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2023 TEXANS DRAFT DISCUSSION

Texansballer74 said:
No he didn’t. This new test is very young. Crazy how people are judging players off of skit they have no earthly clue about.
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Did Deshawn take a Cognitive Ability Test?

Yeah, I’d like to know exactly what’s in this S2 test.
I’d also like to know why it replaced other testing material.
 
Lucky said:
Young scores well on the S2. That makes sense, if the S2 correlates to QB decision making.

Will Levis scores well on the S2. That doesn't make a lot of sense, if the S2 correlates to QB decision making.

CJ Stroud scores...an 18? CJ Stroud, the guy with a career 1.4% INT rate?

I would need more info to see how exactly the S2 correlates to NFL QBs. Because it doesn't seem to correlate to college QBs very consistently.
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I haven't watched anything but highlights, so I can't really say. But, objectively looking at the numbers it says what's been said. Will Levis didn't have the luxury CJ Stroud had.
 
cuppacoffee said:
That doesn't make sense. :confused: If the Texans don't want to draft him what does it benefit them to smear him?

Counter productive to any chance of having someone wanting to trade up for him.

:coffee:
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In the scenario you quoted Stroud tells the Texans he won't play for them in the player visit.
 
thunderkyss said:
I haven't watched anything but highlights, so I can't really say. But, objectively looking at the numbers it says what's been said. Will Levis didn't have the luxury CJ Stroud had.
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Yeah, I can’t help but wonder how Richardson would be looked at if he played at BAMA or Ohio St…
 
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Lucky said:
My understanding is that the S2 test reaction times and other things via a keyboard while looking at a video screen. More like a video game than a playbook. S2 also offers tutorials that can increase you "skills". I read in the Athletic that Bryce Young has been taking these test since HS. Why is the NFL so gung ho on the S2? Because Mahomes, Burrow, and Allen did well on them. Did everyone that scored well become a good NFL QB? I doubt it. I don't think the developers of the tests claim that.
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What makes a good NFL QB is a mashup of multiple factors. Some "nature" and some "nurture" in there. I suspect (but can't prove) that everything can go right for you up to the point you get drafted. Then if Cleveland or Detroit (or Houston I suppose) pick you it can all be for nothing and your career will go down the toilet in no time at all. No QB should have been taken by the Texans in 2002 almost regardless of who was available. Now we're seeing young men come into the league who have been testing (like you said with Young) for years. Does the test measure possibilities or does it just show that they are good at taking this kind of test?

Those three (Mahomes, Burrow, and Allen) are all good cases for caring about but I'd like to see what all of the players tested for as long as we can possibly get data on it did.

Maybe some prospects who scored high did poorly when they got to the NFL for other reasons? Is there another explanation (like went to a no-win scenario "QB graveyard") for that or did they have every opportunity to succeed but washed out. Need more information.
 
Lucky said:
My understanding is that the S2 test reaction times and other things via a keyboard while looking at a video screen. More like a video game than a playbook. S2 also offers tutorials that can increase you "skills". I read in the Athletic that Bryce Young has been taking these test since HS. Why is the NFL so gung ho on the S2? Because Mahomes, Burrow, and Allen did well on them. Did everyone that scored well become a good NFL QB? I doubt it. I don't think the developers of the tests claim that.
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The originator of the test has admitted that "preparation" is a significant factor in scoring well on the S2. There should be no wonder that a player taking the test for years would be expected to have a great scoring advantage.

A single test/factor, without additional factors being considered, will not predict a QB's success in the NFL...............which team and their supporting cast the QB is placed with, and/or offensive schemes are overwhelming factors well-accepted to be a QB's success driver.

Most don't remember when the Wonderlic first came out, it was presented as the Holy Grail to predict success............today, after many years of data and analysis, it is considered closer to a joke.
 
On Hooker:

PROJECTED: Rounds 1-2

The SEC Offensive Player of the Year and a third-team AP All-American in 2022, Hooker was one of the best stories in college football before an ACL tear in November ended his season.

“The guy that people are really sleeping on because of the ACL is Hendon Hooker,” an AFC scout said. “The guy was having a great f------ year, man. He was killing it. He’s a little bit older (Hooker turned 25 in January), but he’s mature and he can run into the huddle and lead men and have a presence about himself.”

Said an NFC quarterbacks coach: “Hooker is maybe my favorite one out of everybody. He’s so cool. And he throws the ball. I thought I was just going to see a bunch of bubble screens and stuff that you normally see out of those types of offenses. He pushes the ball downfield (and) throws seam routes as well as anybody.”

In 24 games (22 starts) for the Volunteers after transferring from Virginia Tech, Hooker completed 68.9 percent of his passes for 6,080 yards and 58 touchdowns with just five interceptions in Josh Heupel’s version of the Air Raid offense. He also ran for 1,046 yards and 10 more scores. He has NFL size (6-3 1/4, 217 pounds with 10 1/2-inch hands) and has been highly impressive in interviews.

Hooker is progressing through his rehab and remains on track to be cleared by the start of the regular season, though any team that drafts him surely would bring him along slowly. The biggest question is how he'll transition from Tennessee's unique offense to an NFL system.

“Fundamentally, that Tennessee offense is hard to evaluate because they’re kind of a gimmicky deal," an AFC coordinator said. "They just run a super wide spread set, they run a lot of plays that are coverage beaters, and they play with those really wide splits. The quarterback takes the same drop all the time. So you’re watching it [thinking], His development at this level will be playing in a progression offense, learning how to play within the rhythm and timing of a play. But he’s a smooth thrower. He’s got a quick release. Liked all the elements of him throwing the ball. The only development with him would be learning how to play in a real NFL offense, as opposed to that offense where you play 'pick a side' and you’re throwing to really fast guys.”

That was a change from the more rigid, timing-based scheme Hooker ran under former coach Justin Fuente at Virginia Tech, where Hooker played in 25 games (15 starts) from 2018 through 2020 and wasn’t nearly as efficient as a passer, leaning more on his running ability (1,033 yards, 15 TDs).

"With the weird-ass offense at Tennessee that Heupel’s running, [Hooker] said he was able to play more loose because the receivers are the ones having to read all the coverages out on the perimeter when they’re way out past the numbers,” an NFC scout said. “They were playing a game within a game.”

Hooker’s play and leadership during two years in Knoxville overshadowed some of the questions that scouts had surrounding his exit from Virginia Tech, where he left what ended up being his final game after fumbling twice on a cold day against Clemson and was seen on the TV broadcast visibly shaking on the sideline. (Hooker later said medicine used during a scope of his heart, performed for a lingering issue from COVID-19, "reactivated" and caused the reaction).

“It wouldn’t shock me if he ended up better than (Anthony Richardson and Will Levis)," an AFC QBs coach said. "The two offenses he’s played in in college don’t look like NFL offenses. But he plays fast within what they ask him to do there, and he’s mature and he’s got leadership ability and he’s got clean mechanics and he can run. When it’s third down and they know you’re passing and you’ve got to climb the pocket and progress through a full-field read -- those are the things he’s just going to need reps at, and he’s not going to get them early because of his knee. But the flip side of that coin is it could be good. Now he has some time to take a back seat and learn some of these things and get experience. I don’t question the capacity for him to grow in that area, because he’s really an impressive kid and I think he has the ability to do it.”
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Levis:

PROJECTED: Round 1

If Levis were drafted off his 2021 tape alone, he might've been in the mix for the No. 1 pick. But the Wildcats offense had a talent gap even before Levis began battling injuries during his redshirt senior season, leaving coaches unable to operate the way they had planned and putting Levis' draft stock in limbo.

“He’s ‘sliding’ or whatever, which is kind of bizarre. I think people secretly like him and want to see him slide,” an AFC scout said. “Levis has played in a pro-style offense the last two years: call the huddle, call the full NFL play, make the checks at the line of scrimmage. Big arm, super tough, built like a linebacker, got a cannon. Knows pro-style reads. I think he was stuck trying to force some things [last] year, but he didn’t have the pieces around him like he did in the past. It sounds like he’s already a pro, living the pro lifestyle. He’s a Type-A guy, too. He [had] his whole day planned out to like the minute at Kentucky. Highly driven, highly motivated. You go out to practice (and) he looks like an NFL quarterback.”

In two years with the Wildcats, Levis (6-3 7/8, 229 pounds) completed 65.7 percent of his passes for 5,233 yards and 43 touchdowns with 23 interceptions while being coached by NFL-influenced coordinators Liam Coen and Rich Scangarello. His former coaches vouch for him as a player and a leader. He was another top performer on the S2 Cognition test.

“Levis had the unfortunate roller coaster of getting so much buildup from his previous season and then not winning as much this past year,” an NFC coordinator said. “But really, I know he played not quite as well, but it’s not like it fell off completely. He still demonstrates that he can make every throw. Can he protect the ball well enough down in and down out? Can he play loose enough in some of those critical situations? The way he plays, the style of person, the workout guy, eating bananas with the peel on them -- he’s just a little tightly wound.”

Levis missed one game last season and was limited the second half of the year by a severe turf toe ailment and an injury to his left (non-throwing) shoulder. Both issues required weekly injections, prevented him from practicing full-speed for roughly a month and effectively eliminated all the QB movement from an offense that leans heavily on it. (Levis ran for nine touchdowns as a junior and just two last season.)

“[He] definitely is confident and will tell you he’s confident," another NFC coordinator said. "He’s got a monster arm. Little robotic at times. You see him run around sometimes in college and try to be physical and finish runs. At this level, they’re going to break you in half, and you won’t have a very long career.”

Poise is a common question about Levis, who has generated mixed reactions from his pre-draft meetings. He’s known as very coachable, but his personality isn’t for everyone. Several coaches brought up the viability of his noticeably muscular frame, which contributes to a sometimes unnatural-looking delivery.

“He’s got all the tools, but everything’s a fastball,” an NFC quarterbacks coach said. “He’s a little bit of a different character. ... But he’s smart. The cool thing about his tape is he’s under center throwing strike routes. You can see if he gets into a Kubiak/Shanahan system, he’s done that on tape, so he can do it (in the NFL). If he can just learn to relax -- it’s like he’s so forced all the time, with everything. He wants [to succeed] really bad, and I think he feels pressure because he didn’t have a great year [in 2022]. Right now, (it seems like) he’s putting so much pressure on himself. I think if he just takes a deep breath and relaxes, you can see he can do it.”

Said an NFC scout: “The way he plays the game is super mechanical. He has obvious arm talent. It’s just the release -- you can see it in the pro day, there’s a certain I’m throwing the ball on this step on my rollout-type situation where it just doesn’t look natural. And then just the game tape, he doesn’t feel things as naturally as any of those other (top) guys. Pocket presence isn’t there.”

Teams also have dug into why Levis couldn’t win the job at Penn State over the less-talented Sean Clifford, who is regarded as a priority free agent in this draft class.

"Never was consistent enough there either to do it," another NFC scout said. "It's just his physical traits beyond his strong arm, athletic, probably a little too muscular so he has stiffness to him at times. His (issue) is just the processing, man. Three offenses in three years. At times he can get streaky and get hot. He's always trying to be perfect. He just needs to go out there and let it rip."
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Can't help but keep coming back to this interview:

Brandon Ally, co-founder of S2 Cognition:

Yeah, so just to address the quarterback thing, I would say that we're obviously aware of scores being leaked, and we're not sure where that's coming from, but I will say that take some of those with a grain of salt. We have seen, "Hey, so and so scored the highest in the class, or the highest ever, and so and so scored low." And it's like, "Yeah, that's not true." But with that being said, I will say that this class as a whole, all the guys in the discussion, have scored really, really well.
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And if I'm a general manager, it's more likely that I'm going to use this tool if I love two players the same, we love their physical makeup, we love their psychological makeup, we had great interviews with them, one has a high S2, the other has a modest S2... It could be a separator from that perspective.
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Jack Burton said:
The S2 test has been in the NFL for 7 years?!?!
Jeez…
Thank you for that. I had no idea.
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I just tried to pull Jalen Hurts results. No information. This is the first year I’ve ever heard about this S2 stuff
But here is his Wonderlic score:
Jalen Hurts (Philadelphia Eagles)

The Alabama QB attained his bachelor's degree in public relations within three years (December 2018) before he transferred to play at Oklahoma. His Wonderlic test score from the 2020 NFL Combine was 18/50 (below average).
 
Texansphan said:
Stroud reportedly scored a lowly 18 on his S2, but is known for his quick decision making in-game.
Go figure.
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"...is known for..." ? Perhaps the knowing is incomplete. If he's in rythem and on schedule, perhaps he's good. He's also known for being not so good under pressure. The test may indicate why.
 
Generic Fan said:
Which is worse?

Drafting a QB high who ends up being below average or worse?
or
Not drafting a QB who ends up being a franchise QB?
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Zero percent chance of getting a franchise QB if you don't draft a QB.

Texansballer74 said:
No he didn’t. This new test is very young. Crazy how people are judging players off of skit they have no earthly clue about.
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And yet there's NFL teams doing just that.
The draft is a crapshoot. If there's something out there that might be able to help the process, someone's probably going to try it. Who knows how this all plays out in the end? Maybe it ends up having some merit, maybe it's still nothing more than blindly throwing darts at a dartboard, pretty much like it's always been. There's a lot at stake, particularly when drafting QBs high in the draft, and team's would be fools not to turn over every stone possible in helping them make a better decision.

Jack Burton said:
The S2 test has been in the NFL for 7 years?!?!
Jeez…
Thank you for that. I had no idea.
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And so far, not all high scores have gone on to be great QBs, but zero low scores have.
 
Again, I'm no fan of Stroud's, but I don't believe his S2 score of the 18th percentile. But the only way this score could have any semblance of accuracy is if it were a fraudulent representation of the final score.............while presenting the subscore of only 1 of the 9 skill levels the test evaluates. If this were the case, Stroud could have easily still scored very high on his final test score.


From the S2 Cognition Test website:

While the S2 Cognitive Test may not be a brand new technology, it's implementation in the NFL is certainly new and it is set to transform the way team's use player data to analyze the potential future success of a quarterback.

What is the S2 Cognition Test?
The S2 Cognition test measures an athlete's cognitive skill set while breaking down their decision-making process.
It does not test for IQ or any sort of intelligence, instead it tests nine different cognitive skills for quarterbacks.

These are: perception speed, search efficiency, tracking capacity, visual learning, instinctive learning, decision complexity, distraction control, impulse control, improvisation.
 
Speedy said:
Zero percent chance of getting a franchise QB if you don't draft a QB.



And yet there's NFL teams doing just that.
The draft is a crapshoot. If there's something out there that might be able to help the process, someone's probably going to try it. Who knows how this all plays out in the end? Maybe it ends up having some merit, maybe it's still nothing more than blindly throwing darts at a dartboard, pretty much like it's always been. There's a lot at stake, particularly when drafting QBs high in the draft, and team's would be fools not to turn over every stone possible in helping them make a better decision.



And so far, not all high scores have gone on to be great QBs, but zero low scores have.
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This is the important part here
 
Howie Roseman says for NFL GMs, “it’s all a guess” what will happen in the draft
Posted by Michael David Smith on April 21, 2023, 10:51 AM EDT



General Manager Howie Roseman acknowledges that in the run-up to the draft, he’s not going to tell the media or the fans what he’s planning to do. And even if he did, plans can quickly go awry on draft night.

Roseman said he and the NFL’s 31 other GMs are all bluffing to some extent as they talk about their plans for the draft, but even if Roseman were to give away his expectation for Thursday night’s first round, all it takes is one team ahead of him making a move he’s not anticipating for the whole plan to go up in smoke.

“This is a huge game of poker,” Roseman said, “and all you want to affect is the outcome of your desired results. Am I going to give you guys any answers today? No. Not even a little bit. But I think the reality of it is anyone who is sitting there and saying,
‘Hey, I know exactly what is going to happen at pick 11 or pick 12 or pick 6 or 20, it’s all a guess.”

The Eagles currently own the 10th pick and 30th pick in the first round, their own second- and third-round picks, and two seventh-round picks. Roseman said he hopes to find a difference-maker with his first pick and take it from there.

“I think the most important thing when you’re picking in the first round, and certainly when you’re picking 10, is that you get a unique player for our team,” Roseman said. “We understand how important it is to get this right and how do you get it right? You get a unique player. I think if you start saying, ‘Hey, we can get a unique player, but it’s got to be this position,’ then you really narrow your options right there. Just trying to be as open-minded as possible about what that looks like and making sure that whoever we pick is somebody that we think can really impact the game.”

Who that unique player at No. 10 will be, Roseman doesn’t know. And even if he did know, he wouldn’t tell.
 
Texansballer74 said:
I just tried to pull Jalen Hurts results. No information. This is the first year I’ve ever heard about this S2 stuff
But here is his Wonderlic score:
Jalen Hurts (Philadelphia Eagles)

The Alabama QB attained his bachelor's degree in public relations within three years (December 2018) before he transferred to play at Oklahoma. His Wonderlic test score from the 2020 NFL Combine was 18/50 (below average).
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Well then he will never amount to nothing. I heard that his favorite number is 51.
 
Dang less than a week to go, und I’m more undecided than before if it was me who would “I” pick. I must think faster and more decisive but I’m failing at doing so. Ohh crap I just realized I would probably fail the S2 Test, lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
I know, I know, as a QB, you scored ultra high in the S2 Cognition Test. But you also have to know that there are other factors that must be considered. So how successful do you honestly think you will be when you reach the NFL?

827bd-6-monty-python-and-the-holy-grail-quotes.gif
 
pirbroke said:
Dang less than a week to go, und I’m more undecided than before if it was me who would “I” pick. I must think faster and more decisive but I’m failing at doing so. Ohh crap I just realized I would probably fail the S2 Test, lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Wait how tall are you and how do you Handle pressure?
 
What are the NFL rules concerning approaching a player before the draft. If you have the number 1 pick, is it "legal" (in NFL terms and rules) to "pick" ahead of the draft? Has that ever happened?
 
corry said:
Wouldn't be the game I would cite. I will just assume you never watched that game lol.
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4 times but I did it objectively, without bias and believed what my eyes were telling me. When I see a QB under pressure, falling backward, on the wrong leg heaving a wounded duck that gets his #1 WR destroyed, and the season's data says the QB does not perform well under pressure, I see it as a case and point that illustrates very well the QB does not perform well under pressure. BTW this wasn't the only time this happened in this game. It also happened in the Michigan game too, a team he was never able to beat.
 
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Speedy said:
And so far, not all high scores have gone on to be great QBs, but zero low scores have.
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I thought I had read that they went back to the 2016 draft and tried the test the QB's since then, not that they have been doing this at every draft for every QB the past 7 years. So when they say they have data that shows all the good NFL QB's have high scores and all the not good NFL QB's have low scores, they could be tainting their own metrics depending on who was actually willing to participate.
 
sandman said:
So when they say they have data that shows all the good NFL QB's have high scores and all the not good NFL QB's have low scores, they could be tainting their own metrics depending on who was actually willing to participate
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I don't think that was ever said. It was QB's that performed well had high scores not every QB that had a high score performed well. But no QB that had a low score performed well, nor did all QB's that did not perform well have a low score
 
I can see Carolina leaking the S2 scores to prep the Panther fans on why they are drafting Young.

I can also see Bobby Slowik having his eyes on Haener, Bennett, and trading for Corral.
 
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JB said:
I don't think that was ever said. It was QB's that performed well had high scores not every QB that had a high score performed well. But no QB that had a low score performed well, nor did all QB's that did not perform well have a low score
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OK, I thought that a big selling point of their test was that all high performing NFL QB's scored well. But what I am hearing is that there are NFL QB's who scored high but haven't necessarily performed well. Which in reality, at the time of the draft a high score means nothing because there is no NFL experience to assess for a "sure thing". It doesn't really provide any more insight into the probability of being a good QB than the Wunderlic. It is simply another assessment.
 
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