Vinny
shiny happy fan
ok, then I'll credit magic beans. If you can't see reality, we may as well work in the magic bean angle.
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Adam Schefter reports Carr will not be leaving Houston
- Thread starter Texans Pride
- Start date
kbourda
Veteran
You should have let it go.
I think we all can agree that the QB position in football is the most criticized position in all of sports:
"Travis Henry had more rushing yards than Youngs passing yarrds and just as many rushing Touch Downs as Young had passing Touch Downs in his third start against Washington." Win
"David Carr won it for the Titans in the first meeting." Win
"The Titan D beat the Jags with Young's outstanding 85 yards for the game." Win
The point is the QB gets the credit and blame for wins and losses. Have you ever heard anyone say the Colts have a monkey on their backs? I didn't think so. "Marino couldn't win the big one"..... Sound familiar? It goes with the territory. I respect the player that Vince is but to flat out say he was the reason for some of the wins the Titans got would be crazy. He is the QB on record for the Titans. Love it or Hate it, the Titans made huge strides when he took the reigns. Coincidence? Who knows. Luck or Skill? Maybe. But take it for what it's worth. Do you feel that we as Texans fans would be saying anything different if we were to have similar success at the QB position?
GP
Go Texans!
How feasible is it to retain a 6th-year QB (Carr) and have him watch from the sidelines?
I don't think so.
The time for that was in years one and two...and maybe three (like Steve McNair). That time has long since passed, TK.
It looks mentally-challenged to have David Carr holding the clip-board on the sideline in his sixth year. Plummer isn't putting up with that sort of spoon-feeding, debasing action...he wants to be the MAN or get the heck out of the league altogether IMO.
I don't see DC taking this sort of sidelining as you say you can envision or that you desire. He'll be here as the starter, or he will want out. Nothing else. It's in their nature. They don't go against it. Ever.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
We were nearly there in 2004 at 7-9 With DC so 0.500 is within reach if were basing competing on your definition. What has changed since then: let me think, Sharper,glenn,walker all gone. We followed that up with yet another garbage draft/free agency from C & C & the next year, suffered our worst losing (lol) season. Coincidence? I think not.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
maybe I think Dan was a better QB because Pastorini could read a defense and hit his secondary wr...or who's to say any average QB can't win with a killer O-line and a hall of fame RB? I mean, is that what it is going to take for Carr go be successful? If so, stop paying him like a franchise QB and start paying him like a journeyman. There is a cap and if you pay an average QB like a superstar your team won't be a very good one most of the time.
Yep, they really needed to kick that "worthless scrub" out @ QB. That same scrub QB who DID take his team into the playoffs (losing to the eventual SB winner). The same one who sat out the Pro Bowl and allowed VY to go.
Was VY really an upgrade over McNair? c'mon now...
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
First...yes I would say winning half of the games you play is the start of competing. Second...2004 was quite awhile ago so us being 7-9 then doesn't really mean anything to me when I look at next season for us. Third...I dont really get what your saying. What's your overall point?
Vinny
shiny happy fan
Well, I guess you haven't figured it out yet...McNair is at the end of his career....he wasn't all that impressive last year. Cue up a game sometime....it should help. Yeah, most of the NFL thinks that Young will be an upgrade long term...well, except for Houston fans.
TEXANRED
Texan-American
Other than AJ, Ryans, DRob, Weaver, Williams, who would you catogorize as starting NFL material?
kbourda
Veteran
Let me correct you a bit there V., and former Texan management!
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
that by your definition of competing which is 8-8, in which DC was our starting QB in 2004 we were 7-9, it shouldn't be a complete stretch to say that with a little more talent, we can compete with DC at the helm then right?
R
real
Guest
With a little more talent the Bears could have won the superbowl right ?
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Yep, of course the bears had everything else in place to at least make it there, it didn't start & end with Rex.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Well what is your definition of starting NFL material. There's plenty of guys who can start but may not make plays or may give up big pays. Is your definition of a starter a guy who can shut down the guy in front of them (on defense)...or beat the guy in front of them (on offense)? Or is that your definition of a star? I think if we add a few new guys on both sides of the ball we can be competitive. Sure we don't have players at each position that you will feel completely comfortable with but most teams do.
You guys don't look at it how you should. You can't say OK let's look at the roster and see who I think is starting material. You can have players that may not be YOUR definition of starting material but have a good connection with their teamates and play decent enough to not be a liability. Players play different with different players.
Our defensive unit was playing pretty together at the end of the year. There are ALOT of guys on that unit that aren't "starting material" but that doesn't keep them from playing well enough to not be a liability. Sure there are some liabilities but understand that I am talking in general.
A couple new starters on each side of the ball and we are competing. Especially if we can get a new QB.
R
real
Guest
The point is that you can say that about every team in the NFL not named the Colts.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Sure...you are right...but I am not just trying to compete. The only reason I use that word is because I am continuing a conversation where I responded to someone else using the word (saying we are years away from competing). And my original point was that we are not years away from competing.
Exactly. There are many fans who think David should leave the Texans. They base it on his play, the team situation, or other reality based facts. They don't make up things. People lose credibility when they do that.
TEXANRED
Texan-American
My definition of people who can play:
WR's who can get some sort of separation and decent rout running skills.
RB's who average more than 2.8 yards per carry
O-Lineman who don't resemble the turnstiles at Disney World.
FB's who don't fumble the football and cost you two games in a row
D-lineman who don't play Matadore with opposing RB's and who think sacks are something at a grocery store and prevent the O-line from throwing a sattle on our LB's and ride them like a horse.
OLB's who can cover a TE, stop the run, and not play patty cake with the OL.
CB's who show some sort of embarressment when they get burned 85 yards, not once, but twice. CB's who can run and not trip on there own feet would be nice too.
Safeties who understand what there assignments are.
The guys we have playing are not even close to being average. I can deal with average, average means you have a chance. I would love to be average right now but we are not even close.
After this draft we may obtain average status and then hopefully upgrade to decent the following year.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Bingo
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
I think his point is more that it is obvious that if a team adds talent they have more of a chance to win.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Add QB to that list.
How close were we to a winning record WITH all those holes? It's kinda crazy to say we're a couple of years away when we almost got there this past season. It's like saying we're not going to be competitive unless we're perfect. No team is perfect.
R
real
Guest
Pretty much.
If any team in the NFL has more talent...tada.....they are a better team....
R
real
Guest
It was you all who made it seem so cut and dry...
Don't you think everyone's goal is to get more talent on their roster ?
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Maybe some of you should ask yourself that...you guys are the ones that don't seem to understand his point.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Our WRs run their routes fine...maybe having a QB who can actually see open receivers would help. Our RBs ran fine at the end of the year. Yes our D-line and O-line need help and we've drafted guys for both the d-line and o-line last year so we are obviously addressing it. Orr played bad Greenwood had a pretty good season. Yes we have a problem at both corner and safety.
You have said absolutely nothing here. Again we need to add some players on both sides of the ball and we will be able to compete. Your problem is that you think you need a star at every position to be happy with your team...you dont understand that everyteam must have roleplayers.
P.S. what is the difference in decent and average? Please tell me.
and P.S. again: If you cannot see a difference in our play in the beginning of the year and the end of the year you obviously need to look over last year again.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
For you guys who don't understand what a player with grit can do for a team ... Kirk Gibson won the National League MVP batting 290 / 25 hrs / 76 rbis. Helping the Dodgers win a World Series .
He also won a World Series with Detroit . He took Goose Gossage deep to break the Padres back in the series .
How can a guy with OK stats be such a pivotal player .... he is tough as boot leather .
He also won a World Series with Detroit . He took Goose Gossage deep to break the Padres back in the series .
How can a guy with OK stats be such a pivotal player .... he is tough as boot leather .
R
real
Guest
It's like they are making the assumption that We are the ONLY team that is going to try and get better...
Like the leauge is going to pause and wait for us or something...
Yeah, we can add more talent...But guess what....So is everyone else...
This goes back to the original statement: "If we would have had more talent around Carr in '04 we would have gone 8-8"
IMO, that statement doesn't mean much.
My God even you have left David Carr off the starting material list...
why in the world do you want to change out the freak'n Free Safety if you don't even have a starting QB. & if he isn't a starting QB... why not dump him, and save $5million to get you that FS??
OK thanks...that is what I thought. I enjoy your posts because of the thought that goes into them (even the ones that I disagree with btw).
TEXANRED
Texan-American
David dissapointed me last year. He showed little to nothing in terms of competitive. How can you go to Tenn after everything that happened during the off season and not play with some sort of chip on your shoulder? He floundered in Dallas and played well below average when VY came to his house and claimed it as his own. -5 passing yards in Oakland ring a bell.
No sane person could honestly evaluate David after last years performance and say that, yes in fact, he was the answer. He didn't show anything different from his first four under Capers to his first year with Kubes.
I am not a hater either, I am a fence rider. No QB in the draft is worth a high pick, no one in FA worth spending big bucks on. I am settled with what I have and content in seeing what Carr can do with Kubes year two.
Telling you though, I am really hurting after those two Titan loses and Cowboy loss.
We need both new S. Neither of them are capable of making plays on the ball, both stink in coverage. Yea they can hit, but can they cover?
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
See it is better to think about fixing our LIABILITIES rather than thinking about which positions need an upgrade (because they all do).
Navy_Chris
Rookie
you must be on the Carr bandwagon, too.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
That's just it, Virtually every position is a liability except for those played by Mario, Meco, D-rob, AJ & mathis. I personally think that were OK at fullback as well with V. Leach. thats all we can truely say that we have solid on our whole team! For that reason, when looking at our team, i think it's best to look at what don't we need.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
I think on offense our real liabilities are QB and OL and on defense they are S, #2 CB position, and one OLB position (SLB). Other positions can be upgraded but are not significant liabilities IMO.
Where did I mention LONG TERM? I'm not oblivious to VY's potential. You had mentioned that VY was the only change on a losing squad. It implies that the QB was to blame for their short-comings and not having a winning record. McNair's success in Baltimore displays what appears to be an obvious fallacy in that argument.
McNair beats VY in stats, beats VY in wins, makes the Pro-Bowl and gets his team into the playoffs. IMHO - LAST year, McNair was the better QB, period.
The relevance to THIS thread is simple - no one man can do it alone, it takes a team. I hope Carr gets to play on a balanced one sometime in his NFL career. Whether that'll be with the Texans remains to be seen.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
watch some of the games and its obvious to see that Young was better at keeping drives alive than McNair was last year...you can't beat someone at "stats"...you beat someone by converting 3rd downs and producing TD's. VY had 19 TD's and McNair had 17 TD's on a much better team, with a much better line, and much better wr's and TE's, with fewer starts. Last time I checked, TD's are what wins games...not stat lines.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
wow, what does VY have to do to convince some folks that he's the real deal? 
I'm not stuck in perpetual 2006 Draft mode, so I don't cry over spilt milk. And VY wasn't even high on my 'wish list' to draft, so no homerisms here. But day-yum if he didn't come out and just prove that he belongs in the NFL. Dude is already somebody in just his first year, and I have no doubt that he'll be one to watch for many years to come.
As much as it pains me to give props to a Tennessee Titan, they got a playmaker with a winner's heart in Young. Those intangibles will always overcome physical abilty, which he's got a lot of positives in that respect, too.
I'm not stuck in perpetual 2006 Draft mode, so I don't cry over spilt milk. And VY wasn't even high on my 'wish list' to draft, so no homerisms here. But day-yum if he didn't come out and just prove that he belongs in the NFL. Dude is already somebody in just his first year, and I have no doubt that he'll be one to watch for many years to come.
As much as it pains me to give props to a Tennessee Titan, they got a playmaker with a winner's heart in Young. Those intangibles will always overcome physical abilty, which he's got a lot of positives in that respect, too.
Navy_Chris
Rookie
wow, what does VY have to do to convince some folks that he's the real deal?
I'm not stuck in perpetual 2006 Draft mode, so I don't cry over spilt milk. And VY wasn't even high on my 'wish list' to draft, so no homerisms here. But day-yum if he didn't come out and just prove that he belongs in the NFL. Dude is already somebody in just his first year, and I have no doubt that he'll be one to watch for many years to come.
As much as it pains me to give props to a Tennessee Titan, they got a playmaker with a winner's heart in Young. Those intangibles will always overcome physical abilty, which he's got a lot of positives in that respect, too.
Don't worry guys. I'm coming in to play QB in 2007! I've always wanted to do this. I have all the right qualifications too:
- 3 year starter at CB in the Hawaii Navy Flag Football League
- Voted "Most Likely to play CB in a flag football league" in high school
I'll lead this team to it's first EVER 8-8 season! Woo Hoo!!
TEXANRED
Texan-American
wow, what does VY have to do to convince some folks that he's the real deal?
I'm not stuck in perpetual 2006 Draft mode, so I don't cry over spilt milk. And VY wasn't even high on my 'wish list' to draft, so no homerisms here. But day-yum if he didn't come out and just prove that he belongs in the NFL. Dude is already somebody in just his first year, and I have no doubt that he'll be one to watch for many years to come.
As much as it pains me to give props to a Tennessee Titan, they got a playmaker with a winner's heart in Young. Those intangibles will always overcome physical abilty, which he's got a lot of positives in that respect, too.
First: Prove your a QB. Prove that you trust your arm more than your feet. B/C eventually, Defenses around the league will force you to throw the ball to beat them. See Vick as an example. That is one thing that Steve Young has over every other running QB, he could throw too, and the only runner who has ever won a SuperBowl.
Thats why I put more value in DLine in this years draft. If you can contain VY you will beat VY. If you put pressure on the QB you will beat the Colts. The Jags, well we own the Jags, nuff said about them.
Again this is the same argument that will never be settled. Some will say he is a playmaker, others will say he can't throw the ball. This is kinda like comparing apples to oranges.
R
real
Guest
I guess this was about the time last year that the board got flooded with terrible football knowledge...
I'm not trying to go round and round with you, and I'm not of the VY-homer school of thought...however...
Young was drafted as a first round QB, won NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year at QB, made it to the NFL Pro Bowl in his rookie year as a QB...I'm not sure what he's supposed to prove at this point in his career.
Comparing him to HoF QBs proves what, exactly? Heck, if that's the standard, then we could compare 75% of the current QBs and say that they don't measure up. But that's doesn't mean that they're not QBs.
BTW, "running QB" so overused. John Elway and Roger Staubach were scramblers, and if they had went north/south instead of east/west, I guess they could be "running QBs", too.
That pretty much goes without saying that a dominant defensive line will counter great QBs. Mr. McNair/Kubiak specifically mentioned Manning as a primary reason to draft Mario last year.
However, the "If you can contain VY you will beat VY" is a mighty big IF. I recall a certain 3rd and 14 play in OT last year that we should have just contained VY, but we failed to do so.
I really don't understand. This debate will be settled by what he does in his career. So far, his resume is looking pretty good, and [again] this coming from a Titan hater. I've got to give credit where it's due as part of intellectual honesty.
And truth be told, the perpetual 'never-ending' argument is about our boy Carr. Five years of pro ball, and we're still "evaluating his potential". At least we now understand that we'll need a Pro Bowl offensive line, a consistent running game, 2-3 more offensive playmakers, and a dominant defense to help him out.
We've got that part of the evaluation process down pat.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
And truth be told, the perpetual 'never-ending' argument is about our boy Carr. Five years of pro ball, and we're still "evaluating his potential". At least we now understand that we'll need a Pro Bowl offensive line, a consistent running game, 2-3 more offensive playmakers, and a dominant defense to help him out.
We've got that part of the evaluation process down pat.
The worst and most frustrating thing about the Carr situation as it relates to our future is that while Carr continues to struggle and we continue to "evaluate his potential" he limits the growth of his teamates and every offensive player we draft while he is on the team.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
I know you are a Carr supporter and I disagree with your sentiments but agree with the fact that him being here is posion. I think he is overrrated and has shown all that we need to see. There is no secret about that. However, the team is shopping him, people want him gone..another year with him, is another year wasted towards getting on with the task of starting to build towards something but all they do is sit like deer in headlights. I'm hoping they are working their tail off behind the scenes to get him sent somewhere because it is the only way this will all heal. I just got through listening to Charlie go through the 2005 draft and I'm amazed how much Charlie and the team bungles this franchise. Remember when people lastyear said it wasn't Charlies fault? Time to move forward. Please, for the love of God. Sometimes cutting the cord is the best for all.
Nice post! One poster even said that if everything on OF were perfect, we wouldn't even need a QB...go figure!
Kubiak was correct at the end of the year when he said scoring more points is a priority, as it has been a problem since day one with this franchise. Bringing Carr back will set this team back even further, as David 'drastically' limits what the OF can do...
However-saying that- if Kubes brings David back, it's show time!...no more holding back--force Carr's 'hand' and get the ball vertically down the field--other wise, why bring him back? We need points, no matter the QB.
MATRIX
Waterboy
I honestly feel they will wait till NEXT year to replace him. On 610AM in Houston, while alot dislike him. Many agree that due to his cap money, and only 1 year with Gary. That they will atleast keep him this year.
And who know, with a line that will keep him standing and a second year in the same system. Carr may look really good come mid season. All he would need is to get over that attitude of thinking he only has 1 second to throw(after all thats all the line has given him most of his carrer).
I see the draft being a RB(Lynch most likely after what Peterson did...he is now top 5), one good D lineman and the rest on OL and skill players late. I very seriously doubt they are even looking to take a QB. Maybe if they cut DD they will look for a vet just in case. But, nothing more till Carr has 2yrs in the system to show his skills(or lack of).
And who know, with a line that will keep him standing and a second year in the same system. Carr may look really good come mid season. All he would need is to get over that attitude of thinking he only has 1 second to throw(after all thats all the line has given him most of his carrer).
I see the draft being a RB(Lynch most likely after what Peterson did...he is now top 5), one good D lineman and the rest on OL and skill players late. I very seriously doubt they are even looking to take a QB. Maybe if they cut DD they will look for a vet just in case. But, nothing more till Carr has 2yrs in the system to show his skills(or lack of).
Hmm, last time I checked, scoring more points than the OTHER team is what wins games. It's relevant sarcasm because the Titans defense won several of those games without much help from the QB position.
I've just seen it argued here that it's W's that count, not stats and the simple matter is that McNair delivered more of them to the Ravens than VY did the Titans. McNair wasn't as "washed-up" as the Titans thought and it was probably a mistake to get rid of him that early (much like the Texans did with Aaron Glenn). It's especially galling that the McNair was ALREADY mentoring VY and you couldn't have had a better groundwork in place for an easier transition.
To bring up the "much better line" argument in a thread about Carr is near blasphemous. When does DC get his chance to go 13-3 behind a good line? Name one team in the league who has started more O-Line configurations than the Texans in the last 5 years. I doubt there were any, but if so, how does THEIR QB compare vs. Carr?