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State of the O-line

TheKDog said:
I agree with what you're saying. I'm not ready to give up on Davenport, he needs time. I just think OBrien believed he was ready when he wasn't. He consistently makes those kind of evaluation mistakes
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Again I'm not trying to defend O'Brien but what choice did he have? Set all off season aside for another discussion but who is on roster to play right tackle? Yes that's his responsibility to get players but most here are griping but not offering reasonable solutions to what we could have gotten. IMO we are in a "growing mode" at several spots including TE and we will see progress--hopefully without injuries. Doesn't seem to be much noise about how our mighty defense looked horrible. Per Draftwire Titans were down to third string OTs and we get one sack from Ejiofor? Where was Mercilus? Watt was average which is expected but he looked exhausted first quarter. Where was Crennel's great play calling? Where was McKinney? I'm just pointing out it's not all Davenport and if coaching improves so will team.
 
badboy said:
Again I'm not trying to defend O'Brien but what choice did he have? Set all off season aside for another discussion but who is on roster to play right tackle? Yes that's his responsibility to get players but most here are griping but not offering reasonable solutions to what we could have gotten. IMO we are in a "growing mode" at several spots including TE and we will see progress--hopefully without injuries. Doesn't seem to be much noise about how our mighty defense looked horrible. Per Draftwire Titans were down to third string OTs and we get one sack from Ejiofor? Where was Mercilus? Watt was average which is expected but he looked exhausted first quarter. Where was Crennel's great play calling? Where was McKinney? I'm just pointing out it's not all Davenport and if coaching improves so will team.
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My solution was to trade for Trent Brown. He is now starting at LT for the Patriots.

Belichick just traded a 3rd rounder for him, and the Texans had an extra 3rd rounder higher than the Pats.

Not sure who dropped the ball there. The 9ers must have called Gaine to try to get more for him knowing the Texans needed an LT, but I'm speculating OBrien thought Davenport was ready.

The defense has been solid, not great I think. They really only gave up 13 points to the Titans. But you're right the pass rush hasn't been great
 
leebigeztx said:
It's about player development.
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With the current talent on this OL it's about making chicken salad out of chicken bleep. You get what you pay for.

Dont you find it curious that a talented guy like Rankin seems to be developing but a guy like Davenport really hasn't developed more than what he was last yr? How could this be?
 
steelbtexan said:
With the current talent on this OL it's about making chicken salad out of chicken bleep. You get what you pay for.

Dont you find it curious that a talented guy like Rankin seems to be developing but a guy like Davenport really hasn't developed more than what he was last yr? How could this be?
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Rankin has the strength to be an OT. Davenport has demonstrated more the strength of a TE placed on the OL. Despite putting muscle on, his strength has remained lacking. In that department, I don't know that I can say that I see all that much difference between him and Lamm. Did I really say that?
 
leebigeztx said:
What about Martin and XSF? How about their development? Do you remember Myers and Brown yr 1 vs yr 3?
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Martin has been riddled with major injuries which have left him limited. XSF lacked drive and smarts. Meyers was not that strong, but made up for it with his smarts, not to mention that he definitely benefited by the system. Brown never had a problem with strength and could concentrate on developing his technique with experience.
 
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TheKDog said:
My solution was to trade for Trent Brown. He is now starting at LT for the Patriots.

Belichick just traded a 3rd rounder for him, and the Texans had an extra 3rd rounder higher than the Pats.

Not sure who dropped the ball there. The 9ers must have called Gaine to try to get more for him knowing the Texans needed an LT, but I'm speculating OBrien thought Davenport was ready.

The defense has been solid, not great I think. They really only gave up 13 points to the Titans. But you're right the pass rush hasn't been great
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it's been speculated that the trent brown trade was the return favor for Jimmy g.
 
TheKDog said:
My solution was to trade for Trent Brown. He is now starting at LT for the Patriots.

Belichick just traded a 3rd rounder for him, and the Texans had an extra 3rd rounder higher than the Pats.

Not sure who dropped the ball there. The 9ers must have called Gaine to try to get more for him knowing the Texans needed an LT, but I'm speculating OBrien thought Davenport was ready.

The defense has been solid, not great I think. They really only gave up 13 points to the Titans. But you're right the pass rush hasn't been great
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The BOGaine hasn't made any trades (unless I forgot a very minor one) and seemed to be more interested in establishing a philosophy than filling needs short term this year. Not that convinced that the Texans were in on Brown at all..even they should have been.
 
ArlingtonTexan said:
The BOGaine hasn't made any trades (unless I forgot a very minor one) and seemed to be more interested in establishing a philosophy than filling needs short term this year. Not that convinced that the Texans were in on Brown at all..even they should have been.
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Keeping Watson healthy should have been Job #1.

Brown could've helped with that.
 
TheKDog said:
I agree with what you're saying. I'm not ready to give up on Davenport, he needs time. I just think OBrien believed he was ready when he wasn't. He consistently makes those kind of evaluation mistakes
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Like I said this offseason, if this was the case they wouldn't have been chasing after Solder. For all of you lets see how the new OL looks before we start to judge guys, how long before we judge them?

Davenport is what he's always been and just like his cousin isn't likely to improve to starter level quality. IMHO

Meanwhile the Cleveland OL with rookie UDFA LT Harrison was solid against the Saints.
 
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I mentioned up stream that the Texans could consider this a good thing if they could identify 2-3 OL as starter or solid backup material going into 2019. This will inevitably payoff since it focuses that draft on which positions on the OL should be a priority while having the ability to use this years OL as a way have reasonable depth.

Damn we need a better OL Coach!!!

I'm still thinking the LT and RG should be the OL focus in the draft. I'm still wary of Martin at Center. If his play doesn't jump leap and bounds this season....he should be bumped to RG at some point and allow Mancz to start at Center. Last year and 2 games into this season....Martin still hasn't played the position better than Mancz did in 2016.

Did I mention.....we need a better OL Coach for next season. Devlin hasn't improved the play of any player he's had a chance to groom.
 
steelbtexan said:
Like I said this offseason, if this was the case they wouldn't have been chasing after Solder. For all of you lets see how the new OL looks before we start to judge guys, how long before we judge them?

Davenport is what he's always been and just like his cousin isn't likely to improve to starter level quality. IMHO

Meanwhile the Cleveland OL with rookie UDFA LT Harrison was solid against the Saints.
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They gave up 3 sacks against the Saints who couldn't get any pressure on tampa bay the week before, far from solid
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Damn we need a better OL Coach!!!
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Is Bruce Matthews still retired? He was an offensive lines coach for the Titans from 2011 to 2013. After being an assistant here in 2009 and 2010. I would try to bring him out of retirement if he's interested in taking the job here. Matthews would be way better than Mike Devlin. Bruce Matthews is like 57 years old now. He may enjoy his retirement.
 
Shishkabob said:
PFF Rankings

Martinas Rankin 58th OT
Julie'n Davenport 52nd OT
Nick Martin 12th C
Zach Fulton 24th OG
Senio Kelemente 45th OG
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The good news... It's not nearly as bad as our 2002 expansion season offensive line that got David Carr sacked an NFL record 76 times! Or even our 2005 offensive line which got Carr sacked 68 times, third most in NFL History.
 
Bulls on Parade said:
The good news... It's not nearly as bad as our 2002 expansion season offensive line that got David Carr sacked an NFL record 76 times! Or even our 2005 offensive line which got Carr sacked 68 times, third most in NFL History.
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Rankin will easily improve with experience, we have to remember not only is he a rookie, but he missed almost the entire off season program. If he cleaned up just his mental errors from last game he would jump up a bit
 
vupac1 said:
So, as YOU yourself so often claim, did Cleveland "get what they pay for" out of UDFA Harrison?
Or did their staff coach him up?
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Nope, they took a chance on a talented but troubled guy. Something the Texans never do and one of the reasons the Texans OL is in the shape it's in today.

Plus they get a starting LT on a cheap contract for the next 4 yrs.

This is what I'm talking about when I say the Texans will never win anything until they change their organizational philosophy.

I would've paid for Solder/Norwell drafted Rankin in the 3rd rd and drafted Harrison in the 6th rd. The Ol wouldn't have the issues it has keeping its franchise QB coming off an ACL from being under constant pressure.
 
Shishkabob said:
That UDFA is ok with SteelB because it was his pre-draft man crush
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This is BS.

I dont have mancrushes, (Although Jimmy G was as close as I will get to having one.) I just want the most talented players on the team, because if you dont have this philosophy you keep getting the same crap the Texans put on the field yr after yr.

You should want this philosophy for any team you cheer for too.
 
Shishkabob said:
They gave up 3 sacks against the Saints who couldn't get any pressure on tampa bay the week before, far from solid
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From what I saw/read the Saints got those sacks off of blitzes and otherwise the Browns OL had an outstanding day. I watched about 1/2 of that game. How much did you watch or did you just read the stat line?

The Browns could be pretty good if Hue Jackson would go on leave for the rest of the season.
 
Shishkabob said:
PFF Rankings

Martinas Rankin 58th OT
Julie'n Davenport 52nd OT
Nick Martin 12th C
Zach Fulton 24th OG
Senio Kelemente 45th OG
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Not really a surprise I guess, except for Martin recovering from his injury nicely (if these rankings are accurate). Fulton was always expected to be the strong point.
 
steelbtexan said:
I appreciate the article, but trust me if Gaine had given the Texans top of the 3rd rd pick Brown would be a Texan today. There never was a prearranged deal.

But it does make for a nice narrative.
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not necessarily, GMs sometimes don't take the best deal, ala Jimmy G. It's been reported the browns offer was much better than the 49ers but BB didn't want him to go to the **** hole that is Cleveland. You asked for proof I provided proof, that writer has more insight than either of us, sorry it doesn't fit your narrative, but you cant discredit something just because you don't agree with what it is saying. Pre-arranged deals are made all the time between teams. So unless you are John Lynch I don't think you can definitively say this wasn't the Patriots calling to cash in their favor, can you?
 
steelbtexan said:
Nope, they took a chance on a talented but troubled guy. Something the Texans never do and one of the reasons the Texans OL is in the shape it's in today.

Plus they get a starting LT on a cheap contract for the next 4 yrs.

This is what I'm talking about when I say the Texans will never win anything until they change their organizational philosophy.

I would've paid for Solder/Norwell drafted Rankin in the 3rd rd and drafted Harrison in the 6th rd. The Ol wouldn't have the issues it has keeping its franchise QB coming off an ACL from being under constant pressure.
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Oh yes they took so much of a chance signing him as an UDFA....
 
steelbtexan said:
From what I saw/read the Saints got those sacks off of blitzes and otherwise the Browns OL had an outstanding day. I watched about 1/2 of that game. How much did you watch or did you just read the stat line?

The Browns could be pretty good if Hue Jackson would go on leave for the rest of the season.
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I watched some of the game while flipping between games. I'll go back and watch it tonight, the browns interior of the line is solid, the tackles are their weak spot. Your boy Harrison graded out 1 spot better than Rankin this week(6 spots worse last week) playing next to a much better LG than Rankin has next to him.
 
Shishkabob said:
I watched some of the game while flipping between games. I'll go back and watch it tonight, the browns interior of the line is solid, the tackles are their weak spot. Your boy Harrison graded out 1 spot better than Rankin this week(6 spots worse last week) playing next to a much better LG than Rankin has next to him.
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Watching the game He looked like a starting LT to me.

Basically like Rankins, a little better actually. Good plays with some mistakes. That could be because of the OG next to him as you said.

Would you rather have a guy like Harrison and Rankin playing OT rather than Davenport? This is the point I'm trying to make, they need to take some chances on talented but troubled guys if they are going to upgrade the talent level which is currently lacking on this team and this has nothing to do with Harrison.

Teams like the Pats added Gordon yesterday (I wouldn't have done that.) Could you ever see the Texans org taking a chance on a guy like Gordon? I cant but until they do start taking a chance on a few of these guys every so often you can expect more of the same. I've been saying this for yrs.
 
Shishkabob said:
not necessarily, GMs sometimes don't take the best deal, ala Jimmy G. It's been reported the browns offer was much better than the 49ers but BB didn't want him to go to the **** hole that is Cleveland. You asked for proof I provided proof, that writer has more insight than either of us, sorry it doesn't fit your narrative, but you cant discredit something just because you don't agree with what it is saying. Pre-arranged deals are made all the time between teams. So unless you are John Lynch I don't think you can definitively say this wasn't the Patriots calling to cash in their favor, can you?
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I can say most good GM's take the best deals and I think Lynch is a good GM. BB wanted Jimmy G to go to a NFC team.

Jesus, you think NFL GM's are giving out talented guys because they are being charitable? LOL

Nope, it seems like you're making excuses for the Texans regime. BTW, I would've given up more than just a 3rd rd pick for Brown. Keeping Watson protected was the most important thing that BOB/Gaine could've done this offseason and they failed in that mission. Which is why the team currently sits where it sits.
 
steelbtexan said:
Watching the game He looked like a starting LT to me.

Basically like Rankins, a little better actually. Good plays with some mistakes. That could be because of the OG next to him as you said.

Would you rather have a guy like Harrison and Rankin playing OT rather than Davenport? This is the point I'm trying to make, they need to take some chances on talented but troubled guys if they are going to upgrade the talent level which is currently lacking on this team and this has nothing to do with Harrison.

Teams like the Pats added Gordon yesterday (I wouldn't have done that.) Could you ever see the Texans org taking a chance on a guy like Gordon? I cant but until they do start taking a chance on a few of these guys every so often you can expect more of the same. I've been saying this for yrs.
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but we don't know if the Texans or anyone else other than the Browns made a play for Harrison as an UDFA, we only know the team he signed with. Like I've said to you before I think Gaine went about this off season differently than Smith would have, I think he took a chance on guys Smith wouldn't have. Gaine learned from Parcell's who didn't mind a guy that had some baggage as long as he could play, and I think that is Gaine's mentality as well. I think you have to give it more than 1 off season before saying we are doing the same thing we always do.
 
steelbtexan said:
I can say most good GM's take the best deals and I think Lynch is a good GM. BB wanted Jimmy G to go to a NFC team.

Jesus, you think NFL GM's are giving out talented guys because they are being charitable? LOL

Nope, it seems like you're making excuses for the Texans regime. BTW, I would've given up more than just a 3rd rd pick for Brown. Keeping Watson protected was the most important thing that BOB/Gaine could've done this offseason and they failed in that mission. Which is why the team currently sits where it sits.
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This league has a lot of the "if i scratch your back, you scratch mine" mentality. If you don't think BB, the best HC/GM of the last decade, didn't tell Lynch who he is supposedly close with that he might need a favor in the future then you are very naive.
 
I just think fans really think
Shishkabob said:
This league has a lot of the "if i scratch your back, you scratch mine" mentality. If you don't think BB, the best HC of the last decade, didn't tell Lynch who he is supposedly close with that he might need a favor in the future then you are very naive.
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FIFY..his record in the draft and FA acquisitions is atrocious.
 
Mr teX said:
I just think fans really think


FIFY..his record in the draft and FA acquisitions is atrocious.
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If the end goal of both of those is to win rings, then he is great. His players might not have the individual accolades others have, but the ultimate goal is to get players that fit your system well enough to win championships and he has done that better than anyone in the past decade
 
Corrosion said:
State of the OL …. bad from the outset and getting worse. We are one injury away from Lamm getting on the field.

Cant believe Gaine went into the season with such a lack of quality (Lamm) and unproven players (Davenport , Rankin , Kelemete) at such important positions. Half of the guys you kept along the OL are …. projects.
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They have alignment
 
Shishkabob said:
If the end goal of both of those is to win rings, then he is great. His players might not have the individual accolades others have, but the ultimate goal is to get players that fit your system well enough to win championships and he has done that better than anyone in the past decade
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Your conclusion is flawed & aiken to completing your end of year budget with a deficit, and then adding money from a savings account somewhere to erase the deficit so it gives the appearance you hit your budget. In Belichick's case, the savings account he's been drawing from for years is TB12.
 
Corrosion said:
State of the OL …. bad from the outset and getting worse. We are one injury away from Lamm getting on the field.

Cant believe Gaine went into the season with such a lack of quality (Lamm) and unproven players (Davenport , Rankin , Kelemete) at such important positions. Half of the guys you kept along the OL are …. projects.
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//// End Thread

And they will get what they failed to plan for by the end of the yr.
 
Kelemete is a liability on the line right now he was getting whipped by whoever lined up across from him. He did no favors in helping out a rookie tackle in his first start.
 
Corrosion said:
State of the OL …. bad from the outset and getting worse. We are one injury away from Lamm getting on the field.

Cant believe Gaine went into the season with such a lack of quality (Lamm) and unproven players (Davenport , Rankin , Kelemete) at such important positions. Half of the guys you kept along the OL are …. projects.
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I honestly think this is "alignment" with OB. OB is trying to be BB and BB doesn't spend big bucks on OL. OB is no BB and it's immediately obvious with the product he puts on the field. NE doesn't have a fantastic OL, so BB adjusts his game to their strengths. OB doesn't have a cousin to a fantastic OL and he calls the same stupid plays over and over, getting his prized QB pummeled.
 
Mr teX said:
Your conclusion is flawed & aiken to completing your end of year budget with a deficit, and then adding money from a savings account somewhere to erase the deficit so it gives the appearance you hit your budget. In Belichick's case, the savings account he's been drawing from for years is TB12.
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except their defense, the other half of the team in which TB12 has nothing to do with, has been stellar the whole time to. In 16 years, the patriots have only finished outside the top 10 3 times. in those 12 years the worst scoring defense the patriots have had allowed just 21.6 pts per game. If you seriously think TB12 is the only reason for that teams success then I would say you don't know much about football.

Rodgers 1 ring
Brees 1 ring
Manning 2 rings on 2 different teams

That's 4 rings and 5 superbowl appaearances by 3 other first ballot HOF QBs, still under the patriots and tom's 5 rings and 8 appearances
 
Shishkabob said:
except their defense, the other half of the team in which TB12 has nothing to do with, has been stellar the whole time to. In 16 years, the patriots have only finished outside the top 10 3 times. in those 12 years the worst scoring defense the patriots have had allowed just 21.6 pts per game. If you seriously think TB12 is the only reason for that teams success then I would say you don't know much about football.

Rodgers 1 ring
Brees 1 ring
Manning 2 rings on 2 different teams

That's 4 rings and 5 superbowl appaearances by 3 other first ballot HOF QBs, still under the patriots and tom's 5 rings and 8 appearances
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They've been regarded as good been b/c they have a guy on the other side under center who's good for 25+ pts a game & can bail them out most times. Apart from that, that shows more of Belichick's coaching pralis than his pralis as a GM. winning rings is a team sport buddy.
 
Mr teX said:
They've been regarded as good been b/c they have a guy on the other side under center who's good for 25+ pts a game & can bail them out most times. Apart from that, that shows more of Belichick's coaching pralis than his pralis as a GM. winning rings is a team sport buddy.
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Which is what I was implying with my post. Again Belichek generally won't have a bunch of guys at the top of their respective category, but what he does is gets guys that fit well into his system which is the job of a GM correct? He is good at flipping players on expiring contracts for draft capital, which is also something good GMs do correct?

and the Pats defense isn't regarded as good because of TB can score a lot, they are regarded as good, because they have been good for quite some time now as 13 top 10 finishes in 16 years will attest. The GMs job is to get players the coach can coach up and turn them into a winning team, BB has done both jobs perfectly fine for years now
 
Mr teX said:
They've been regarded as good been b/c they have a guy on the other side under center who's good for 25+ pts a game & can bail them out most times. Apart from that, that shows more of Belichick's coaching pralis than his pralis as a GM. winning rings is a team sport buddy.
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WTF is pralis? Do you mean prowess? For the record, I consider BB to be a much better coach than GM. My :twocents:
 
Shishkabob said:
Which is what I was implying with my post. Again Belichek generally won't have a bunch of guys at the top of their respective category, but what he does is gets guys that fit well into his system which is the job of a GM correct? He is good at flipping players on expiring contracts for draft capital, which is also something good GMs do correct?

and the Pats defense isn't regarded as good because of TB can score a lot, they are regarded as good, because they have been good for quite some time now as 13 top 10 finishes in 16 years will attest. The GMs job is to get players the coach can coach up and turn them into a winning team, BB has done both jobs perfectly fine for years now
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drafting guys that you think will fit what you do is 1 thing every coach does Belichick isn't special at that sorry...coaching said players up to execute within your scheme & having them take on that "business as usual" mantra that pervades the Pats org...that's quite another thing that most coaches fail at more than they succeed...& that's where Belichick makes his bones & has been for years. The Pats are famous for the "do your job" mentality...matter of fact, Brady was screaming that this past weekend on the sideline to someone.

we can just agree to disagree.
 
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