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College production comparisons DE/Edge

Texansphan said:
Some people understand draft grades and rankings, and some people don't.
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Some people watch games and form their own opinions. They don't pay attention to other people's rankings or grades. These rankings should be used as a guide for people to look at and form their own opinions based off of their play and projecting what you think they can become.
 
Texian said:
Glad you asked. When you look at a stat sheet it is very easy to assume someone is average if you don't understand how defenses really work. Take Thibodeaux and Hutchinson for example, they always are lined up in a 7 or 9 technique position. This means that they line up at least 1 or 2 full gaps away from the OT. They're not lined up with a player directly in front of them. This is considered being an edge rusher. There main responsibility is to rush the passer. Edge rushers should be the sack leaders on every stat sheet. That's their job.

Now take Travon Walker who played in Georgia's 3-4 defense. Walker was 3 or 4 technique DE. Walker usually lined up between the OG and OT or on the inside shoulder of the OT. He would also lineup on the OT outside shoulder. Walker was primarily responsible for setting the edge, not letting QBs and RBs get to the outside and turn the corner. Or as Bill Belichick would say, if you can't protect the edge you don't have a defense.

A perfect example of setting the edge is when LSU played Johnny Manziel and Texas A&M twice. At that time, Manziel was running around beating up teams with his great scrambling abilities (Still the most exciting college player I've watched). LSU beat Johnny Manziel twice because they were able to set the edge. Against LSU Manziel was never able to escape the pocket. LSU basically took away his magic wand. Georgia pretty much did the same thing to Alabama and was able to do the same thing to Bryce Young.

Walker was more of an edge setter than he was a pure pass rusher. On passing downs Walker would often line up as the NT in the 0 gap, right over the center. It was also not uncommon for Walker because of his great athleticism to drop back into pass coverage. So in essence, Hutchinson and Thibodeaux saw far more snaps as pure edge rushers compared to Walker who had far fewer. These are the same reasons why JJ Watt only had 7 sacks in his last year in Wisconsin.

You can tell the Georgia defensive players were not allowed to free lance and were strictly responsible for playing their assigned gap control. This was evident when DeVonte Wyatt tore it up, was unblockable and the star of Senior Bowl when they completely turned him loose. Before the Senior Bowl and Combine nobody knew who DeVonte Wyatt was. Now imagine if Walker was completely turned loose, lined up as 7 or 9 technique on every play with his sole responsibility to only rush the passer.
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Great explanation.
 
steelbtexan said:
Some people watch games and form their own opinions. They don't pay attention to other people's rankings or grades. These rankings should be used as a guide for people to look at and form their own opinions based off of their play and projecting what you think they can become.
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I imagine the experts whose job it is to assess draftees and whose livelihoods depend on being accurate do all those things - and have direct contact and access to all the good stuff and in most instances sit through actual games.
Us armchair experts barely scratch the surface compared to them.
Me, I'll go along with the experts consensus.
 
Texansphan said:
I imagine the experts whose job it is to assess draftees and whose livelihoods depend on being accurate do all those things - and have direct contact and access to all the good stuff and in most instances sit through actual games.
Us armchair experts barely scratch the surface compared to them.
Me, I'll go along with the experts consensus.
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I choose to do my own evals.

I certainly can understand your line of thinking. This is what makes this time of yr so interesting. I Really like seeing how these guys have done after 3 yrs. That usually tells you what type of career these guys will have.
 
Texian said:
Walker will be much more productive in the pros than he was in college. DCs will put a premium on Walker's athleticism and rushing the passer. Hutchinson will likely be less productive in the pros because of his arm length and footwork. The reason Texans OL coach George Warhop wants OT with 34" arms is to prevent DE's with long arms from getting inside the shoulders and gaining leverage. Kavon Thibodeaux, who knows, he comes with lots of hype, but he never had a season with double digit sacks. Thibodeaux also comes with a ME attitude.
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Yeah. I just have a lot of reservations about Hutchinson and Thibodeaux. Especially at 3. I just wonder if the other 2 teams above HOU think the same. I will not be surprised in the least if both are available at 3.
 
Texian said:
IMO I think Alabama's Will Anderson is #1 on the 2023 draft board but strongly agree Carter and Neal are BIG time studs.
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CORRECTION: Bryce Young will be #1 on the 2023 draft board. Will Anderson will be the 3rd pick right behind C.J. Stroud. Caleb Williams is #1 on the 2024 draft board. TIA
 
Texian said:
CORRECTION: Bryce Young will be #1 on the 2023 draft board. Will Anderson will be the 3rd pick right behind C.J. Stroud. Caleb Williams is #1 on the 2024 draft board. TIA
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Anderson and Mayer are studs.

It sure would be a great thing if Mills continues to progress, so some great talent can be added.
 
steelbtexan said:
I choose to do my own evals.

I certainly can understand your line of thinking. This is what makes this time of yr so interesting. I Really like seeing how these guys have done after 3 yrs. That usually tells you what type of career these guys will have.
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3 years is a good time to evaluate a drafted player. Some guys pop before then though, but overrall I agree.
 
steelbtexan said:
I choose to do my own evals.

I certainly can understand your line of thinking. This is what makes this time of yr so interesting. I Really like seeing how these guys have done after 3 yrs. That usually tells you what type of career these guys will have.
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I understand that and do a bit of my own evaluations also.
I might add that I prefer the expertise of those more intimately acquainted with all the aspects of the process. For instance, I wouldn't attempt to tell an engineer how to do his job.
 
Texansphan said:
I understand that and do a bit of my own evaluations also.
I might add that I prefer the expertise of those more intimately acquainted with all the aspects of the process. For instance, I wouldn't attempt to tell an engineer how to do his job.
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RS wasn't an engineer.

This isn't brain surgery.
 
Texansphan said:
Engineers aren't brain surgeons.
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No they aren't.

Drafting good players isn't as difficult as some would like you to believe, if you are willing to put the work in.

Of course I grew up listening to the greatest draftnik of all time and he didn't have the resources you're alluding to either. Although Belichick did try to hire him when Belichick was with the Browns.

RIP, Joel Buschbaum
 
steelbtexan said:
No they aren't.

Drafting good players isn't as difficult as some would like you to believe, if you are willing to put the work in.

Of course I grew up listening to the greatest draftnik of all time and he didn't have the resources you're alluding to either. Although Belichick did try to hire him when Belichick was with the Browns.

RIP, Joel Buschbaum
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Now this is interesting...
www.sharpfootballanalysis.com

FINAL 2022 NFL Mock Draft From Brendan Donahue | Sharp Football

NFL Draft Mock for every first-round draft pick for each team, featuring Evan Neal, Ikem Ekwonu & Trayvon Walker. Based on draft needs, available talent, GM tendencies & scheme fits.
www.sharpfootballanalysis.com www.sharpfootballanalysis.com
 
Texansphan said:
If we get Icky at #3 and Hamilton at #13, I will be pretty excited.
Worth a look - this mock is by the most accurate mocker over the last 5 drafts.
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My favorite Mock to date. If Hamilton could free-fall to 13….this could be the steal of RD1. By the way, Ekwonu would be an excellent pick since the Texans could plug him in at LG this season and move Howard to RT. Also, nothing would make me feel better than getting an athlete of Hamilton’s caliber and have him come to camp with a chip on his shoulder.

In this scenario I’d still pick OL, Van Demark (CT) and Stueber (MI) in RD6 to ensure the right depth for 2022 and potential starters in 2023.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
My favorite Mock to date. If Hamilton could free-fall to 13….this could be the steal of RD1. By the way, Ekwonu would be an excellent pick since the Texans could plug him in at LG this season and move Howard to RT. Also, nothing would make me feel better than getting an athlete of Hamilton’s caliber and have him come to camp with a chip on his shoulder.

In this scenario I’d still pick OL, Van Demark (CT) and Stueber (MI) in RD6 to ensure the right depth for 2022 and potential starters in 2023.
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What if somebody wants to trade up for Hamilton and offers you say 1-22 and 2-44 for the right to pick Hamilton, do you make the trade?
 
Texansphan said:
If we get Icky at #3 and Hamilton at #13, I will be pretty excited.
Worth a look - this mock is by the most accurate mocker over the last 5 drafts.
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If this brag is accurate, it is based only on the final mock before the draft. On previous mocks Donahue has had the Texans taking Hamilton and Thibodeaux. A typical play by mockers to keep the clicks coming in.
 
Number19 said:
If this brag is accurate, it is based only on the final mock before the draft. On previous mocks Donahue has had the Texans taking Hamilton and Thibodeaux. A typical play by mockers to keep the clicks coming in.
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I'm sure some teams will pay some of the more prominent mockers to make new ones - probably aimed at improving their own drafts.
 
steelbtexan said:
What if somebody wants to trade up for Hamilton and offers you say 1-22 and 2-44 for the right to pick Hamilton, do you make the trade?
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If Hamilton falls to 13 I am staying put and picking him. Its rare to get a player who could be top 10 in the league at his position as a rookie. Even more rare if you pick them outside the top 3-5 picks in the draft.

I want an extra second via trade down, but I am happy just taking the “bird in the hand” if a talent like Hamilton falls to 13.

PS: I feel the same way about Jordan Davis. Two unicorn players that will be top 10 but could fall to 13 due to positional value. I will take the unicorn and take my chances hitting on a pick in a later round for a solid player since I didn’t trade down.
 
TheRealJoker said:
If Hamilton falls to 13 I am staying put and picking him. Its rare to get a player who could be top 10 in the league at his position as a rookie. Even more rare if you pick them outside the top 3-5 picks in the draft.

I want an extra second via trade down, but I am happy just taking the “bird in the hand” if a talent like Hamilton falls to 13.

PS: I feel the same way about Jordan Davis. Two unicorn players that will be top 10 but could fall to 13 due to positional value. I will take the unicorn and take my chances hitting on a pick in a later round for a solid player since I didn’t trade down.
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Agreed, I'm just trying to get a feel for how other draftniks think and what they would do.

I've got 3 players I wouldn't trade down if they are there at 13. Davis/Wyatt/Hamilton.
 
TheRealJoker said:
If Hamilton falls to 13 I am staying put and picking him. Its rare to get a player who could be top 10 in the league at his position as a rookie. Even more rare if you pick them outside the top 3-5 picks in the draft.
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A little ot

My impression of past Patriot drafts is that they target players they want, then manage their picks to get those players.

So if the player they want most is Hamilton but think better value could be had if they trade down to 9, they would make the trade to 9 acquiring the extra pick.

If he's not there at 9, no big deal. They didn't want those other players. They have the extra pick.
 
steelbtexan said:
What if somebody wants to trade up for Hamilton and offers you say 1-22 and 2-44 for the right to pick Hamilton, do you make the trade?
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Hell yeah. I think we could possibly get another pick later as well, but yeah, I'm taking it. I don't see a huge difference in the top Safeties, and with Hamilton's lack of speed, I'd rather get one of the other guys anyway.
 
vtech9 said:
If Hamilton falls to 13, I'm hoping to trade down and pick up at least one more 2nd round pick.
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If Hamilton falls to #13, I'm taking him.
A difference maker in the backfield and the highest graded player in this draft.
If you get Neal or Ekwonu @ #3 and Hamilton #13, you have two guys that plug and play.
Then you can hunt for other DLs - like Travis Jones #37.
 
Texansphan said:
If Hamilton falls to #13, I'm taking him.
A difference maker in the backfield and the highest graded player in this draft.
If you get Neal or Ekwonu @ #3 and Hamilton #13, you have two guys that plug and play.
Then you can hunt for other DLs - like Travis Jones #37.
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We have too many holes. If we can trade down and get more picks, and still get Daxton Hill, Lewis Cine, Jaquan Brisker, or Jalen Pitre, I'm happy. Haven't we had enough of slow safeties getting beat over the top? Haven't we had enough of WR slants going the distance because our safety wasn't fast enough? I have.
 
vtech9 said:
We have too many holes. If we can trade down and get more picks, and still get Daxton Hill, Lewis Cine, Jaquan Brisker, or Jalen Pitre, I'm happy. Haven't we had enough of slow safeties getting beat over the top? Haven't we had enough of WR slants going the distance because our safety wasn't fast enough? I have.
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Keep in mind the further down you trade, the further down the quality tiers you fall and the greater the risk of busts.
 
vtech9 said:
We have too many holes. If we can trade down and get more picks, and still get Daxton Hill, Lewis Cine, Jaquan Brisker, or Jalen Pitre, I'm happy. Haven't we had enough of slow safeties getting beat over the top? Haven't we had enough of WR slants going the distance because our safety wasn't fast enough? I have.
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Kyle Hamilton Doesn't Meet Expectations At The Combine, But It Shouldn't Matter


Historically speaking, there aren’t many safeties who come remotely close as comparisons for Hamilton. He is, in large, a rare commodity.

Perhaps the three best all time examples (at least with combine data to back it up) of “jumbo safeties” who had a track record of success were former Denver Broncos star Steve Atwater, the late Washington Redskins great Sean Taylor and former Seattle Seahawks enforcer Kam Chancellor. An imperfect comparison from a size perspective, Hamilton is at least in the ballpark of those players.

www.si.com

Kyle Hamilton Doesn't Meet Expectations At The Combine, But It Shouldn't Matter

Notre Dame All-American Kyle Hamilton had an up-and-down combine, but shouldn't matter
www.si.com www.si.com

You should really read that article and the comparisons
 
vtech9 said:
We have too many holes. If we can trade down and get more picks, and still get Daxton Hill, Lewis Cine, Jaquan Brisker, or Jalen Pitre, I'm happy. Haven't we had enough of slow safeties getting beat over the top? Haven't we had enough of WR slants going the distance because our safety wasn't fast enough? I have.
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Track speed isn't everything. Haven't we seen enough of straight line 40-time merchants who don't have real football skills?

What Hamilton lacks in sprinter speed he more than makes up for in instincts, positioning, reading the play before and after the snap, and general football IQ. It's hard to miss as it's all over his game tape.
 
JB said:
Kyle Hamilton Doesn't Meet Expectations At The Combine, But It Shouldn't Matter


Historically speaking, there aren’t many safeties who come remotely close as comparisons for Hamilton. He is, in large, a rare commodity.

Perhaps the three best all time examples (at least with combine data to back it up) of “jumbo safeties” who had a track record of success were former Denver Broncos star Steve Atwater, the late Washington Redskins great Sean Taylor and former Seattle Seahawks enforcer Kam Chancellor. An imperfect comparison from a size perspective, Hamilton is at least in the ballpark of those players.

www.si.com

Kyle Hamilton Doesn't Meet Expectations At The Combine, But It Shouldn't Matter

Notre Dame All-American Kyle Hamilton had an up-and-down combine, but shouldn't matter
www.si.com www.si.com

You should really read that article and the comparisons
Click to expand...
That you tube video was pretty good too
 
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steelbtexan said:
I do.

He was the guy Lewis ran behind to win a SB with Dilfer at QB. Reed was great in his own right, but he played with Lewis/ Sirigusa/Adams etc... there was alot more talent on that side of the ball.
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Thats fair, but Reed erased td's and plays. Lewis wasn't the reason they won either sb, it was the defense vs the giants and Flacco on fire in the 2nd sb. I'm not debating your opinion. I just think you need playmakers at every level. I don't think Hamilton is the next Reed,Troy,or Thomas, but if the decision makers think that, then I think that guy erases plays and impacts the game at a high clip
 
leebigeztx said:
Thats fair, but Reed erased td's and plays. Lewis wasn't the reason they won either sb, it was the defense vs the giants and Flacco on fire in the 2nd sb. I'm not debating your opinion. I just think you need playmakers at every level. I don't think Hamilton is the next Reed,Troy,or Thomas, but if the decision makers think that, then I think that guy erases plays and impacts the game at a high clip
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Like I said, I wont debate you if you think Reed was more important/better. Both were great great players.
 
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