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State of the O-line

So hard to evaluate these guys in preseason ….. We've seen teams with high expectations look like world beaters in the preseason then go 2-12 when the lights come on.

I'd like to see Mancz instead of Martin …. he's not looked good , the rest of them have been solid in pass protection and underwhelming in the run game - some of which is on the backs , I just wonder how much is who ….

I think Davenport is gonna be a solid LT ….. which is far from where we were this time last year on him.

What we know is that Watson is going to make them all look better than they are …. hopefully they can find a back who can elevate their play too. I don't think that guy is on the roster.
 
Kendall Lamm started at RT against the Rams - What's that all about ?! Are they trying to get Watson broke up before the season even starts !!??


Davenport's looking pretty solid …. I'm optimistic.

Why is Martin still starting ?! Mancz is flat out better.


Run blocking is still a problem.
 
Corrosion said:
Kendall Lamm started at RT against the Rams - What's that all about ?! Are they trying to get Watson broke up before the season even starts !!??


Davenport's looking pretty solid …. I'm optimistic.

Why is Martin still starting ?! Mancz is flat out better.


Run blocking is still a problem.
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Goes back to my point about Obrien and his offensive line coach doesn't know what they are doing. He is very stuck with this versatile nonsense when it comes to the OL.
 
O'Brien has to know what he has at each position. Henderson has gotten good reviews. Very good to see Rankin in at LT but he also should be able play RT. Anyone see Jones-Smith? I'd like to see Fuller at center some Thurs..just in case. Keyes and Cole didn't stand out as they have first games.
 
Shishkabob said:
I'm not getting overly excited, but I'm not going to be overly negative until I see them truly play either. going from dead last ti average or mediocre in 1 off season without your top 2 picks would be a blessing. it could happen sure, it might not. Kelemente and Fulton both graded higher in pass and run blocking then the guys they are replacing. Martin hopefully can stay healthy, and receive a boost playing along side better waters. I honestly dont think highly of Henderson, but he hasnt looked bad so far, and honestly I cant see him being worse than giacomini. Davenport is young and I expect him to play as such, but he is way more talented then Lamm is so hopefully he will be an upgrade.

It's been one offseason under new management, we invested a good bit to rehaul our oline, there is still work to be done for sure but I dont think it's crazy by any stretch for fans to be happy to see a their team invest in a weak spot and see it pay dividends even if it is early
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They added a bunch of new bodies/backups and will still be better than they were last yr, only because they cant be worse. But lets not try to make it seem like they made some great investment on the OL. Fact is they rebuilt the OL on the cheap.

I hope they enjoy sitting on that 30 mil of cap space. BTW, tell me who do you think on the current roster is even an avg NFL RB? Meanwhile Peterson looked really good the other night. But he got carried away spanking his kid so there was never a chance of him becoming a Texan. # Not Texans worthy
 
@PatDStat: Texans offensive line was not bad around Watson yesterday. Thought they did well. Biggest issue is that the OTs are going to have to get better vs. speed rushers. Kinda heavy footed.

@PatDStat: Last season OB and the offensive staff did a good job of slowing opposing pass rushers with motions and play fakes. Expect the same this year.
 
Texansballer74 said:
If that oline doesn't show any improvements, you can't always blame it on the talent. Coaching has to be held accountable at some point.
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Yep, sign a bunch of backup FA OL and draft a rookie in the 3rd rd. (I was impressed in the little bit I got to see Rankins play) If they dont meet YOUR standards then it's on the coaches. (I got it) Cant be a lack of talent on the OL. Nah, that's not possible.
 
TheKDog said:
@PatDStat: Last season OB and the offensive staff did a good job of slowing opposing pass rushers with motions and play fakes. Expect the same this year.
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It also assisted in our run game which is why I think we'll be better in our run game (than this preseason) when the playbook opens back up in regular season.
 
Texansballer74 said:
These players still need to be coached up period. If they are not up to par, coaching should be held accountable.
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What would you consider par to be, given their middling talent level.

Seems to me like you're asking the coaches to turn these guys into upper tier OL. Like I've said before there's a reason they were let go by their teams/backup OL. Their teams considered them to be very replaceable.
 
Great coaching can get the best out of their players. New England last season for an example. Their offensive line was terrible through week 6. Coaching quickly turned things around. That line got tremendously better.

The champs didn't have a top notch line last season either. But the coaches were able to maximize things and the results were grand.

Steel if you don't think coaching plays big part in the equation. Why are they even out there.

And if you have not seen backups turn into quality starters. I have to question your knowledge of football.
 
TheKDog said:
I think the problem is the guys O'Brien likes for his oline.
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I was typing while you posted this. Are you saying that O'Brien is a poor judge of talent .... or that he, somewhere in his career, decided that talent is not all that important when it comes to offensive linemen ?
 
justmy2cents said:
I was typing while you posted this. Are you saying that O'Brien is a poor judge of talent .... or that he, somewhere in his career, decided that talent is not all that important when it comes to offensive linemen ?
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Interesting question. I don't know, but I think it's a little bit of both. I haven't been impressed with his talent evaluation at any offensive position, and I also think he believes it's mostly about coaching anyways (he often says he and the coaches know how to win).

I sort of feel the guys from the Belichick tree way overvalue coaching for some reason. I mean Belichick is a great coach but I think he's proven it's talent that wins.
 
TheKDog said:
Interesting question. I don't know, but I think it's a little bit of both. I haven't been impressed with his talent evaluation at any offensive position, and I also think he believes it's mostly about coaching anyways (he often says he and the coaches know how to win).

I sort of feel the guys from the Belichick tree way overvalue coaching for some reason. I mean Belichick is a great coach but I think he's proven it's talent that wins.
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My memory has become so terrible .... I can't recall which or how many Great Coaches over the years, admit that the single greatest factor that is common among great coaches is .... talented players !
 
justmy2cents said:
Not all .... evidently Bill is convinced that he can take much lesser OLinemen and, via his immeasurable intellect, make, mold, or will them into good players.
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LOL, well I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he knows the OL sucks but they haven't been able to improve it due to cap constraints or whatever.

Of course there is also the possibility that he thinks this OL is awesome.
 
TheKDog said:
LOL, well I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he knows the OL sucks but they haven't been able to improve it due to cap constraints or whatever.

Of course there is also the possibility that he thinks this OL is awesome.
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Surely he is not that misguided. I will say this .... New England doesn't spend many 1st or 2nd round picks on their line .... and if you ever check the team stats comparisons, they will show that their OLines are not that dominant .... it's Belichick and Brady !!
 
justmy2cents said:
Surely he is not that misguided. I will say this .... New England doesn't spend many 1st or 2nd round picks on their line .... and if you ever check the team stats comparisons, they will show that their OLines are not that dominant .... it's Belichick and Brady !!
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That's why I say it's his coaching.
 
Texansballer74 said:
That's why I say it's his coaching.
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I hardly think their can be a good argument against..........if Brady didn't have such a quick release to compensate for Patriots Oline, you would not see Belichick looking like all that great a coach. If Watson can consistently get the ball out quickly, with the help of O'Brien, he will also continue to compensate for much of an Oline's deficiencies...........just like the pair did last season.
 
I see Rankin as a Chester Pitts type. May play tackle this year out of necessity but best position may ultimately be LG to compensate for his lack of ideal length at the tackle position. Hopefully he can recover fully from his foot injury. In college he showed the ability to be good at pulling and has a high football IQ like Pitts where learning multiple positions andexecuting shouldn’t be an issue.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I hardly think their can be a good argument against..........if Brady didn't have such a quick release to compensate for Patriots Oline, you would not see Belichick looking like all that great a coach. If Watson can consistently get the ball out quickly, with the help of O'Brien, he will also continue to compensate for much of an Oline's deficiencies...........just like the pair did last season.
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Yes Brady smarts and quick decisions and quick release plays a major part. But credit goes to the coaching staff as well for also being able to get the very best out of whatever they have.
 
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TheRealJoker said:
I see Rankin as a Chester Pitts type. May play tackle this year out of necessity but best position may ultimately be LG to compensate for his lack of ideal length at the tackle position. Hopefully he can recover fully from his foot injury. In college he showed the ability to be good at pulling and has a high football IQ like Pitts where learning multiple positions andexecuting shouldn’t be an issue.
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Good analogy. I was pleasantly surprised to see Rankin in. Looks to have a bright future. Like you, I think it will eventually be at guard. I just watched his feet for the first couple of series. They weren't bad, but then he was going against a 2nd or 3rd stringer. His run blocking was about the same. He will turn some of that baby fat into strength. With his solid athleticism and high intangibles, be should become a real asset.
 
Belichick does coach up players, and he doesn't have a line full of first rounders.

But he's not trying to coach up crap either. He needed an RT, so he went out and got Trent Brown not Seantrel Henderson and Kendall Lamm. He also used a first round pick on the OL this year.

11. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
PROJECTED STARTING LINEUP:
Left Tackle: Trent Brown, 79.3 overall grade
Left Guard: Isaiah Wynn, 88.1* (2017 college grade)
Center: David Andrews, 81.8
Right Guard: Shaq Mason, 81.1
Right Tackle: Marcus Cannon, 78.1

2017 season-end rank: 3rd (-8)

While the interior for the Patriots is solid, the big questions come at tackle. Marcus Cannon is coming back from an ankle injury that placed him injured reserve last year and has only one season graded above 80.0 in his career. Trent Brown on the other hand is currently penciled in at left tackle after having spent his career in San Francisco on the right side and only cracking an overall grade above 70.0 in 2017. First-round pick Isaiah Wynn could be the dark horse here to win the starting left tackle job as he allowed all of four pressures last season at the position for Georgia.
 
TheKDog said:
Belichick does coach up players, and he doesn't have a line full of first rounders.

But he's not trying to coach up crap either. He needed an RT, so he went out and got Trent Brown not Seantrel Henderson and Kendall Lamm. He also used a first round pick on the OL this year.

11. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
PROJECTED STARTING LINEUP:
Left Tackle: Trent Brown, 79.3 overall grade
Left Guard: Isaiah Wynn, 88.1* (2017 college grade)
Center: David Andrews, 81.8
Right Guard: Shaq Mason, 81.1
Right Tackle: Marcus Cannon, 78.1

2017 season-end rank: 3rd (-8)

While the interior for the Patriots is solid, the big questions come at tackle. Marcus Cannon is coming back from an ankle injury that placed him injured reserve last year and has only one season graded above 80.0 in his career. Trent Brown on the other hand is currently penciled in at left tackle after having spent his career in San Francisco on the right side and only cracking an overall grade above 70.0 in 2017. First-round pick Isaiah Wynn could be the dark horse here to win the starting left tackle job as he allowed all of four pressures last season at the position for Georgia.
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshua...t-for-season-with-torn-achilles/#47c17d71d782

Tom Brady Loses Some Protection: Patriots' Isaiah Wynn Out For Season With Torn Achilles
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Texansballer74 said:
Great coaching can get the best out of their players. New England last season for an example. Their offensive line was terrible through week 6. Coaching quickly turned things around. That line got tremendously better.

The champs didn't have a top notch line last season either. But the coaches were able to maximize things and the results were grand.

Steel if you don't think coaching plays big part in the equation. Why are they even out there.

And if you have not seen backups turn into quality starters. I have to question your knowledge of football.
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Yes you need good coaching but talent comes first. I don't care how good of a coach you are, if you put four backup OL on your new OL you can hope to be avg at best and we won't even talk about worst.

How many backup OL become above avg starters? 50 per cent maybe? If that's the case then you can guess only two of the four OL will work out even with good coaching.

This is why Rankin's development is so important. Two FA work out and Rankin's develops the OL should be much improved.
 
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justmy2cents said:
That implies that we have inferior offensive line coaching .... is this considered to be the case ?
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Its hard to tell if the coaching is good bad or ugly because they don't seem to be able to evaluate OL talent very well.

These coaches have a hand in Kendall Lamm coming back and Rankin being picked.

Lamm showed us last year that he has no business near an NFL field and Rankin cant even seem to get out of his stance before defenders charge past him to annihilate the QB. If he's an NFL player he's got a lot of improvement to show.

Same guys gave us Breno Guacamole every snap last year and continue to run Martin out there with the starters when Mancz has outplayed him.

Before you can coach them up …. you gotta evaluate who has the talent to get coached up.
 
I'm also a true believer that the team must get better at identifying OL talent in the draft. I think the Gaine / O'Brien team made some nice picks this season but that was mostly done with their hands tied behind their backs. I think they've done a good job at setting the forms for a good foundation going into the 2019 NFL Draft.

As for the Texans problem.....O'Brien and team have failed to identify a OL scheme that best fits the talent they have gathered. Everyone knows that O'Brien wants to execute a power scheme but the talent they have accumulated seems better suited to execute a ZBS. How do they finally get together and get this figured out before the next draft / FA period so the foundation can be set properly going into next season?
 
OptimisticTexan said:
I'm also a true believer that the team must get better at identifying OL talent in the draft. I think the Gaine / O'Brien team made some nice picks this season but that was mostly done with their hands tied behind their backs. I think they've done a good job at setting the forms for a good foundation going into the 2019 NFL Draft.

As for the Texans problem.....O'Brien and team have failed to identify a OL scheme that best fits the talent they have gathered. Everyone knows that O'Brien wants to execute a power scheme but the talent they have accumulated seems better suited to execute a ZBS. How do they finally get together and get this figured out before the next draft / FA period so the foundation can be set properly going into next season?
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If the OL is atrocious again I don't want to give obrien yet another year to fix a problem he created, because I really don't think he knows how.
 
steelbtexan said:
Yep, sign a bunch of backup FA OL and draft a rookie in the 3rd rd. (I was impressed in the little bit I got to see Rankins play) If they dont meet YOUR standards then it's on the coaches. (I got it) Cant be a lack of talent on the OL. Nah, that's not possible.
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I've been pleasantly surprised with Davenport so far this preseason. he still has a ways to go, but I think he will be better than what we had there last year. Fulton has been the most solid on our line, Henderson has looked decent, looks like he will get exposed by speed rushers though. he also missed this last game with an unknown issue which is worrisome because Lamm is not good. Rankins looked solid for the most part, there were some plays where he looked a little lost but he looked better than I expected with only a weeks worth of practice since rookie camp.

Martin and Kelemente have just looked bad. both get blown up consistently, Kelementes base has just been ****. I dont get it he was solid for the saints, starting I think 14 games last year. Maybe we should just not have Somoans play left guard for us.

the line will be better than last year I believe, if I had to guess they will probably finish around 20th-25th.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
As for the Texans problem.....O'Brien and team have failed to identify a OL scheme that best fits the talent they have gathered. Everyone knows that O'Brien wants to execute a power scheme but the talent they have accumulated seems better suited to execute a ZBS. How do they finally get together and get this figured out before the next draft / FA period so the foundation can be set properly going into next season?
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Actually, O'Brien wants have a "gameplan" scheme with linemen that can execute either power or zone based on the match-up each week. A system like this when poorly executed seems like a non-scheme (what we have seen too often under O'Brien).
 
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Shishkabob said:
Martin and Kelemente have just looked bad. both get blown up consistently, Kelementes base has just been ****. I dont get it he was solid for the saints, starting I think 14 games last year. Maybe we should just not have Somoans play left guard for us.

the line will be better than last year I believe, if I had to guess they will probably finish around 20th-25th.
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Kelemete only started 8 games for the Saints last season.
 
I should not have deleted the game, very varied reviews on Rankin, see things around mauling people on running game to also being a turnstile on passing downs. Hope to see him more this week, really need a viable swing tackle and competition for henderson
 
I dunno do we have an explanation yet for OT Hendrsons absence from the Saturday night game in LA ? Coachs doggy house, injury, illness, etc ?
 
steelbtexan said:
Seems to me like you're asking the coaches to turn these guys into upper tier OL. Like I've said before there's a reason they were let go by their teams/backup OL. Their teams considered them to be very replaceable.
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Using that same logic, I take it you’re happy we didn’t sign Solder or Norwell. There must be a reason their former teams didn’t care for re-signing them.
 
dream_team said:
Using that same logic, I take it you’re happy we didn’t sign Solder or Norwell. There must be a reason their former teams didn’t care for re-signing them.
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Yep, don't need those all pro players. You really got me on that one.
 
IDEXAN said:
I dunno do we have an explanation yet for OT Hendrsons absence from the Saturday night game in LA ? Coachs doggy house, injury, illness, etc ?
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Henderson first sat out Tues Aug 14 practice and hasn't played since. There has been no identification of the injury........just O'Brien saying it was "minor."
In March of 2011, Henderson required a back surgery, and only played in 8 games that season. As back problems commonly recur, hopefully, this is not a back problem falsely diagnosed as a minor muscle strain.
 
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steelbtexan said:
Yep, don't need those all pro players. You really got me on that one.
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solder definitely wasn't all pro, but he is just saying your logic is flawed. teams try to re-sign guys all the time and they still walk. Saints tried re-signing Kelemente because he brought value as the 6th man which you need. He wanted to be a full time starter so he left. It's not that his team didnt care to re-sign him.
 
Shishkabob said:
solder definitely wasn't all pro, but he is just saying your logic is flawed. teams try to re-sign guys all the time and they still walk. Saints tried re-signing Kelemente because he brought value as the 6th man which you need. He wanted to be a full time starter so he left. It's not that his team didnt care to re-sign him.
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No sh!t, I thought that is a given. Give me the starting LT SB winner and an all rpo like Norwell. You can have the Henderson,Kelemete's of the world and you tell me which one of us have the better OL..
 
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