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State of the O-line

You're stuck on Davenport. I'm not.

What we've been seeing goes beyond Davenport. The interior line is really bad & hurting our run game as much if not more than Davenport's slow feet.

We've seen Mancz play well at center & guard. Martin is a 2nd round pick. That's two out of three interior positions. We should be able to run better than we have since the Colts game.

& it doesn't really matter how slow Davenport's feet are, if Rankin's natural position is guard, we should have a better back up plan on game day than the Cupid Shuffle if something happens to our starting tackles.
It all goes back to the Osweiler debacle though, they gave up the top of the draft to dispense with Osweilers cap hit when if you look at it, they could have just eaten it, they weren't able to use that space they saved for whatever reason, and now they are left with huge holes at OL and CB which they weren't able to fill last off season.

I was somewhat surprised at how bad our draft history has been since BOB arrived. Kevin Johnson (bust) has been the only CB taken anywhere in the draft in that timeframe.

Martin And XSF are the only high picks taken on the line until the last couple of years. They helped push Brooks and Jones out the door, both playing at a decent level elsewhere.

The thing that gives me hope is that Gaine didn't have the draft picks to truly sort things in his first off season. I could see the idea behind churning the roster at OL if we weren't going to be able to get marquee figures. Shame Henderson didn't get the opportunity.
 
It all goes back to the Osweiler debacle though, they gave up the top of the draft to dispense with Osweilers cap hit when if you look at it, they could have just eaten it, they weren't able to use that space they saved for whatever reason, and now they are left with huge holes at OL and CB which they weren't able to fill last off season.

Yes, thank you Rickey/McNairs/OB...

However, I'm convinced that trade laid the groundwork for us to move up & select Watson, so all good with me... though I was really hoping Mahomes would be there, DW4 was my second choice
 
It all goes back to the Osweiler debacle though, they gave up the top of the draft to dispense with Osweilers cap hit when if you look at it, they could have just eaten it, they weren't able to use that space they saved for whatever reason, and now they are left with huge holes at OL and CB which they weren't able to fill last off season.

I was somewhat surprised at how bad our draft history has been since BOB arrived. Kevin Johnson (bust) has been the only CB taken anywhere in the draft in that timeframe.

Martin And XSF are the only high picks taken on the line until the last couple of years. They helped push Brooks and Jones out the door, both playing at a decent level elsewhere.

The thing that gives me hope is that Gaine didn't have the draft picks to truly sort things in his first off season. I could see the idea behind churning the roster at OL if we weren't going to be able to get marquee figures. Shame Henderson didn't get the opportunity.

You just described a dysfunctional front office.

Luckily that's in the past.

Good times are ahead.
 
Can it be carried over for the next decade?

The point is if they had held on to Os they still would've had the cap space as of today and had a 2nd rd pick to try to fill holes. Decisions like this are what cost Ricky his job.

They wouldn't have had the cap space.

It's one pick. You're constantly wanting to trade them away. Do try to be a bit consistent.
 
They wouldn't have had the cap space.

It's one pick. You're constantly wanting to trade them away. Do try to be a bit consistent.

It's a very valuable pick, not some 6th/7th rd pick. The 36th pick in the draft. The type pick that you could package with a 3rd/4th rd pick to move into the and get your LT of the future. They did have three 3rds so this definitely could've happened.

And what good use has the extra cap space been. I'm spelling something out that you already know or should know, I just think you're being argumentative or not thinking this thru. It could be that you're an apologist, or hate everything about BOB, but somethings not right with your train of thought.
 
They still have the friggin cap space and can use it.

So now you can get a LT of the future in the late 1st. Funny after so many posts that they'll have to trade up from the late 1st to get one.
 
It's a very valuable pick, not some 6th/7th rd pick. The 36th pick in the draft. The type pick that you could package with a 3rd/4th rd pick to move into the and get your LT of the future. They did have three 3rds so this definitely could've happened.

And what good use has the extra cap space been. I'm spelling something out that you already know or should know, I just think you're being argumentative or not thinking this thru. It could be that you're an apologist, or hate everything about BOB, but somethings not right with your train of thought.

And you know what acquiring that cap space was all about... Romo and then he gave RS the finger and became a talking head
 
And you know what acquiring that cap space was all about... Romo and then he gave RS the finger and became a talking head

It still hasn't been used. If I was like Cak I could say we dont know this to be a fact and provide a link. I'm not saying this.

With regards to Romo, sometimes when you gamble you lose. Which is why I dont gamble and if I do I only play roulete and bet on black/red equally. I can play for hours on 50 bucks and get free drinks.
 
They still have the friggin cap space and can use it.

So now you can get a LT of the future in the late 1st. Funny after so many posts that they'll have to trade up from the late 1st to get one.

What does this have to do with anything?
 
Did everybody forget how much Osweiler and OBrien began to despise one another? That situation was not going to work itself out, so NO you couldnt just 'eat' the contract .. Osweiler had to go, and quite honestly is was a miracle that Rick Smith found someone to take that bloated contract. 2 times Rick Smith was able to unload what could have been the worst QB in football and brought back some ROI on the players. If OBrien doesnt hitch his wagon to Os and press the team to acquire him then all this is moot, and we are still currently without a franchise QB and Bill OBrien is probably coaching the Jets or some other cellar dwellar.

Thanks Brock Osweiler you really did save this franchise! LOL
 
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Did everybody forget how much Osweiler and OBrien began to despise one another? That situation was not going to work itself out, so NO you couldnt just 'eat' the contract .. Osweiler had to go, and quite honestly is was a miracle that Rick Smith found someone to take that bloated contract. 2 times Rick Smith was able to unload what could have been the worst QB in football and brought back some ROI on the players. If OBrien doesnt hitch his wagon to Os and press the team to acquire him then all this is moot, and we are still currently without a franchise QB and Bill OBrien is probably coaching the Jets or some other cellar dwellar.

Thanks Brock Osweiler you really did save this franchise! LOL

We differ only in who forced the issue
 
Absolutely. Even throwing it away is a good play sometimes. I'm hoping he will learn that sooner rather than later. Kids got a little too much Favre in him for my taste.


Really I cant knock him too much here , it is what makes him a special player. You want him to realize when its futile to try and make something out of nothing … but hell , like that one play on the final offensive drive against the Igles where he broke 3 tackles that all looked like sure sacks then made a big completion … You cant tell him to give up on a play when he has that ability.

You can ask the OL to be better ….

Give me guys with Favre type ability all day long , I'll gamble with their ability over the Schaub types all day long.
 
Really I cant knock him too much here , it is what makes him a special player. You want him to realize when its futile to try and make something out of nothing … but hell , like that one play on the final offensive drive against the Igles where he broke 3 tackles that all looked like sure sacks then made a big completion … You cant tell him to give up on a play when he has that ability.

You can ask the OL to be better ….

Give me guys with Favre type ability all day long , I'll gamble with their ability over the Schaub types all day long.

I thought he did a pretty decent job throwing the ball away when he had to against the Eagles, better than he has been most of the season.
 
Yes, thank you Rickey/McNairs/OB...

However, I'm convinced that trade laid the groundwork for us to move up & select Watson, so all good with me... though I was really hoping Mahomes would be there, DW4 was my second choice


Mahomes was my #1 too …. Watson was my "last resort" , I really didn't like him at all. I might have actually passed on him …. so many warts coming out but the guy just finds a way to win.
 
Can it be carried over for the next decade?

The point is if they had held on to Os they still would've had the cap space as of today and had a 2nd rd pick to try to fill holes. Decisions like this are what cost Ricky his job.


No , they wouldn't have that cap space today. They would have the empty space his expiring contract produced below the cap , not the excess created by getting under the cap and carrying over.

Open cap space is carried over year to year , accumulative. One of the oddities of the NFL CBA ….

I liked the trade at the moment of conception , hated it when they didn't use the space to make the team better that year. But really without a QB it was pointless. Better saved to use in the future than then ….
 
Did everybody forget how much Osweiler and OBrien began to despise one another? That situation was not going to work itself out, so NO you couldnt just 'eat' the contract .. Osweiler had to go, and quite honestly is was a miracle that Rick Smith found someone to take that bloated contract. 2 times Rick Smith was able to unload what could have been the worst QB in football and brought back some ROI on the players. If OBrien doesnt hitch his wagon to Os and press the team to acquire him then all this is moot, and we are still currently without a franchise QB and Bill OBrien is probably coaching the Jets or some other cellar dwellar.

Thanks Brock Osweiler you really did save this franchise! LOL


They could have eaten the contract …. and told the Blundering Wizard of Oz to go play golf instead of showing up for team activities.
 
Mahomes was my #1 too …. Watson was my "last resort" , I really didn't like him at all. I might have actually passed on him …. so many warts coming out but the guy just finds a way to win.

Don't know about last resort... I know I didn't want Trubisky, Watson I didn't consider that much... thought he'd be the first qb taken
 
No , they wouldn't have that cap space today. They would have the empty space his expiring contract produced below the cap , not the excess created by getting under the cap and carrying over.

Open cap space is carried over year to year , accumulative. One of the oddities of the NFL CBA ….

I liked the trade at the moment of conception , hated it when they didn't use the space to make the team better that year. But really without a QB it was pointless. Better saved to use in the future than then ….

So, if they didn't use the pace two years ago, and didn't use it last year, it's gone?
 
Don't know about last resort... I know I didn't want Trubisky, Watson I didn't consider that much... thought he'd be the first qb taken

I had them going in the order they went but thought the rest of the league was crazy having Trubisky over Mahomes …. I just didn't like Watson , particularly on the issues of accuracy and actually reading defenses - he never really had to read both sides of the field and more often than not it was one read slant / checkdown in that offense.

Looking back , that's on Dabo's offense ….

So, if they didn't use the pace two years ago, and didn't use it last year, it's gone?

No , it accumulates year over year.

As for the Texans , their best window of opportunity is 2019 & 2020 while Watson is still on his rookie deal , after that he's gonna get a huge payday and eat up a large chunk of cap space , less to spend elsewhere. Consider Aaron Rogers contract averaging $33.5m but his total salary and bonuses for the year are $66.9m. With cap hits of $20.9m this season escalating to $33.5m in 2021(17.72% of the total cap).
The next two years are the window …. after that its gonna be harder to put pieces around him.


According to Spotrac they'll have $68,516,213 in cap space in the offseason - with that they have quite a few free agents of merit - Clowney , Mathieu , KJax , Covington , Lamm , Scarlett , Fairbairn , Weeden , Henderson and a few low cost guys.

Clowney probably gets franchised if they cant come to an agreement. That's between $12 and $17m depending upon what position they designate him as and which tag they use.
Projected Franchise & Transition tag values for 2019
DE $17,144,000 $13,870,000
LB $14,953,000 $12,444,000



I don't know what the hell they do with KJax , someone might back up the Brinks truck at his door …. Mathieu I want to see stay but don't know what it takes , he gambled on himself with that one year deal and probably earned a heflty long term deal , Fairbairn should get a nice raise …

Henderson … that injury derailed him , don't know what happens there , the team likely moves on.

Lamm ? One game I think he's put it together , the next he's rotten , don't know what's on the FA market and its early for the draft.
 
I had them going in the order they went but thought the rest of the league was crazy having Trubisky over Mahomes …. I just didn't like Watson , particularly on the issues of accuracy and actually reading defenses - he never really had to read both sides of the field and more often than not it was one read slant / checkdown in that offense.

Looking back , that's on Dabo's offense ….



No , it accumulates year over year.

As for the Texans , their best window of opportunity is 2019 & 2020 while Watson is still on his rookie deal , after that he's gonna get a huge payday and eat up a large chunk of cap space , less to spend elsewhere. Consider Aaron Rogers contract averaging $33.5m but his total salary and bonuses for the year are $66.9m. With cap hits of $20.9m this season escalating to $33.5m in 2021(17.72% of the total cap).
The next two years are the window …. after that its gonna be harder to put pieces around him.


According to Spotrac they'll have $68,516,213 in cap space in the offseason - with that they have quite a few free agents of merit - Clowney , Mathieu , KJax , Covington , Lamm , Scarlett , Fairbairn , Weeden , Henderson and a few low cost guys.

Clowney probably gets franchised if they cant come to an agreement. That's between $12 and $17m depending upon what position they designate him as and which tag they use.
Projected Franchise & Transition tag values for 2019
DE $17,144,000 $13,870,000
LB $14,953,000 $12,444,000



I don't know what the hell they do with KJax , someone might back up the Brinks truck at his door …. Mathieu I want to see stay but don't know what it takes , he gambled on himself with that one year deal and probably earned a heflty long term deal , Fairbairn should get a nice raise …

Henderson … that injury derailed him , don't know what happens there , the team likely moves on.

Lamm ? One game I think he's put it together , the next he's rotten , don't know what's on the FA market and its early for the draft.

One thing I hope Gaine doesn't do.....bog down his cap space.

Tag and trade Clowney. Reminds me of the Cushing debacle. I'd be fine with a couple of draft picks while another team rolls the financial dice.

I'd put competitive offers on the table for both Badger and KJax.....but I wouldn't hamstring the cap trying to get them both under contract.

Covington, Lamm, Scarlett, Fairbairn and Henderson would be easy signings without too much impact on the cap.

I would make an effort to sign one of the 2 better FA LT's available. A veteran CB would be on the list as well.

I see this as being a good draft and would use it to launch the future by obtaining a few more picks if possible.
 
One thing I hope Gaine doesn't do.....bog down his cap space.

Tag and trade Clowney. Reminds me of the Cushing debacle. I'd be fine with a couple of draft picks while another team rolls the financial dice.

The memories on Cushing seem muddled around here. Clowney is in a much more tenuous situation. Cushing had suffered a single ACL injury & recovered when his new deal was signed. ACLs are a dime a dozen in the NFL. Clowney has had a string of surgeries including the rarely long term successful microfracture surgery and still has untreated bone spurs.

Cushing's performance was impaired when his fibula was broken and a rarely injured ligament was torn in an illegal hit after his new contract was signed. Could have happened to anyone and was ACL unrelated.

Clowney under the 120% rule would take $14.76 to franchise which is already between the LB & DE numbers so shouldn't get much argument (teams & players have been splitting the difference for players like Clowney who mix roles).

I'd put competitive offers on the table for both Badger and KJax.....but I wouldn't hamstring the cap trying to get them both under contract.

Badger is probably going to require $10-12 mil to sign (franchise is $11.2 mil). This is his career big contract opportunity at 26. Kareem will be 31 before next season and has been "moved to safety" so I think he can be started on JJo type 2 year deals, maybe 3 on the 1st. Wouldn't expect a raise from his currect average of $8.5 mil.
 
20 mil spent on the S position is alot of $$$$.

If it came down to KJax/Mathieu who do you keep?
 
The memories on Cushing seem muddled around here. Clowney is in a much more tenuous situation. Cushing had suffered a single ACL injury & recovered when his new deal was signed. ACLs are a dime a dozen in the NFL. Clowney has had a string of surgeries including the rarely long term successful microfracture surgery and still has untreated bone spurs.

Cushing's performance was impaired when his fibula was broken and a rarely injured ligament was torn in an illegal hit after his new contract was signed. Could have happened to anyone and was ACL unrelated.

Clowney under the 120% rule would take $14.76 to franchise which is already between the LB & DE numbers so shouldn't get much argument (teams & players have been splitting the difference for players like Clowney who mix roles).



Badger is probably going to require $10-12 mil to sign (franchise is $11.2 mil). This is his career big contract opportunity at 26. Kareem will be 31 before next season and has been "moved to safety" so I think he can be started on JJo type 2 year deals, maybe 3 on the 1st. Wouldn't expect a raise from his currect average of $8.5 mil.

Cushing should have been traded after the 2015 season... Clowney should be tagged and traded if you can find a partner. Resign HB, Kjax, Covington & players you don't upgrade in the draft & FA
 
20 mil spent on the S position is alot of $$$$.

If it came down to KJax/Mathieu who do you keep?

Mathieu but I think looking just at safety is myopic. Look at the secondary as a whole. JJo is cheap at $4.5. Colvin is middling at $8.5 (and he'd cost cap to cut). A rookie, even a 1st rounder, would be really cheap. I suspect they swing at another $8-10 FA CB or settle for someone even less expensive. So overall I don't think the secondary is too expensive.

Not every or even many safeties can slide over to CB if needed like KJax can.

Here are the FA CBs. Who you targeting?

Edit: saw your answer over there - Claiborne/Melvin.

Claiborne just played 1 year for $7 mil. Fits right in with the above. Melvin just played 1 year for $5.5 mil (and is 29) so again fits. Neither are top dollar CBs.
 
20 mil spent on the S position is alot of $$$$.

If it came down to KJax/Mathieu who do you keep?

I think the cap # can be quite a bit lower next couple of years... $190,000,000 is a LOT of money. KJax won't bring near a cap figure of $8.5 mil and I doubt if HB is much over $10M . Keep both if you can, they have different strengths and work well together
 
One thing I hope Gaine doesn't do.....bog down his cap space.

I would make an effort to sign one of the 2 better FA LT's available. A veteran CB would be on the list as well.

I see this as being a good draft and would use it to launch the future by obtaining a few more picks if possible.

The so called experts are saying this draft will be good for defense, especially D-linemen. They also say it will be a weak class in O-linemen and QB's.

If this holds true, and if Gaine is a BPA type of GM, then I expect them to get a CB or DE/DT with the 1st pick depending on who's on the board. We'll see come draft time!
 
The so called experts are saying this draft will be good for defense, especially D-linemen. They also say it will be a weak class in O-linemen and QB's.

If this holds true, and if Gaine is a BPA type of GM, then I expect them to get a CB or DE/DT with the 1st pick depending on who's on the board. We'll see come draft time!

I wouldn't have a problem with a top 5 at any of these positions if no top 5 OT was available, but I think there will be
 
Don't know about last resort... I know I didn't want Trubisky, Watson I didn't consider that much... thought he'd be the first qb taken
I didn't want Watson or any of the other 1st round QBs. I thought we should have used that draft to build the Oline, and maybe take a flyer on a QB in the 4th or later. I was all set to go with what we had at QB that year, and draft a QB last year. I thought if we solidified the Oline, an average QB could pull us through for a year or two, while we lean on the run game. Now we have Watson, but still have a poor Oline. I'm still not sold.
 
I wouldn't have a problem with a top 5 at any of these positions if no top 5 OT was available, but I think there will be


Then I guess the question becomes is the the top 1 or 2 OT as good as, or better than, the 3rd, 4th, or 5th rated CB or DE in the draft and, is there a big drop off in talent in any of those position groups? If the answer is yes for the OT group then go with the OT in the 1st. I'm just not sure the talent level is there with the OT's coming out. But, it's a long way off until April and there is still a lot of evaluating to do between now and then!
 
I didn't want Watson or any of the other 1st round QBs. I thought we should have used that draft to build the Oline, and maybe take a flyer on a QB in the 4th or later. I was all set to go with what we had at QB that year, and draft a QB last year. I thought if we solidified the Oline, an average QB could pull us through for a year or two, while we lean on the run game. Now we have Watson, but still have a poor Oline. I'm still not sold.

Except we didn't have an average QB...we had Savage
 
Then I guess the question becomes is the the top 1 or 2 OT as good as, or better than, the 3rd, 4th, or 5th rated CB or DE in the draft and, is there a big drop off in talent in any of those position groups? If the answer is yes for the OT group then go with the OT in the 1st. I'm just not sure the talent level is there with the OT's coming out. But, it's a long way off until April and there is still a lot of evaluating to do between now and then!

Mainly this imo.... it's all about value.
 
Then I guess the question becomes is the the top 1 or 2 OT as good as, or better than, the 3rd, 4th, or 5th rated CB or DE in the draft and, is there a big drop off in talent in any of those position groups? If the answer is yes for the OT group then go with the OT in the 1st. I'm just not sure the talent level is there with the OT's coming out. But, it's a long way off until April and there is still a lot of evaluating to do between now and then!

The top 5 OT's will be starters at some point early in their careers.

From what I've seen so far

Murphy/Williams/Baker/Adderly (Who can play CB/S) are 1st rd talents.

The Sr. Bowl/Combine will tell more.
 
The memories on Cushing seem muddled around here. Clowney is in a much more tenuous situation. Cushing had suffered a single ACL injury & recovered when his new deal was signed. ACLs are a dime a dozen in the NFL. Clowney has had a string of surgeries including the rarely long term successful microfracture surgery and still has untreated bone spurs.

Cushing's performance was impaired when his fibula was broken and a rarely injured ligament was torn in an illegal hit after his new contract was signed. Could have happened to anyone and was ACL unrelated.

Clowney under the 120% rule would take $14.76 to franchise which is already between the LB & DE numbers so shouldn't get much argument (teams & players have been splitting the difference for players like Clowney who mix roles)



Badger is probably going to require $10-12 mil to sign (franchise is $11.2 mil). This is his career big contract opportunity at 26. Kareem will be 31 before next season and has been "moved to safety" so I think he can be started on JJo type 2 year deals, maybe 3 on the 1st. Wouldn't expect a raise from his currect average of $8.5 mil.
Very good numbers and realistic. Hard to not sign Badger and KJack and keep fluidity of 'regulars', replacements would be expensive also.
 
Mainly this imo.... it's all about value.

There's value and there's perceived value.


A guy you need is gonna have more value to you than a guy you don't …. another team may value them differently.


Sure , superstars …. but often you don't know that till after the fact. They may not develop into that on a different roster / staff. Look at JJ or Tom Terrific …. no one saw that coming. Very few are transcendent stars coming out …. and many of those don't measure up to the hype - Reggie Bush and MW ? Good players but not what they were hyped to be.
 
How many top 5 position players will be available at 1.32?:trophy:


Potentially several …. how many positions in football ? 7 on offense give or take and 7 or 8 on defense depending upon how you list them.

QB , RB , WR , OT , OG , C & TE
DE , DT , OLB , ILB , CB , SS , FS & NT

That's 15 positions not including any special teams guys.

15x5 = 75 which leaves someone top 5 at their position undrafted at pick #75 assuming 5 players are taken at each spot by that time , otherwise a top 5 guy is available even further down the board and that's the case more often than not …. many drafts have a top 5 OG / C / NT / TE / S / ILB and even RB available in the top of the 3rd round …. Just not a premium on those positions like CB / Pass rushers / QB / OT & WR.
 
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