CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Jets - Watson
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Do you think Watson will accept a trade to the Jets?
- Thread starter thunderkyss
- Start date
But could be smoke and mirror.
No GM wants to sound like he's desperate, well except for a few, like buttchin'.
He may.
Or he can just say anything really.
Look, the Buccs won last year with 7 FAs as starters, the most important one being Brady.
The Chiefs won the previous year with a whopping 14 FAs.
Jack Burton
Veteran
For a team to compete yearly for a SB, you need a franchise QB. So, I’m not sure he’s really saying anything there. These media idiots just love to imply total BS from a nothing quote cause they want attention. Twitter has really ruined the media.
More of a canned, non answer, answer right there.
More of a canned, non answer, answer right there.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Texans have a history of severely screwing up their "Franchise QB" selections. Time to build a "Franchise Team" and add a competent veteran QB or be in a position to add that future QB1 with the team in place.
I'm for totally rebuilding so there will be no mistrust or angst. Anybody not on board I would trade (Tunsil) or cut and start over. I think there's already to much angst/ distrust for the players in this team to ever win a championship.
Problem is the McNairs would have to put money aside and fully commit to this and I can't ever see this happening.
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Jack Burton
Veteran
Easier said than done. And veteran QBs aren’t necessarily going to win you anything. You will never win anything with a “franchise team”. Elite franchise QBs win SBs in this league. It’s a QB driven league. The NFL is now catered to the QB. Which is why Tom Brady has won almost twice as many SBs as the next QB. There was a time when no QB had ever gone to another team and won a SB there after winning it at his original team. Now QBs are doing it regularly. Peyton, Brady, Hell, Kurt Warner was an inch from doing it.
It’s all about the elite franchise QB and if you don’t have one, you don’t have a chance in hell.
If that elite QB is taking up to much of the cap you aren't winning one either.
Jack Burton
Veteran
So here’s your window! Let the rebuild start now.
Get #2 draft your franchise QB and hit the ground running.
Have a plan in place to have a SB in 4 years and going for back to back in his 5th year option.
BUF is doing it. KC did it. LAC are doing it.
Meanwhile teams like WASH or TENN have a really good team but it does not matter. No elite franchise QB. So they just are in a perpetual state of meh cause they can’t get a high pick to draft one and they can’t buy one.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Brady didn’t win that SB and neither did Manning. The Buccs and Broncs defenses won those games. Manning was actually one of the worst QBs in the league when he won in Denver. Brady was much better but the main help he gave was leadership and not turning the ball over 30 times.
Philly won with Foles who was hot yes but part of it was teams didn’t have the game plan for him because Wentz had been the QB. Before and since Foles has been an overpaid backup. Mahomes won it last year but an elite franchise QB couldn’t overcome the fact the rest of his team sucked, same reason we went 4-12 with our elite franchise QB playing his best year ever.
Wilson, Rodgers, Big Ben they won one, and in a Big Ben’s case two, but they have never been able to get their teams over the hump since. Fact is we don’t really know how much of a difference franchise QBs truly make because so much of the last 20 years have been dominated by Brady and the Pats. So maybe it’s more fair to say elite, franchise Tom Brady’s win super bowls.
It’s being made out to be a QB driven league because the media and marketing want it that way but this is still the ultimate professional team sport.
If they think one of the QB's in a particular draft isthe guy that can get them there then you trade away two 1sts and more to get your guy. Or you wait for the QB shuffle and hope you hit the jackpot. Either way is a gamble. But history says you cant win a SB with a QB eating up to much cap space.
Norg
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and on the 6th year trade away your SB winning QB and get a young rookie QB and start all over agian right LOL :P
Yr 6 or depending on how you structure his contract yr 7. But otherwise history says yes.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
That has more to do with teams holding on to their franchise QBs, and those who don’t, those QBs are usually in the twilight of their careers.
Peyton was barely serviceable in Denver. Fortunately he had a great team built around him. Tom Brady? Well he’s Tom Brady. Those are the only 2, so I wouldn’t say it was a regular occurrence. Only 2 others have even been to a SB with another team (Warner, and Craig Morton over 40 years ago).
Yes, it’s a QB driven league but you can win with a well built team and a game manager at QB. It’s just a lot harder to keep that team together for very long because everybody wants to get paid eventually. Easier to keep the QB long term.
Jack Burton
Veteran
Lol!!!!
Jack Burton
Veteran
Your excuses for QB’s winning SBs are laughable. the chances of winning a SB with a “game manager” are microscopic compared to just getting an Elite Franchise QB. The league is catered to their success.
It’s as if the fan base has been running this franchise. LoL.
It’s no wonder they’ve never won anything with “game managers”.
On the one hand, all they care about is money. They couldn't care less about winning games.
On the other hand, they make money regardless whether the team wins or loses.
So when you say they have to put money aside & fully commit... what kind of things are you saying they should/shouldn't do?
Trade Watson regardless of the affect on the bottom line?
Hire a coach that isn't going to win you any games based on his ability?
Ditch players for maximum cap hit regardless of their "brand"?
So WFT & the Titans need to bite the bullet & jump up in this draft to get their QB, or find a way to get Watson.
Did the Titans commit to Tannehill?
Jack Burton
Veteran
Yeah, like the idiots they are, TENN gave him 60 MIL!! LOL.
WASH has the guy that KC dumped for Mahomes after letting Cousins walk. LOL.
If there were just as few more Kase Keenums laying around....
These are things you need to do to begin a rebuild. Trade players to obtain maximum draft capital and clear as much cap space as possible the next 2 yrs, regardless of whether it costs you money at the gate. Also spend the $$$$ to get the best assistant coaches possible. (Something the McNair's have never done)
This is a risk but if done right the McNair's will come out the other side better for it. Right now the part of the rebuild is on hold until they figure out what they're going to do with DW4.
Yes they did,
I see Darnold in the same light as Tannehill. Good player on a terrible team, looking for a contender totake a chance on him. He's a gamble but a team like the Redskins could be championship contenders if they traded/hit on Darnold. The talent is there.
Jack Burton
Veteran
Why not Tua to WASH?
Cheaper.
I think Tua stays in Miami.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Wow your counter points were staggering in their sublime brilliance.
Ok then hot shot, how about we break it down a bit. Lets take all the SB winning QBs not named Tom Brady over the last 20 years and see how many were elite and how many good enough.
Trent Dilfer
Brad Johnson
Big Ben
Peyton Manning
Eli Manning
Big Ben (again)
Drew Brees
Aaron Rodgers
Eli Manning (again)
Joe Flaco
Russel Wilson
Peyton Manning (again)
Nick Foles
Patrick Mahomes
Those are the winning QBs so breaking it down you have 4.5 that could be considered elite (Big Ben, Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes and Peyton the first time), 4.5 that were good enough (Dilfer, Johnson, Flaco, Foles and Peyton the second time) and 2 that it depends on who you ask about how good were they really (Brees and Eli.)
Now lets look at QBs that got to the SB in the last 20 years.
Kerry Collins
Kurt Warner
Rich Gannon
Jake Delhomme
Donovan McNabb
Matt Hasselback
Rex Grossman
Colin Kaepernick
Cam Newton
Matt Ryan
Jared Goff
Jimmy G
Notice how most of those names were never heard from again after they got to the SB. So the conclusion we can draw is two things.
One: What ultimately makes an elite, franchise QB is actually winning the SB and if they don't do that then they fade into the background.
Two: Tom Brady is the GOAT and blows all others away so therefore you can't judge others by his standard and get an accurate assessment.
Jack Burton
Veteran
On simple fact you left out of your long winded diatribe, which tells me I’ve struck a nerve is the league has changed in 20 years.
Its catered to the QB now.
This isn’t the league of Brad Johnson’s and Trent Dilfers anymore.
Sure. A QB might get lucky like Foles. One. Time.
For over a decade it’s been nothing but “elite franchise QBs“ cause that’s what the league wants.
Brady
Mahomes
Brady
Foles
Brady
Manning
Brady
Wilson
Flacco
Eli
Roger
Brees
Like it or not, Eli is going into the HOF. He was “elite”. Eli was just highly criticized because of where he played and his last name draws contempt from fans. Flacco was borderline “elite” and played like it up to his last season in BALT.
You don’t think Brees is “Elite”!?!?
Again, LoL.
And your argument for QBs that are elite only adds to the support of putting getting an elite QB of paramount importance to an organization instead of hoping a Tannehill pans out.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Exactly how many potential "Franchise QB's" who became very-very good NFL QB's dragged a complete crap team to a Super Bowl much less a Super Bowl victory?
On the flip side, how many decent QB's that were not exactly "Franchise QB's" but played for a stellar team not only got to a Super Bowl but walked away with the Lombardi Trophy?
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
OK, no need to be a dick about it. Eli Manning won 2 SBs and he’s certainly not elite. So laughing right back at you. You can put a team together and have everything go right in a given season. Yes, better odds over a longer period of time if you have an elite QB, but then ask Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees about that.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Mutha-Ducker Jones!!!!!!! Hit the nail on the head. I posted a similar reply below. This is a statement I've made on this board more than 30 times.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
You haven't struck a nerve other than how annoying it is to deal with someone replying with "LOL" instead of actually having a discussion. Its like trying to discuss things with a teenager. I didn't "leave" anything out and the league isn't catered to the QB as much as the media and the marketing is because selling #99 or #4 jerseys is much easier than selling team items and interviewing a QB is easier than interviewing a team. We just saw what happens when a a QB no matter how good doesn't have a very good team around him. Almost any QB could have won that game when their defenses holds the other team to 3 field goals.
Maybe we first need to establish what makes a QB "elite". If its wins then Foles is more elite than Watson and if its stats who cares if those stats don't equal wins. Its teams with mindsets like yours how they fall into the QB trap, they think they have to sign a QB to a big money deal but once they do they can't spend much money on the rest of the team so they are stuck in limbo. Look it up its been very well documented and reported on.
The fact you think Flaco was elite or even close is a joke and thats coming from a Ravens fan. As far as Eli and Brees, Eli might go into the HoF but that doesn't make him "elite" and Brees was good, even very good but so was Andrew Luck, Phillip Rivers and a host of others. Does that make them "elite"?
Again why don't you tell me your standard on what makes a QB an elite, franchise QB.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Was Tom Brady projected to be the "Elite GOAT Franchise QB" when the Patriots drafted him in RD6? Of course not....he was a camp body.
Do you honestly think Tom Brady drags the Browns organization to the level NE reached and sustained had he gone there as a RD6 QB? Hail no!!! He'd probably be selling insurance and watching SB's on TV with the rest of us fans.
Tom Brady and NE needed each other and timing was everything to Tom Brady's future success.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
I read an article about when they drafted Brady. Belichick actually didn't even want him. There was one scout, forget the name, that through the whole draft kept pounding the table for this kid from Michigan who could barely keep his starter role there. Finally when 6th round rolled around they didn't have a sure fire pick so BB drafted him just to keep his scout happy.
Jack Burton
Veteran
So your implying that Tom Brady only won those SBs because of where he played and his draft status proves that and furthermore he never would have been successful elsewhere?
And that this template proves that teams should just look at mid to late round QBs as their way to success and winning SB’s in the league.
You must have been really pissed when HOU drafted Watson..
Jack Burton
Veteran
And this template is the key to success in the NFL and should be copied by other teams, correct?
LoL.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Wasn't a template I was having a discussion with @OptimisticTexan that really had nothing to do with you or any of your "points". Which by the way you still haven't told me by what standards you judge a QB as "elite".
You're still new around here so you wouldn't know and I'm sure you can't be bothered to look it up, it would take away from your "LOL" reply time, but pretty much over the last 2-3 years most on this board have been very happy with moving up to draft Watson. Most would still be happy if not for the crap he is doing now. And pretty much everyone said in that draft we needed to move up to grab one of the 3 except for those that the idea of trading picks away is heresy to them.
I'm starting to wonder if teams are seeing the diva aspect of Watson and wondering if this will be a recurring theme if/when they might do something that hurts his feelings.
Jets ownership, of all people, should thing twice about signing an expensive QB that will renege just four months after signing a mega-deal because he thinks he deserves to be in on ownership decisions.
Watson has shown his true colors. The Texans just need to find a colorblind team to fleece in the deal and move on (not that I have any confidence whatsoever in the Texans front office to actually capitalize on anything they get in return).
Lol!!!!
Thanks to the members that replied to this silliness for saving me the time to reply with anything beyond my amusement. No offense meant, but I can't take anyone seriously after they post such a thing.
Eli will get into the HoF on name alone. Jim Plunkett won two SBs and has never even sniffed a nomination. The Manning name is treated like NFL royalty, even though only one of them has truly earned it.
If that elite QB is not taking up too much of the cap space but your GM is overpaying or drafting mediocre players and your coaching staff is not developing players, you’re not winning one either.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Using draft picks to trade for DW4 would be hitting on your draft picks. Some will argue that would be best use of draft picks.
Jack Burton
Veteran
Whew! What a relief. “Most” are happy with Watson as a player...
The template for an ‘elite franchise QB“ really isn’t up to us. It’s up to the FO of every team.
But if you want my opinion on that look no further than the current HOU QB. He fits the template coming out of college. I do not think HOU should trade him. But, if NC is left with no other choice...
Since we’re all putting our 2 cents out on the table, let’s just make this more productive than talking history and let’s delve into this years QBs and assess who we think, if any, are worthy of “elite franchise QB“ status? OK?
And let’s leave off Lawrence since as of today, he’s a “unicorn” in terms of actually acquiring him.
Is there another “elite franchise QB“ and if so, why?
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
So Watson is the definition to you of an elite QB, ok fair enough. So if thats the case how do you consider Eli, Brees and Flaco to be elite? For the record I don't think they should trade him either for a variety of reasons but I'm not sure he has truly earned the elite status yet but whatever.
As far as the up coming draft class, I have no idea. I've said it multiple times through the years I don't like or watch college football which is why I don't talk about specific players but simply draft capital in general. A few I trust on here say Wilson is either the best QB in this draft or a very close second so I trust that until he is actually in the NFL and I can see for myself.
Jack Burton
Veteran
Admittedly, I’ve never really cared for Eli.I'm starting to wonder if teams are seeing the diva aspect of Watson and wondering if this will be a recurring theme if/when they might do something that hurts his feelings.
Jets ownership, of all people, should thing twice about signing an expensive QB that will renege just four months after signing a mega-deal because he thinks he deserves to be in on ownership decisions.
Watson has shown his true colors. The Texans just need to find a colorblind team to fleece in the deal and move on (not that I have any confidence whatsoever in the Texans front office to actually capitalize on anything they get in return).
Lol!!!!
Thanks to the members that replied to this silliness for saving me the time to reply with anything beyond my amusement. No offense meant, but I can't take anyone seriously after they post such a thing.
Eli will get into the HoF on name alone. Jim Plunkett won two SBs and has never even sniffed a nomination. The Manning name is treated like NFL royalty, even though only one of them has truly earned it.
Hes really an outlier in terms of judging QBs because of his unique situation and his NFL career which started with so much stupid drama and his brother and his daddy and how he’s special and didn’t receive that same scrutiny that so many others did. People hated Elway too.
Hated him. And Elway is light years above what Eli ever was as a QB.
Different era’s I guess.
The simple fact remains that Eli produced for a decade and then won vs the biggest nemesis in the history of sports. Twice.
It is what it is, man.
And yes, Plunkett was a good QB.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
What you have failed to realize.....is the importance of having a team ready to go when a QB arrives via the draft or free agency.
It seems you have a strong desire to buy your new appliance and have it delivered to your dirt lot.....then run around trying to slap high-fives with anyone that would acknowledge your accomplishment.
I didn't like the price RS paid to move up to get Watson b/c every analyst was under the impression Mahomes and Watson would still be on the board later in RD1. That was going to leave the Texans with their choice of the two. KC threw a wrench into that plan when they jumped to 10, which forced the McNair's to panic. RS had his orders.....do not lose Watson. Once Watson was with the team, I could easily see that he was going to be a special QB, provided RS/OB could successfully build a team around him.....they failed with flying colors. So strike two on the Texans ability to take advantage of their "Franchise QB".
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OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
The Jaguars job is keeping that Unicorn healthy and productive until his wings emerge...Jaguars could pull a Texans and watch their Unicorn gradually whither away and become a Glue Factory Horse that no one wants.
Andrew Luck was Unicorn who came into the NFL with his wings almost intact.....the Colts took too long in building the team around him and like a non-productive thoroughbred, he eventually retired himself to the Glue Factory.
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Fair enough. I appreciate the honest reply.
Guys like Eli, Flacco, Foles, etc. undermine the narrative that you must have an elite QB to win a championship. It's not an impossible task with an above-average QB, but obviously it takes a great team around him to make it happen.
Elite QBs certainly raise the odds in a team's favor simply by making the playoffs at a consistently higher rate (at least I would assume).
But, even the great QBs often lose to great defenses in the postseason (happens every season). We just saw the best young QB of his generation lose to a great defense in the SB.
And while I would never argue against having an elite QB on your team, there are no guarantees. Peyton Manning is arguable top 5 of all time, but his postseason record is barely above .500 (14-13), in spite of his dominance.
I think with Eli, his w/l record is partly indicative of his career. Literally .500 with a 116-116 record. He was never ever a top 5 QB in any given year, and he might not have even been in the top 10 at any time of his career. He was fortunate to be durable, to have a loyal ownership, and to have a great last name in football. And while he certainly had a couple of great playoff runs, he is mediocre outside of those two postseasons.
Obviously, JMO. But fun chat.
Peyton Manning didn't play anywhere near the elite level the year he won it with the Broncos. Just saying.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
What’s that old saying “Offense wins games and defense wins championships.”
Jack Burton
Veteran
No. What I’m saying is if you can get an “Elite franchise QB” you get him and you don’t pass on him to build a defense. You will regret it. You can build the defense with the rest of your picks you acquired in the Watson trade and future drafts and FA.
I have no problem with building a team and obviously teams are going to do it anyways, but I do not see any position more important than QB.
I am of the opinion that if they trade Watson it should only be done so that HOU can pivot to an elite, franchise QB of Watsons level in return. If that is through a current NFL QB in a trade or though projection in the draft, so be it. It’s really there only 2 options.
That’s why I believe it’s imperative for HOU to get the #2
pick.
I’m not adverse to building other parts of the team if the FO doesn’t believe that there’s an elite, franchise QB there for them. But like many here, I do. Just my 2 cents.
Also, Mahomes was missing both his OTs in the SB.
I can’t fault the guy for losing and he will be back and he’s already accomplished more in his short career than this franchises entire history. LOL. Yeah, that’s pathetic.
And yes, KC did it reverse and kinda built a team with Smith. However, it wasn’t intentional. Reid believed Smith was the guy. It’s why he went out and got him. A lot of folks forget that.
But like Shanahan with Plummer, Reid realized he was never going to get to, let alone win a SB, no matter how close he got with Smith. So like Shanahan with Cutler, Reid did what he needed to do to get his guy. Both had varying degrees of success but the premise is the same.
No matter how good the teams defense was, they couldn’t get to the SB with the QB they had.
Remember, Plummer was 40-17 with DEN. He won 72% of his games. But he wasn’t elite when it counted. Same with Smith. Game managers. Trailers.
Shanahan and Plummer beat Brady in the playoffs, but they couldn’t get past the AFCCG. There was always another elite QB in Ben or Manning. And KC and Smith had the same struggles with the same elite QBs. Smith could never get it done.
All im saying is that the focus of any trade should be on aquiring another Elite, franchise QB, IF POSSIBLE, with our current franchise QB.
If it’s not possible, fine. Build the team. And set up next years draft to get a really high pick and repeat the above.