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2017 Defensive Backs

TexansSeminole

TexansSeminole

Hall of Fame
Some of the safety talk is bleeding into other threads and I didn't want to derail those threads too much. Post your thoughts on the prospects here.

I have been watching tape (draft breakdown YouTube videos) of some of these safeties. It's the best way that I can find to watch prospects, but admittedly an all-22 would help tremendously in watching safety and corner play.

Some thoughts:

Malik Hooker, FS, Ohio State:

I watched Oklahoma, Penn State, Clemson, and Michigan. He plays a lot of centerfield and shows elite range to the sideline. Good recognition on pass plays. Excels on deep throws where he can run the ball down. He does well in tight coverage downfield when he needs to run with receivers and positions his body well to be in a good position to break passes up, baiting at times. Also good when asked to man up on slots, breaks on the ball well. Several times he was in a position to make in INT, but a teammate batted the ball down at the LOS. Elite coverage ability. I don't like his tackling ability all that much, especially when asked to come downhill in the run game. He missed tackles there consistently. He's not always in a great position to make a big difference there because of the role he plays, but even when he is I don't see him being a plus run defender. His angles can get sloppy. This is inconsistent, because he does well at times. He almost looks to be a bit shy to contact sometimes, other times he makes a nice hit. Maybe he's just not quite comfortable with that yet. He's a good blitzer, timing is good and angles are good on blitzes. Showed a lot of growth over course of the year.

Jamal Adams, SS, LSU:

I watched Texas A&M, Alabama, Wisconsin, Auburn and Mississippi State. Plays a lot of roles, deep middle, in the box, man coverage on slot, flats. Excels coming down on run plays and short passes. He's elite at this. Doesn't let up when tackling, violent tackler. Runs through blockers as if they are ball carriers. Multiple times I saw him show disappointed body language when he didn't have the opportunity to hit people. Very hyped in game, a lot of energy. Expects a lot of himself, if he screws up he points to his chest and acknowledges it right away. Great special teams player. Appears to be a leader, as he communicates and moves guys in the secondary. Appears to be able to play man in the slot, but I didn't see him having to do it often or for very long when he did do it. He blew a few coverages from that spot, but wasn't about ability, more about misreading the play. Didn't see him in downfield coverage much, so it's difficult to say how good he is there. He does it, he just wasn't tested a lot from what I saw.

I'll watch others as I get some time.
 
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Malik Hooker is undergoing labrum and hernia surgeries and will be out 4-6 months, he was slated to be a top ten pick, not sure how much that will hurt his stock. Both of these guys will probably long gone @25 unless something negative comes out, Adams might be the pick of the 2 in the long run.
 
I'm starting to reconsider my attitude about drafting a DB back in this Draft with our first round pick, especially if we are unable to resign AJ Bouye in the upcoming FA period.
What we need most of all after a capable starting QB is a OT, if not 2 of them. But as weak as this Draft appears to be in offensive tackles, on the other extreme it may be just as strong in Dbacks and especially corners. For whatever these mocks are worth, it's not unusual to find a mock which has 10 or more DBs in the first round but only a couple OTs.
So most agree the strategy should be BPA for a high Draft pick which would certainly be the top ten and top half of the first round so one might argue that #25 overall is kinda in a grey area giving the Texans more flexibility.
 
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IDEXAN said:
I'm starting to reconsider my attitude about drafting a DB back in this Draft with our first round pick, especially if we are unable to resign AJ Bouye in the upcoming FA period.
What we need most of all after a capable starting QB is a OT, if not 2 of them. But as weak as this Draft appears to be in offensive tackles, on the other extreme it may be just as strong in Dbacks and especially corners. For whatever these mocks are worth, it's not unusual to find a mock which has 10 or more DBs in the first round but only a couple OTs.
So most agree the strategy should be BPA for a high Draft pick which would certainly be the top ten and top half of the first round so one might argue that #25 overall is kinda in a grey area giving the Texans more flexibility.
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Another way to look at it is that being that the draft is deep in CB, some good cbs will be available in the 2nd. Also since RT is a big gaping hole, it is imperative to sign someone who you can fell comfortable with starting, that way you can go BPA without blinking, this draft seems to be somewhat deep with mid 1st round guys, you want to have complete flexibility to grab a pass rusher, OT, cb , s, Rb , TE, DE, DT, QB, WR, DT,ILB whatever if one of those guys falls.


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I'm a big believer in BPA, regardless of need. But I really hope we aren't drafting any DBs in the first 3 rounds!


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dream_team said:
I'm a big believer in BPA, regardless of need. But I really hope we aren't drafting any DBs in the first 3 rounds!
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I'm in the opposite corner on this issue, I'd have no trouble taking a CB in the 1st round. QB is our biggest need but it's doubtful there's anyone available or worthy of our #25 pick. OT is the next biggest need but the position lacks top level talent but is deep in good/decent talent, thus someone should be available in the 2nd round. We might lose Bouye to FA, and JJo to salary cap casualty, thus CB could go from a team strength now to a major team weakness real quick with those 2 losses. Teams need 3 quality CB's and it's one of the hardest positions to find quality talent. This draft is good in quality CB's and a team can never have to many good CB's. With the Texans having so many needs, we really can go BPA at a position of need (ILB,CB,Safety,TE,OT,QB,OLB,etc...) in the 1st.
 
Wolf6151 said:
I'm in the opposite corner on this issue, I'd have no trouble taking a CB in the 1st round. QB is our biggest need but it's doubtful there's anyone available or worthy of our #25 pick. OT is the next biggest need but the position lacks top level talent but is deep in good/decent talent, thus someone should be available in the 2nd round. We might lose Bouye to FA, and JJo to salary cap casualty, thus CB could go from a team strength now to a major team weakness real quick with those 2 losses. Teams need 3 quality CB's and it's one of the hardest positions to find quality talent. This draft is good in quality CB's and a team can never have to many good CB's. With the Texans having so many needs, we really can go BPA at a position of need (ILB,CB,Safety,TE,OT,QB,OLB,etc...) in the 1st.
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We will either keep JJo or resign Bouye, I'd be very surprised to see us cut JJo after not resigning Bouye.
 
jradMIT said:
Another way to look at it is that being that the draft is deep in CB, some good cbs will be available in the 2nd. Also since RT is a big gaping hole, it is imperative to sign someone who you can fell comfortable with starting, that way you can go BPA without blinking, this draft seems to be somewhat deep with mid 1st round guys, you want to have complete flexibility to grab a pass rusher, OT, cb , s, Rb , TE, DE, DT, QB, WR, DT,ILB whatever if one of those guys falls.


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But if a team drafts an OT in the first round who's only got a second or third round grade then that's a clear example of reaching to fill a need which is exactly what gets a team in trouble over the long run with inferior talent.
 
Wolf6151 said:
I'm in the opposite corner on this issue, I'd have no trouble taking a CB in the 1st round. QB is our biggest need but it's doubtful there's anyone available or worthy of our #25 pick. OT is the next biggest need but the position lacks top level talent but is deep in good/decent talent, thus someone should be available in the 2nd round. We might lose Bouye to FA, and JJo to salary cap casualty, thus CB could go from a team strength now to a major team weakness real quick with those 2 losses. Teams need 3 quality CB's and it's one of the hardest positions to find quality talent. This draft is good in quality CB's and a team can never have to many good CB's. With the Texans having so many needs, we really can go BPA at a position of need (ILB,CB,Safety,TE,OT,QB,OLB,etc...) in the 1st.
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I'm hoping we don't draft DB. Part of that hope is we retain both Bouye & JJo. I think it would be idiotic of the FO to cut JJo if we don't resign Bouye.
 
dream_team said:
I'm hoping we don't draft DB. Part of that hope is we retain both Bouye & JJo. I think it would be idiotic of the FO to cut JJo if we don't resign Bouye.
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There is a decent class of FA corners too, so it's possible that Bouye walks, they sign one of those other guys and cut JJo, also you have to throw a FA OT signing in the mix which could precipitate a JJo cutting as well.


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dream_team said:
I'm hoping we don't draft DB. Part of that hope is we retain both Bouye & JJo. I think it would be idiotic of the FO to cut JJo if we don't resign Bouye.
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Agreed, I'd love to see both retained, but money is always an issue for all teams. I think this years FA signing period will be very important to our draft with respect to the CB and ILB positions. Cushing could also be a cap casualty situation.
 
Marcus Maye, FS, Florida

I think he's high in some draft boards due to athleticism. He played on an excellent defense and wasn't tested in stressful situations often. He can get caught up with blockers frequently. While he has good range in pursuit, he often takes poor angles, overpursues, and/or doesn't finish the tackle. This is actually a big problem when watching him. He will give up big plays in the run game in the NFL if he doesn't improve there. Shows good coverage ability when he reads the play correctly. I don't think his play recognition is all that good, but he covers well if he reads it properly. Didn't play teams with good passing offenses, or good offenses in general, so he didn't have to do a lot. Looks like a mid round draft pick IMO.

Justin Evans, SS, TA&M

Watched LSU, UCLA. Obviously, athletically gifted. Good kick returner. Plays deep and in the slot, also down in the box. Not a great tackler, fails to wrap up often. I'd venture to say that he gives up extra yards or misses the tackle most of the time. Gave up on tackles at times. His angles are spotty. Makes big hits when coming down on short routes, but I'm not sure his frame is meant for this. This guy just isn't a good tackler at all, disappointing. Against LSU, he gets injured making a big hit on a short route, which looks like a routine play. Does well in coverage against the flats. Really, this is where he is best, in underneath coverage. Looks more like a nickel back or a cover 2 corner than a safety. Even then, he's not great at it. Didn't get a chance to see him in a lot of deep coverage, but he screwed up a few of those opportunities. Completely whiffed on a relatively easy deep pass his way, with underneath help, against UCLA. 3 INTs I saw: Hail Mary, tipped pass, was covering nobody and QB threw it right to him. The most overrated safety I have watched yet. I was planning on watching more, but I think I saw enough. Wouldn't draft him maybe at all to play safety. Might look at him at nickel, but that's 4th round and lower.
 
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IDEXAN said:
But if a team drafts an OT in the first round who's only got a second or third round grade then that's a clear example of reaching to fill a need which is exactly what gets a team in trouble over the long run with inferior talent.
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This is so simple.

I've got 3 OT's rated in the 1st rd. If one of them fall do you draft a QB like Mahomes and pass on the OT? I think I pick Mahomes and trade back into the 1st rd for the OT. If I have a 3 player draft but find my QB/LT of the future then I've had a very successful draft.

The McNair's have never done this before and probably wont do it again this yr due to $$$$.
 
Got any thoughts on Buddah Baker, Marcus Williams, and or Desmond King? I'm trying to find some time to look at these guys. This is suppose to be one of the deepest Safety classes in a long time.
 
A guy I really like at S in the 4th/5th rd range is Nate Gerry. I watched him in parts of the Wyoming/Oregon/Indiana/Wisconscin/Ohio St./Iowa games. Gerry is a big, fast athletic S who is very instinctive. He misses tackles sometimes trying to go for the knockout hit. Big enough to be the hybrid type S that RAC likes to use in the box or covering RB's/TE's in short area spaces.

Love Gerry's competitiveness and think his best football is ahead of him. Should test very well at combine if he gets an invite. Team capitan, who got suspended for bowl game for not going to class. Started for 3 yrs and played in every game his freshman yr. This guy is a real sleeper.
 
Marcus Williams, S, Utah

I could only find the Arizona State game in 2016, in which he had just come back from injury, and the 2015 bowl game vs BYU. Small sample size.

Not a guy who flings his body at ball carriers trying to make a big hit. Disciplined tackler in that he runs to fill an alley and then breaks down in order to secure the tackler. He doesn't miss a lot of tackles due to this. I like that a lot. Showed a few missed angles, a few times on WR screens and then backside on a play opposite field, he took a poor angle that resulted in a TD. Overall, though, he's good at playing the short stuff from a tackling perspective. Good at positioning his body in coverage so as to be in position to make a play. He had a high point issue vs BYU where he just totally misjudged the ball and let the WR catch it. He did well in coverage overall outside of that and another play vs BYU where he had to switch WRs and play man. He was recovering and mildly interfered. Good in coverage dispite that. He shows good, maybe great range. He plays mostly centerfield, but did see him play some man. He's got good length. Didn't see him play a lot around LOS. His strengths seem to be his range, his body positioning, and his no risk style of tackling. Again, very small sample size, so I'm unsure where to place him.

Budda Baker, S, Washington

Watched USC, Colorado, Stanford, Arizona State, and Arizona.

Plays a ton in the slot, both man and zone, also blitzes from this position. He's a great blitzer off the edge, because of how quickly he can burst into the backfield, but not very good up the middle. He will test very well, and has excellent burst (broad jump). Very fast in coming down against the run or short pass and tackles well. He can get lost in run support a bit. Handles blockers well at times when in the slot by extending his arms with a two hand punch, which is important given he's playing slot mostly and he's on the WR quickly, but it's not consistent. Can get pushed around a little when the blocker has some momentum, this is probably his biggest weak point. More of a lunging type tackler and does miss tackles due to the style, but not all that often. Great on special teams, as you would expect. He's not tested often in coverage. I can't really see how tight his downfield coverage is when the ball isn't going to him, as I don't have an all-22. Played good coverage, but got outjumped against Stanford on a 15-20 yard TD. Other times I've seen him in downfield man coverage, he's is absolutely on top of his guy. I only saw him get beat in coverage three times in 5 games. One was the Stanford play, another was an out route vs Arizona where he was there, just couldn't break it up, it was a good throw, and another vs Arizona where it was a missed tackle on a sack and the Arizona QB rolled out and threw it just as he was along the sideline, about to run out of bounds. On this play, Baker was recovering toward the receiver downfield and got there, but the ball was just slightly over his reach and went over his head. He's excellent on short coverage, crazy good, best I've seen all year. His man coverage is elite. He plays 1-3 yards off the LOS in that slot role. He plays at traditional safety depth sometimes, it's dependent on formation and opponent. This becomes more apparent vs Stanford, where he plays more of a traditional safety depth, whereas he played almost exclusively down in the slot with a single high safety vs USC, Colorado, and Arizona State. Played some single high and traditional depth vs Arizona. He showed the ability to play deep coverage both in a traditional safety depth and as a single high, broke up several plays. He's got good range from that spot. Plays in a very well coached defense.

Overall, Baker is a well rounded player, but he is absolutely elite in a modern SS role where he can get down and play close to the LOS in the slot. He damn near eliminates crossing patterns and he has elite ability to jump routes and play man coverage. His ability to burst is incredible and he can do it just moments after changing directions. His weakness is run support at times and getting off blockers at times. He's not bad at it, in fact he's good at it at times, he's just inconsistent. I would absolutely draft him in the first round given that unique coverage ability.
 
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TexansSeminole said:
Marcus Williams, S, Utah

I could only find the Arizona State game in 2916, in which he had just come back from injury, and the 2015 bowl game vs BYU. Small sample size.

Not a guy who flings his body at ball carriers trying to make a big hit. Disciplined tackler in that he run to fill an alley and then breaks down in order to secure the tackler. He doesn't miss a lot of tackles due to this. I like that a lot. Showed a few missed angles, a few times on WR screens and then backside on a play opposite field, he took a poor angle that resulted in a TD. Overall, though, he's good at playing the short stuff from a tackling perspective. Good at positioning his body in coverage so as to be in position to make a play. He had a high point issue vs BYU where he just totally misjudged the ball and let the WR catch it. He did well in coverage overall outside of that and another play vs BYU where he had to switch WRs and play man. He was recovering and mildly interfered. Good in coverage dispite that. He shows good, maybe great range. He plays mostly centerfield, but did see him play some man. Didn't see him play a lot around LOS. His strengths seem to be his range, his body positioning, and his no risk style of tackling. Again, very small sample size, so I'm unsure where to place him.

Budda Baker, S, Washington

Watched USC, Colorado, Stanford, Arizona State, and Arizona.

Plays a ton in the slot, both man and zone, also blitzes from this position. He's a great blitzer off the edge, because of how quickly he can burst into the backfield, but not very good up the middle. He will test very well, and has excellent burst (broad jump). Very fast in coming down against the run or short pass and tackles well. He can get lost in run support a bit. Handles blockers well at times when in the slot by extending his arms with a two hand punch, which is important given he's playing slot mostly and he's on the WR quickly, but it's not consistent. Can get pushed around a little when the blocker has some momentum, this is probably his biggest weak point. More of a lunging type tackler and does miss tackles due to the style, but not all that often. Great on special teams, as you would expect. He's not tested often in coverage. I can't really see how tight his downfield coverage is when the ball isn't going to him, as I don't have an all-22. Played good coverage, but got outjumped against Stanford on a 15-20 yard TD. Other times I've seen him in downfield man coverage, he's is absolutely on top of his guy. I only saw him get beat in coverage three times in 5 games. One was the Stanford play, another was an out route vs Arizona where he was there, just couldn't break it up, it was a good throw, and another vs Arizona where it was a missed tackle on a sack and the Arizona QB rolled out and threw it just as he was along the sideline, about to run out of bounds. On this play, Baker was recovering toward the receiver downfield and got there, but the ball was just slightly over his reach and went over his head. He's excellent on short coverage, crazy good, best I've seen all year. His man coverage is elite. He plays 1-3 yards off the LOS in that slot role. He plays at traditional safety depth sometimes, it's dependent on formation and opponent. This becomes more apparent vs Stanford, where he plays more of a traditional safety depth, whereas he played almost exclusively down in the slot with a single high safety vs USC, Colorado, and Arizona State. Played some single high and traditional depth vs Arizona. He showed the ability to play deep coverage both in a traditional safety depth and as a single high, broke up several plays. He's got good range from that spot. Plays in a very well coached defense.

Overall, Baker is a well rounded player, but he is absolutely elite in a modern SS role where he can get down and play close to the LOS in the slot. He damn near eliminates crossing patterns and he has elite ability to jump routes and play man coverage. His ability to burst is incredible and he can do it just moments after changing directions. His weakness is run support at times and getting off blockers at times. He's not bad at it, in fact he's good at it at times, he's just inconsistent. I would absolutely draft him in the first round given that unique coverage ability.
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Great Analysis, Baker is the real deal the best comp I've seen put on him is Bob Sanders. There isn't much in his play that gives doubt, however, I think his size and specifically his weight is what will cause him to drop on some team's boards. There is a kind of rule of thumb for scouting NFL Safeties that puts a line at 200 pounds, Baker falls below so it will hurt his stock with some teams, it will be interesting to see how much.
 
jradMIT said:
Great Analysis, Baker is the real deal the best comp I've seen put on him is Bob Sanders. There isn't much in his play that gives doubt, however, I think his size and specifically his weight is what will cause him to drop on some team's boards. There is a kind of rule of thumb for scouting NFL Safeties that puts a line at 200 pounds, Baker falls below so it will hurt his stock with some teams, it will be interesting to see how much.
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That's an interesting comparison.

I'd compare him more to Earl Thomas when Thomas was at Texas. Thomas was much like Baker in that he was very versatile and good in all kinds of different coverage situations. He played quite a bit of corner, like Baker. Baker has similar size to Thomas at that time. They both played extremely fast to the ball and showed great burst in college, both lungers as tacklers. Both had the same type of weaknesses in regards to tackling and getting off blocks, occasionally struggling against bigger players. Interestingly, Thomas has gone on to become an elite center fielder, even though he played a great deal of corner in college, so the comparison is more Thomas in college rather than Thomas as a pro. Baker is better than Thomas was in man, and probably was worse as a center fielder zone guy so I guess that makes some sense.

I think if Baker can bulk up a bit, like Thomas has, you can pretty much play him however you want, mold him however you want, which is a huge asset IMO.
 
Washington CB Sidney Jones carted off field at his pro day with a left leg injury

*update*

Torn achilles. He was projected to be a first round pick. Where does he fall now?
 
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CBS has four safeties going in the first round. Two in the top 10.

  • 3) Jamal Adams
  • 7) Malik Hooked
  • 22) Jabril Peppers
  • 30) Obi Melifonwu

That look right to you?
 
Agree completely with the top 3, then I'd take Marcus Wiliams, Budda Baker or Justin Evans before Melinfonwu.
 
I am somewhat in the same camp. Melifonwu has elite measurables but lacks the instincts of the other safeties, I'm not so sure you can teach those. Instincts and ball skills matter much more at safety.
 
jradMIT said:
I am somewhat in the same camp. Melifonwu has elite measurables but lacks the instincts of the other safeties, I'm not so sure you can teach those. Instincts and ball skills matter much more at safety.
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Love this guy.

Also like Baker/Williams

2 different kinds of safety.

Wouldn't draft Evans before late 3rd. Tell me what he's great at, or even really good at?
 
Mollywhopper said:
Athleticism/twitch, physicality, versatility to play with range or close spaces immediately, kick returns.
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Not very instinctive, not a good tackler for the last line of defense. Goes for the knockout hit and sometimes misses tackles because of it. Do you think these things can be improved upon with better coaching?
 
steelbtexan said:
Not very instinctive, not a good tackler for the last line of defense. Goes for the knockout hit and sometimes misses tackles because of it. Do you think these things can be improved upon with better coaching?
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I think he's more instinctive than you're giving him credit for. He rarely takes a bad line and seems to often be on top of plays just as they happen.

As for coaching/corralling his aggressiveness and his breaking down in tackling, yes. I mean, I can't be 100% sure he'll improve, but these are improvable traits and he seems like a kid that would take to the right coaching. And I like RAC/Vrabel for just such a job.
 
Fabian Moreau has a torn pectoral out 4-6 months, draft stock takes a hit per rotoworld

Fabian Moreau - DB - Bruins
UCLA CB Fabian Moreau underwent successful surgery Wednesday night to repair a torn pectoral muscle.

The injury Moreau suffered during his pro-day bench press turned out to be more significant than at first thought. UCLA HC Jim Mora had something to do with that, downplaying the injury on Tuesday as "minor and nothing to worry about." Moreau, formerly moving into Round 1 territory, now faces a recovery timeline of 4-6 months (which translates to something like mid-July to late-September). It's a devastating turn of events for Moreau (6-foot, 206 pounds), who was coming off a dominant NFL Combine that included a 4.35 40-yard dash (No. 2 among CBs).

If he is there in the 3rd is that where the value comes in? He could possibly end up on the PUP list.
 
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