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Watson’s a top 5 qb. Do you agree?
- Thread starter DanielTx
- Start date
Garbage time.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Do you mean the safety? I thought that was a good play design and call for the situation. Akins had room to pick up the 1st and then some. It's funny how .20 seconds of O-Line protection can be the difference between "Great play call!" and "You idiot!"
He had the short guy and even if he didn't you've got to throw that ball away and live to play another down.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
This isn't even dispositive because you can see that he hasn't even taken his last gather step yet. You just don't throw the ball out on the 4th step of a 5 step drop. There's a timing and rhythm to all these plays and there's an expectation that you have so much time to get the ball out depending on the play.
Watch the video. After he takes his 5th step he can nutt up, stand tall & deliver the ball. Or he can go fetal & look for a way out. He chose the latter.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Yeah, okay. This is literally the definition of Monday morning quarterbacking.
If you want to be fair, then you should freeze frame his last gather step. Because in the screen shot above, his right foot is clearly not on the ground.
This is all moot anyway since his protection didn't hold up. If Fulton does his job, we're not having this conversation.
I want to lay more blame on Nick Martin. Still. Watch the video. He clearly sees the rusher & his "fight or flight" instinct says flight. He shouldn't even be looking at the rusher. He should deliver that ball & take the hit. If he's looking at any receiver other than the TE, that's another problem.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
Deliver the ball where? He was still in the pocket. Intentional grounding also leads to a safety.
FuzzyLogic
Mathematically Possible
There is a TE right in front, even if the TE isn't looking you can throw it at his foot and it isn't intentional grounding - a lot goes wrong on the play to look at Watson and go 'well here's your problem' but Watson has the ball so he has to make the decision that his blocking fell a part the play is dead - your in the end zone, not the time to put the cape on.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
You would have to be in the film room with Akins, Watson and Kelly to really know what happened. I don't think you can look at a freeze frame and say "There! He's open! Ball needs to come out NOW!!!" without even understanding that he hasn't even completed the last of his two gather steps.
I've never played at the collegiate level, but I was a backup QB in HS before switching positions. A 5-step drop can really be more like 5.5 steps since there's often a hitch step after your last gather step. It's not a video game where you hit the "X" button and the ball comes out with perfect accuracy as soon as you hit the bottom of your drop. That's a great way to sail the ball over someone's head with all of your momentum on your back foot. If he throws that ball, maybe he gets crushed while his feet aren't set and the ball sails over Akins and gets picked off. So maybe he decided it was better to avert total disaster and eat the sack. Who knows?
What we do know is that Fulton completely whiffed. So again, I'm not sure what we're criticizing here. If the protection held up for literally two-tenths of a second more, you would have been singing Kelly's praises. This also goes for any other play that could have been a total disaster without adequate protection.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
Did he have a passing lane with the DT in front of his face?
amazing80
Hall of Fame
So we're gonna lament Watson for one play when his OL failed, but ignore the rest of the game where he carried the team? Yeah, no QB is perfect for an entire game. He had a few plays where he could do better, but that is every QB in every game, throughout NFL history. That's why no QB has ever played a perfect game. Watson is literally the least of our worries, but he is the most scrutinized player on this forum. If you expect Watson to be perfect every game and every play, you should just stop watching football.
amazing80
Hall of Fame
Not to mention we have no idea what his read progression was or where he was at during this freezed frame.
austins23
Hall of Fame
Yes he did. I'm trying to figure out why Martin went to the left after the snap. One rusher on that side and Scharping and Tunsil have him. Two rushers on the right with a DB lurking. Howard and Fulton whiff the stunt, but shouldn't Martin's job be to help to the right since no one is covering him? Seems like Oline play 101 to me.
We see this all the time. QBs taking hits when throwing the ball. It's part of the game.
I agree, this game alone, Watson made some incredible plays avoiding the rush & making lemonade out of piss.
I agree, Fulton shat the bed. I'll add Nick Martin was a no show.
Still, Watson's feet are in the end zone & he has to handle this situation better.
Why is it if we criticize him here & on the low snap fumble that we can't appreciate his greatness the rest of the game? I think he played a heck of a game. I think Coutee played a heck of a game. But I could find fault with him on several plays as well.
& it's not that I'm looking to nitpick Watson's game. But these are the plays we're talking about.
It's a crying shame that we have 6 guys blocking 4 & our QB gets sacked as soon as he finishes his drop.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
And Watson takes hits while throwing the ball all of the time. But here, you're saying the ball should be coming out when his right foot hasn't even been planted into the ground yet. A 5-step drop is three large steps, two smaller gather steps, a "hitch" step, and then ball out. It's not 4-5 steps and then ball out. That's usually something that's done on a 3-step drop because it's a usually a much shorter pass. This was obviously intended to be a longer passing play and the offensive line has to provide time for him to at least finish his gather steps.
The freeze frame is from a twitter video posted in one of the threads. Watch the video.
Decim8
Veteran
its sad, true but funny at the same time
amazing80
Hall of Fame
Why is it that every thread is about Watson and his negative plays, but nothing else? We shouldn't be focused on one or two QUESTIONABLE plays, not even bad. The loser mentality runs deep around these parts
Really depends on how the QB called the protection. Who he identified as the rushing LB (MIKE) & how the defense play after the snap. The guy called as the MIKE is probably the guy on the left who backs into coverage. The MIKE was actually the DB that rushed from the far right. Duke picks him up.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
DELETE. I was wrong, must have been thinking of another play.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
But you are nitpicking. You literally posted a freeze frame showing Akins open when Watson was on the 4th step of a 5 step drop. If you're going to make the argument that he's getting the ball out late, then you need to show a freeze frame on his hitch step.
I'm not saying that. I'm not conceding that point to you. I'm pretty much ignoring it because I think you're flat out wrong. Watch the video.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Then why don't you post the freeze frame where his back foot was on the ground.
austins23
Hall of Fame
If that's what you want to call it, "Blocking"
amazing80
Hall of Fame
This is the moment he takes his last step. He appears to be looking to his right , not at the crossing TE, and the middle of the line has collapsed and provides no throwing window. In the blink of an eye, he is hit.
I disagree.
These negative plays impacted the game. Why is it ok to criticize Martin & Fulton on this play. Heck, even Kelly & Bill O'Brien (& he's not here any more). But we can't criticize the guy with the ball in his hands?
The loser mentality, imo, is skirting around the truth.
Now, I'm not saying the guy who says Watson will never be a great QB in this league is right because Watson screwed up here. I'm saying Russel Wilson & Aaron Rodgers screw up too.
amazing80
Hall of Fame
You picked two plays to blame Watson for losing, but ignore the fact Martin was a bigger issue on BOTH plays.
If we weren't talking about this play, I wouldn't be talking about this play. But since we are talking about this play, I'm calling everyone out. Martin, Fulton, Kelly... & DeShaun.
I posted a freeze frame from a video. The video that I think is posted in this thread. Don't focus on the freeze frame. Watch the video (which I've said several times).
Nope, I didn't ignore it. I mentioned it. No one wants to argue the point. This is the point they want to argue.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
At the end of the day, you can't even be too mad about the safety. Maybe he gets pounded during his throwing motion with a resulting interception. Or the ball gets batted up in the air. The cost of the safety was 2 points and possession in a 4 point game with 6:07 on the clock. It's not the worse thing that could have happened, which is obviously true since the Texans were in position to win the game at the very end.
Watch the video.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Why do you keep saying this when we all have access to the video? We just don't agree with you.
Because these are the weaknesses that he really needs to improve upon. It hasn't happened in 4 years and counting.
How many times have you screamed at your TV and said get rid of the ball. Particularly in the end zone, he has to get rid of the ball and have better situational awareness. I don't care what step in your drop your on if you're in the EZ and you see the rush coming that's not the time to play hero ball.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
How was he playing hero ball?
Texansballer74
The Marine
If we actually had a legitimate running game, we wouldn’t be trying to throw three straight pass anyways. If we had a top 10 offensive line in both pass pro and run pro. We would’ve ran at least twice on that particular series.
And I didn’t like the play calling on that series either.
And I didn’t like the play calling on that series either.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Except this isn't true at all. I posted a video of Sam Gold discussing this exact topic. I've even bookmarked it for you.
And in case you don't have time to watch it, here is what he says:
He's really gotten more consistent at shifting the pocket with precise footwork on his throws. This has led to greater velocity. It has also led to greater accuracy as well. With a solid base on his throws, he has improved on consistently hitting all three levels of the field. Now sometimes he'll throw behind a receiver, but generally speaking, he's still pretty accurate.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
I wonder if any analysts are saying that Watson needed to get rid of the ball sooner. This is the commentary from the game.
Before Fulton and Howard can make that change, you see the angle that Justin Houston has...and that...that caught Deshaun Watson by surprise. He got home quickly.
This screenshot pretty much sums up the philosophical problem.
That crosser is open - the defender above is dropping back and that crosser is a completion even if it doesn't generate a first down it buys you 5 more yards from the back of the endzone and maybe he makes a play and gets that first ...
Rather , Watson wants it all and is willing to assume great risk to get it.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
It's a 4 man pass rush w/ 6 blockers. Why should DW look to get rid of the ball asap, even if it means short of the 1st? Are you suggesting DW shouldn't be trusting his protection?
Look at his right leg in the screenshot. Is he in position to throw that ball?
Exactly. I could see if the play call was a three step drop. But it wasn't.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Notice how much the situation has deteriorated in less than a second. The first screen shot is the last step of a 5-step drop with his weight still moving backwards. In the second screenshot, he's beginning his hitch step and notices Houston making a bee line in his direction. In the third screen shot, he realizes all hope is lost on the play and eats the sack.
I guess the question is whether he had time to complete a full throwing motion between the second and third screenshots. I think it's hard to say that he did considering these are 3 very different screenshots all taken within the same second.
I guess the question is whether he had time to complete a full throwing motion between the second and third screenshots. I think it's hard to say that he did considering these are 3 very different screenshots all taken within the same second.
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Lol