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CJ Stroud year 2

sprtsfanatic said:
ridiculous...lets not use our eyes and believe what we see....instead lets just believe what other people tell us and regurgitate what they say and claim it as fact....
sounds all too familiar like the pandemic
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Lol already. I’ve watched him play for two years straight and imo the young man is pretty darn good. He was taught to stand tall in the pocket and his coaches then didn’t want him to scramble.

Crazy how the criteria has flipped from people didn’t want a scrambling quarterback.
 
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sprtsfanatic said:
ridiculous...lets not use our eyes and believe what we see....instead lets just believe what other people tell us and regurgitate what they say and claim it as fact....
sounds all too familiar like the pandemic
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So you're asserting that the videos you posted are wrong and recycled narratives?
 
powda said:
So you're asserting that the videos you posted are wrong and recycled narratives?
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Videos I posted??? Im sure you have me confused with someone else since I have NEVER posted a video on this message board going all the way back to the original mb in 2002...

but to your question and asserted point: I would ask you this; Who are those nerds on the videos that were posted?? Are they qb gurus? Have they played the position at any meaningful level of football? Are they scouts? Are they directors of player personnel??? If not then their videos arent worth watching...the videos I watched of the qb class were either real games, or qb gurus. For example I watched vids of McCown break down film and tape of all the qb's, I listened to Chris Simms talk on the class this class of qb's, Ive also watched Jordan Palmer break down film...

So whose "expert" advice and opinions would you take more weight from?? two youtubers who are just trying to to have a channel or experts and coaches that have played/coached the position?? Because I assure you that none of the experts had any negative things to say about CJ when it came to pocket pressure and delivering the ball. They raved about his prototypical size and build, above avg arm, great form and mechanics, his footwork, and crisp delivery at every level of the field.
 
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Texansballer74 said:
It all started with media heads.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
youtube.com youtube.com


And trickled down to some members concerns on here.
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It wasn't entirely false.

His numbers did take a nose dive under pressure.

The thing is that those situations often coincide with tight windows, or no receiver open, or a drop by the receiver or a tough catch that some college receivers couldn't handle.
Sometimes the receivers weren't on the same page on the scramble drill.
Sometimes, CJ had to throw them away.
Sometimes he had to throw the ball to a safe place (which also make it harder to catch).

They add together to make it look worse than what actually transpired.
 
sprtsfanatic said:
Videos I posted??? Im sure you have me confused with someone else since I have NEVER posted a video on this message board going all the way back to the original mb in 2002...
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Apparently you're right and I have early onset Alzheimer’s? I was referring to a post by @Texansballer74.
 
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Texansballer74 said:
It all started with media heads.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
youtube.com youtube.com


And trickled down to some members concerns on here.
Click to expand...


While the jist may or may not be accurate, I find the second video to be hypercritical and a poor sampling.
 
76Texan said:
It wasn't entirely false.

His numbers did take a nose dive under pressure.

The thing is that those situations often coincide with tight windows, or no receiver open, or a drop by the receiver or a tough catch that some college receivers couldn't handle.
Sometimes the receivers weren't on the same page on the scramble drill.
Sometimes, CJ had to throw them away.
Sometimes he had to throw the ball to a safe place (which also make it harder to catch).

They add together to make it look worse than what actually transpired.
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Agreed. So many factors in the entire equation.
 
sprtsfanatic said:
ridiculous...lets not use our eyes and believe what we see....instead lets just believe what other people tell us and regurgitate what they say and claim it as fact....
sounds all too familiar like the pandemic
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Wait.. are you suggesting.. no you can't be.. that we.. how do I say it? Think for.. gulp.. ourselves? Oh the horror of you suggesting that.
 
sprtsfanatic said:
Videos I posted??? Im sure you have me confused with someone else since I have NEVER posted a video on this message board going all the way back to the original mb in 2002...

but to your question and asserted point: I would ask you this; Who are those nerds on the videos that were posted?? Are they qb gurus? Have they played the position at any meaningful level of football? Are they scouts? Are they directors of player personnel??? If not then their videos arent worth watching...the videos I watched of the qb class were either real games, or qb gurus. For example I watched vids of McCown break down film and tape of all the qb's, I listened to Chris Simms talk on the class this class of qb's, Ive also watched Jordan Palmer break down film...

So whose "expert" advice and opinions would you take more weight from?? two youtubers who are just trying to to have a channel or experts and coaches that have played/coached the position?? Because I assure you that none of the experts had any negative things to say about CJ when it came to pocket pressure and delivering the ball. They raved about his prototypical size and build, above avg arm, great form and mechanics, his footwork, and crisp delivery at every level of the field.
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Understood and I try to give weight to more educated opinions. That said, I'm always open to learn. Lots of videos focus on the qb in the pocket and it doesn't seem many ALSO describe what's happening downfield. What kinda coverage, dB leverage, pressure impacting mechanics, down and distance, etc?

I found the 1 video upthread to do a lot of cherrypicking.

ESPN isn't my benchmark. Chris Simms isn't foolproof because he played the position. If he were, he'd have been a better pro.
 
powda said:
Understood and I try to give weight to more educated opinions. That said, I'm always open to learn. Lots of videos focus on the qb in the pocket and it doesn't seem many ALSO describe what's happening downfield. What kinda coverage, dB leverage, pressure impacting mechanics, down and distance, etc?

I found the 1 video upthread to do a lot of cherrypicking.

ESPN isn't my benchmark. Chris Simms isn't foolproof because he played the position. If he were, he'd have been a better pro.
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Very true, Id take a look at the three part series that Jordan Palmer did on CJ. He highlights the defense, the read, where ball should go, then focuses on mechanics and what the qb does then evaluates....but he's not there just for the highlights he shows and highlights the mistakes as well...just a suggestion
 
powda said:
Understood and I try to give weight to more educated opinions. That said, I'm always open to learn. Lots of videos focus on the qb in the pocket and it doesn't seem many ALSO describe what's happening downfield. What kinda coverage, dB leverage, pressure impacting mechanics, down and distance, etc?

I found the 1 video upthread to do a lot of cherrypicking.

ESPN isn't my benchmark. Chris Simms isn't foolproof because he played the position. If he were, he'd have been a better pro.
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This is who I like listening to. Very informative imo.




 
Porky said:
I’m a down the middle guy. I see what I see and say what I say based on those observations agenda free. I bashed the Texans for years because it was deserved. If you can’t see that the worm has turned and this org is turning a corner with the arrow pointing up, you’re either blind as a bat…or you have an agenda.

That said, Stroud is a huge short/mid term key to the overall success of the team. As a rookie, he’s bound to wet the bed more than once. But after nearly 50 years of watching QB play, I have developed an innate sense that tells me which rookies can work their way through their follies and become stars like P Manning..,which ones have a low/mid starter ceiling but can play and stick around…and which ones will soon be busts and relegated to the bench, or worse. I’d be shocked if Stroud busts. For me, it’s how high is the ceiling? His rookie campaign will leave a ton of breadcrumbs, and year two will tell us where that ceiling lies. Let’s hope it’s high!
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I see ownership still meddling in personnel decisions. Nothing has changed down on Kirby. Never will change as long as the McNair's own the team. No agenda here.
 
76Texan said:
It wasn't entirely false.

His numbers did take a nose dive under pressure.

The thing is that those situations often coincide with tight windows, or no receiver open, or a drop by the receiver or a tough catch that some college receivers couldn't handle.
Sometimes the receivers weren't on the same page on the scramble drill.
Sometimes, CJ had to throw them away.
Sometimes he had to throw the ball to a safe place (which also make it harder to catch).

They add together to make it look worse than what actually transpired.
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I like this post. I hadn't thought of it this way. The most important thing he didn't do in the face of pressure was throw a lot of picks. That hurts a lot worse than throwing the ball away or to where only the receiver has a shot at it.
 
Texansballer74 said:
Every quarterback struggles in a murky dirty pocket. Their numbers are going to plummet. As far as CJ is concerned the sample size wasn’t massive at all. That oline was just that good. But the defenses will win some of the times. Top level defenses like Michigan will apply heavy pressure on any opposing quarterbacks. Even the GOAT struggled against top notch defenses who gets after the quarterback.
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To your point. To this day, what defenses gave Brady the most trouble? It was defenses who pushed the pocket and brought pressure up the middle. In other words, they made Brady uncomfortable by dirtying the pocket. If this is an issue, Caserio knows exactly how they protected Brady and will do the same for Stroud.
 
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Lucky said:
What are CJ's numbers under pressure?
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OK, so first off, a disclaimer. I'm not a huge fan of PFF grades.

And I'm about to use PFF grades.

I feel so dirty...

According to PFF, his grade with no pressure was 92.9 but his pressure grade was 43.9.

Bryce Young: 93.2/67.5
Anthony Richardson: 84.5/41.9
Will Levis: 71.7/54.1
Stetson Bennet: 90.9/60.8

I felt like this year was another 2022, where there wasn't any QBs that checked enough boxes to go early in the first round with Bryce Young the closest one, except for his size.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
OK, so first off, a disclaimer. I'm not a huge fan of PFF grades.

And I'm about to use PFF grades.

I feel so dirty...

According to PFF, his grade with no pressure was 92.9 but his pressure grade was 43.9.

Bryce Young: 93.2/67.5
Anthony Richardson: 84.5/41.9
Will Levis: 71.7/54.1
Stetson Bennet: 90.9/60.8

I felt like this year was another 2022, where there wasn't any QBs that checked enough boxes to go early in the first round with Bryce Young the closest one, except for his size.
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Yes, I saw the PFF "grades". But what are the actual numbers? I can make my own inferences from those. Really, I would like a list of "fails" and "pressures" from PFF so I could cross check.

Anthony Richardson, with his putrid raw numbers, had an 84.5 grade on non-pressure passes? How could that be possible?
 
The Pencil Neck said:
What's interesting is that even though Brady's percentage rate dropped the most when under pressure, his under pressure completion percentage was still the second highest of all those QBs listed.
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Of those listed. PFF said that Brady's completion % was 21st of 29 under pressure. Which begs the question? What is and what is not considered a pressure. And can that be uniform, considering different people scout different games. Kind of like different umpires have different strike zones.

Maybe a lot of this is over analysis. Are the QB's aggregate numbers good? Does his team move the ball and put points on the board? Does he win games? You really don't need a bunch of couch scouts to know that Tom Brady is damn good.
 
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Lucky said:
Yes, I saw the PFF "grades". But what are the actual numbers? I can make my own inferences from those. Really, I would like a list of "fails" and "pressures" from PFF so I could cross check.

Anthony Richardson, with his putrid raw numbers, had an 84.5 grade on non-pressure passes? How could that be possible?
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Lucky said:
Of those listed. PFF said that Brady's completion % was 21st of 29 under pressure. Which begs the question? What is and what is not considered a pressure. And can that be uniform, considering different people scout different games. Kind of like different different umpires have different strike zones.

Maybe a lot of this is over analysis. Are the QB's aggregate numbers good? Does his team move the ball and put points on the board? Does he win games? You really don't need a bunch of couch scouts to know that Tom Brady is damn good.
Click to expand...

This is why I don't trust PFFs numbers. I don't know that they're consistently defining things or if they're defining things the way I would like them to be defined.

Stroud had a good enough O-Line that he normally had a pretty clean pocket and as I had said earlier, it may be that he just needs a little more experience working in those pressured situations in order to get better at it. It may be that because he wasn't using his feet when he had the chance it was decreasing his score.

I don't know. I'm not a scout and I'm not going to pretend that I am one. I'm not going to watch a ton of tape on every possible draft pick. I don't have that kind of time, and I'm not sure I'd even know what I was seeing when I was looking at it. I'm not going to watch a couple of games and think I have enough information on every guy that played in those games. Because of that, I've got to rely on what "experts" are saying to form an opinion.

For Stroud, this was the "one thing" that was a possible red flag, but it seems like a bad red flag to have to me. I don't expect him to have as much time to throw as he had in college, and I don't expect his pockets to be as clean. If he can't perform in those situations, then maybe we would have been better with Stetson Bennet with his 90/60 pressure/no pressure grade.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
This is why I don't trust PFFs numbers. I don't know that they're consistently defining things or if they're defining things the way I would like them to be defined.

Stroud had a good enough O-Line that he normally had a pretty clean pocket and as I had said earlier, it may be that he just needs a little more experience working in those pressured situations in order to get better at it. It may be that because he wasn't using his feet when he had the chance it was decreasing his score.

I don't know. I'm not a scout and I'm not going to pretend that I am one. I'm not going to watch a ton of tape on every possible draft pick. I don't have that kind of time, and I'm not sure I'd even know what I was seeing when I was looking at it. I'm not going to watch a couple of games and think I have enough information on every guy that played in those games. Because of that, I've got to rely on what "experts" are saying to form an opinion.

For Stroud, this was the "one thing" that was a possible red flag, but it seems like a bad red flag to have to me. I don't expect him to have as much time to throw as he had in college, and I don't expect his pockets to be as clean. If he can't perform in those situations, then maybe we would have been better with Stetson Bennet with his 90/60 pressure/no pressure grade.
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One of the reasons I had Hendon Hooker so high. He was a running QB at Virginia Tech and become a solid pocket passer at Tennessee. He's an accurate passer with the ability to bring the ball down and run. He's getting close to returning to the field in Detroit. Crazy, but Detroit was supposedly looking to trade Goff in the off-season. No takers for the money, so Goff will carry the torch again this season. Could be an interesting situation come the Bye-Week if Detroit isn't hitting on all cylinders.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
This is why I don't trust PFFs numbers. I don't know that they're consistently defining things or if they're defining things the way I would like them to be defined.

Stroud had a good enough O-Line that he normally had a pretty clean pocket and as I had said earlier, it may be that he just needs a little more experience working in those pressured situations in order to get better at it. It may be that because he wasn't using his feet when he had the chance it was decreasing his score.

I don't know. I'm not a scout and I'm not going to pretend that I am one. I'm not going to watch a ton of tape on every possible draft pick. I don't have that kind of time, and I'm not sure I'd even know what I was seeing when I was looking at it. I'm not going to watch a couple of games and think I have enough information on every guy that played in those games. Because of that, I've got to rely on what "experts" are saying to form an opinion.

For Stroud, this was the "one thing" that was a possible red flag, but it seems like a bad red flag to have to me. I don't expect him to have as much time to throw as he had in college, and I don't expect his pockets to be as clean. If he can't perform in those situations, then maybe we would have been better with Stetson Bennet with his 90/60 pressure/no pressure grade.
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I don't believe in PFF either. They are one tool to use when putting the puzzle together, not the be all end all that Mr. Spreadsheet guy worships at the altar of.
 
thunderkyss said:
This is 2023. There is life before the NFL.
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steelbtexan said:
Had these guys already signed their 1st NFL contract before they started living that lifestyle?
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There was always life for these type of guys before the NFL…and most if not all of these guys were living that party lifestyle well before they reached the pros b/c That’s ALWAYS been the life of the BMOC.

it’s just nowadays you can learn about what these guys are doing off the field much more easily than you could back then b/c of social media. Hell it’s gotten even easier since Big Ben came out & he came out in 2004.
 
Mr teX said:
There was always life for these type of guys before the NFL…and most if not all of these guys were living that party lifestyle well before they reached the pros b/c That’s ALWAYS been the life of the BMOC.

it’s just nowadays you can learn about what these guys are doing off the field much more easily than you could back then b/c of social media. Hell it’s gotten even easier since Big Ben came out & he came out in 2004.
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true that.

But what I was getting at is that these guys are celebrities based off their college careers. Their image & likeness (their brand) is made before they even enter the draft.
 
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Lucky said:
What are CJ's numbers under pressure?
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According to PFF, his completion percentage while under pressure was some 46%.
But that alone can't explain the low grade they gave him, given that:
Only 2 of 6 of his INTs were under duress.
He took only 12 sacks (or 3% of the attempts), which was among the best in the last few years.
fantasyindex.com

C.J. Stroud - Sack rate numbers for the top QB prospects - Fantasy Index

Sack rate numbers for the top QB prospects
fantasyindex.com fantasyindex.com

It seems to me like they couldn't find much fault so they just scrutinize the smallest of things.
 
76Texan said:
According to PFF, his completion percentage while under pressure was some 46%.
But that alone can't explain the low grade they gave him, given that:
Only 2 of 6 of his INTs were under duress.
He took only 12 sacks (or 3% of the attempts), which was among the best in the last few years.
fantasyindex.com

C.J. Stroud - Sack rate numbers for the top QB prospects - Fantasy Index

Sack rate numbers for the top QB prospects
fantasyindex.com fantasyindex.com

It seems to me like they couldn't find much fault so they just scrutinize the smallest of things.
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Exactly my point right here. But to some that small sample is freaking huge to the point of them saying, “ that’s the biggest knock on him”.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
One of the reasons I had Hendon Hooker so high. He was a running QB at Virginia Tech and become a solid pocket passer at Tennessee. He's an accurate passer with the ability to bring the ball down and run. He's getting close to returning to the field in Detroit. Crazy, but Detroit was supposedly looking to trade Goff in the off-season. No takers for the money, so Goff will carry the torch again this season. Could be an interesting situation come the Bye-Week if Detroit isn't hitting on all cylinders.
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Rams were trying to trade Stafford not Lions trying to trade Goff.
 
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