makes me think of this: David Carr.

So the comparison you're trying to draw between me and Hulk75 is 180-degrees out of phase--It's YOU guys who are acting as if Matt Schaub (the NEW number 8 who got the big payday) can nevvvvver be criticized or held in any other view other than a glowing report.

I just want a true, bonafide open competition for the spot. There are three things that I think need to stop happening:

1. Playcalling that looks good on the opening drive and then fizzles to absolute predictable playcalling into the half and then no adjustments for the second half. How many of you sit there in the second quarter and you see the formation, down-and-distance, field position, and you KNOW what play is coming up? Exactly. And so does a veteran defensive coordinator.

2. No more of the "Wait until round 6 or 7 to find that 'diamond-in-the-rough running back'" which Shanahan and Kubiak think they can discover and pay cheaply for. Minnesota is proof positive that a great running back can help a bad or mildly average QB.

3. Here's the most frustrating thing that needs to STOP happening: The ridiculous and consistently failing approach by this team's upper management and coaching staff to think that we can tab a guy "the starter" and then that's just suddenly a magical cure to the QB problem here.

Sage would prolly flop if he were in a different system. Is it conceivable to you guys that *possibly* Sage has found the right system and players around him to fit his style of play? All the guy did was come in and save OUR season from being a losing season. Isn't that worth an open competition for once? Or will pride and contract dollars get in the way?

We have two backups. End of story. Use the words, the semantics, and whatever else you want...we don't have a starter. This is Frye-Anderson at the moment unless we pull a huge deal and go grab another "starting" QB somehow. Boyd, IMO, is someone who is intriguing...A Gerrard type of player who is mobile, strong, and waiting his turn. He moved the ball easily against us in the preseason game of 2007 vs. Arizona.

Anywho...I will lobby for the best backup to win the starting job.

Sorry GP but it is statements like that where I lose all respectability regarding a post. Not only is it not true but his INTs and the way he played the last two games doesn't show it. We went around and around with each other the last 5 weeks of the season and it seemed to sink in to you what the situation was. Its like you are ignoring it now and starting all over. There is no rationale regarding many of your thoughts. Again, I nailed you 3 times in our earlier discussions trying to make up facts that didn't exist regarding other QBs like the Browns QB, etc. I refuse to go around in circles with someone who spouts phrases like above and has shown in the past that will manufacture facts.

We can save some time and FACT responses by just rereading this thread...for anyone that cares and wants to see where GP is coming from....it is Hulk75 Part Two

http://texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45232&page=3&highlight=Sage

BTW, I like Sage alot and his play at times. But he does not make a QB controversy.

 

[GP]

Please stop acting like there is no difference between a career, journeyman back-up and a young back-up who has potential to be a starter.

Several NFL anylast and Front Office personnal felt that Schaub had a chance to be a very good starter in this league; none feel that way about Sage. Even the Vikings are after him for cempetition/insurance reasons for a QB who lloks completly lost at times.

Slow down a second. Don't make me pull out the thread I created toward the end of the regular season whereby I documented two different analyst crews (IIRC) who were saying that there seems to be the case for an open competition.

They watched Schaub, off and on in a casual manner, and they saw Sage handle the team in the latter part of the season. So let's not get too far ahead of ourselves and start saying that Sage is a retard or something.

You guys have Sage Hate all over yourselves!

We have two backups, bro. No need to get in a hissy over this fact. We have a starter "in name only," but not necessarily in deed/action. There are durability issues with Schaub no matter how we explain how it happened.

May the best backup win the job, IMO. And even then...things are going to happen that might thrust one guy back into the starting role again. Its not a big deal, really. But to sit here and say that Matt Schaub has nailed down the starting spot...well, I just think we have two backups right now. And I don't know that being able to say "QB X is the starter" or "QB Y is the starter" is going to really do much, IMO.

We have two backups right now. Deal wit' it.

 

[Rex King]

i have the best body part analogy:

sage = a kidney

Who's the appendix?

 

[Maddict5]

black/jamar fletcher/petey. we dont really need them and we only talk about them when bad things happen

 

[Texans_Chick]

Pluses for Sage:

Good lockerroom guy
Good leader
Good backup, says the right things.
Creates competition for Schaub
Schaub is coming off of non-throwing arm shoulder surgery. The words "shoulder surgery" strikes fear into the hearts of all Texans fans.
He knows the system
Was able to win games last year, and when he played the offense didn't become unwatchable.
A team needs lots of good fortune to get through a season without their QB getting dinged. The Texans haven't had a lot of good fortune.
Relatively cheap contract
Why turn a strength of the team into another area that is a problem. At the end of last season had Sage got hurt, we were likely going to see some atrocious football. See e.g. Jared Zabransky pre-season.
AFC South tends to have teams that carry only two QBs on the roster so that they can put other parts of the roster on the field. Better to have two viable options if you are going that way.

Negs for Sage:

May be unhappy at being a perpetual backup and may push for trade. This is something that hasn't been said, but it is possible.
He is an interception machine, hard to say he could be a game manager
Dealing him before the draft means dealing him with value.
There are other possible QBs that know Kubiak's system--Brian Griese may end up getting cut for example.
Kubiak can learn up QBs.
The Texans have tons of needs, and draft picks have value to a team that not only needs depth but better starters.

 

[GP]

Sorry GP but it is statements like that where I lose all respectability regarding a post. Not only is it not true but his INTs and the way he played the last two games doesn't show it. We went around and around with each other the last 5 weeks of the season and it seemed to sink in to you what the situation was. Its like you are ignoring it now and starting all over. There is no rationale regarding many of your thoughts. Again, I nailed you 3 times in our earlier discussions trying to make up facts that didn't exist regarding other QBs like the Browns QB, etc. I refuse to go around in circles with someone who spouts phrases like above and has shown in the past that will manufacture facts.

We can save some time and FACT responses by just rereading this thread...for anyone that cares and wants to see where GP is coming from....it is Hulk75 Part Two

http://texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45232&page=3&highlight=Sage

Let's just do each other a favor and agree right now that we're not going to like each other...nor will we be able to get along on this.

I didn't even read your reply. I saw HoustonFrog and then I saw my post quoted in its entirety, and that's all I needed. No need to read what you wrote. You hate me. I get it.

From here on out, I will be putting my argument into this abbreviated format: We have two backups.

This will save time for all of us. We don't have a true starting QB, and saying he "is" or pointing to his contract means squat to me. Think larger than that, please. You're capable of doing the analysis and looking at the two QBs for yourself: They are both backup QBs who are about neck-and-neck with each other. We didn't acquire a starting QB...geesh, how much simpler does it get than this? We SPECULATED just like any team does when it cannot get its hand on a real franchise QB such as a Peyton Manning or a John Elway, etc.

Love you, too.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Slow down a second. Don't make me pull out the thread I created toward the end of the regular season whereby I documented two different analyst crews (IIRC) who were saying that there seems to be the case for an open competition.

They watched Schaub, off and on in a casual manner, and they saw Sage handle the team in the latter part of the season. So let's not get too far ahead of ourselves and start saying that Sage is a retard or something.

You guys have Sage Hate all over yourselves!

We have two backups, bro. No need to get in a hissy over this fact. We have a starter "in name only," but not necessarily in deed/action. There are durability issues with Schaub no matter how we explain how it happened.

May the best backup win the job, IMO. And even then...things are going to happen that might thrust one guy back into the starting role again. Its not a big deal, really. But to sit here and say that Matt Schaub has nailed down the starting spot...well, I just think we have two backups right now. And I don't know that being able to say "QB X is the starter" or "QB Y is the starter" is going to really do much, IMO.

We have two backups right now. Deal wit' it.

That is the funny part. NO ONE HATES SAGE!!

People are just being realistic about him, his playing history and where he is on our team. People know what Schaub did and they saw what Sage could andcould not do. It is random, made up, crazy assertions that drive people made. Again, reread the thread I posted on the last page. You are all over the place.

 

[ObsiWan]

We have two backup QBs trying to solidify a starting position.

One question: If Sage outplayed Schaub in the preseason, would you be behind him and support Sage as the starter in Game 1?

If Schaub outplayed Sage and won the gig...I'd be behind the starter.

Me too. I would like to think we all would.
None of us are married to Schaub the way people were married to D.C.
I think that includes Smithiak.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Let's just do each other a favor and agree right now that we're not going to like each other...nor will we be able to get along on this.

I didn't even read your reply. I saw HoustonFrog and then I saw my post quoted in its entirety, and that's all I needed. No need to read what you wrote. You hate me. I get it.

From here on out, I will be putting my argument into this abbreviated format: We have two backups.

This will save time for all of us. We don't have a true starting QB, and saying he "is" or pointing to his contract means squat to me. Think larger than that, please. You're capable of doing the analysis and looking at the two QBs for yourself: They are both backup QBs who are about neck-and-neck with each other. We didn't acquire a starting QB...geesh, how much simpler does it get than this? We SPECULATED just like any team does when it cannot get its hand on a real franchise QB such as a Peyton Manning or a John Elway, etc.

Love you, too.

LOL..I don't HATE anyone on the board. It is ridiculous to hate someone I don't know and whom I'm talking football with. I DO hate trying to debate football with someone who spouts broad statements and claims they are facts. and who has done this for months on end. I'm not saying I'm right. Not even close. I'm only saying that you are blindly closed off to the reality of the situation. Again, re-read the old thread and you will see where you were so lathered up that you privately sent me a message and yelled me down in the thread saying you never mentioned a player when you talked about him 3 pages earlier. You get worked into a frenzy and you don't read what you write. We have a good sutation here. It was bad enough with Carr. Why make a problem or a team situation where there is none?

 

[Texans_Chick]

This is the best assessment of our situation I've read on the board. "Two backups" says it best, though it probably has to be said that the edge right now goes to Sage for being able to stay healthy.

It is hard to evaluate the QB play of last season because of:

1. Schaub being in his first season with system.
2. Andre Johnson being out a large portion of the year.
3. The Texans' running game being ridiciously unreliable.

There's pluses and minuses to their particular abilities that you can go into, but I think particularly as it relates to Schaub, I think you have to have an incomplete for evaluation purposes.

 

[GP]

Pluses for Sage:

Good lockerroom guy
Good leader
Good backup, says the right things.
Creates competition for Schaub
Schaub is coming off of non-throwing arm shoulder surgery. The words "shoulder surgery" strikes fear into the hearts of all Texans fans.
He knows the system
Was able to win games last year, and when he played the offense didn't become unwatchable.
A team needs lots of good fortune to get through a season without their QB getting dinged. The Texans haven't had a lot of good fortune.
Relatively cheap contract
Why turn a strength of the team into another area that is a problem. At the end of last season had Sage got hurt, we were likely going to see some atrocious football. See e.g. Jared Zabransky pre-season.
AFC South tends to have teams that carry only two QBs on the roster so that they can put other parts of the roster on the field. Better to have two viable options if you are going that way.

Negs for Sage:

May be unhappy at being a perpetual backup and may push for trade. This is something that hasn't been said, but it is possible.
He is an interception machine, hard to say he could be a game manager
Dealing him before the draft means dealing him with value.
There are other possible QBs that know Kubiak's system--Brian Griese may end up getting cut for example.
Kubiak can learn up QBs.
The Texans have tons of needs, and draft picks have value to a team that not only needs depth but better starters.

I thought I remember at the end of the season that Sage and/or his agent said that he was verrrry OK with staying in Houston? I wish I could remember if it was Sage in a postgame interview on the field, still suited up after a win, or if it was something someone dug up in a media interview or radio show that Sage or his agent had done...

If I'm Sage...I see (1) a wobbly Matt Schaub on the bench most of the season, and (2) I'm not hurting anywhere, and (3) I might get a shot at sticking around in a familiar atmosphere AND win the starting gig. But that's just me. Maybe Sage would seek a trade?

How many times did you see Sage instructing Schaub on the sideline, going over the notes and photos, and Schaub absorbig it all? That's due to Sage being here longer, and the guy is known for being very cerebral. And how many times have you seen Kubiak and Sage in an animated discussion on the sideline where you can see Sage motioning with his hands as he explains what he's seeing on the field?

I can say that Schaub might be able to turn the corner this next season, but I am only at about a 50% on it right now. And I don't know that Sage is the true starter either. But as we go into training camp, the thing that bothers me is that training camp tends to reward the guy who is a workout warrior (David Carr, for example) because he doesn't have guys trying to KILL HIM on every snap.

Once again, for convenience: We have two backup QBs.

 

[GP]

LOL..I don't HATE anyone on the board. It is ridiculous to hate someone I don't know and whom I'm talking football with. I DO hate trying to debate footnball with someone who spouts nonsense and who has done this for months on end. I'm nto saying I'm right. Not even close. I'm only saying that you are blindly closed off to the reality of the situation. Again, re-read the old thread and you will see where you were so lathered up that you privately sent me a message and yelled me down in the thread saying you never mentioned a player when you talked about him 3 pages earlier. You get worked into a frenzy and you don't read what you write. We have a good sutation here. It was bad enough with Carr. Why make a problem or a team situation where there is none?

I admitted my mistake, but feel free to crucify me over and over for it. I usually do my homework, but I did slip on that particular situation. So sue me.

There is no "reality" to this debate because (drum roll, please...) we have two backup QBs. We can't, just by virtue, say "Well, Kubiak 'says' that Schaub is the starter, and Schaub 'is' making the big bucks...so, Schaub is the starter..."

Saying "QB X is the starter" is like saying whomever wins the pole at Daytona is always going to win the race in the end. It's a fluid situation, and I bet a HC like Kubiak (hopefully) is smart enough to go with the hot hand no matter who the starter might be.

My ire is raised when we go David Carr II and try to presume that whomever is "the starter" is just that: The Starter. I learned my lesson with how long I stuck with David Carr, trying to will him to be the QB I thought he was. Nowadays, I don't think we have a real starter.

We just have this: Two backups.

Does Sage become a true starter and play like it? Prolly not.

Does Schaub? You can say he has more upside because he hasn't been a journeyman QB like Sage has. I "get that." But I am in no way comforted with some mechanical things I see in Schaub, nor am I encouraged by his fragility.

 

[Rex King]

Nevermind. Already said.

 

[drewmar74]

Dealing him before the draft means dealing him with value.
There are other possible QBs that know Kubiak's system--Brian Griese may end up getting cut for example.
Kubiak can learn up QBs.
The Texans have tons of needs, and draft picks have value to a team that not only needs depth but better starters.

And I just cannot find a way to disagree with this.

I don't have complete confidence in Schaub yet. I'm hoping that this year is better than last, but right now the jury is still out where I'm concerned which means I think there is no way that we don't have a solid backup. It would be utter stupidity to enter the season with Schaub and someone like Bradlee Van Pelt behind him.

But we do need help in a lot of areas. If we could trade Sage (which I would hate to do because I really pull for the guy) and get a second round pick and then go sign Brian Griese, well, I'd pull the trigger on that in a heartbeat.

If we can trade him and get another backup (again, Griese comes immediately to mind) who can come in and manage a game, well, let Sage go. We could use the help in other areas and heck, he might even do well starting for someone else.

 

[Goldensilence]

I thought I remember at the end of the season that Sage and/or his agent said that he was verrrry OK with staying in Houston? I wish I could remember if it was Sage in a postgame interview on the field, still suited up after a win, or if it was something someone dug up in a media interview or radio show that Sage or his agent had done...

If I'm Sage...I see (1) a wobbly Matt Schaub on the bench most of the season, and (2) I'm not hurting anywhere, and (3) I might get a shot at sticking around in a familiar atmosphere AND win the starting gig. But that's just me. Maybe Sage would seek a trade?

How many times did you see Sage instructing Schaub on the sideline, going over the notes and photos, and Schaub absorbig it all? That's due to Sage being here longer, and the guy is known for being very cerebral. And how many times have you seen Kubiak and Sage in an animated discussion on the sideline where you can see Sage motioning with his hands as he explains what he's seeing on the field?

I can say that Schaub might be able to turn the corner this next season, but I am only at about a 50% on it right now. And I don't know that Sage is the true starter either. But as we go into training camp, the thing that bothers me is that training camp tends to reward the guy who is a workout warrior (David Carr, for example) because he doesn't have guys trying to KILL HIM on every snap.

Once again, for convenience: We have two backup QBs.

GP have you convienently forgotten his stints in D.C. and Miami? Or the greater # of INTS in more playing time?

No one here is busting your chops on your opinion about Sage. But at the same time i hear the Chris Chandler comparisons people should also be willing to say Cody Carlson.

Funny I don't see two back up Qbs. I see a starter and a backup. I don't see a Rich Gannon, Matt Hasselbeck, or heck even a Derek Anderson in Sage Rosenfels.

 

[steelbtexan]

GP

I like Sage but if I could trade him for a draft pick that could help us land Litto Sheppard I would do it. Sheppard is 26 years old & a former all-pro.

IMO this is a good return on the investment that is Sage.

I didn't know that you were a DC- HULK supporter. This speaks volumes to me. You do have the right to your opinion though.

Thankfully KUBES has the right to his opinion & it's the one that counts.

If KUBES thinks keeping Sage is the way to go he will keep him. If KUBES thinks trading him is the way to go thats, what he will do.
Either way is fine with me. I'm glad he's making that dcision & not you or HULK75.

 

[HoustonFrog]

I admitted my mistake, but feel free to crucify me over and over for it. I usually do my homework, but I did slip on that particular situation. So sue me.

There is no "reality" to this debate because (drum roll, please...) we have two backup QBs. We can't, just by virtue, say "Well, Kubiak 'says' that Schaub is the starter, and Schaub 'is' making the big bucks...so, Schaub is the starter..."

Saying "QB X is the starter" is like saying whomever wins the pole at Daytona is always going to win the race in the end. It's a fluid situation, and I bet a HC like Kubiak (hopefully) is smart enough to go with the hot hand no matter who the starter might be.

My ire is raised when we go David Carr II and try to presume that whomever is "the starter" is just that: The Starter. I learned my lesson with how long I stuck with David Carr, trying to will him to be the QB I thought he was. Nowadays, I don't think we have a real starter.

We just have this: Two backups.

Does Sage become a true starter and play like it? Prolly not.

Does Schaub? You can say he has more upside because he hasn't been a journeyman QB like Sage has. I "get that." But I am in no way comforted with some mechanical things I see in Schaub, nor am I encouraged by his fragility.

Well you are getting closer but you are still making sweeping generalizations that aren't true. Schaub is the starter and he is not a backup at this time. Sage is and always has been. Schaub looked good last year but gets an incomplete because of no AJ and the injuries. I'm not going to rewrite a whole thread again but if you look at the old thread again I think I laid out the stats on page 4, etc.

http://texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45232&page=3&highlight=Sage

BTW, the reason why your chops are being busted is because of the above thread and what was contained in it and the repeat of it here. It wasn't just one mistake..just did throughout the thread and ignored the stats. We made strides last year. We have a level team that is improving. We got rid of a guy, Carr, that brought about massive opinions and split a team. We finally have things going our way and people are now hearing the same bandwagon type calls and see threads about controversy. Why make controversy where there is none?

Phrases attributed to you like:

Seeing Sage come in and rescue a season that was lloking to be flushed down the drain...well, it was a relief. The whole offense seemed to pick it up a step; there was a confidence in the huddle and on the field. Granted, Sage knows the offense and the players a lot better.

No, YOU guys are lobbying for David Carr II (Schaub),

If anything, Sage is running circles around Schaub

They are not only blatantly false but they have zero merit. How can anyone debate phrases like that...or who would try?That is what makes it hard. Again, not hate, we all have differenting opinions. Its what makes it fun. But it is hard to debtae when you read things like above.

 

[GP]

GP

I like Sage but if I could trade him for a draft pick that could help us land Litto Sheppard I would do it. Sheppard is 26 years old & a former all-pro.

IMO this is a good return on the investment that is Sage.

I didn't know that you were a DC- HULK supporter. This speaks volumes to me. You do have the right to your opinion though.

Thankfully KUBES has the right to his opinion & it's the one that counts.

If KUBES thinks keeping Sage is the way to go he will keep him. If KUBES thinks trading him is the way to go thats, what he will do.
Either way is fine with me. I'm glad he's making that dcision & not you or HULK75.

Let me give you some background:

1. We had Dom Capers at HC, and the whole team looked bad.

2. David Carr had a game vs. Arizona where he was allowed to call the plays and lead the team. We won the game and the team looked better. I felt that maybe David was just placed in a bad situation, and that he needed at least the first season with Kubiak to be judged more fairly.

3. Second Honeymoon (a poster here) was a guy who ragged me very hard for sticking by Carr. There were a few posters here, such as Vinny, who also said that David was not "starter material." I held onto the Carr Wagon until roughly halfway through the 1st season under Kubiak. And then, it was clear that I was definitely wrong in my assumption.

4. Amid all of this, Hulk75 was arguably losing his sanity and was flaming everyone on the board, even me. I can show you some Private Messages from Hulk75 to me, and some from me to Hulk75, where you will see that I basically broke away and told him that he was nuts and not able to make sense on the topic because David was his brother. He continued to shred me on the boards, and I was done with it.

It's hard to sit here and say that I supported David Carr until almost the very end. Nobody wants to ever appear vulnerable like this...to say "I was wrong," but I am able to do it. It's part of the fun.

And here I am: Saying that I think we once again have a situation where people are propping up our "starter" as if he's golden and untouchable.

Seems a lot like the previous situation. If we could combine David's durability with Matt's brain...we'd be set. But we can't.

Thank you for at least saying "GP, it's your opinion..."

 

[GP]

Frog:

1. Without Sage...if we had Van Pelt or Zabransky...we wouldn't have finished 8-8. So my opinion is that Sage DID rescue the season and at least handle things enough to get us to 8-8.

2. Sage, in my opinion, DID run circles around Schaub. Remember the bad pass to AJ in the back of the end zone in the Carolina game and Schaub told Kubiak "I'll never do that again?" Well...flash forward to San Diego where Schaud did it TWICE. I know Sage is known as an interception machine, but where is the credit for almost rallying us past Tennessee when things looked bad? It was a product of Titans prevent defense? Maybe. But I see Sage as a guy who knows our system better, knows our players better, and he has--in my opinion--been able to do more with less. Isn't it a FACT that we had more injuries to the oline after Schaub went down? I'm fairly sure that we had shuffled the oline quite a bit when Sage was in there.

3. Making me out to be the one who is causing division amongst the troops, when we "have so much going for us right now" is absurd. You're just flat out using hyperbole now. You can't fool a Public Relations and Advertising degree holder...I see what you're doing from a mile away!

Look, you're finally talking to me like I'm a human now. Thank you. But none of what we discuss here is going to impact the team. This is an opinion board and it's about as relevant to the success of the team as a small time Star Trek covention in Wapauga, Illinois is to the success of the Star Trek brand name.

Convict me in your mind all you want. LOL. I just can feel that Schaub is not the answer, and I think it'll be settled soon.

BTW, I do not idolize Sage. Even for a Round 2 compensation, I don't think we can trade away Sage unless there's a viable backup waiting in the wings. The fact that we're even considering trading Sage makes me hope that we DO have a viable backup on the radar somewhere--Not a draft pick in this year's draft, but an actual backup with some gametime under his belt. We need Sage as much as anything else right now.

 

[Thorn]

Neither Sage nor Schaub have played all 16 games as a starter in an entire season yet.

Both Sage and Schaub have had injuries.

Both Sage and Schaub are proven backups than can come in and help the team.

As of yet, neither Sage nor Schaub has proven they are a bona fide starter.

NFL pundits say Schaub has what it takes, not so many say that about Sage.

Both have won games for us.

Schaub is the starter and Sage is not and we can argue about that until the cows come home, but it doesn't change anything.

Anything I’ve left out?

Schaub may be the real deal, but he hasn't proven it yet. Until he does, I think we should hang on to Sage.

 

[ObsiWan]

Pluses for Sage:

Good lockerroom guy
Good leader
Good backup, says the right things.
Creates competition for Schaub
Schaub is coming off of non-throwing arm shoulder surgery. The words "shoulder surgery" strikes fear into the hearts of all Texans fans.
He knows the system
Was able to win games last year, and when he played the offense didn't become unwatchable.
A team needs lots of good fortune to get through a season without their QB getting dinged. The Texans haven't had a lot of good fortune.
Relatively cheap contract
Why turn a strength of the team into another area that is a problem. At the end of last season had Sage got hurt, we were likely going to see some atrocious football. See e.g. Jared Zabransky pre-season.
AFC South tends to have teams that carry only two QBs on the roster so that they can put other parts of the roster on the field. Better to have two viable options if you are going that way.

Negs for Sage:

May be unhappy at being a perpetual backup and may push for trade. This is something that hasn't been said, but it is possible.
He is an interception machine, hard to say he could be a game manager
Dealing him before the draft means dealing him with value.
There are other possible QBs that know Kubiak's system--Brian Griese may end up getting cut for example.
Kubiak can learn up QBs.
The Texans have tons of needs, and draft picks have value to a team that not only needs depth but better starters.

That's the key point here. We're better off, QB-wise, than we've ever been.

Unless someone is offering the farm for Sage then why screw with that??

Think about this. Minnesota has NINE picks this year. They are well under the cap. And they have a star-quality, two-headed running game.
Yet all they offered was a #3 pick. Minnesota offering one of their TWO rd 3 picks seems more like them tossing us a bone than them making a legit, good-faith offer.
They could have done much better. In my mind, they were trying to play us.
And some of you would have gone for it.

And TC, I think Sage being unhappy about being a backup is a good thing. There are two ways to remedy that situation: (1) Whine about it and ask to be traded. OR (2) Outplay the starter and earn the #1 job.

I'd like to think if Sage outplays Matt, then Sage will start.

 

[Rex King]

2. Sage, in my opinion, DID run circles around Schaub. Remember the bad pass to AJ in the back of the end zone in the Carolina game and Schaub told Kubiak "I'll never do that again?" Well...flash forward to San Diego where Schaud did it TWICE. I know Sage is known as an interception machine, but where is the credit for almost rallying us past Tennessee when things looked bad? It was a product of Titans prevent defense? Maybe. But I see Sage as a guy who knows our system better, knows our players better, and he has--in my opinion--been able to do more with less.

You're conveniently forgetting:

Against the Bucs, Sage hung onto the ball too long and fumbled. Last game he forced a throw into triple coverage that resulted in the Broncos' only TD. Even his incredible 4th quarter performance against the Tacks was necessitated by his earlier errors that resulted in 9 points, which could have easily been more. At least two of Schaub's interceptions weren't really his fault.

Isn't it a FACT that we had more injuries to the oline after Schaub went down? I'm fairly sure that we had shuffled the oline quite a bit when Sage was in there.

No. THE key injury was to McKinney and for all practical purposes Ahman Green in the 3rd game. The running game went downhill from there. Losing AJ didn't help Schaub either.

 

[The1ApplePie]

Apparently Schaub couldn't take a hit in college either.

I think he has the tools to be great, but if he can't stay on the field, they don't do much good.

If Sage leaves, then the pick will be used on a second tier QB, like Ainge, Booty, or Brennan

 

[Thorn]

I think he has the tools to be great, but if he can't stay on the field, they don't do much good.

Exactly. I guess we’ll find out this season.

If Sage leaves, then the pick will be used on a second tier QB, like Ainge, Booty, or Brennan

I hope Sage doesn’t leave, but if he does, one pick is not good enough for me. I don’t care what anybody says, Sage is very important to this team. Until Schaub proves he can stand up and play, and not get injured, we need Sage.

 

[bah007]

I hope Sage doesn’t leave, but if he does, one pick is not good enough for me. I don’t care what anybody says, Sage is very important to this team. Until Schaub proves he can stand up and play, and not get injured, we need Sage.

Agreed. It would have to be a 2nd plus another pick in the 3-5 range to get it done.

 

[HJam72]

I hope Sage doesn’t leave, but if he does, one pick is not good enough for me. I don’t care what anybody says, Sage is very important to this team. Until Schaub proves he can stand up and play, and not get injured, we need Sage.

I tend to agree with all of that too.

 

[Texanmike02]

No, YOU guys are lobbying for David Carr II (Schaub), not I. LOL...I have seen a lot of backpeddling around here (on this thread) whereby a lot of posters are seemingly beginning to understand that we have TWO BACKUPS...not a backup and a proven starter, as a lot of you are trying to communicate. Schaub is no more a true starter than Sage.

If anything, Sage is running circles around Schaub--But that's only because he's been around this team and knows its system and the players' capabilities within the system...the best way to maximize EVERYONE'S talents and strengths during on-field play. Maybe Schaub needed a year under the belt, maybe he needed to get the first year over and done with. But I am still seeing some other qualities in Schaub that do not make me feel comfortable with him--And "No," hearing you guys repeat this mantra of "Schaub is the starter, Schaub is the starter, Schau is the starter" does not make those fears go away. It only makes me think of this: David Carr.

So the comparison you're trying to draw between me and Hulk75 is 180-degrees out of phase--It's YOU guys who are acting as if Matt Schaub (the NEW number 8 who got the big payday) can nevvvvver be criticized or held in any other view other than a glowing report.

I just want a true, bonafide open competition for the spot. There are three things that I think need to stop happening:

1. Playcalling that looks good on the opening drive and then fizzles to absolute predictable playcalling into the half and then no adjustments for the second half. How many of you sit there in the second quarter and you see the formation, down-and-distance, field position, and you KNOW what play is coming up? Exactly. And so does a veteran defensive coordinator.

2. No more of the "Wait until round 6 or 7 to find that 'diamond-in-the-rough running back'" which Shanahan and Kubiak think they can discover and pay cheaply for. Minnesota is proof positive that a great running back can help a bad or mildly average QB.

3. Here's the most frustrating thing that needs to STOP happening: The ridiculous and consistently failing approach by this team's upper management and coaching staff to think that we can tab a guy "the starter" and then that's just suddenly a magical cure to the QB problem here.

Sage would prolly flop if he were in a different system. Is it conceivable to you guys that *possibly* Sage has found the right system and players around him to fit his style of play? All the guy did was come in and save OUR season from being a losing season. Isn't that worth an open competition for once? Or will pride and contract dollars get in the way?

We have two backups. End of story. Use the words, the semantics, and whatever else you want...we don't have a starter. This is Frye-Anderson at the moment unless we pull a huge deal and go grab another "starting" QB somehow. Boyd, IMO, is someone who is intriguing...A Gerrard type of player who is mobile, strong, and waiting his turn. He moved the ball easily against us in the preseason game of 2007 vs. Arizona.

Anywho...I will lobby for the best backup to win the starting job.

I'm not backpeddling. And I'm not saying Schaub is above reproach. I'm saying Schaub is a young guy waiting for his shot. Sage is what he is. And despite what many here think... the guy didn't play that well last year. He has never played that well. He's a GOOD backup. That's his ceiling. Schaub's is unknown. I don't know what he's capable of. But I do know that if the best we can expect next year is another performance like we got last year from BOTH of our QBs... there will be no playoffs.

Mike

 

[Joe Texan]

I did a thing with the numbers for the last 10 years (prior to this season) and it was astonishing the number of QB's that missed fewer than 2 games to make the playoffs vs those that started 14 or fewer. I'll look and see if I can find it... or I'll do it again.

So we are just satisfied with Schaub, He can make 9 games but he will be down for 7 so we will be mediokre again, Sorry I do not buy the coaches trusting Matt to go for the distance and do not think they are nieve enough to let Sage go. When you have a situation like we have it is unique. Everybody just has first of the season jumpers, I see good things starting for the Texans so I am gonna ride it out. Come on Draft.

 

[edo783]

If Sage is that good of a backup, why not extend him with a pay raise? That way we protect our selves. I know picks are of value, but so is stability and solid play at the most important spot on the team.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Frog:

1. Without Sage...if we had Van Pelt or Zabransky...we wouldn't have finished 8-8. So my opinion is that Sage DID rescue the season and at least handle things enough to get us to 8-8.

2. Sage, in my opinion, DID run circles around Schaub. Remember the bad pass to AJ in the back of the end zone in the Carolina game and Schaub told Kubiak "I'll never do that again?" Well...flash forward to San Diego where Schaud did it TWICE. I know Sage is known as an interception machine, but where is the credit for almost rallying us past Tennessee when things looked bad? It was a product of Titans prevent defense? Maybe. But I see Sage as a guy who knows our system better, knows our players better, and he has--in my opinion--been able to do more with less. Isn't it a FACT that we had more injuries to the oline after Schaub went down? I'm fairly sure that we had shuffled the oline quite a bit when Sage was in there.

3. Making me out to be the one who is causing division amongst the troops, when we "have so much going for us right now" is absurd. You're just flat out using hyperbole now. You can't fool a Public Relations and Advertising degree holder...I see what you're doing from a mile away!

Look, you're finally talking to me like I'm a human now. Thank you. But none of what we discuss here is going to impact the team. This is an opinion board and it's about as relevant to the success of the team as a small time Star Trek covention in Wapauga, Illinois is to the success of the Star Trek brand name.

Convict me in your mind all you want. LOL. I just can feel that Schaub is not the answer, and I think it'll be settled soon.

BTW, I do not idolize Sage. Even for a Round 2 compensation, I don't think we can trade away Sage unless there's a viable backup waiting in the wings. The fact that we're even considering trading Sage makes me hope that we DO have a viable backup on the radar somewhere--Not a draft pick in this year's draft, but an actual backup with some gametime under his belt. We need Sage as much as anything else right now.

1) If we didn't have Sage I doubt those 2 would have been our backups. They were 3rd stringers or less and didn't even make the team. Again, put things in perspective.

2) As many people have reminded you over and over..do you remember why we had to comeback against the Titans?Sages INTS. He basically put us in the hole that he tried to dig us out of. How is that special?SERIOUSLY?

Here is the post from the old thread where I responded to you

Let me give you a little refresher since you claim your not a stats guy yet you just try to throw out bad games and have amnesia on other ones that weren't won...Schaub...80% after AJ went out in the Indy loss!!..how are those first three games and EFFICIENCY. His "horrible game v Atlanta he was 70% and over 300 yards with no ints. He lost a fumble. This is the same stuff Sage does and in many cases less turnovers and better percentages. Also, when your top weapon is out, the red zone shrinks. Everyone knows this. He was 3-1 with AJ. Our sack total is one of the tops in the league. Through half of the season Schaub was ranked in the Top 10 in 7 QB categories. You keep saying I'm not spelling things out but your arguments hold no weight. I showed you a stat on our sack total and what NFL execs are seeing of the guy in the pocket..along with many of us..and you come right back with an argument that he can't get throws off and is too slow in the pocket. How does that work?

KC--(W)-16 of 22 (72.7), 225 yds, 1 TD, 1 int
Car--(W)-20 of 28 (71.4), 227 yds, 2 TDs, 0 int
Indy(L)--27 of 33 (81.8), 236 yds, 1 TD, 2 int
Atl(L)--28 of 40 (70), 317 yds, 1 TD, 0 int
Miami(W) 20 of 34 (58.8) 294 0 TD 1 int

I will keep going if you want.....because there are only 1 or 2 truly bad games out of 11, yet people are turning a blind eye..ok, I will..almost all of these games above abnd below are similar if not better to the stats you are saying made Champ Bailey look like a chump and "picking apart defenses."

Jax(L) 19 of 31 (61.3) 259 yds 0 Tds 1 int
Tenn(L) 5 of 9 (55.6), 23 yds, 0 and 0 (knowcked out..Sage comes in with 4 TOs and then leads us back)
S.D-(L and a truly bad game) 11 of 18 (61.1), 77 yds, 0 TD, 2 ints
Out Two Games
N.O.--21 of 33 (63.6) 293 yds 2 TDs 0 ints
CLE-(allegedly horrible game but actually not bad besides 2 picks)
22 of 36 (61.1) 256 yds 2 tds 2 ints
Tenn--3 of 5 (60), 34 yds, 0 and 0

3) No clue what that meant at all. You were someone that sat here yelling people down and banging your drum for Carr despite why me and many others told you years ago and now you are doing the same for Sage and against Schaub..."Carr II(which is plain inane)

Sage has always been a backup. Despite TDs and yards he still kept took things the wrong way with the INTs and inconsistent play. No matter how hard you try he will not be a starter no matter what Schaub does. There will be another to come in if he fails and Sage will still be the backup. It is what he does best...and not all the time.

I really like both guys but I see much more upside in Schaub if the team can stay intact around him and he gets a second year in the system.

 

[ATXtexanfan]

schaub has more upside that sage, trade sage for multiple picks

 

[drewmar74]

Why not trade Schaub to Atlanta for this year's and next year's second round picks?

Then, trade Sage Rosenfels to Minnesota for a third round pick, then bundle that third round pick and next year's second round from Atlanta to Tampa Bay for Chris Simms.

So, now we've got Chris Simms who is a left handed QB. Now we don't need a blue chip LT because our RT, Winston, becomes the blindside protector by default. We draft a RT quality tackle in the draft and put him at LT.

Sign Brian Griese to back up Simms on a cheap free agent deal and we get all of our picks back and don't need a blue chip LT.

Problem solved.

You're welcome, Rick Smith.