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State of the O-line

Rankin -- textbook
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Rankin -- my favorite clip. May not look like much but this is why I think he'll be success in the NFL -- instincts/anticipation. He showed it in college and here it is again. Anticipates the stunt here, great footwork.
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Rankin -- overpowered by the bull rush. Not horrible but needs to stand his ground better than this.
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Ummm if you make it to the NFL and actually plays, you are playing with fire.

Brady, Big Ben, Drew Breeze, and Aaron Rodgers have played with terrible offensive lines.
 
TheKDog said:
My issue is Gaine was here for several offseasons, including the ones where we dismantled the OL, and during the O'Brien era they haven't found an offensive skill player of note besides Will Fuller. And they've used a lot of picks on them.

To me if it's another bottom 10 offensive year for the 5 the year in a row, O'Brien shouldnt get a 6th. What would change? Crennel can stay.
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But Gaine wasn't in charge.

He just did pro personnel. Notice how that fell off when Rate replaced Gaine?
 
none of that has to do with my original question. if you are saying McNair is hamstringing Gaine by telling him he cant spend money, than one can assume he did that to Rick during his tenure here. To say otherwise just makes you a hypocrite. who knows maybe if Rick wasn't being told he couldn't spend money he would have signed more marquee free agents like you seem to want, maybe he wouldn't have had to re-sign injured players as often. You cant make some bs excuse because Gaine didnt go after the player you wanted him to, but then say that excuse doesnt apply to Rick because you dislike him. just admit you think your boy messed up by not pursuing norwell.
but honestly there is a very simple explanation why we didnt go after Norwell. and that's because they wanted Solder more. they went after him from the beginning, he signed for $16 mil a year, so that would have dropped us down to $14 mil(less than norwell got) also you had to factor in they needed money for a potential clowney extension which depending on the numbers and how front loaded they would make it would have added an additional $6-8 mil to our current spending dropping us down to a total of $8-6 million remaining. we wouldn't have had the room to sign the 2 highest paid offensive line contracts at the time, and it's not smart to do as such
 
I don't have a. Boy in the football game.

Ricky wasn't good at his job and got fired because of it. Hopefully Gaine is better at his job than Ricky with the same constraints that McNair has put on both Gaine and Ricky.

Yes, The McNair model sucks and Gaine could have done a better job in fa.

Let's move on.
 
steelbtexan said:
I don't have a. Boy in the football game.

Ricky wasn't good at his job and got fired because of it. Hopefully Gaine is better at his job than Ricky with the same constraints that McNair has put on both Gaine and Ricky.

Yes, The McNair model sucks and Gaine could have done a better job in fa.

Let's move on.
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Why not let the Texans play some meaningful games before declaring Gaine could've done better in FA. I'm glad the Texans didn't break the bank for Nate Solder. If he was all that and a bag of chips, The Emperor wouldn't have just let him walk like he did.
 
For the love of God can we please stop referring to Nate Solder as a "all pro tackle".. He's never been a all pro, hell he's never even been selected to the freaking pro bowl in his career. He's never even made the NFL's top 100 list.

He's a average at best tackle who's play showed signs of decline last season.
This can be broken down as simple supply & demand. All of these teams needed a left tackle, making the demand for one very high. The supply however, as stated before, was very limited. Not only was the free agent tackle market weak, but the tackles available in the 2018 NFL draft have also been labeled as poor by observers. When demand is high and supply is low, the price goes up and that’s exactly what happened with Solder. Solder signed a 4-year, $62 million dollar deal with the Giants, making him the highest paid offensive lineman in the NFL. Paying Nate Solder $62 million dollars isn’t just an overpay, it may be one of the worst contracts in the NFL. Furthermore, it goes directly against the Patriots philosophy....

Nate Solder should not be the highest paid offensive lineman in the NFL. Solder wasn’t even the best offensive lineman on his own team leat year, nevermind the NFL. Both Shaq Mason and David Andrews made Pro Football Focus’ list of top 25 offensive lineman. Solder didn’t. In fact, just among offensive tackles Solder ranked 32nd according to Pro Football Focus, putting him at “average” on their grading scale. That ranking puts him behind Cameron Fleming, who the Patriots still might re-sign at a contact that would be much less than Nate Solder’s deal...

Nate Solder is not the league’s best tackle, he’s not even ONE OF the league’s best tackles according to his stats. Boston Sports Journal’s Greg Bedard reported that Solder gave up 74 total quarterback pressures last season, more than double what anyone else on the line gave up. Solder was overrated by most of the NFL, overvalued because of the spotlight he got in New England, and overpaid by the Giants because of a low supply and a high demand. Nate Solder has had a rough past few years and he deserves to be commended and respected for his time with the Patriots, but he was not a great left tackle in New England, he was an average one. There are plenty of words to describe Nate Solder: strong, tough, resilient, etc., but another one is... replaceable.
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https://www.guybostonsports.com/posts/nate-solder-not-a-big-loss-for-the-patriots

Personally I think we dodged a damn bullet by Solder signing the Giants offer sheet. I keep hearing what "winning teams do/don't do", well here is something I KNOW WINNING TEAMS DON'T DO.. They don't sign vastly overrated players to huge bloated contracts that become a albatross on the salary cap. Solder will never live up to that contract and you'd think we would learn our lesson with desperation signings by now after the Assweiler deal.

I'm so so glad that deal fell through. The guy is not a top tackle and is clearly on the decline who just went for the FA dollars. Where's his motivation going to be now that he has his guaranteed dollars/is fat and happy and isn't playing for Super Bowls anymore? Ed Reed anyone?
 
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I'm just saying dont try to tell me they did everything possible to protect Watson when clearly they didn't and I gave a couple of examples. If everything works great, but BOB/Gaine are doing nothing more than gambling. Why? when they didn't have too.
 
Carr Bombed said:
For the love of God can we please stop referring to Nate Solder as a "all pro tackle".. He's never been a all pro, hell he's never even been selected to the freaking pro bowl in his career. He's never even made the NFL's top 100 list.

He's a average at best tackle who's play showed signs of decline last season.


https://www.guybostonsports.com/posts/nate-solder-not-a-big-loss-for-the-patriots

Personally I think we dodged a damn bullet by Solder signing the Giants offer sheet. I keep hearing what "winning teams do/don't do", well here is something I KNOW WINNING TEAMS DON'T DO.. They don't sign vastly overrated players to huge bloated contracts that become a albatross on the salary cap. Solder will never live up to that contract and you'd think we would learn our lesson with desperation signings by now after the Assweiler deal.

I'm so so glad that deal fell through. The guy is not a top tackle and is clearly on the decline who just went for the FA dollars. Where's his motivation going to be now that he has his guaranteed dollars/is fat and happy and isn't playing for Super Bowls anymore? Ed Reed anyone?
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I was referring to Norwell, others are referring to my stance on Solder. Norwell is an all pro.

You're right they may have dodged a bulet with Solder or Watson may get hurt because they didn't spend the $$$$ to sign Solder AND Norwell. That's not a risk I would be willing to take.
 
steelbtexan said:
I'm just saying dont try to tell me they did everything possible to protect Watson when clearly they didn't and I gave a couple of examples. If everything works great, but BOB/Gaine are doing nothing more than gambling. Why? when they didn't have too.
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Signing Solder (who they DID make a great offer/attempt to sign even if you don't believe so, because it doesn't fit your narrative.) would've been a HUGE gamble.. For Christ's sake the guy was giving up nearly 5 QB pressures a game, blocking for the G.O.A.T. who has one of the fastest release times in NFL history. That is NOT good Oline play, especially from the LT position and certainly not worth the richest contract in NFL history.

Again, dodged a huge bullet there. I rather let our young guys grow and develop and they have bigger upsides on way more team friendly contracts compared to a overpaid declining football player who was nothing more than average (not all pro, not even a pro bowler) before his decline.
 
steelbtexan said:
I was referring to Norwell, others are referring to my stance on Solder. Norwell is an all pro.

You're right they may have dodged a bulet with Solder or Watson may get hurt because they didn't spend the $$$$ to sign Solder AND Norwell. That's not a risk I would be willing to take.
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Again almost 5 QB pressures a game blocking for the best to ever lace them up.. Solder was not a lockdown QB protector so even if we did sign him we still would be risking injury to Watson..we'd just be paying a lot more for it.
 
Carr Bombed said:
Again almost 5 QB pressures a game blocking for the best to ever lace them up.. Solder was not a lockdown QB protector so even if we did sign him we still would be risking injury to Watson..we'd just be paying a lot more for it.
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How many times did the Pats throw compared to the league avg?

Forget about the Solder debate, tell me do you think McNair/Gaine/BOB did everything in their power to protect Watson as best as they possibly could?
 
Carr Bombed said:
Who cares.. He gave up more than double the pressures as the next guy who played on his line.. This wasn't a passing total issue, it was a performance issue.
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If a team throws 45/50 times a game chances are they're going to give up more pressures compared to a team that throws 25-30 times a game.

If Watson gets hurt again everybody will care. Even though some wont admit they were wrong. (Not you)
 
steelbtexan said:
If a team throws 45/50 times a game chances are they're going to give up more pressures compared to a team that throws 25-30 times a game.

If Watson gets hurt again everybody will care. Even though some wont admit they were wrong.
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Yes..but do they give up more than double than the rest of their teammates who are ALSO blocking for a QB who's throwing 45/50 times a game?

BTW. Tom Brady averaged 36.3 pass attempts per game last year.. He actually averaged more in years 2011-2015 (And less than 1 pass less in 2016) and Solder didn't play that poorly.

Deshaun Watson averaged 31.3 pass attempts per game last year.. a measly 5 pass attempts less which is amazing seeing how our defense couldn't get off the damn field so he was actaully passing and had the ball in his hands at a higher rate than Brady. The Patriots simply had more possessions.

And if Watson gets hurt I'm not going to sit here and say.."Damn we should've broke the bank for Solder" (especially since that's exactly what they tried to do.) I'm going to say "We need to get better up front".. I just don't believe Solder is the answer to that problem.
 
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If he gets hurt ... Which seems to be the expectation buried behind "I hope I'm wrong" then you deal with it like a man. Put on your big boy pants and move forward. This board has a huge case of paralysis by analysis and get hung up on 'what could happen'.

This is the best QB prospect this team has ever had. Fans should be pumped up, and most of them I talk to are. And if you guys who are predicting further injury are right well then what do y'all want? Lol a gift card to Landry's? Become a TT Mod of a a new forum called IM ALWAYS RIGHT? LOL. What happens if y'all are wrong? Well each and every season you will bring up the same tired bullshit. Sad.
 
What we saw last year from our o-line is what we will see again this year. Watson will somehow make them look good, but with anyone other than Watson the line will show how pathetic it is.

I hate this dependency on one player. The Texans rise an fall on Watson, and that's it. Glad he's here, but this team is dogshit without him.
 
Thorn said:
What we saw last year from our o-line is what we will see again this year. Watson will somehow make them look good, but with anyone other than Watson the line will show how pathetic it is.

I hate this dependency on one player. The Texans rise an fall on Watson, and that's it. Glad he's here, but this team is dogshit without him.
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Have you seen most teams without their franchise QB (Packers last season for example)?
 
Thorn said:
What we saw last year from our o-line is what we will see again this year. Watson will somehow make them look good, but with anyone other than Watson the line will show how pathetic it is.

I hate this dependency on one player. The Texans rise an fall on Watson, and that's it. Glad he's here, but this team is dogshit without him.
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Most teams are like this if the starting QB goes down pretty much the majority of teams in the league are screwed. Thats the downside of a salary cap league the backups can't be high dollar players.
 
TheRealJoker said:
Have you seen most teams without their franchise QB (Packers last season for example)?
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The eagles won the super bowl and minnesota made the conference championship. Even jax made it pretty far with garbage at QB.

You shouldn't fall apart that much without your starting QB. But you will if your backup is weeden.
 
Thorn said:
What we saw last year from our o-line is what we will see again this year. Watson will somehow make them look good, but with anyone other than Watson the line will show how pathetic it is.

I hate this dependency on one player. The Texans rise an fall on Watson, and that's it. Glad he's here, but this team is dogshit without him.
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The offense is dependent on two guys. Maybe 3 if Fuller keeps improving.

The defense is not dependent on one guy, and can be good even without Watt and/or Clowney.

I'll leave it to everyone to make conclusions as to why that is.
 
I mean this team did go 9-7 three years in a row, made the playoffs twice, and was an osweiler away from dethroning the Pat's in foxboro all without Watson, and before we had a historic numbers of injuries. Obviously the 9-7 get to the divisional round isnt where we want to be, but it's far from dogshit. We just dont have depth in a lot of places so those injuries effect us bad, but I believe we are making strides.
 
Shishkabob said:
I mean this team did go 9-7 three years in a row, made the playoffs twice, and was an osweiler away from dethroning the Pat's in foxboro all without Watson, and before we had a historic numbers of injuries. Obviously the 9-7 get to the divisional round isnt where we want to be, but it's far from dogshit. We just dont have depth in a lot of places so those injuries effect us bad, but I believe we are making strides.
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That's right, the defense has been pretty darn good most of the time under crennel
 
Uncle Rico said:
If he gets hurt ... Which seems to be the expectation buried behind "I hope I'm wrong" then you deal with it like a man. Put on your big boy pants and move forward. This board has a huge case of paralysis by analysis and get hung up on 'what could happen'.

This is the best QB prospect this team has ever had. Fans should be pumped up, and most of them I talk to are. And if you guys who are predicting further injury are right well then what do y'all want? Lol a gift card to Landry's? Become a TT Mod of a a new forum called IM ALWAYS RIGHT? LOL. What happens if y'all are wrong? Well each and every season you will bring up the same tired bullshit. Sad.
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I'm not predicting injury.

But given his injury history and the fact that a renowned surgeon is worried about his injury history, I think it's only prudent to be concerned about Watson getting hurt particularly behind the newly revamped OL. This is the same reason I wanted Savage to be the starter/take the beating last yr.
 
TheKDog said:
That's right, the defense has been pretty darn good most of the time under crennel
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They were also pretty darn good under Phillips. Offense under OB had a much bigger change to overcome than that. I'm not in anyway ignoring OB's warts ( he has lots of them ). And He didn't have to totally change them but he did. Much more difficult to go to a power 'game plan' scheme from a ZBS than from Wade's 3-4 to RAC's 3-4. Defense had most of the pieces in place. Coaching and talent has been an issue the the teams inception
 
JB said:
They were also pretty darn good under Phillips. Offense under OB had a much bigger change to overcome than that. I'm not in anyway ignoring OB's warts ( he has lots of them ). And He didn't have to totally change them but he did. Much more difficult to go to a power 'game plan' scheme from a ZBS than from Wade's 3-4 to RAC's 3-4. Defense had most of the pieces in place. Coaching and talent has been an issue the the teams inception
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JB, would you say we are employing more of a "power" than a "zone" blocking scheme ? Which would you prefer. What changes would you make ?
 
JB said:
I have no idea what the Texans are employing. I just want something that works and I don't know that this versatile thing does
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I’ll tell you exactly what this versatile thing does, not a god damn thing. That’s what! We need to find our damn identity instead of this imaginary game planning per opponent bullsh*t that hasn’t worked for the past 4, going on 5 years.
 
JB said:
They were also pretty darn good under Phillips. Offense under OB had a much bigger change to overcome than that. I'm not in anyway ignoring OB's warts ( he has lots of them ). And He didn't have to totally change them but he did. Much more difficult to go to a power 'game plan' scheme from a ZBS than from Wade's 3-4 to RAC's 3-4. Defense had most of the pieces in place. Coaching and talent has been an issue the the teams inception
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True but he did come in with a top 10 OL and DeAndre Hopkins.

When I compare the two units, I see a lot more post kubiak talent on the defense, which should be the case 5 years later. I don't on offense.
 
Mangler said:
I’ll tell you exactly what this versatile thing does, not a god damn thing. That’s what! We need to find our damn identity instead of this imaginary game planning per opponent bullsh*t that hasn’t worked for the past 4, going on 5 years.
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My memory is that there were a large number of posts in the Kubiak era calling for the offense to respond to what the defense gives , use more diversity and audible more.

(you personally may not have said those things)
 
Yeah when I saw that, I was surprised as I thought a pull, tear or break. He should be good by game 1. Comments from O'Brien saying Henderson gave Watt good workout offered hope RT may not be as big of worry as I have thought. Fulton should help with his experience keeping our young centers solid.
 
badboy said:
Yeah when I saw that, I was surprised as I thought a pull, tear or break. He should be good by game 1. Comments from O'Brien saying Henderson gave Watt good workout offered hope RT may not be as big of worry as I have thought. Fulton should help with his experience keeping our young centers solid.
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I'll have no more of this nonsense. Gaine did a terrible job in FA this year because McNair is a tightwad.


:sarcasm:
 
DocBar said:
I'll have no more of this nonsense. Gaine did a terrible job in FA this year because McNair is a tightwad.


:sarcasm:
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And you know Doc another thing about McNair that's so frustrating is his rule forbidding Gaine from signing any convicted serial rapists or serial murderers. McNair is such a goody-to-shoes 'cause you know players with that kind of criminal history tend to have an edge, they bring a certain kind of chemistry to the locker room.
 
ArlingtonTexan said:
My memory is that there were a large number of posts in the Kubiak era calling for the offense to respond to what the defense gives , use more diversity and audible more.

(you personally may not have said those things)
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Kubiak's head would've exploded. His "make every play look the same" mantra couldn't abide such a thing.
 
Shishkabob said:
the patriots have spent the 2nd least amount of money since 2013, well before this off season. but yea so the best team since 2013 has spent the 2nd fewest in free agency. Free agency spending does not equal winning
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Bill Belichick + GOAT = Win.
 
justmy2cents said:
Well, for some reason that I've never heard, they jettisoned Myers, Brisiel, and Winston ... we've focused on defense since then !
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Briesel had repeated foot injuries, calf tears, MCL tears, high ankle sprains and finally a fibula fracture with the Texans. He went to the Raiders and continued to have the same problems and after 1 year had major high ankle surgery, was released and retired (considered retirement even before being released. Despite being a fan favorite Chris Meyers was a system ZBS center and saw his performance (especially in terms of containing stronger D) decline significantly his last year with the Texans. With an $ 8 million anticipated cap hit, his salary was way too rich for his performance. He was considered decent as a run blocker, but a significant liability as a pass blocker, and was considered at the time the 33rd of 41 C in the League. Again, although it was said that several teams were interested in him after his release, he went unsigned and retired. Winston was again a system ZBS player who was a very good run blocker, but a poor pass protector. His knee was beginning to give him significant problems despite the fact he never missed a game. He required knee surgery following his release by the Texans. Winston was seeking to be the highest paid OT in the NFL. It was never going to happen by any team, but certainly not by the Texans. After he left the Texans, his performance was never the same. He bounced around in the League until he played only the role of "plug in" for the Bengals, finally fizzling out. Also many felt that while in Houston, he was more interested in his exposure/publicity as a sports talk host than his trade. In line with this, Winston was always very vocal and seeking publicity beginning with the 2011 lockout, subsequent strong NFLPA activities and finally being elected president of the NFLPA.
 
"For One Brief Shining Moment .... Camelot"! I never realized that Briesel had so many injuries. I knew that Winston had 32" arms. Also remember that last season, Meyers was playing at 6'4" and only 290. I think that was the year that Brown was taking ballet classes and strict on a strict diet to increase agility and movement skills .... playing at 303. I guess that proves that even the best of intentions can be taken too far. I remember Kubiak saying that he had wanted Meyers for 3 years. That's the reason he came out of retirement. He said that he couldn't enjoy a game .... all he did was evaluate talent, especially offensive line. When he went back to Denver, it was to go into scouting. I wish we could say the same for our current head coach !
 
DocBar said:
I'm trying to not live in the past....:fans::chef::barman:
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Make fun of me all you like.

Until McNair starts letting his GM operate like all of the other GM's that made the AFCCG/NFCCG then dont expect much to really change. Unless they can stay incredibly healthy.
 
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