Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Quoted for entertainment.
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Vince Young does not rule ass
- Thread starter AlbinoRat
- Start date
Quoted for entertainment.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
I...must...resist...urge....
*looks up to the sky with arms outstretched*
KHAN!!!!!
mexican_texan
Furry Tractors
I wonder....does any QB have a worse WR corps than VY? I don't like the guy, but I respect him...give him his cred.
...VY>Carr
...VY>Carr
The Titans have a 90% 3rd & 4th down conversion %, that's PHENOMENAL!...it's also not true.
VY is doing better than expected....for a rookie. Teams win games, VY was 'pedestrian' until the final series in the Texans game, and wasn't much of a help in their next win (Defense won that one, and VY doesn't play "D"). He's got great potential, but he's still raw. Hey, if I was a Titan fan, I'd be ecstatic too, but I'd still hold off on that bust in Canton for awhile.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
I would hope you would realize that I was not quoting it as an official statistic. It's called exagerration or telling a fisherman's tale. But if you are hung up on statistics that actually show whether a QB is effective or not, well then here is one statistic for you. He has RAN for more 1st downs on 3rd or 4th down than ANY player in the league besides LaDanian Tomlinson and I believe Frank Gore. Also please bear in mind that he didn't start the first 3 games of the season. That is both PHENOMENAL and true. Don't hate on VY. He took an 0-3 team, lost his first two starts and then led his team into the playoff race. That is undeniably strong evidence that shows how valuable he is and how effective he is on field and as locker room leader.
mexican_texan
Furry Tractors
actually, never use stats when talking about Vince Young unless it speaks well of the second coming.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
here is a stat dolphin fan. 8 wins in his last 9 starts. He has won 3 more games in a 9 game span than David has won in ANY 16 game span of David's. Remember David only started for 5 of the 7 wins in Year 3. Oh and this is in his rookie year. Last time I checked the stat that matters is winning. Case closed. Calling someone 'kids' may get a chuckle in the Dolphins message board, but on the Texans' board it just shows that you have no argument.
R
real
Guest
There you go jumping to extremes again....
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Drugs are bad. Vince Young is good. M'kay?
ATX
Hall of Fame
Here's a stat...
Texans beat Colts for first time in 5 years. Key play early in the game was a forced fumble by Mario Williams. Titans have beaten the Colts without VY,we have never beaten the Colts without Williams.
I can't say that VY on the Texans would have done the same. The rise of the Texans and future playoff chances include beating the Colts and winning the division.
On a side note, I loved VY at Texas. But We were damned if we did and damned if we didn't. Take away a good running back in Travis Henry, a better line than the Texans, a 60 yard field goal, and a defense that has created some huge turnovers and VY looks average.
Sorry if i got off topic, but VY is not God after 1 season. Not saying he is bad or doesn't have a good future, but I'm not going to judge a player after 1 season.
Texans beat Colts for first time in 5 years. Key play early in the game was a forced fumble by Mario Williams. Titans have beaten the Colts without VY,we have never beaten the Colts without Williams.
I can't say that VY on the Texans would have done the same. The rise of the Texans and future playoff chances include beating the Colts and winning the division.
On a side note, I loved VY at Texas. But We were damned if we did and damned if we didn't. Take away a good running back in Travis Henry, a better line than the Texans, a 60 yard field goal, and a defense that has created some huge turnovers and VY looks average.
Sorry if i got off topic, but VY is not God after 1 season. Not saying he is bad or doesn't have a good future, but I'm not going to judge a player after 1 season.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
I hear ya but I am just pointing to the W/L column. The Titans were circling the drain at 0-3 and Vince comes in and has them in the playoff hunt as a rookie. I don't buy the argument that the Titans have more talent than Texans. They have more talent at QB and obviously in their secondary. Other than that, they are pretty equitable.
Oh, as for him being God after one season. I equate him more a a Paul Bunyan type. Half legend half truth but all about winning football games. The league is predicated on adjustments so maybe the league catches up, but its tough to replicate VY in practice.
old football fan
Waterboy
Think I said running QB not scrambling QB. There is a difference. Young had plays designed for him to run. Elway ran as the very last resort as did Roger.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
Roger had plays designed for him to run as well but mostly early in his career. Elway only ran as the last resort save a QB draw or sneak once in a while. I will say that Young has had more running plays designed for him than probably any other Super Bowl era QB.
Interesting fact. Vince Young's current 6 game winning streak is the 3rd longest since the AFL/NFL merger over 40 years ago. Thanks to ESPN for that fact.
VY for OROY
R
real
Guest
I really don't understand the "no one else has done it before" argument.....
That's the same argument as:
"Columbus....Don't try it....the earth is flat.....you'll fall off"
That's the same argument as:
"Columbus....Don't try it....the earth is flat.....you'll fall off"
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
haha. ironically, VY's QB play is actually old school football. It just didn't survive all the rules changes that have favored passing and the offense in general.
I would like to petition a name change to this thread and just make it The Vince Young forum. He should have his own forum as a child forum to the NFL Discussion forum. That way all VY posts would just be automatically moved to its own forum.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
The thread has already matured. At first it was titled Vince Young sucks. I think it can be said that VY is not bad either.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
Vince Young Is Who We Thought He Was should be the name of the thread. FWIW, any chick who is down with The Ramones is a keeper in my book. Congrats on the anniversary.
Titan "Tack" Fan
Veteran
No, and for the 2nd half of this year you can add TEs to that list too.
Our top 3 starting TEs are currently injured for the season. We are using PRACTICE SQUAD TIGHT ENDS. The guy who started on Sunday against the Bills had 3 crucial drops........and Vince still gets it done.
ATX
Hall of Fame
They also had Kerry Collins starting for them. Anybody is better than Collins.
Titan "Tack" Fan
Veteran
You can say that again...He's the reason we aren't in the playoffs.
I got both things right. If you read the whole thing, I state it's just my opinion.
Wow, some coward gave me negative rep. for THAT? Gee, I wonder who...
Yep, guess the Colts should ask to trade Peyton straight-up then? Listen to yourselves...HE took. HE led. Wow, I guess that QB they cut in the offseason...(Steve somebody or other) just couldn't be as successful as VY...oh wait...
I'm no VY hater, nor part of the VY admiration society. It's just amazing to me that when he does anything sub-standard, he's "just a rookie", but when he has a phenomenal play (as he did against the Texans / Bills) he's an "All-Pro" already.
Vince is still raw, it remains to be seen whether he'll get all those rough edges smoothed off. As I said before, I'd be ecstatic if I were a Titans fan, just to think of the potential he represents. Evidently, that's just not enough for some.
If you had anyone other than Kerry Collins starting for Tennessee, Vince may not be starting now.
With Volek or McNair, the Titans may very well have been keeping their head above water with a 3-2 or a 4-1 record. They'd be second guessed all day, and all season.
But with Kerry Collins..... 0-5, Vince could flat out suck, and no one would expect to see Collins back in the game.
It was genius getting Collins in Tennessee..... kind of cold and Heartless the way the dumped McNair & Volek.. but Fisher ain't playing around. He's too old for QB controversies..
BetOnVYinCantonEasy
Practice Squad
Yes, there is a difference. I switched it to scrambling because that is what Young is. You are, IMO, going to find that out over his career. This idea that he is a running QB suggests you haven't watched him play consistently or that you think that if any QB is talented enough to have his running abilites used purposely in an offense, then he a "running QB". He looks to throw, and when the pass isn't there, when he doesn't see the open receiver, when the play is designed for him to run, or when he sees an open receiver and has a lane to run and makes a split second decision that the run is the better option available, he runs. (And BTW, how many times is a receiver open for any QB in the NFL but he cannot see it or make the throw because of the pressure he is under from defenders? Wouldn't you think it is an asset that any QB could occasionally, in that situation, turn that into a TD and often turn it into a first down? I would. That makes even a subpar or inexperienced O-line serviceable. Same goes for making the decision to run even if the pass is there. Depending on the situation, if a QB can see that a pass play has a decent chance for success, say for a first down, but he is certain he can get it by running it, why wouldn't you want him to? Unless you can demonstrate that the QB typically assesses that situation wrong or is taking too many unnecessary hits from doing so, you would want him too--just opens up the offense that much more. So far, VY has been exceptional in these types of assessments and avoiding punishment for them, so it would be silly to deny that additional offensive threat to your team. The philosophy against a QB running, if he can run well, is overrated anyway. Most injuries QBs suffer come from blindside hits or vicious sacks behind the line of scrimmage when they are trying to release the ball. So long as a QB knows when to slide, he usually knows where the hit is coming from and isn't extended in a manner whereby he is likely to be injured as when throwing. VY knows when to slide.) The reason I think it is a mistake to label him a running QB is that it suggests that he does that to make up for some weakness in his passing skills, which I do not believe to be the case. In fact I think his amazing running ability simply adds one more weapon into his arsenal, which, in its addition, makes him all around better in every other aspect of his QB-ing abilities and makes the offense better overall at every position. It opens lanes for RBs, routes for WRs and TEs, leaves less ground to cover for the O-line, etc. And while I will agree with anyone saying the O-line of the Titans is better than the Texans, that says about as much as saying that most O-lines in the NFL were not as good as the Cowboys in the nineties. Yes, its better because you probably have the worst O-line in the NFL, but its not that good--its better than it would be, for certain, because Young is QB. His TEs are injured, or have been, and surely nobody is going to say he is playing with a top-flight WR corps.
I suppose I can understand why some people make the mistake of thinking of him as a running QB because I believe he will redefine the position at QB. In the future, teams will be looking for QBs with his skill set because of his play, and the results, in the NFL. There was a time when people thought of the West Coast Offense was a gimmick. There was a time when people thought passing in football was overrated or an outright anathema. In that vein, many of the QBs in the past that could run only did so when a pass play broke down because coaches did not design plays to accomodate the QB's running ability...they just hoped it would save the occasional broken play. Maybe had they designed plays for Elway to run he would have a winning record in SBs. Maybe not, who knows?
As far as the situation with Young at UT regarding the switch from a pro style offense to the zone read, here is something to consider. They switched to the zone read before they stopped trying to force Young into throwing the ball with traditional mechanics. His ability as a passer blossoming in his last two years came after Young convinced the coaching staff to quit trying to force him into a style that wasn't innately his own. It is my belief that this is the key to his progression as a passer in college, not the change in offense--that and the recognition that his running ability for yardage should not be downplayed because its not a traditional talent for QBs to use by design. If some athelete could run the 100m dash in record to near record time with a strange looking style but could not using tradional mechanics, would you force him to look like you think he should at the cost of awesome results? It looks as if Fisher and Chow understand this and that makes me smile ear to ear. The ability to change preconceived notions to match the situation for maximum results is innovation. However, the fact that Young, even to his detriment, tried to play as his coaches asked him to do until they recognized their mistake at Texas regarding his mechanics provides insight into one of the great qualities about Young--he is immanently coachable, ego is not a problem.
Now, finally, to address the valid argument that VY has not looked great with long passes so far in his rookie season put forward by Kastofsna. Yes, there have been some dropped long passes, and yes, a stud #1 receiver and simply more time in the system to turn an intellectual grasp of the system played in into successful results through repetition and trust between VY and the receivers will lead to better results, but, there is no argument that, of all the skills that Young has displayed so far, this is his weakest area. To that I will say that I do believe time in the system with a consistent WR set will lead to vastly improved results, regardless of the talent of the WRs but, with a top notch WR corps those results will improve precipitately. Sweed at UT has progressed from a WR that looked to be only a college player to a legit NFL prospect, and Pittman was, at times, an adequate long threat, but VY didn't have the WRs at UT to make long ball a consistent option when he was a starter. Yet, many times when he did go long, he hit his open receivers in stride, and many times he put the throw right on the money in tight coverage when going long. I think it will come to him over the next two years in the NFL, provided they do not try to change his throwing motion, and I no longer think they will make that mistake. That said, would that really matter if he turns out to be spot on from 25 yards and in and can consistently move the ball up and down the field and score TDs? If you think about it, if a QB can do that and it is on a team that likes to run and control clock, it makes the offense that much more deadly. Defenses couldn't simply abandon coverage considering the long ball threat because even now he wouldn't have a problem hitting a glaringly wide open receiver long. He's already done that numerous times (whether they were caught or not) with the far less than stellar WR corps he has now.
All that being said, as a side note, it seems like Kastofsna takes a lot of flack on numerous boards for giving his opinions, but, if the results prove him wrong, he has no problem admitting it promptly--his opinion of VY is far better than it once was-- and I am going to enjoy watching his full conversion to VY praiser over the next two years.
Some more meaningful (and enjoyable) stats about VY as per CarKev14 over at Hornfans.com:
"Over the past 5 games:
1) Vince is undefeated (5-0, matched only by Philip Rivers).
2) Vince is #8 in the NFL in passing completion % (63.71). No QB with fewer than 4 completed seasons is ahead of him.
3) Vince is #5 in the NFL in TD/INT ratio (2.0). No QB with fewer than 5 completed seasons is ahead of him.
4) Vince is #6 in the NFL in % passes intercepted (2.42%). No QB with fewer than 2 completed seasons is ahead of him.
5) Vince is #5 in the NFL in PER (91.50). No QB with fewer than 5 completed seasons is ahead of him.
6) Vince is #3 in the NFL in total TD's by a QB (9). No QB with fewer than 5 completed seasons is ahead of him."
and
"Looking at the whole season, here are 4th-quarter/OT victories by starting QB's (behind or tied in the 4th but won):
5: Vince
4: Rivers
3: 12 QB's
2: 6 QB's
1: 14 QB's
0: 4 QB's
Here are 4th-quarter comebacks (behind and won):
4: Vince, Rivers
3: P. Manning, McNair
2: 12 QB's
1: 13 QB's
0: 9 QB's "
Remember, he is only a rookie, without an experienced and/or exceptionally talented cast around him, but there aren't too many stats as of late by which you could tell that. And if he continues to excel, the comparisons won't be nearly so much contemporary as historical. Sure, for some, that is the big "if", but watching him play for years already, I have no doubts and absolutely no expectation that some day I will have to think, "Wow, that didn't turn out like I expected it to." Barring injury, the question isn't will he win SBs, MVPs, and break career records, its only how many and will he be the greatest QB ever. But already I think it is misguided to question how successful he will be as a "running" QB. However, for those who simply cannot see it any other way, I do think one day you will be seriously considering if a "running" QB was the greatest QB of all time.
Have you actually watched Vince Young play? He keeps his eyes downfield, doesn't get happy feet, and isn't looking to run at the first sign of trouble. The guy's poise and pocket presence are as good as any QB in the league, bar none. The difference is, if Vince sees something open up, he has the athletic ability to exploit it, and isn't afraid to do it.
Statistics show that VY really isn't running any more than Steve Young did, even well into his career.
As a rookie, Vince Young has thrown 321 passes, with 81 rushes....roughly a 4:1 ratio.
In 1991, Steve Young's sixth year in the NFL, he threw 279 passes and ran 66 times....again, roughly a 4:1 ratio
(By comparison, Vick's pass/run ratio is typically in the neighborhood of 3:1).
I'm not one of those who buys into the whole racism thing, but I honestly believe that if VY was a white guy, then everyone would be comparing him to Steve Young....but he's not, so everyone compares him to Vick.
As far as being great:
Through 2004, 2005, and the first 5 games of 2006, the Titans had won a total of nine games, for a winning percentage of .243.
With a rookie Vince Young at QB, the team has a winning percentage of .667.
Considering the state of things in Tennessee for the past couple years, I'd say that's pretty great.
BetOnVYinCantonEasy
Practice Squad
I don't know your definition of "run first", but I don't really think I need to know. Accomplished NFL QBs are remembered by the appellations "great because..." and "great but..." Marino was great but he never won the SB. Manning is on his way to that. Farve is (maybe soon to be was) great because he made some of the most amazing passes under duress a QB ever has and imposed his will upon his team. If he hadn't won a Superbowl he'd have likely been known as great but he had too much of a proclivity to attempt too much and thus threw too many interceptions. Unitas might have been remembered the same way if he didn't win the big game. Elway would have been remembered as a great QB but a choker in the big game (Manning is on his way to that) except that he, with an exceptional amount of help from the RB position, won two SBs on the way out, long after the physical apex of his career. Bottom line, VY will grow with his understanding of Chow's system, a better WR corps, and simply more NFL experience into a slightly more pass oriented QB over the next few years I would imagine. And, when he enters the last third of his career, he will probably be a much less likely to run, due to the wear and tear of an NFL career and the natural loss of a bit of speed that is concomitant with age, but that will be made up for with experience. Really, I take him for his word when he says he'll do whatever it takes to win. If that turns out to be a radical change in his approach to the game, he'll do it. If that turns out to be 12 to 14 rushing touchdowns a year of varying distances between 1yd and 50yds along with converting 25% to 30% of the Titans successful 3rd and 4th down attempts with a rush, he'll do it. He is going to do whatever it takes to win SBs, but I am not at all convinced he will need to change his style one bit. I am convinced he will add to his overall arsenal, much as he did at UT over a three year span, but I really don't see him abandoning the run game in his repertoire any more than would naturally result from a more trustworthy and synchronized interaction with an improved WR corps. I would imagine that in that scenario, he runs fewer times but for an even higher average per run. He is going to make the "dual threat by design" QB category in the NFL legitimate. I think that many people assume VY runs because he cannot see the field quickly enough when its precisely the opposite. Just wait. A little more time to internalize Chow's offensive scheme so that its second nature and you'll be seeing the real fireworks in the air and on the ground. This is nothing yet. And a little more time means "next year". Chow has already said that VY has run plays in-game that they haven't even practiced yet from the playbook, successfully. And he is already suggesting sage adjustments in-game from the original game plan for the day based upon the defensive sets and strategy with the coaches assenting to the advice. I am going to love the NFL for the next ten to fifteen years.
mexican_texan
Furry Tractors
VY is a run first QB. Deal with it. All of his "great" highlights are of him running.
paragraphs were invented for a reason good gosh
When I watched Vince at UT, he never seemed to be a run first QB.
In the first half, he'd play QB. Throwing to open recievers, handing the ball to the RB.....
If they were down in the 4th... he'd turn it on, and do all those amazing things we talk about.
Personally, I don't care if he is a running QB. If he could've helped to bring a 5 game winstreak to Houston in his rookie season... & a win against the Division leader... shoot... I'd be exstatic.
kastofsna
Hall of Fame
i'll reiterate my defintion of "run first" QB, and i believe most people follow a similiar train of thought:
if the QB's ability to run is shutdown by the defense, he'll have trouble being strictly a pocket passer. they need to have that element to succeed. look at vick. he has plenty of good passing games, but those are when he also has the option of running. against teams like the bucs and eagles who shutdown the run option, he's a disaster in the pocket. look at young against the jaguars. they didn't allow young to have an opprotunity to run, and he couldn't just stand in the pocket and pass.
the difference between the two is that young is a much better passer than vick when the run option is open.
if the QB's ability to run is shutdown by the defense, he'll have trouble being strictly a pocket passer. they need to have that element to succeed. look at vick. he has plenty of good passing games, but those are when he also has the option of running. against teams like the bucs and eagles who shutdown the run option, he's a disaster in the pocket. look at young against the jaguars. they didn't allow young to have an opprotunity to run, and he couldn't just stand in the pocket and pass.
the difference between the two is that young is a much better passer than vick when the run option is open.
BetOnVYinCantonEasy
Practice Squad
This looks to be a statement of somebody who has deveoped his opinion of a player by the highlights he has seen on youtube and not from watching his entire career at the university for which he played. If I am wrong, I apologize for the suggestion and we'll just have to agree to disagree. Check his stats from the last year and a half especially at UT and then look up some video of his passing...there are places you can find it if you know where to look. I suggest jcdenton40.com. Also, if you look at previous posts I have made, you'll see that the stats confirm in the last five games that Young defers to hardly no one in terms of PER, TD/INT ratio, pass completion %, and pass interception %....without his starting or backup tight ends and with an average WR corps at best, and that is being generous(Jones is tied for 12th, Bennett for 20th, and Troupe (TE) for 20th in dropped passes in the AFC.) Sounds like a guy that can throw the ball to me. Just about anybody would be happy with a QB that ranks so high in those categories, especially during the playoff drive, and especially if the QB is contributing to wins and not just avoiding losses. I think only Hoge is left defending the proposition that the Titans are hiding Young. Remembering that this is VY's rookie year, and an abbreviated one at that, with the toughest schedule in the NFL this year, makes this information down right freakish.
That definition of "run first" QB is fine...I'd just call that a "scrambling" QB...six on one hand, half a dozen on the other. It seems to me that most scrambling QBs, if their O-line was overwhelmed outright or even at the edges have had that difficulty. I guess that is the difference between good and great. The great scramblers still managed to get at least some relative evasion. A pocket that would be considered completely collapsed for most QBs would still provide a slight amount of movement for QBs with great mobility, and many times they would use that extra half-second or so to make a play. By you definition though, I am simply not convinced that VY will have that problem. Two games against Jax in a rookie season just seems to me to be too small a data set. I'll wait to see after a couple more years (and hopefully one to two acquisitions at O-line, one of them for when Mawae retires) if Young has a consistent problem when the O-line is great, not just decent, and especially if they build an O-line to match his style of play, which I believe they will. If he does, I will reevaluate my position. Of course, one more WR if Jones works out, two if he doesn't, plays into this as well. I am of the camp, the lucid one I believe, that even the greats in sports cannot succeed ultimately without at least decent, balanced talent around them (MJ with the LA Clippers probably doesn't win a ring, even though he would likely still be considered the greatest basketball player ever, statistically.) How many more rings does Elway have with the Cowboys' O-line in the nineties? How many does McNair have? McNabb? And what QB historically would have a ring with the Texans' O-line?
I suppose we'll have to see who's theory on VY at UT works out as a predictor, if either. You see a QB that couldn't handle a pro-style offense, I saw a QB that could handle one if his throwing motion wasn't manipulated in specific and if his style wasn't manipulated in general in deference to the prototypical standard. Gregg Davis, by the way agrees. His two biggest mistakes in college football, he says, was to keep VY out of the starting roll early on and trying to change his style to resemble the style of most QBs.
Precisely because I don't believe Vick ever should have been a starting QB, I think the comparisons between him and VY are premature at best. Again, look at what both did in college (VY destroys him), and look at their obvious differences in the NFL even in VY's first year. I won't say that the stats confirm it--there simply aren't enough yet--but I will say they definitely suggest it. It is just my opinion, but, in two more complete NFL seasons, I don't think many people will admit to having made the VY/Vick comparison.
Thank you for your response, Napoleon Dynamite. You have aided me in my quest to garner the world record of replies to my posts that critique style only and not one whit of their substance. Actually, you are a true boon because it counts twice if the individual crosses the grammar irony threshold. It is people like you who help to make my dream a possibly viable reality, truly it is. As William Faulkner's unfortunate semi-literate love child, it is the best for which I can humbly hope.
kastofsna
Hall of Fame
well, it wasn't just the jacksonville games, there was also the eagles and cowboys games. didn't happen much at texas, but A&M did a damn fine job.
as for vick in college, i disagree. his freshman season, he was unstoppable, and was without a doubt the main reason they went to the national championship. he and antwan randle-el are the two most impactful QB's in college in a long time IMO.
as for vick in college, i disagree. his freshman season, he was unstoppable, and was without a doubt the main reason they went to the national championship. he and antwan randle-el are the two most impactful QB's in college in a long time IMO.
doughboy
Waterboy
Ok so just because his highlights are of him running make him a run first QB watch his highlights. I have never seen vince run before he checks all his progressions.
Notice vince looks down feild gets pressured then runs at the last second
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f20Y3f542m4
Im assuming this is the play you are talking about
Mike Vick is the only run first QB in the NFL
As we sit here today, VY is a top 10 QB. He's produced 18 TDs to 13 turnovers, and is 8-4.
QBs ranked by TD/TO ratio:
P. Manning 32/10 (3.2)
McNabb 21/8 (2.63)
Bulger 23/11 (2.09)
Rivers 20/10 (2)
Brees 26/14 (1.85)
Brady 23/16 (1.44)
McNair 17/12 (1.42)
Young 18/13 (1.38)
Vick 21/16 (1.31)
Romo 17/13 (1.31)
Palmer 26/20 (1.3)
That's just one stat, but it shows you VY's playmaking and poise. I'm not saying he's a top 10 QB on that stat, but on the numbers, playmaking, winning, and progress. He's got holes in his game, but he's having some very tangible success as a rookie.
Of the guys on that list, Brady, Vick, and McNair have similar talent levels at the skilled spots and are all bunched together there. Interestingly, that ratio is pretty close for all of them.
QBs ranked by TD/TO ratio:
P. Manning 32/10 (3.2)
McNabb 21/8 (2.63)
Bulger 23/11 (2.09)
Rivers 20/10 (2)
Brees 26/14 (1.85)
Brady 23/16 (1.44)
McNair 17/12 (1.42)
Young 18/13 (1.38)
Vick 21/16 (1.31)
Romo 17/13 (1.31)
Palmer 26/20 (1.3)
That's just one stat, but it shows you VY's playmaking and poise. I'm not saying he's a top 10 QB on that stat, but on the numbers, playmaking, winning, and progress. He's got holes in his game, but he's having some very tangible success as a rookie.
Of the guys on that list, Brady, Vick, and McNair have similar talent levels at the skilled spots and are all bunched together there. Interestingly, that ratio is pretty close for all of them.
kastofsna
Hall of Fame
i can't buy top 10 QB. nosir. he still makes some bad mistakes. i thought it was a pretty horrible idea on 3rd and long with about 1:10 left on the clock against the jags to audible out of a running play and attempt a pass. it gave the jags' offense a chance to score with a minute remaining. i have to question that decision by him.
mexican_texan
Furry Tractors
I've watched VY since he was at UT, before he was ESPN's golden child.
Yup. He's top 10. There aren't 10 better QB's.
Week 14- Late game TD drive. OT walk-off TD run. W
Week 15- Subpar game, horrible decision. W
Week 16- Buzzer beating 1st half TD. Late game FG drive. 9 pt comeback. W
Vince carried that team in week 16 like maybe 2 or 3 guys are capable of doing. That team had such awful field position all game, had so many horrible penalties, and had such poor defense (forced 1 punt all game), the only reason they are alive this week is VY and T-Henry.
To point out the 1 low point bracketed by 2 superb efforts isn't going to convince me he's not a top 10 QB.
kastofsna
Hall of Fame
that was just one low point that came to mind. he still fumbles, he throws picks and his 3rd down passing is pretty poor.
and some of the guys who are better QB's now:
peyton manning
tom brady
marc bulger
carson palmer
drew brees
brett favre
ben roethlisberger
philip rivers
steve mcnair
donovan mcnabb
matt hasselbeck
and some of the guys who are better QB's now:
peyton manning
tom brady
marc bulger
carson palmer
drew brees
brett favre
ben roethlisberger
philip rivers
steve mcnair
donovan mcnabb
matt hasselbeck
Wasn't counting McNabb because he's out for a while with that ACL.
Hasselbeck just hasn't played better than VY this year... his passing is marginally better but VY brings that rushing element. We're comparing a guy in his 30's to a 23 yr. old.
McNair and VY are equally productive, but Steve's got more experience right now.
Favre is a game away from retirement, and regarding performance, see Hasselbeck.
I give Roethlisberger credit for a body of work at such a young age.
We can revisit this in a year, but based on his performance now, and his continual improvement since 2003, I think he'll be fighting for a spot among that top tier of QBs with Brady, Palmer, Brees, and Manning. Scratch Favre and Hasselbeck off your list and there's your top 10 QB.
Regarding Young's fumbles, he's lost 2 all season and 1 of those was a botched handoff (looked to be the RB's fault). All's well that ends well, right?
kastofsna
Hall of Fame
i'm not looking at age vs. potential here, you said he's a top 10 QB right now, and i disagree. yes, he may have a brighter future than hasselbeck and bulger and the like, but i dont' see how he's better than them right now.
ATX
Hall of Fame
I was at a sports bar last night and they had the Bills-Titans game on one of the TVs, so I watched the second half. VY did not win that game in any way shape or form. Travis Henry ran all over the Bills and it was Losman who threw that INT late in the game. Bills should have just kicked the field goal and won the game. The last drive was all Travis Henry.
VY's numbers are superior to Hasselbeck's this year. VY is a 23 yr. old rookie, Hasselbeck is 31. VY stands to improve next year, and Hasselbeck seems to have regressed from the magical Hutchinson-Alexander form of 2003-2005. So me saying VY is better than Hasselbeck is based on the fact that a) his 2006 numbers are better b)he's more likely to improve in 2007 than Hasselbeck is. You are entitled to disagree with me, Hasselbeck was a Pro-Bowl caliber guy from 2003-2005, he's got a lot going for him.
for someone who has 2k posts sure stuck your foot in your mouth with that one? You sir obviously didnt watch the game
Huge
All Pro
Would it be fair to say those QBs have a much better supporting cast than Young?
And you'd have a hard time convincing me that Ben Roethlisberger is a better QB than Young.
You mean he wrestled that title from Reggie Bush? That can't be right....